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archonhades
08-12-2013, 08:03 AM
Why?

SB control (sapphire/blood) is my first attempt to experiment and see the viability of a HEX equivalent of MTG's (magic: the gathering) UB control (blue/black). Sapphire brings a lot of card draw and advantage to stall the early game allowing the inevitability of the Blood cards. This is my first attempt to establish a shell and showcase some of the cards i think are very powerful.

Decklist
http://www.hex-datamine.com/deck.php?did=785

RED -- Cut
GREEN -- Added

I can't find any spoiler tags and I'm loathe to replace the deck-list as that invalidates the comments made before the deck-list was changed.

Troops

SS4
Archmage Wrenlocke X 4
Troop
Human Mage
2 / 2
When you play an action, draw a card. You pay [1] less to play actions, to a minimum of 1.
With Gloves of the archmage this card replaces itself in your hand and turns your actions all into cantrips (draw 1 on cast) This is a very good card.

BB4
Xarlox the Brood Lord X 4
Troop
Vennen Brood Lord
2 / 4
When this troop enters play, you may destroy target troop with cost 3 or less.
Combined with spider spawn chest-plate this becomes an awesome 3 for 1 wrecks the opponents board on turn 4.

S3
Buccaneer X 4
Troop
Human Rogue
2 / 2
When this troop enters play, you may put target troop into its owner's hand. If you do, it gets permanent cost +1.
Ideally this would be a spell, I think this the weakest card in the deck but does give good tempo and a chump blocker so im keeping it for now.

BB4
Vampire King X 2
Troop
Vampire
3 / 3
Flight. When an opposing troop dies, if this troop is in play, transform that troop into a Vampire and put it into play under your control.
Your creature win con, use both its equipment to give the vampires lifedrain and allow him to buyback an action for you. Buyback murder and play for an epic 3 for 1

Actions

B3
Murder X 4
QA
Destroy target troop.
my second favourite 3 word ever, buyback as often as possible and kill all the big nasties while netting extra cards from wrenlocke and/or 2/2 flying life draining vampires.

S3
Countermagic X 4
QA
Interrupt target card. Each card in an opposing zone with the same name as that card gets permanent cost +[2]
What? I can get a hard counter which acts as a tempo play twice over and can be played for free if i have Antimagic helm? This card is great, buyback often and be miserly with those sapphires and never fear to tap out.

S3
Time Ripple X 4
QA
Put target card in its owners hand and it gets permanent cost +1.
Tempo play synergies with the wrenlocke and king. depending on matchups may be replaced with bucaneer for the 2/2 body. but i think maindeck must be timeripples as they are more versatile timing wise.

BBX
Life Siphon X 2
BA
Deal X damage to target champion and gain X health.
Straight up dmg and lifegain I think terrible transfer may be better especially considering Transfer has a better synergy with pact of pain

BB5
Extinction X 4
BA
Destroy all troops.
my third favourite 3 words. use to reset the board whenever the aggro player starts getting frisky. there is acase for using the equipment to net you 2 life per troop but i went for the zombie plague acceleration instead

Constants

BB2
Zombie Plague X 3
Constant
At the start of your turn, add a plague counter to this constant. Then, reveal a random troop from each opposing champion's deck for each plague counter on this constant. Those troops get permanent -1 [ATK] / -1 [DEF]. If a troop's [DEF] is reduced to 0 this way, revert it, transform it into a Zombie, and put it into play under your control.
Looks powerful, but i have no idea. Definitely an aggro specific card you need them to have a high density of 1-2 toughness troops, but in multiples and with a long game gcould be great. Equipped the boots to give a plague counter every time a zombie comes under your control.

BB2
Pact of Pain X 3
Constant
[2], Pay 2 health: Draw a card.
My favourite 3 words ever. Awesome card draw engine. NOTE: It doesn't exhaust so you could happily pay the 6 life from last turns transfer or life syphon to draw 3 cards.

Resorces
AbandonAllHope pointed out my manabase is a bit loose and i realised i had put blood/sapphire the wrong way round. I did it quickly by gut feel so no doubt there is a better ratio i will attempt to work out more when the actual decklist has settled and i have more info on the costs and when things need to be cast. Heres a hex metric for you:

http://hexmetrics.ni.tl/tools/r/d60x26t10f7a1e1b15s11#results

Thoughts

I think this may be too creature heavy. I really would like to get rid of the bucaneers and find an action that does something similar or another removal spell. Hopefully an action will be revealed which either straight up kills or gives at least -2. Or if the enviroment is swamped with x/1's then maybe atrophy would by good enough. Kill a creature draw 2 is not an unreasonable situation.

Life siphon I think should be replaced with transfer. Thoughts?

Zombie plauge may just be too cutsie and easily disrupted.

I will try to update as the deck progresses.

AbandonAllHope
08-12-2013, 08:34 AM
You can replace Buccaneer with Time Ripple, same effect, quick action, except that you can select a card to be returned to hand rather than a troop. Adds control versus constants and non-troop artifacts. This will also be an action that will be reduced by Archmage and can be cast in opposing players turn.

http://hextcg.gamepedia.com/Time_Ripple

Eierdotter
08-12-2013, 08:43 AM
nice manacurve
you have no early game
only 3+ cards... maybe quite hard to hold something against the opponents early board position.

AbandonAllHope
08-12-2013, 09:13 AM
I think having 12 blue cards and 22 blood cards with 11 blood resource and 15 sapphire resource is more of a crippling factor when it comes down to threshold than the fact than only having 6 cards of 2 resource and the rest 3+ (except countermagic which with 1 sapphire discard could be free). Even when considering the countermagic discard option, I would still try having more blood resources than sapphire resources when looking at the blood distribution.

archonhades
08-12-2013, 09:24 AM
You can replace Buccaneer with Time Ripple, same effect, quick action, except that you can select a card to be returned to hand rather than a troop. Adds control versus constants and non-troop artifacts. This will also be an action that will be reduced by Archmage and can be cast in opposing players turn.

Thank you ill udpate soon. Annoyingly HEX data mine doesn't have the card.


nice manacurve
you have no early game
only 3+ cards... maybe quite hard to hold something against the opponents early board position.

Due to the ambiguous grammar here I'm uncertain if you're poking fun or seriously complementing the mana curve. Due to the nature of the current state of the game all decks are inherently speculative and limited by card choice. I'm not sure what you would want to do to lower the curve. I'm quite clear this is a control deck and as HEX has no early game control plays such as the mtg cards: preordain (card draw+selection for 1 mana), manaleak (2 mana counterspell) and doom blade (2 mana killspell). What we have must suffice. Of course the current build is vulnerable to a fast aggro strategy but it is well accepted that control sacrifices early board position to disrupt the opponents midgame and dominate the endgame. If any of this is unclear, Eierdotter, I can point out some good magic articles on control/aggro theory.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-12-2013, 09:55 AM
That new card "The Ancestor's Chosen" should be a part of the deck. If you're running 4 there's a fair chance you'll get one in your opening hand, and it's a good card to lead out with. Against an aggressive deck you'll be able to trade it with an early troop of the opponents, and against any deck those 2/2 flying draw a card for 1 that it generates are going to be awesome - they're cheap enough that you can play them and leave mana up for control cards like Countermagic and Murder, and they're aggressive enough that even if you just get 2 out you've put the opponent on a 5 turn clock for only 2 mana.

Beyond that... it's hard to rate the deck, because it's PvE. All I can say is that it's not nearly as explosive as other archetypes, and it's very hard to make card choices without knowing all the equipment and seeing what the PvE champs will have on offer.

However, if we look at cards we do know, Thunderbird would be a legitimate wincon in this deck. It's cheap enough that you can play it early (and trade it against an aggressive deck if you need to), and then just beat with it while keeping mana up for control.

archonhades
08-12-2013, 12:48 PM
the deck did have four ancestors chosen until i realised the effect didn't place them onto the battlefield. I can't be certain without playing with them but I'm not convinced the card is actually any good. If played early defensively then its a 1/1 chump for no extra value. if played mid game it'll probably be killed easily and its actual effect doesn't actually do anything to effect the board state. in the late game it provides a kind of inevitability. but then the wincons in the deck already are more reliable and i think better. I would play a 1 mana 2/2/ flyer but i would not spend game time trying to use ancestors chosen to insert them into my deck. this may be wrong but it is usually the case that cards that don't impact the board directly aren't as good as cards that do. which is why im aving such a hard time deciding if zombie plague is playable.

As to thunderbirdit is a good wincon and good early play but i don't think it fits the decks aim. it doesnt really dominate the board until a few turns after its played and can be traded for easily. To play it as a win con would be on turn six after the first extinction at which point i think the other options are more powerful. though you could include it it would turn the deck into more of a midrange deal.

:) yeah definetly hard to rate any deck in given the current information, but fun nonetheless.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-12-2013, 05:50 PM
the deck did have four ancestors chosen until i realised the effect didn't place them onto the battlefield. I can't be certain without playing with them but I'm not convinced the card is actually any good. If played early defensively then its a 1/1 chump for no extra value. if played mid game it'll probably be killed easily and its actual effect doesn't actually do anything to effect the board state. in the late game it provides a kind of inevitability. but then the wincons in the deck already are more reliable and i think better. I would play a 1 mana 2/2/ flyer but i would not spend game time trying to use ancestors chosen to insert them into my deck. this may be wrong but it is usually the case that cards that don't impact the board directly aren't as good as cards that do. which is why im aving such a hard time deciding if zombie plague is playable.

As to thunderbirdit is a good wincon and good early play but i don't think it fits the decks aim. it doesnt really dominate the board until a few turns after its played and can be traded for easily. To play it as a win con would be on turn six after the first extinction at which point i think the other options are more powerful. though you could include it it would turn the deck into more of a midrange deal.

:) yeah definetly hard to rate any deck in given the current information, but fun nonetheless.
You're greatly underestimating Ancestor's Chosen. In the early game, some of the best aggressive drops from ruby and blood (the colors with the most aggressive cheap troops) have 1 toughness, such as Ruby Pyromancer and Blood Harbinger. Being able to trade with these troops rather than take their continuous beatings is a good thing. And it's not a chump block, which is when you throw the troop under another troop it can't kill; it's a trade where you block a troop that's x/1 (ie. Savage Raider, Ruby Pyromancer, Blood Harbinger, Warlock Inquisitor etc). I will take a quick aside from that and say Flock of Seagulls is a good wall for a control deck, so consider that.

Well midgame how many 1 drops actually do anything? :-P At least with Ancestor's Chosen you're creating cards in your deck that will actually do something mid and late game. In terms of being killed easily - no easier than any other troop or 1 drop. You can Burn an Ancestor's Chosen as easily as you can Burn a Shin'hare Militia or Thunderbird.

In the lategame, the wincons are still viable. Drawing a 2/2 flight cantrip for 1? Don't mind if I do. You can do far worse in a turn than paying 1 to get a 2/2 and still getting the card beneath it. At worst it's a free blocker. At best, it wins the game.

The thing you're neglecting is that for a 1 drop, it does impact the board. It's not a constant that sits there unable to trade - against early pressure, you can trade it with an opposing troop. If there's no pressure coming from the opposing side, then each turn it's going to raise the likelihood more and more that you're going to draw the 2/2 from your deck.

Plus, it's a freaking 1 mana troop - it's not supposed to be as 'immediate win' as something like Jadiim or Uruunaz. :-P But compared to other one drops like Rune-Ear Commander, Savage Raider or Kraken Guard Mariner it has a much higher chance of taking a game off its own back. Your deck sorely needs early game so ignoring one of the best 1 drops that has been spoiled is something you do at your own peril.

As for Thunderbird, the thing is, its evasive. There aren't that many troops with flight, and the majority of people won't be playing flying troops. As such, its rage is going to be allowed to build. You don't need to sit back and not play it until after Extinction - you play it on turn 2. You start attacking with it immediately, and then if your opponent overextends to put themselves in the pole position to win the damage race, then you cast Extinction and in all likelihood gain card advantage (card neutrality via Extinction is them having 1 more troop than you, card advantage is them having 2+ more troops than you). And again, as a cheap troop the Thunderbird comes down early, and can trade with those pesky troops of the opponents if they happen to be aggressive. If they're not aggressive then you get to tick up that rage meter without impediment, which is very potent given that you'll have those control cards still in your hand.

But, I must apologise. I keep forgetting that this is a PvE deck, probably because you've built it largely like a PvP deck. :-P Honestly, I wouldn't concern myself too much with non-combo PvE deckbuilding at this point, as champions will likely have a big say in what you build.

Eierdotter
08-13-2013, 02:04 AM
Due to the ambiguous grammar here I'm uncertain if you're poking fun or seriously complementing the mana curve. Due to the nature of the current state of the game all decks are inherently speculative and limited by card choice. I'm not sure what you would want to do to lower the curve. I'm quite clear this is a control deck and as HEX has no early game control plays such as the mtg cards: preordain (card draw+selection for 1 mana), manaleak (2 mana counterspell) and doom blade (2 mana killspell). What we have must suffice. Of course the current build is vulnerable to a fast aggro strategy but it is well accepted that control sacrifices early board position to disrupt the opponents midgame and dominate the endgame. If any of this is unclear, Eierdotter, I can point out some good magic articles on control/aggro theory.

Of course it is ambiguous, but since you have no 1 drop and only zombie plague as a 2 drop. i hought it is obviously not a compliment.
A aggro deck builds board position and damages you in the first 3 turns without resistance.
on your turn 3 you start to trade 1 handcard vs 1 board card of him, while he is able to play several card each turn.
If you somehow manage to not die until you played Extincion yu are most likely very very close to 1 health left, leaving you vulnerable to a little speed troop, or several drops on one turn, that you can not handle at the same time.
BTW: Everytime i look at a deck i instantly imagine how it would/could perform against a fast orc deck.

Against a slow deck (wild big guys for example) this would probably work, but PVP is about speed and early game, which you lack (hopefully there will be some cheap combat tricks released to make the spirit of decks like this competitive)

archonhades
08-13-2013, 06:05 AM
@jaxsonbatemanhex (dont want to requote your whole response)

You make some excellent points and I'm willing to admit It may be wrong. You're right this has been built like a pvp deck. Maybe i should drop the equipment and just restate it in those terms.

I'm willing to say that thunderbird is probably a great card. But if i where to include it i would probably be cutting zombie plagues and going more midrange. At that point i would consider ancestors chosen. I would much rather be drawing my control cards than these 2/2's that turn my deck into a pseudo aggro build. Even if they do cantrip for 1 mana they aren't showing me any more of my deck than if i had just drawn that card instead of them and they are draining mana i could be holding for off-turn murders and counters or pact of paining which does show me more cards I couldn't have seen otherwise.

But perhaps playing them just for the early turn trades as you say is worth the 'disadvantage' of adding 2 2/2's to my deck. I do think AC fits into a very particular sapphire/diamond midrange flyers deck not an SB control list. I suspect play-testing will be the proof.

poizonous
08-14-2013, 06:27 AM
@archon

Those 2/2 creatures for 1 mana you are talking about are great at board presence and a cantrip. What is better drawing a murder by itself when opponent has 3 creatures on the field. Or drawing a 2/2 flyer into a murder. That way you can have an answer to 2 of those 3 creatures. Control has no early game which has been said before which is why Ancestors Chosen is probably a must have in control decks utilizing sapphire currently.

Overall I dont think your deck is creature heavy, rather i think it is creature lacking. There are currently not enough control spells to consider running a control deck with under 15 creatures, unless your running Blood/Diamond (which happens to be my deck)

Also it does not say which champion you are using. I would suggest Bertram Cragraven for the worker bot chump blockers every 3 turns as well.

Pact of Pain just doesnt look like it fits in with this deck. You lack overall life gain to afford paying 2 life when most decks you will face in set 1 are aggro set to smash your face in before you can even draw a card with it. You are running Archmage so switch the Pact of Pains for Oracle Songs. 2 cards for possibly 2 mana(3 at worst) compared to 1 card for 5 mana and 2 life.

Final Suggestion. This deck is screaming for Warlock Inquisitor. You like draw power so what is better than a 3/1 Blocker that can draw you a card every time you play it? Socketed with Sapphire of course. Or you can socket it to deal damage = to its attack for an alt win condition. Every Control deck will run Warlocks.

archonhades
08-14-2013, 09:34 AM
@Poizonous

I agree the current gamut of control cards are lacking. However the idea is to talk about the shell that we can build for control with in the incomplete information and start to get an idea of what it should look like.

I admit I do not like ancestors chosen nor do i think it worth a slot in a control deck. I may just be plain wrong. I really need to get some images into MWS and play some games. What would you cut for AC?

The chump does look atrractive. Also the warriror shield ability looks great for surviving the early turns.

I agree i'm a bit overexcited about Pact of pain. I think maybe 2 and 3 oracle songs.

I don't think the deck need warlock inquisitor its a 1-toughness non-evasive regardless of its recurring ability. I think the deck has better things to do on turns 3 and 5.

@everyone: Please feel free to post in your own decklists for SB-control (please keep to this archetype to keep the discussion focused) Its much nicer to see what cuts and additions people are making and how that changes the deck as well as helping discussion not become too convoluted.