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EntropyBall
08-13-2013, 01:39 PM
Hopefully there will be replays of some sort, to help players analyze what they could have done better.

I think Hex could expand on the basic replay in a unique and novel way by letting the player actually play the replay.
For example, I play a Draft match and lose. After the draft is over, I can load up that replay and go back to any point in the game where I think I maybe made the wrong decision, and try making a different play. The AI would play my opponent's deck and I could see if there was a path to victory.

Maybe I'm trading my troops too early and want to see how the game would play out if I just took some early damage, or attacked with slightly more/less troops, or saved/used some removal. Obviously everyone is going to play better the second time through with some additional knowledge of what is in their opponents hand, but something like this might be a good way for players to figure out what they are doing wrong.

heavyhitter86
08-13-2013, 02:06 PM
Good idea

keldrin
08-13-2013, 02:06 PM
Hex TCG kickstarter stretch goal 1.06 Million was playback support.

That's when we got our Million Dollar sleeves :D

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-13-2013, 02:09 PM
Haha, I had a very similar idea in the phantom mode thread. :-P

Kates
08-13-2013, 02:13 PM
While I don't think it's a bad idea, I wonder if when thought out it would be entirely useful. Sure, it would be nice perhaps even useful to replay a match or part of a match. You could, however, only be replaying to a limited extent. Say you choose to attack with a different troop on your ith turn. On the jth turn you're not really replaying anything; you're playing a new game. I don't mean for this to sound like something out of Back to the Future. It's just that if you're changing a point at the beginning of the game you could potentially be changing the trajectory of the game. You wouldn't really know, "What if I had only done blank". It seems like it would be a lot of work to implement with not all that much pay off. You could always try a rematch! :)

keldrin
08-13-2013, 02:23 PM
While I don't think it's a bad idea, I wonder if when thought out it would be entirely useful. Sure, it would be nice perhaps even useful to replay a match or part of a match. You could, however, only be replaying to a limited extent. Say you choose to attack with a different troop on your ith turn. On the jth turn you're not really replaying anything; you're playing a new game. I don't mean for this to sound like something out of Back to the Future. It's just that if you're changing a point at the beginning of the game you could potentially be changing the trajectory of the game. You wouldn't really know, "What if I had only done blank". It seems like it would be a lot of work to implement with not all that much pay off. You could always try a rematch! :)

This is a good point actually.
In chess, you would use a database, of a couple of million games, and you could then look at the most common continuations from there. Including if the move you changed to, tended to a larger win percentage.

The problem with playback review, is in review, you have a pretty good idea what the opponent has and is planning. You could go back and change plays, with the concept of stopping your opponent. But, in doing so, would changing your play strategy in a similar situation be better overall for you game? Or in just this isolated situation.
I still think it is useful. I would review, and try and see, was there something I missed early on, that should have warned me about what was coming. And, of course, pear review might be nice, if someone was willing to do that for you.
I do think, maybe reviewing games against deck types you have trouble with, might help you decide how to make changes in your deck to deal with these troublesome decks. Maybe something to change in your deck side bar.

Gwaer
08-13-2013, 02:56 PM
You could always just keep the draws identical, and have the ai play the same "game" against you and see if there was a more optimal outcome.

MoikPEI
08-13-2013, 03:21 PM
I think I saw somewhere that there will be a sort of pause/save/suspend match function for solo PvE. If that's the case, you would just need more of those saved states. If they let the player save the states locally, and play them while offline, it gives us something to do while the servers are down for maintenance!

Gwaer
08-13-2013, 03:40 PM
There won't be any offline play at all, or "save states" really. Just resuming games from their servers. They've been very adamant about not storing anything locally.

keldrin
08-14-2013, 06:16 AM
yeah, but there needs to be a offline deck building.
You know, something to do while waiting at the dentists office.
Ignoring your political science class.
Or sitting through defensive driving.

Kamino72
08-14-2013, 07:37 AM
In chess, you would use a database, of a couple of million games, and you could then look at the most common continuations from there. Including if the move you changed to, tended to a larger win percentage.
In competitive chess, after the game, it is common to review the game with your opponent and explore different lines. It's a nice learning process.

But chess is a game with perfect information. No luck, no bluff.

The problem to replay a hex game from a choosen point is you could be not allowed to access to the opponent's datas (deck and hand).

Xenavire
08-14-2013, 07:59 AM
This just feels like 'shoulda, woulda, coulda', which is probably not healthy when trying to learn from your mistakes.

Watching a replay is fine, but tinkering with a replay is counter productive - you would learn bad habits rather than good ones. Having gone through that phase in multiple TCG's, analysing my options to see what could have changed had mixed effects - sometimes I would see a good play, and remember it, and other times I would imagine a perfect play - and in practice, those tend to fall apart, because you become too focused on that particular outcome.

The replay is already good enough in my eyes, seeing the mistake is generally better than trying to fix it in a TCG - trying to fix a hypothetical often leads to more losses. You just need to be flexible.

Connected
08-14-2013, 12:52 PM
Watching a replay is fine, but tinkering with a replay is counter productive - you would learn bad habits rather than good ones. Having gone through that phase in multiple TCG's, analysing my options to see what could have changed had mixed effects - sometimes I would see a good play, and remember it, and other times I would imagine a perfect play - and in practice, those tend to fall apart, because you become too focused on that particular outcome.
It doesn't appear you are honestly trying to suggest that we not learn from our mistakes so it doesn't stand to reason that you imagining a perfect play and then going after it and realizing it didn't work isn't "good". You learned and that is the entire point. If you had simply let it go then where would you be? Sure, you'd learn again after starting over a new match... but the idea here is to essentially take a save-state and then make it live. I'm imagining from a back-end perspective this is something that may be doable but it's going to take a unique project with dedicated resources and won't likely come online for another year or so.


The replay is already good enough in my eyes, seeing the mistake is generally better than trying to fix it in a TCG - trying to fix a hypothetical often leads to more losses. You just need to be flexible.
Those losses translate into wins. One cannot learn how to be the best without having failed somewhere in the process. Getting good takes dedication and a willingness to look past failure to success.

Shadowelf
08-14-2013, 02:03 PM
Hopefully there will be replays of some sort, to help players analyze what they could have done better.

I think Hex could expand on the basic replay in a unique and novel way by letting the player actually play the replay.
For example, I play a Draft match and lose. After the draft is over, I can load up that replay and go back to any point in the game where I think I maybe made the wrong decision, and try making a different play. The AI would play my opponent's deck and I could see if there was a path to victory.

Maybe I'm trading my troops too early and want to see how the game would play out if I just took some early damage, or attacked with slightly more/less troops, or saved/used some removal. Obviously everyone is going to play better the second time through with some additional knowledge of what is in their opponents hand, but something like this might be a good way for players to figure out what they are doing wrong.

Usually replaying is enough to figure out what went wrong to your strategy; did you overextend into a mass removal? did playing around a counterspell, that wasn't really there, slowed you down into losing ? Did you use your removal too early and lost to a powerful creature? did you misjudged your opponent's strategy and used your discard on a blank card ? You don't really need a play option to figure the answers to these questions...

And yes there will be a replay option (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=6)

Xenavire
08-15-2013, 05:51 AM
It doesn't appear you are honestly trying to suggest that we not learn from our mistakes so it doesn't stand to reason that you imagining a perfect play and then going after it and realizing it didn't work isn't "good". You learned and that is the entire point. If you had simply let it go then where would you be? Sure, you'd learn again after starting over a new match... but the idea here is to essentially take a save-state and then make it live. I'm imagining from a back-end perspective this is something that may be doable but it's going to take a unique project with dedicated resources and won't likely come online for another year or so.


Those losses translate into wins. One cannot learn how to be the best without having failed somewhere in the process. Getting good takes dedication and a willingness to look past failure to success.

You would learn eventually, but over analysing has disadvantages too. Being too focused on a particular strategy or opponent will teach you to instinctively act a certain way, which may not actually help in the long run. It could just as easily stunt the learning process.

Besides, how will it help if you just don't have a way to play out of a situation? Will it go so far as to let you mulligan, and play through with a new hand? All that would teach you is that your deck could have answered it, and you were just unlucky - another bad habit. Deck building leaves as little to chance as possible, so assuming every loss is pure luck and not skill is a poor mentality to have.

All I want to point out here is everything you could see in a replay is healthy for learning, while save state playing is not as good in the long run.

Connected
08-15-2013, 01:27 PM
You would learn eventually, but over analysing has disadvantages too. Being too focused on a particular strategy or opponent will teach you to instinctively act a certain way, which may not actually help in the long run. It could just as easily stunt the learning process.
Since this is MMO territory we're speaking about now your response makes sense in a PvP environment where the landscape is variable. Going up against a raid boss in PvE will necessarily require that I focus on a particular strategy or opponent (in this case being an NPC) because that is the only way I *can* win.

I agree against an ever-changing landscape of the PvP meta your strategy will suffice; I argue this is unnecessarily limited in a PvE aspect where the dynamic nature is less of a concern. Interestingly enough you are arguing to let your instincts be your teacher but I do not see that being as necessary in a TCG as it is in an FPS such as Quakelive where muscle memory and twitch skills are required to excel.


Besides, how will it help if you just don't have a way to play out of a situation?
It only takes one ah-ha moment to learn and that is the point. I do not think you are arguing this isn't possible but your perception of learning appears to limit that process to instinctual responses.


Will it go so far as to let you mulligan, and play through with a new hand? All that would teach you is that your deck could have answered it, and you were just unlucky - another bad habit.
Learning is learning, period. I'm not sure where you are going with your subjective analysis about the quality of learning. If you learned you were just unlucky then you can see ways of reducing that unlucky draw, as you mention next. Regardless it advances your deck and your skills and I'm not convinced that it "teaches you" you were only unlucky unless that is the answer you were looking for to begin with, in which case replays aren't going to do much except to reinforce wrong data.


Deck building leaves as little to chance as possible, so assuming every loss is pure luck and not skill is a poor mentality to have.
I agree. These tools aren't built to encourage people to blame luck, they're built to encourage learning. The mentality exists within the individual, not the system itself.


All I want to point out here is everything you could see in a replay is healthy for learning, while save state playing is not as good in the long run.
I agree but for entirely different reasons - namely the infrastructure and security necessary to implement it.

Feegert
08-16-2013, 02:40 PM
You would learn eventually, but over analysing has disadvantages too. Being too focused on a particular strategy or opponent will teach you to instinctively act a certain way, which may not actually help in the long run. It could just as easily stunt the learning process.

Besides, how will it help if you just don't have a way to play out of a situation? Will it go so far as to let you mulligan, and play through with a new hand? All that would teach you is that your deck could have answered it, and you were just unlucky - another bad habit. Deck building leaves as little to chance as possible, so assuming every loss is pure luck and not skill is a poor mentality to have.

All I want to point out here is everything you could see in a replay is healthy for learning, while save state playing is not as good in the long run.

The problem with this reply is that you're assuming everyone who will play Hex has a tainted perception, incapable of extracting useful information without supervision.

Your concern is a valid one, for these things could surely happen. However, do we want Hex to be stripped of innovative features because a portion of the audience does not have the proper mental development to intelligently interpret the game?

What if Bungie said the same thing about theatre mode in Halo 3 and ditched the idea?

"Letting the player be able to watch games they lost would make the player frustrated and not play anymore. All it would teach them is that they make bad decisions and everyone else is better than they are." - You (if you worked for Bungie at the time.)

Long story short, this is a resource/tool for the player. However they decide to interpret the information or use this tool is up to them and we should avoid ditching the idea because some people overanalyze things or feel unlucky.

Personally, I love this idea because it advances the purpose and possibly the future of theatre mode for all games.

Theatre mode currently (to my knowledge) has no dynamic function in any game that has been released. It serves only to replay a past event. But this allows the player to actually re-PLAY the event and make different choices and decisions.

EntropyBall
08-16-2013, 08:02 PM
Personally, I love this idea because it advances the purpose and possibly the future of theatre mode for all games.

Theatre mode currently (to my knowledge) has no dynamic function in any game that has been released. It serves only to replay a past event. But this allows the player to actually re-PLAY the event and make different choices and decisions.

I couldn't think of a game that had done this, so that's why I pitched the idea. But it could be that no one has done it because its a bad idea :-) I think its a neat way to leverage some of Hex's unique strengths, but I'm not even completely sold on how useful it would be (vs just a replay).