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Corpselocker
08-15-2013, 10:17 PM
Hex Community-

tl;dr: Daily log in bonuses detract from and eventually discourage frequent gameplay.

I've been desperately trying to fill my gaming void until Hex comes out. I've gotten my share of freemium games lately. I have found one feature in nearly all of them to be utterly counterproductive. The 'log-in' for an escalating reward.

It is nice that the games want to instill a sense of permanent community. I have found, though, that this obligatory log in keeps me logging in for a week or so just to capture the reward. It does make me log in but almost never logging in because I want to play. It makes me not want to play until I get the next or final reward. If I miss one day's log in reward after weeks of grabbing them, I quit because I've felt that I've lost the chain to better rewards. If I log in on a day I don't have time to play, it feels like a chore or punishment. It so detracts from the freemium model because it taunts money savvy players with the allure of getting over on the game. Don't throw rocks, but Eve Online gave me the same feeling. Better to do something productive offline while I log in briefly to collect awards/ skills.

I don't have any data to back up my gut feelings. Possibly it comes from some of my managerial experience (MA in Management, Emergency Manager for fifteen years). The reward inspires people to not play. I would suspect that lesser games want you to not play to for free after a time and this mechanism helps guide people there.

So, I never present a problem without a solution. Ensure that events that draw players in (daily/weekly) create impact. They work on a story line. Accomplishment is achieved. This has to come from something other than 'log-in'. It creates true satisfaction.

I appreciate your time reading this.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-15-2013, 10:37 PM
Hmmmm, I'll fence sit on this one. I've had three negative experiences with the daily stuff, and those are WoW, GW2 and Infinity Wars.

With WoW, on my main character I had a huge amount of dailies to do each day, until I'd achieved all my goals for that char (mostly just hitting exalted with the factions, though a few others). Beyond that, I felt like I had to log onto my appropriate characters each day for their farming goods (easy money, so it'd be a waste not to) plus my monk (the monk daily rewarded a lot of xp for very little work). But even the days I didn't really feel like playing, I felt like I'd regret not doing it. The one upside to WoW was that the rewards didn't snowball; missing it one day didn't impact the next.

With GW2, between 5 characters, 2 easy jumping puzzles I had a ritual with, the daily achievement plus all the world bosses they were strong enough for, there was potentially a lot to do each day. Again, fortunately like WoW there wasn't a punishment for missing a day, but it was draining to think that in order to have an efficient gaming experience you had to do this stuff each day.

Infinity Wars was probably the worst. Each day you could earn a limited amount of points, plus each day you could get a daily win bonus that snowballed, from 100 on the first day up to 500 from the fifth day onwards, plus you could sign up for as many accounts as you want. That lead to the most efficient way to get cards for free being to have quite a few accounts, earning the max points each day. It was a major PITA to spend so long in the game without really playing, and now that I haven't been playing for about 3 weeks I don't miss it at all.

However, a first win of the day bonus of some sort, like gold, a chest, a random card or whatnot? I think that could be good. It wouldn't be as intensive as the WoW or GW2 stuff, and unlike IW you won't be able to have a pseudo-infinite number of accounts due to needing each linked to a separate credit card.

The main thing they'd have to be careful about is not making a player feel like they've missed out on something significant by not logging in for X days. As such, the reward I feel would have to be pretty small, such that a small amount of playing when that person does log on would earn them equivalent value from the game.

Chiany
08-15-2013, 10:55 PM
I agree with Jax on this, I hope CZE doesn't include Daily/Weekly quests (for lack of a better word) that aren't really mandatory, but if you don't do them, you miss out on important usefull stuff.

Only way I can see this working, is if the required actions are things you would do anyway (like play a game).
But then you still "hurt" ppl that don't play every day.

Mr.Funsocks
08-15-2013, 11:15 PM
Cheap tricks to get you to log in make the game feel cheap, and I don't want to keep logging in.

Skirovik
08-15-2013, 11:18 PM
They already have this in the game with the Spectral Gardens.

I don't know if they plan on having more login bonuses, but I know I'm already committed to logging in as close to everyday as I can due to the Gardens.

Kamino72
08-15-2013, 11:25 PM
Daily log-in reward is like to go to work. And I already have a job.

If the game is good, no need for such shenanigans.

Connected
08-15-2013, 11:25 PM
tl;dr: Daily log in bonuses detract from and eventually discourage frequent gameplay.
Thanks for the synopsis.


It is nice that the games want to instill a sense of permanent community. I have found, though, that this obligatory log in keeps me logging in for a week or so just to capture the reward.
End of your post. There's nothing left to say. It worked. It only needs to work well enough for more people to continue to participate than not. You are one that won't do this but many more will.

With regards to your solution:

Aren't the tournaments going to do that?

So let's extrapolate this out to PvE: do we want daily/weekly rewards in PvE content? Isn't running the content enough of a reward? I personally do not like the idea of daily/weekly anything because it doesn't provide me with any incentive to log in. On the contrary I would just play as I wanted to play and forego the rewards because this game isn't 100% of my life nor will it ever be.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-15-2013, 11:47 PM
Actually, Skirovik makes a great point - Spectral Lotus Garden is already enabling daily reward for every King+ KS backer. I hadn't even thought of it, but I guess I'll be logging in to both my accounts every day to get my Lotuses. :-3

Kingrags
08-16-2013, 12:04 AM
I agree it would be good to skip the dailys. I probably wont even bother to log in for my lotus. I'll login when I feel like playing the game.

Please skip the dailys. I could however get behind something like monthlys or ever yearlys... Or maybe not... the would be an incentive to create a bazilon accounts... but it would be cool to have a dungeon that you can only do once a year otherwise...

nicosharp
08-16-2013, 12:17 AM
Obviously this stems from SolForge recently doing this as well....
The problem is that weak-minded gamers are victims to psychological marketing.

To put it simply:
My dog wants a walk every day, and loves a treat afterwards.
Without the treat he still wants a walk every day.
No matter what, if the treat is offered, he will eat it.

If you look at the treat for what it is, you appreciate it. If you are enjoying the walk, the treat may be in the back of your mind, but it is not why you are on the walk.

In otherwords, take the walk and the treat, or pray for another owner that wants to overfeed your az and give you a shorter walk.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 12:18 AM
I probably wont even bother to log in for my lotus.
:-O I'll log in for you if you want, if I can have half the lotuses. :-P They're almost certainly the best PvE card that has yet been spoiled.

Also, Hammer PM'd me and pointed out that for people like me (who are going to have at least 2 accounts thanks to Collector tier), you can trade all your Gardens to your main account, so you still only have to log into one account a day. Thanks Hammer!

Icepick
08-16-2013, 03:27 AM
The big problem with these things are the escalating rewards for every day you log in. If you miss one day for whatever reason, you just get annoyed. You aren't *really* rewarding them for logging in every day, you're punishing them for NOT logging in. Regular daily stuff, where there is no negative for not logging in for a day or a week or whatever is totally fine in my mind.

ossuary
08-16-2013, 04:18 AM
I'm not a fan of this kind of mechanic. In my personal experience, every game I've ever played with this kind of system was using it to cover up inferior quality design. A truly good game doesn't need a carrot/stick combination to get you to play it; you log in because the game itself is compelling.

I have no problem with them incentivising people with small rewards or daily activities that are optional. But I really hope they don't build a lot around it - I expect better of a company like CZE than that. :)

Worst experience with this was Duel of Champions... if you log in for 7 days straight, you get about $0.50 - $0.75 worth of the for-real-money currency (it's random). So it makes you feel like you're gaming the system, but if you miss a day, you feel ripped off. And the server clock is not on any kind of recognizable time (they don't even tell you when the reset time is), so it's really easy to inadvertently miss a day. I think they did this on purpose to make you feel like it would be less hassle to just buy some currency, but it had the exact opposite effect and just enraged people.

Kami
08-16-2013, 04:52 AM
I have mixed opinions on this.

One one hand, I like the fact there's something to look forward to every time you log-in. On the other, it turns something that should be fun into a feeling of obligation (i.e. if I don't log-in, I will lose out on X).

I'd rather see surprise rewards for long-term active accounts than a daily/weekly/etc. reward I think.

Gorgol
08-16-2013, 04:55 AM
Let's punish people because they might not be able to log-in once in a while. Let's make people feel like they're forced to log-in every single day with ramped up rewards for continuous logins. I quit every game that had ramped rewards like that because it is purely punishing. Log-in rewards are good, ramped up ones for consecutive daily log-ins are just dumb. Not to mention with Hex, people could just make a lot of accounts and game the log-in rewards like they do in Infinity Wars.

blakegrandon
08-16-2013, 05:44 AM
+1 for this thread.

I absolutely hate Daily Quests.

Daily log ins I could live with as I will most likely log into hex once a day.

Daily quests are the absolute worst, from the ! marks above "people's" heads(I know, there won't really be "people" persay, but imagine it being even worse with popups notifying you that you haven't played 5 games with X champion today) to the repetitive neverending quests that are rarely changed.

Games like WOW and Rift did NOT need Dailies, in fact dailies were what got me to quit both games because the dailies pretty much taunt you that there is more "to do" than you have time for.

Throwing dailies in our faces is like throwing video ads in our faces before we watch porn, sure we might be able to ignore the video ads, but they're annoying and get in the way of enjoying the product we came to enjoy.

We have a big problem if Hex "requires" dailies in order to enjoy a MMOTCG, the carrot and stick approach of dailies gets old quickly.

I really hate dailies....

EntropyBall
08-16-2013, 05:52 AM
Actually, Skirovik makes a great point - Spectral Lotus Garden is already enabling daily reward for every King+ KS backer. I hadn't even thought of it, but I guess I'll be logging in to both my accounts every day to get my Lotuses. :-3

Same here, therefore I strongly support ridiculous escalating daily bonuses just for logging in. :p

Zoelef
08-16-2013, 06:04 AM
Daily log ins I could live with as I will most likely log into hex once a day.

Daily quests are the absolute worst, from the ! marks above "people's" heads(I know, there won't really be "people" persay, but imagine it being even worse with popups notifying you that you haven't played 5 games with X champion today) to the repetitive neverending quests that are rarely changed.

I'm in strong agreement with the above sentiments.

When Spectral Lotus Garden debuted, at no point did I think it anything sinister but simply a perk for $120+ backers. Frankly, at that level of financial commitment a backer is extremely likely to log in daily for the first few months of HEX.

I wonder if we'll see something similar to League of Legends's "First Win of the Day" bonus. I doubt we'd see something exactly like this as it's from an entirely different, but I'm of two minds here. On one hand, at no point did I ever feel that unfair, forced, or detrimental to the game experience. On the other hand, it's technically a daily quest, and seeing it now through that lens is rather sobering. Alternatively, maybe we'll have rested XP bonuses in PvE, but brainstorming is largely wasted theorizing until we get a glimpse of the overall PvE structure.

For a more relative comparison, MTGO is profitable and doesn't have any generic daily login bonuses; maybe it is that simple after all.

Khazrakh
08-16-2013, 07:06 AM
I absolutely agree with the OP - it's the exact thing that made me stop playing the Might&Magic CCG. I had a really hard week at work, so I only logged in every day to get the next reward step. On friday evening some workmates proposed to have some drinks after work as we really really had earned them. Long story short I got rather drunk and didn't come home until it was saturday. So all these days of logging in when I didn't have time to play at all just where in vain. Needless to say, I didn't start the game once since that day.

zadies
08-16-2013, 07:54 AM
Issues most ppl are describing as detrimental by example are escalating rewards, and are expanding it to cover everything. Unfortunately a larger subset of the population gets hooked on dailies then is bothered by them, and even those they annoy still do them so they do their job.

Hemlock
08-16-2013, 07:58 AM
As long as the rewards don't escalate for every consecutive day, I won't make a fuss. Still, I'd prefer no daily-type-things, or at most, a bonus reward for normal gameplay along the lines of what Jax was suggesting.

vickrpg
08-16-2013, 11:19 AM
Person 1: "I give everyone a free cookie every day!"
Person 2: "Thank's for the cookie, You're awesome!"
Person 3: "Hey, I didn't come here yesterday, so I didn't get a cookie. WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING ME?"

nearlysober
08-16-2013, 11:31 AM
Daily Log-In reward is the lowest form of an incentive, a crutch used by mediocre games to lure players to pay attention.

The daily reward for logging into HEX should be playing an awesome game, nothing else.

keldrin
08-16-2013, 12:00 PM
I'm good with non escalating daily rewards.
I will be logging in every day to collect my lotus. so extra bonus is just a plus.
I lean towards the bonus, being a play bonus, than just a log-in bonus. But I can see the idea, of if you are just logging in to grab a bonus, because you are short on time, the simpler and quicker you can get it, the better.

ConnorJS
08-16-2013, 01:40 PM
There is no question that log in rewards are the worst thing that could happen to this game. This is a game with a free market trade system, injecting unlimited free cards into the game does nothing but devalue every penny we put into the game. It is impossible to prevent exploitation so it out of the question really. On a flash TCG i currently play they give out daily rewards but trading is limited to premium currency, through an AH. No daily log ins!

nicosharp
08-16-2013, 01:48 PM
There is no question that log in rewards are the worst thing that could happen to this game. This is a game with a free market trade system, injecting unlimited free cards into the game does nothing but devalue every penny we put into the game. It is impossible to prevent exploitation so it out of the question really. On a flash TCG i currently play they give out daily rewards but trading is limited to premium currency, through an AH. No daily log ins!
Discouraging free cards in the system discourages free-to-play gamers. If there is 'daily' rewards, and they were PvE cards who does that hurt? The game will be fine regardless of what CZE decides to do with the 'reward' system. Rewards through single-player campaigns make more sense.
...Small kicks on the side for casual gamers with less actual time to play but the ability to log in, will not hurt the economy. It may actually enhance it by increasing the active player pool.

Yoss
08-16-2013, 01:56 PM
I read the first 6 posts only, sorry. I'm tied up in enough other discussions that I do not wish to add this (yet), so I'll just say that I agree with the OP and first 5 responses.

I already have a job, and daily rewards feel like a job. If Hex is good, players will want to play without daily incentives. If Hex is bad, daily incentives won't save it. Therefore, I do not think Hex should have daily rewards. (And so I hope they make the Lotus Garden spawn even when you don't log in that day.)

EDIT:
I've now read up to post 26. It seems that nearly everyone thinks the same: no dailies.

Banquetto
08-16-2013, 02:39 PM
Person 1: "I give everyone a free cookie every day!"
Person 2: "Thank's for the cookie, You're awesome!"
Person 3: "Hey, I didn't come here yesterday, so I didn't get a cookie. WHY ARE YOU PUNISHING ME?"

Most people are complaining about the escalating rewards, which are more like:

Person 4: "Hey, how come you just gave those guys three free cookies each and gave me half a stale one?"
Person 1: "Because they showed up every day last week for multiple free cookies."

nicosharp
08-16-2013, 03:03 PM
Most people are complaining about the escalating rewards, which are more like:

Person 4: "Hey, how come you just gave those guys three free cookies each and gave me half a stale one?"
Person 1: "Because they showed up every day last week for multiple free cookies."

The problem with this thread is the discussion is not specified then.

If the overall goal of this thread is to discuss the toxic nature of escalating rewards, that should be the focal point in the OP.

The generalization of 'daily rewards', is not a bad thing.

If you make any game feel like a grind, what is the point of playing it? This is why as a company, among other-things, Zynga finds themselves failing. People ultimately get tired of running on the hamster wheel.

Free-to-Play and Micro-Transaction gaming is a huge social experiment right now, and while a lot of companies are failing at it, several others are succeeding. Those visibly that are succeeding have products where the gameplay is always enjoyable, and competitive play (for this reference anything against other people) is balanced, for the most part, at every point of a players progression. The last requirement is that competitive play is always available for free, with no advantage going to players that spend money.

Yoss
08-16-2013, 03:30 PM
That last part about spending money probably won't work for a TCG. The best to hope for is that money now can buy the same benefits as all other competitors may have bought before (but perhaps at higher price now due to scarcity).

I'm still hoping that I can log in and get X lotuses from my garden, where X is the number of days since I last picked a lotus. (Note: I'll probably log in multiple times a day if the game is half as good as we expect.)

nicosharp
08-16-2013, 03:38 PM
Maybe I worded the last part wrong...
Basically, you play competitive PvP with a starter deck, against other players with a starter deck for free.

If you custom build a deck, you then are in the same pool with everyone else that has a modified deck of unknown card value, that they think is best, or is within their budget. <-- this is the only scenario where spending changes things, and may be the most sought-after game mode.

If 2 individuals compete in constructed with the same ability to play any cards in the set that they own. There is no additional benefit to them for spending money that gives them an advantage in their games.

Yoss
08-16-2013, 03:43 PM
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

BlackRoger
08-16-2013, 04:12 PM
I have been trying alot of online tcgs the past few weeks

I find that daily login rewards are a fun way to make you feel happy you logged in, and doesn't unbalance anything as long as its something small enough.

As for dailies, you'd be surprised how good they are if the game is actually fun.
Ofc if its like in WoW where you just have to kill 100 mobs in different places it would be boring.
But what about the weekly arena cap in WoW? Capping was fun because the arena was fun.
It gave you a focus and a sense of achievement.
I'm not saying there aren't other ways to give those to the players, but dailies aren't a bad way of doing it.

Gorgol
08-16-2013, 05:19 PM
As for dailies, you'd be surprised how good they are if the game is actually fun.
Ofc if its like in WoW where you just have to kill 100 mobs in different places it would be boring.
But what about the weekly arena cap in WoW? Capping was fun because the arena was fun.
It gave you a focus and a sense of achievement.
I'm not saying there aren't other ways to give those to the players, but dailies aren't a bad way of doing it.
Does not compute... you mention dailies can be fun then go on to give a example of a weekly, where people have 7 24 hour days to complete it as opposed to 1 24 hour day. This is a BIG difference. Weekly things like this I'm sure people have much less of an issue with than dailies, myself included. And it depends on the reward. In that example capping arena only affected your future ability to do arenas and pvp because you get currency for pvp gear. So if I was purely a raider, I'd never need to touch them if I didn't already find that activity fun.

That's the other issue, look at the Argent Tournament dailies for tokens to get the argent tournament mounts. I was a mount collector, but I HATED most of the dailies, specifically the one that sent you sometimes across the entire continent to kiss frogs or free a lady in a lake(if I remember the lake one correctly). It wasn't interesting beyond the first time, it was PURELY TEDIOUS. Because the currency from those dailies was the ONLY way to get the mounts and other items in a reasonable time manner. It was up to 3-4 weeks of doing ALL dailies, everyday, for ONE mount, anyone who wanted them was a slave to tedium for that entire time. In contrast, in Vanilla, there was a reputation called the Timbermaw that gave a trinket that when used would pop out a Timbermaw guy who would heal you or deal damage for 30 seconds. It was also fluff (like mounts) and it also was a tedious task of killing "enemy faction" mobs to the Timbermaw and turn in their associated drops for a quest. To get the trinket from the max level of reputation, you could choose how long it would take you.

If you had a whole weekend, you could do the tedious killing for hours or as short as a few minutes a day. This meant the "total days" of doing the tedious task could be shortened if you have more time, unlike for the Argent Tournament and the dailies, you were forced into NO LESS than those 3-4 weeks. If you were busy for a day or two you could make up the "lost" time with days you had extra time with the Timbermaw Reputation. If you were busy for a day or two trying to do the Argent Tournament dailies, you were PUNISHED by it taking 22-23 minimum days. This is what made me slowly resent dailies with unique currencies for even "fluff" items. The WoW dailies that just gave gold or other items that could be earned in other ways were much, much less of a problem.

Corpselocker
08-16-2013, 06:55 PM
I am glad people brought up the Spectral Lotus Garden. That could become the grindy, "Dear god, I must log in today" moment. Maybe they are collected daily up to X amount. This doesn't mean you can't own infinite amounts, but maybe you can only harvestone weeks worth of bloomed gardens without logging in. Maybe three days. That seems reasonable.

Now, I also will be playing everyday. But I just never want this game that I love create that negative mindset of 'having to log in'.

EntropyBall
08-16-2013, 07:58 PM
I don't really understand the hatred for free daily bonuses. They aren't mandatory, you don't have to log in every day. You don't actually "lose" anything by not logging in. I think economists would say there is an opportunity cost associated with not logging in, but you aren't being punished.
If you hated doing WoW dailies, why did you do them? I understand that they were the only way to get certain things, but people need to step back from games sometimes and look at whether or not they are actually having fun. Is it worth it to do X thing 100 times to get Y reward?

I'm not saying I'm above this, I played through ALL of Fallout 3 even though I stopped having fun about halfway through. The last half was just a horrible achievement grind, and I didn't feel any real sense of "achievement" when I was done. It taught me that I will enjoy games more if I don't pay attention to achievements (and that I hate V.A.T.S).

I think if they want to give people bonuses for playing their game, go for it. It doesn't hurt those that play, and those that aren't playing probably don't care anyway. Given how much focus they have put on making sure this game is accessible to people with RL commitments, I really doubt they would do some sort of perfect attendance award or crazy escalating bonus.

I like "First win of the day" bonuses, for example. They are a nice little boost when I'm playing LoL, but they don't keep me playing LoL when I don't feel like playing. Obviously, I am in the minority here.

Lockon
08-16-2013, 09:16 PM
Good thing someone mentioned LOL, because I was about to bring it up. Just have the first win of the day dole out the reward of two wins, easy, makes people who log in infrequently feel some accomplishment, and isn't that big of deal if you don't log in. Plus, copying the whole, it's based on a 22 hour period, as I think that's one of Riot's better ideas.

Leingod
08-16-2013, 09:57 PM
I'd prefer any daily ideas to be more of a weekly instead, with no escalation. As an example with the lotus garden, it would just spawn 7 lotus cards once a week.

I do think a first game of the day bonus would be fine though. I don't really like tying it to wins because then it can take a long time depending on your games. Also, the reward should be nice but relatively inconsequential on things like balance.

Unhurtable
08-17-2013, 02:26 AM
I don't really understand the hatred for free daily bonuses. They aren't mandatory, you don't have to log in every day. You don't actually "lose" anything by not logging in. I think economists would say there is an opportunity cost associated with not logging in, but you aren't being punished.
If you hated doing WoW dailies, why did you do them? I understand that they were the only way to get certain things, but people need to step back from games sometimes and look at whether or not they are actually having fun. Is it worth it to do X thing 100 times to get Y reward?

I'm not saying I'm above this, I played through ALL of Fallout 3 even though I stopped having fun about halfway through. The last half was just a horrible achievement grind, and I didn't feel any real sense of "achievement" when I was done. It taught me that I will enjoy games more if I don't pay attention to achievements (and that I hate V.A.T.S).

I think if they want to give people bonuses for playing their game, go for it. It doesn't hurt those that play, and those that aren't playing probably don't care anyway. Given how much focus they have put on making sure this game is accessible to people with RL commitments, I really doubt they would do some sort of perfect attendance award or crazy escalating bonus.

I like "First win of the day" bonuses, for example. They are a nice little boost when I'm playing LoL, but they don't keep me playing LoL when I don't feel like playing. Obviously, I am in the minority here.

The problems arent with the fact that they are "daily" but the fact that in many cases you can only do it once, and especially if it is progression-based (like reputation dailies in mmorpgs) then its horrible because you are artificially limiting players by time instead of how well they do things / how much time they are willing to spend.

LoLs First Win of the Day : Good Design
WoWs Daily Reputation Quests : Horrible Design

Mahes
08-17-2013, 05:15 AM
Please do not make this game into Farmville. I want to log onto the game because I enjoy playing it, not because I have to click on something everyday to get an award. The Lotus is enough and does not need to be expanded on.

A person should want to log onto the game, not feel compelled to log onto the game.

keldrin
08-17-2013, 02:13 PM
I understand your point, of not wanting a daily log-in requirement... BUT, I'm leaning towards I would rather them leave as much of the kickstarter stuff alone as, is reasonably possible. Some may not be.
two minutes to log-in and grab my lotus, really isn't going to impact me, or most people, if they actually want their lotus's enough. If you don't actually want your lotus's enough to spend 2 minutes logging in.... Maybe, don't worry about the lotus's?


I'd prefer any daily ideas to be more of a weekly instead, with no escalation. As an example with the lotus garden, it would just spawn 7 lotus cards once a week.

I do think a first game of the day bonus would be fine though. I don't really like tying it to wins because then it can take a long time depending on your games. Also, the reward should be nice but relatively inconsequential on things like balance.

ossuary
08-17-2013, 02:33 PM
I wouldn't expect any of the kickstarter cards to undergo any changes. The lotus garden specifically says when you first log in for the day, not once a day whether you are there or not. That's actually in every owner's interest for it to work that way... if people want to sell their excess lotuses on the AH for some profit, it would seriously devalue your stock if some dude who didn't play for a year logged in and suddenly dumped 300 of them on the AH all at once. It's also in CZE's interest to have the rewards only doled out when you actually log in to claim them as well, which is also why the pro player free weekly drafts don't accumulate. If you don't log in, you don't get your thing. I see no problem with this, or any real, justifiable reason to change it.

OrpheusOverdrive
08-17-2013, 02:51 PM
...snip...
Worst experience with this was Duel of Champions... if you log in for 7 days straight, you get about $0.50 - $0.75 worth of the for-real-money currency (it's random). So it makes you feel like you're gaming the system, but if you miss a day, you feel ripped off. And the server clock is not on any kind of recognizable time (they don't even tell you when the reset time is), so it's really easy to inadvertently miss a day. I think they did this on purpose to make you feel like it would be less hassle to just buy some currency, but it had the exact opposite effect and just enraged people.

The daily reset for that game is 7 pm central standard time which is the same as Guild Wars 2's daily reset. Just for your information.

AbandonAllHope
08-17-2013, 04:25 PM
Nice post. I also hope there will be no dailies.

Banquetto
08-17-2013, 07:44 PM
Free-to-Play and Micro-Transaction gaming is a huge social experiment right now, and while a lot of companies are failing at it, several others are succeeding. Those visibly that are succeeding have products where the gameplay is always enjoyable, and competitive play (for this reference anything against other people) is balanced, for the most part, at every point of a players progression. The last requirement is that competitive play is always available for free, with no advantage going to players that spend money.

This is wandering off the topic of dailies, but I think you need to be absolutely clear that "competitive play is always available for free, with no advantage going to players that spend money" is absolutely NOT what CZE are aspiring to build in Hex.

This is a Trading Card Game, not a F2P MMO or a social experiment of any kind. If you don't spend money on cards, you are NOT going to be able to engage in competitive PvP with no disadvantage. End of story.

nicosharp
08-17-2013, 08:09 PM
This is wandering off the topic of dailies, but I think you need to be absolutely clear that "competitive play is always available for free, with no advantage going to players that spend money" is absolutely NOT what CZE are aspiring to build in Hex.

This is a Trading Card Game, not a F2P MMO or a social experiment of any kind. If you don't spend money on cards, you are NOT going to be able to engage in competitive PvP with no disadvantage. End of story.

It's perspective into the meaning of "competitive advantage". As I mentioned at the top of the last page, once you venture into Competitive Constructed play, you assume the responsibilities of being able to play anything from the available pool to succeed. Being competitive has many different levels though, and outside of constructed play, there are many options to win and succeed without financial backing. If you know what you are playing, and what form of competitive gaming you are jumping into, you know the costs involved.

keldrin
08-17-2013, 08:22 PM
Also, lower budget competitive players, will buy, and trade for one good competitive deck and side bar.
People with more of a budget will likely have multiple different themed competitive decks to choose from.

Yoss
08-17-2013, 09:31 PM
I wouldn't expect any of the kickstarter cards to undergo any changes. The lotus garden specifically says when you first log in for the day, not once a day whether you are there or not. That's actually in every owner's interest for it to work that way... if people want to sell their excess lotuses on the AH for some profit, it would seriously devalue your stock if some dude who didn't play for a year logged in and suddenly dumped 300 of them on the AH all at once. It's also in CZE's interest to have the rewards only doled out when you actually log in to claim them as well, which is also why the pro player free weekly drafts don't accumulate. If you don't log in, you don't get your thing. I see no problem with this, or any real, justifiable reason to change it.
What would be wrong with letting lotus accumulate up to a max of 7 so that as long as you log in at least once a week, you are still optimal? This would prevent your fear of Mr.AFK suddenly having 300 copies, but would mitigate the lameness that is dailies.

Deathfog
08-17-2013, 10:39 PM
Daily log in bonuses, weekly log in bonuses, games/wins per day bonuses are all good in that they keep the player base active and competitive.

Mathaw
08-18-2013, 09:12 AM
Any mechanism that creates a chore is bad IMO. Games should never feel like work.

Easy to mitigate though, the suggestion that the reward be very minor is fine. Ie a daily quest to earn gold.

Mathaw
08-18-2013, 09:13 AM
Daily log in bonuses, weekly log in bonuses, games/wins per day bonuses are all good in that they keep the player base active and competitive.

OPs point was that they DON'T do this though. And anecdotally is agree. It's short term gain, long term annoyance.

Corpselocker
08-20-2013, 09:11 AM
Going to bump this thread one and only one time. It occured over Gencon and I'm sure the devs probably were busy :)

Lafoote
08-20-2013, 08:21 PM
Lotus Garden was an exceptional example. Daily login items seem like an interesting theme to expand upon.

Like the rest of the universe, I abhor escalating daily rewards. A single daily(or weekly) quest might be fun, but is by no means necessary.

Dropbear
08-20-2013, 09:38 PM
Weekly quest is OK. Daily "Log-in" gets to the point of annoyance for some people and can be a turn off.

Svenn
08-21-2013, 07:02 AM
Dailies are the worst thing to come to comes. I REALLY hope that Hex doesn't have any sort of daily stuff like this. They have the same effect on me as the OP... I log in daily to get the reward and log out immediately after, and then I just stop playing because I'm more annoyed with it than anything. It does more to push me away from the game than pull me in.

Vengus
08-21-2013, 07:16 AM
Dailies feel like a chore, and in my opinion games are for entertainment, not work. In regards to daily login rewards I can live with them as long as they don't get better which each day you log in. I don't want to get to the point I get a certain reward for logging in 30 days in a row only to be kicked back to start because I didn't have time to log in on day 31.

Yoss
08-21-2013, 09:03 AM
If playing more is the dailies' goal, then dailies do not accomplish their goal. I will play when I want to play. If I'm "forced" to log in to collect my Loti each day, I will, but it will just be a chore and not make me play more.

Let me collect my Loti when I log in normally (up to a limit of maybe 7 at a time), and please do not add any more dailies!

Deathfog
08-21-2013, 09:36 AM
Stuff that helps keep people involved in the matchmaking aspects of the game being on daily/weekly bonus is good, a bonus for just logging in and checking any news updates not so much.

Double experience, random crafting material, or a few gold for the first win of the day would keep more people actively in the matchmaking queue which makes more a superior competitive experience. Bonuses for PvE, similar to WoW's daily quests would be very easy to do but of lesser importance to the game as its not subscription based.

noragar
08-21-2013, 11:12 AM
I don't think daily rewards are necessary, but don't have a problem if they existed. I don't think they would have much of a long term effect, either positive or negative, on things like tournaments played, boosters bought, hours playing PvE, etc.

As far as the lotuses, I think it's perfectly fine just the way it is, with the same benefits for everyone. However, if they were going to vary the rewards based on frequency of play, then I think the people who play more frequently and consistently should be the ones who get the higher rewards, not the ones who get less. I would think we would want to encourage more frequent and consistent play.

Madican
08-21-2013, 11:55 AM
The biggest issue with daily quests is not when they exist, but when they feel mandatory. This was WoW's fatal flaw; you had to do daily quests to further reputation if you wanted to actually buy anything with what you earned from raiding or dungeons.

Don't have Revered, easily 2-3 weeks of daily quests, then your Valor points are worthless. Oh and there's eight or so of these reputations, each with different slots of items. So yeah, have fun. Oh, and some of those reputations will only be unlocked when you get to Revered with another one. So you don't even get to do them all at once. Nope, enjoy the gating.

This is mostly what burned me out on Mists of Pandaria.

zadies
08-21-2013, 12:06 PM
That is what happens when non-raiders ask for raid level gear it becomes a chore for raiders to get and the ppl who whined about having to raid gear now whine about how long it takes to earn outside of raids.

Norious
08-21-2013, 12:20 PM
A few thoughts on the issue log in rewards - Most of us are going to play the heck out of this game anyway. I do not see a major downside for a login thank you. Rewards do not have to be mega game changing - a crafting component, a small card exp boost to foil status, a promotional sleeve, a gift common card we can send to our friends to invite them to the game perhaps. Escalation rewards are not so attractive, but - what about when the game is 8+ months old after launch? How many sets will have been out by then? Maybe an escalation log in system might work for new players to move a little faster towards veteran play.
Daily quests are grinding, yes, and with games with little content that is why it is there. I do not see HEX needing it, because it seems like content is self generating (tournaments, pvp challenges,etc). And pve is supposed to have a variety of difficulty settings as well.

Madican
08-21-2013, 12:36 PM
That is what happens when non-raiders ask for raid level gear it becomes a chore for raiders to get and the ppl who whined about having to raid gear now whine about how long it takes to earn outside of raids.

No, not really. The system was already in place with Cataclysm that people could earn some epics to fill out their weak spots so they could get into Raid Finder. Actual raiders didn't need the holes at all, other than maybe the trinkets.

The thing people got angry about was spending their time to earn all the Valor points needed for a piece of gear and then be told they can't have the gear they want without spending several weeks doing the same quests every single day. It got better as Mists went on and new reps got introduced, but it was still horrible to start off on.

BeakstarRocks
08-30-2013, 09:55 AM
Personally, I like daily rewards/quests. It could be because I'm more of a casual player. If it's a straight up login reward, I guess it doesn't encourage much beyond logging in, but it's a nice perk each time I sit down to play. I don't feel slighted if I don't get it some days, but it puts me in a good mood when I login. If it's more of quest/"do something" sort of daily reward - I like those too. It provides me with something alternative to do, if it sounds compelling I can do it and get a reward. If not, well, then I can just do something else/play as usual.

I agree that DOC style stacking rewards are irritating though. That "lose everything if you miss a day" style turns me off and the first time I missed one, I didn't come back for over a month (just didn't feel like it). I really like Infinity Wars daily and multiday quests. Again, I don't fell compelled to do them, but just some nice additional options of things to do. IW has quests at times that can encourage you to build a special deck to achieve them ("Assassinate 10 characters"), I find that fun, so I suppose some of the potential could come from how "fresh" or "interesting" you feel the daily stuff is. Solforge dailies aren't too interesting, but they help me build my card base and that, in turn, keeps me interested in trying new decks ("hmmm, ok - I didn't know about this kind of card... what could I combine with that?"). Again, I feel no ill-will if I miss it - if they discontinued dailies, I wouldn't be getting it at all so...

I do understand the concern expressed about it feeling like a "job", despite the fact that it doesn't have this effect on me personally. I think the key to overcoming that issue would be to keep the repeating quests (daily/weekly/whatever) new and interesting. They could also encourage different kinds of playing (win 3 games in a row with 3 different decks, finish a game with *exactly* this score, win a game - dealing the final blow with this card, ...etc).

Blitz1775
08-30-2013, 10:59 AM
Personally I think if they wanted a system like that it would be best to have a "first win of the day system" tied with a weekly style of dailies. The first win of the day would be a nice bonus, but nothing that should make you feel like you have to play the game everyday. While the dailies are something you definitely want to do for the reward, but not some cumbersome as to annoy you.

Rycajo
09-03-2013, 05:33 PM
During the PvE panel (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/) yesterday, Cory brought up a potential "phantom card"/roulette type of login bonus that might possibly find its way into the game at some point. What does everything think of such a system?

I like the idea of finding an item that changes what you might get out of a random roll. However, I'm not so sure such a system wouldn't promote making multiple accounts.

Shadowelf
09-03-2013, 05:47 PM
During the PvE panel (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/) yesterday, Cory brought up a potential "phantom card"/roulette type of login bonus that might possibly find its way into the game at some point. What does everything think of such a system?

I like the idea of finding an item that changes what you might get out of a random roll. However, I'm not so sure such a system wouldn't promote making multiple accounts.

Just to leave some time markers here policy on daily quests 0:37:20, phantom versions of cards 0:39:15 (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/)

Kilo24
09-03-2013, 10:01 PM
The phantom cards sound interesting, but a lot will depend on the particulars. If it's a long, arduous process to craft phantom cards and then you need to play roulette for weeks to get your card dropped (and that is the easiest or only way to get the card) I could see it being quite tedious. But if it's a nice random alternative that doesn't become the best way to get cards, I'd be a lot happier with it.

As far as the daily quests go, focusing on new content that you haven't done yet is a good idea. But I'm not really sure if they can keep that up; it's a lot harder to keep up a stream of new content than it is to just repeat the same old quest. And once the content runs out, what then? Does the game just auto-complete the daily quests? Does the game start saying randomly generated challenges like, "Oh, you haven't done this dungeon with a mono-Ruby deck in Hard mode yet?" Or does the game say, "Go beat this dungeon because you haven't beaten it in 3 weeks"? The big thing that I'm worried about is that once seeking new content becomes rewarded, then people won't be willing to do the finite amount of new content unless they're also getting a daily reward for it.

Once the player completes the content, I'd personally like the second option of generating new challenges for existing content (possibly with some limited ability to pick a specific challenge to do). And scaling up the daily rewards accordingly, so that it's not profitable to mass swarms of accounts to do all the easy early dailies.

Corpselocker
09-04-2013, 02:51 PM
Yes, multiple accounts could make it abusive. Plus, if there is some sort of super rare card to roll for, I'll be damned if I'm not having to log on everyday for my chance to win.

Right now, for Quest of the Avatar, I plan on logging in for 64 days and by then I should have accumulate enough 'keys' so I can just sit and play the darn thing. I've yet to see a daily reward system that I enjoy...

Idus
09-04-2013, 05:03 PM
Played Runescape with my kids for a year. It had many daily/weekly/monthly rewards, and the darn spin and win wheel. Well, it didn't take long to figure the spin & win was heavily RNG rigged so what you ot didn'tvreallly reflect what you saw happening with the spin. They even had fne print stating this if you went to look at it. But it had a compulsive feel tat you had to log in every dat for your spin, and it became an addictive chore, not something you did for fun.

Similarly with the dailies. You could spend an hour just trying to complete them all, for what were really minor, but easy to get, rewards, and the feel drained and not want to play to real game anymore, due to the mindless grind you'd just completed.

I would think something more like the mission boards in space games, where it's something that is easy, with a minor reward, or harder, with a more challenging reward, but always there when you have the time, while not being forced to do it 'now' before it runs out, is a much better system, for me at least.

Still, if it does offer something different and unique that is fun, without being grindy, or overly long, I can see a daily reward being a good incentive to keep coming back. As stated above though, how do you keep it fresh, without new content being continuously added to the game?

FeelNFine
09-04-2013, 11:40 PM
Daily's is one of those things where it really depends on how it's implemented. I stopped playing GW1 shortly after the daily stuff really started increasing (I'm looking at you, traveller). It was such a chore, and the value of the daily trader was so high that it outclassed practically everything and it would be silly to do any other quests or dungeons first. Heck farming whatever the traveler was looking for that day wound up being ridiculously profitable. Since everyone could do it, it became less of a reward and more of a punishment on those who didn't, since it really kicked up inflation.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-05-2013, 12:06 AM
Fully against implementing some "reward" system that in all honesty, makes a barrier to getting whatever the reward is, aka a "random spin wheel" that features a bunch of options that you can only get one of, leaving you disappointed/frustrated that you didn't get the other X options that spun past.

I am however for some log in system that rewards everyone on the same terms. IE: extra gold for your first PVE win.

ossuary
09-05-2013, 03:48 AM
This whole thread is pretty much a non-issue now, as we've gotten an answer from CZE via the Q&A sessions from DragonCon. They have no interest in offering daily / escalating rewards or quests; Chris hates them (good!).

Soul-of-Void
09-05-2013, 05:27 AM
I'm happy with the decision Hex team come up with, couse making good daily reward system is close to impossible to do od even do able.

Shadowelf
09-05-2013, 07:03 AM
They said that they don't want daily login rewards that are grindy and unpleasant; what they were thinking was something more deeper and fun. For example, as part of the crafting system or as a rare drop you will be able to acquire phantom version of cards, which you can socket to a big wheel, and when you log in you get a spin of that wheel and you have a chance to win one of the cards socketed there. Phantom cards can also be traded ( http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:39:15)

Corpselocker
09-05-2013, 10:49 AM
Wheel of Compulsion!

ossuary
09-05-2013, 12:09 PM
Wheel or Morality, turn turn turn. Tell us the lesson we should learn.

Raffoon
09-05-2013, 04:54 PM
What if it was a weekly reward instead of a daily reward? My thought is that this might take the chore and compulsion out of it while still giving a nice little bonus to people.

Edit: As I think about it more, I have another point to make :) The potential positive side that I see with a timed reward is that it helps allow people that can not play very much to still earn/open some cards.

GenghisMike
09-05-2013, 10:50 PM
I'm really glad they aren't going to give Hex and Farmville vibe but will still reward people in a fun way. After the kickstarter I tried to not focus my attention on Hex because it was too far away before I could play it. Now that we are getting close to the Alpha, I'm more excited after ever article,video and update I come across!