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hex_colin
08-16-2013, 05:50 AM
:-O I'll log in for you if you want, if I can have half the lotuses. :-P They're almost certainly the best PvE card that has yet been spoiled.

BTW... Cory confirmed yesterday that when you take a deck into a PVE "tournament" you won't get to change your deck until the tournament is over. That leads to loads of interesting decisions around when to use your lotuses. The term "Lotus Screw" was also coined - getting 3 or 4 lotuses in an opening hand of an early round of a PVE tournament when you'd prefer to keep them for later in the day. :)

blakegrandon
08-16-2013, 05:54 AM
BTW... Cory confirmed yesterday that when you take a deck into a PVE "tournament" you won't get to change your deck until the tournament is over. That leads to loads of interesting decisions around when to use your lotuses. The term "Lotus Screw" was also coined - getting 3 or 4 lotuses in an opening hand of an early round of a PVE tournament when you'd prefer to keep them for later in the day. :)

And thus Lotuses become a whole lot less valuable.

Having 3-4 dead cards for the majority of a tournament or raid is a HUGE issue, unless you're running a Battle of the Wits type deck(where the spread means the odds of drawing or needing a lotus are minimal), I could see lotus not getting played in situations where those 3-4 cards could be better used)

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 06:05 AM
Firstly, a lot of decks will just be running Lotuses not to pop them, unless it's an oh-sheet moment where they need the mana or Black Tiger, or a difficult encounter such as a raid. Even without popping them it turns your deck into a 56 card deck, in a vacuum.

Secondly, did he elaborate on that any more? After all, it could very well be that your deck returns to its original configuration post-match, meaning that if you have Lotuses in reserve they get subbed in. You wouldn't be changing the decklist at all if that's the case. In any case, Lotuses will be immensely valuable for difficult PvE, so don't think just because they might be potentially more conditional in tournaments that they won't be worth logging in for. ^^

We discussed the whole lotus and perma transform thing a long time ago, and most of us agreed that it'd be pretty annoying to have to go into the deck editor each time we used it to take the Black Tigers out and put the Spectral Lotuses back in.

Edit: not that I necessarily mind. While not swapping the Lotuses back in would mean that the tournament isn't even a close representation of a true PvE experience (that is, reflective of vs the AI), not having the lotus would give such a tournament a more balanced spread of decks. And besides, most competitive PvPers will be sticking to the PvP tournaments. :-P

Kami
08-16-2013, 06:08 AM
BTW... Cory confirmed yesterday that when you take a deck into a PVE "tournament" you won't get to change your deck until the tournament is over. That leads to loads of interesting decisions around when to use your lotuses. The term "Lotus Screw" was also coined - getting 3 or 4 lotuses in an opening hand of an early round of a PVE tournament when you'd prefer to keep them for later in the day. :)

I disagree.

Lotus Screw is hardly a screw as it costs 0 to play and each allows you to draw a card. As long as you don't activate the main ability, you can use it as cantrip.

Lotus in PvE is still incredibly strong and if you have multiple lotuses, you can always sideboard the extras and swap them in theory. Unless Cory literally meant it's locked in as is.

hex_colin
08-16-2013, 06:10 AM
Secondly, did he elaborate on that any more? After all, it could very well be that your deck returns to its original configuration post-match, meaning that if you have Lotuses in reserve they get subbed in. You wouldn't be changing the decklist at all if that's the case. In any case, Lotuses will be immensely valuable for difficult PvE, so don't think just because they might be potentially more conditional in tournaments that they won't be worth logging in for. ^^

We discussed the whole lotus and perma transform thing a long time ago, and most of us agreed that it'd be pretty annoying to have to go into the deck editor each time we used it to take the Black Tigers out and put the Spectral Lotuses back in.

Once used, they'll be Black Tigers for the remainder of the tournament and you can't sideboard in new ones.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 06:17 AM
Where did he say this anyway? I'd like to hear it for myself. Not that I don't believe you, and I think that's fine (almost like the first card on the banned list to make a certain environment more diverse) - it would just be nice to hear everything he talked about. ^^ Don't want this creeping into certain other areas of the game... :-P

hammer
08-16-2013, 06:19 AM
Actually multiple Lotus in your opening hand that you do not intend to crack does have a slight drawback due to its masking of whether or not you should be taking a mulligan.

If you draw 7 cards you have the full grip on which to base mulligan decisions.
If you draw 4 cards and 3 lotus you have to make a mulligan decision without knowing what your 7 card hard will look like once you cantrip on the each of the three lotus

Hence this is lotus screw in mind. It is going to be rare but it will exist. If in the above situation you draw the three cards and end up with a 7 you would otherwise have mulliganed you sir have been lotus screwed ;)

hex_colin
08-16-2013, 06:24 AM
Where did he say this anyway? I'd like to hear it for myself. Not that I don't believe you, and I think that's fine (almost like the first card on the banned list to make a certain environment more diverse) - it would just be nice to hear everything he talked about. ^^ Don't want this creeping into certain other areas of the game... :-P

In a conversation with Typhon, funktion, BossHoss, and myself at GenCon yesterday. Sean (not sure if he's checking the forums) probably has a recording of it - if he uploads it, I'll post a link.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 06:26 AM
Well, not every deck was going to be an auto-include-run-4-lotus-for-a-56-card-deck situation. After all, we've had free cantrip cards in Magic for years now (Manamorphose, Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith etc) and not every deck runs them, just because outside of certain decks - pretty much just combo - you'd rather spend your turns productively rather than paying life to draw a card, or hoping your opponent doesn't counter.

Still, if Ebonrock makes it into game as is it'll probably be worth running at least 1, and probably more even with this sort of change.

Edit: oh, sure, Gen Con - thought it was on on the weekend. Glad you guys are getting useful info out of it. ^^

Kami
08-16-2013, 06:35 AM
Actually multiple Lotus in your opening hand that you do not intend to crack does have a slight drawback due to its masking of whether or not you should be taking a mulligan.

If you draw 7 cards you have the full grip on which to base mulligan decisions.
If you draw 4 cards and 3 lotus you have to make a mulligan decision without knowing what your 7 card hard will look like once you cantrip on the each of the three lotus

Hence this is lotus screw in mind. It is going to be rare but it will exist. If in the above situation you draw the three cards and end up with a 7 you would otherwise have mulliganed you sir have been lotus screwed ;)

I'd say the multi-lotus still has the advantage. This is assuming you take the risk and use the Lotuses. You could potentially have a massive beater or multiple troops on your first turn.

It'd be hard to call, imo. It'll come down to whether your deck can win without Lotuses or not and whether you were using it as a free cantrip only.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 06:40 AM
It'd be hard to call, imo. It'll come down to whether your deck can win without Lotuses or not and whether you were using it as a free cantrip only.
That's a very good point. If you ran the stats and ran the deck through tests before your tournament, you'd have an idea of when you'd want to mulligan and when you'd want to keep - including heavy-Lotus lands - and could you imagine making it through to the final of a tournament with all 4 intact? That kind of explosive potential could well be worth it.

Having said that, did anyone find out what rewards these PvE tournaments will actually offer?

Yubar
08-16-2013, 07:33 AM
I may be wrong, but if I just play lotus from my hand to draw a card, and choose not to tap it, I'm not screwed at all right? I get a free card to replace my lotus, and as long as I don't tap it, it can remain a lotus for the duration of the tourney. I'm guessing this will be true even if it is destroyed while untapped.

If what I stated above is true, are there any reasons for not running four in a tourney?

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 07:52 AM
If what I stated above is true, are there any reasons for not running four in a tourney?
As Hammer mentioned, you'll get cases where you have, say, 1 resources, 3 non resources, and 2 lotuses in a 6-card hand (due to a previous mulligan), and you'll have to ask yourself if that's a hand worth keeping or not. While if you intend to use lotuses it's likely an easy keep, if you don't intend to use them, and are unaware of the stats of the rest of your deck, you might face a hard decision.

In many decks they'll still be beneficial. One of the keys will be for players who are playing such tournaments competitively to actually look into the stats before hand and figure out their percentages for just such a situation, and thus work out prior to a tournament what hands are keeps and which are mulls. It's not really any different to what Magic pros do now, and what competitive Hex PvPers will do before bringing new decks to the tournament scene.

hex_colin
08-16-2013, 09:38 AM
I just did an interview with Cory - he confirmed the content of my earlier Lotus post. I'll try to post the unedited audio pretty soon, and then clean it up after GenCon.

Turtlewing
08-16-2013, 01:59 PM
And thus Lotuses become a whole lot less valuable.

Having 3-4 dead cards for the majority of a tournament or raid is a HUGE issue, unless you're running a Battle of the Wits type deck(where the spread means the odds of drawing or needing a lotus are minimal), I could see lotus not getting played in situations where those 3-4 cards could be better used)

I don't see this as much of an issue.

The main use of lotuses in competitive decks would be for the cantrip.

Their secondary use is as a "panic button" and if you're using that early in the tournament you're probably not much of a contender anyway.

And the black tiger has no threshold so any deck can use it as a decent 3 drop. It's not really a "dead" card.

All and all if you thought lotuses were worth having in your deck before they're probably still worth it. About the only use case that's harmed is if you were relying on them for your manna curve.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 02:14 PM
Colin's latest interview with Cory had Cory saying that he didn't believe the lotus drew a card unless it was activated. While it's possible that he just misremembered the card - perhaps he hasn't looked at it much since the KS - it's also possible that the dev team tweaked it since the KS ended (potentially after seeing people comment on how the free cantrip made a deck pseudo-56 cards, so could easily be run as a 4-of in decks that don't intend to use it), and Cory was actually remembering the updated version of the card. o.O

All conjecture, mind you, but if it has indeed changed, then I can think of only two situations currently where keeping them in the deck and not using them might be viable - and future updates might change that too.

Turtlewing
08-16-2013, 02:27 PM
Colin's latest interview with Cory had Cory saying that he didn't believe the lotus drew a card unless it was activated. While it's possible that he just misremembered the card - perhaps he hasn't looked at it much since the KS - it's also possible that the dev team tweaked it since the KS ended (potentially after seeing people comment on how the free cantrip made a deck pseudo-56 cards, so could easily be run as a 4-of in decks that don't intend to use it), and Cory was actually remembering the updated version of the card. o.O

All conjecture, mind you, but if it has indeed changed, then I can think of only two situations currently where keeping them in the deck and not using them might be viable - and future updates might change that too.

I'd bet on Corey forgetting over the card having changed. His track record has not really shown encyclopedic knowledge of the minutia. He once said that Dungeon Crawler applied to Raid loot and was later corrected as one example.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 02:34 PM
Well I hope it isn't the case - but it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing either. It's such a strong card in so many ways atm. >.<

Miwa
08-16-2013, 03:22 PM
I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if it requires popping it to get the draw. They're pretty insane otherwise... Not that PvE cards aren't going to have lots of insane abilities. :)

Apparition
08-16-2013, 04:56 PM
I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if it requires popping it to get the draw. They're pretty insane otherwise... Not that PvE cards aren't going to have lots of insane abilities. :)

If you have to activate to draw that really blows and kills the value of the card. If that was an actual change, I'd be super disappointed and refrain from spending more money on Hex. I'm hoping Cory just made a mistake.

Hemlock
08-16-2013, 05:39 PM
If you have to activate to draw that really blows and kills the value of the card. If that was an actual change, I'd be super disappointed and refrain from spending more money on Hex. I'm hoping Cory just made a mistake.

It'd still be obscenely powerful, just not useable for inertly cycling through your deck. I suppose you could make the argument that the Kickstarter promised you something you're no longer getting. Personally, I don't mind, so long as I get to play a better game on account of the decision.

Apparition
08-16-2013, 06:08 PM
Yes. I'm sure the Spectral Lotus was a large reason many people ended up picking up King Tier or higher (I know it's why I did). If the card was changed (essentially nerfed) then it would be a big blow to my confidence in CZ. Spectral Lotus would still be powerful, but let's not forget - it is PVE only already. I'm sure there will be plenty of cards that will potentially be just as powerful in terms of PVE.

Chiany
08-16-2013, 08:28 PM
Yes. I'm sure the Spectral Lotus was a large reason many people ended up picking up King Tier or higher (I know it's why I did).

It is one of the reason I spend a larger sum of money on Hex, but not the most important one of course.
But I agree with some of the posts above me, I think it would hurt CZE a little if they "nerfed" Spectral Lotus to what Corey said in the interview,.

I think however it was just a mistake.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 10:25 PM
Yes. I'm sure the Spectral Lotus was a large reason many people ended up picking up King Tier or higher (I know it's why I did). If the card was changed (essentially nerfed) then it would be a big blow to my confidence in CZ. Spectral Lotus would still be powerful, but let's not forget - it is PVE only already. I'm sure there will be plenty of cards that will potentially be just as powerful in terms of PVE.
Do you really think that? I'd like to think that most people were backing highly because the game looked awesome, not because they were getting access to the card that produces a broken PvP card. I know I love the benefits I'm getting, but I wouldn't have backed at all if the game looked bad. And balance and diversity are good things in a game. :-)

Apparition
08-16-2013, 10:57 PM
Do you really think that? I'd like to think that most people were backing highly because the game looked awesome, not because they were getting access to the card that produces a broken PvP card. I know I love the benefits I'm getting, but I wouldn't have backed at all if the game looked bad. And balance and diversity are good things in a game. :-)

A lot of people certainly did back KING tier or above because of Spectral Lotus Garden. I'm not saying that is the only reason people backed high. Spectral Lotus Garden likely influenced people who would have backed at Knight or Captain to King+. I think there would have still been about the same number of backers, but a lot more of the backers would have probably stuck to a lower tier if not for the Spectral Lotus Garden incentive.

I really think a lot of high backings were because of SLG. There's no way to know how many though.

Second, broken PVP card? What are you talking about? Spectral Lotus is PVE only.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-16-2013, 11:26 PM
Typo, apologies. That's what I'm talking about. ^^ If it were a broken PvP card then I'd understand people backing solely for it. :-P

Zaelesis
08-17-2013, 12:24 AM
Do you really think that? I'd like to think that most people were backing highly because the game looked awesome, not because they were getting access to the card that produces a broken PvP card. I know I love the benefits I'm getting, but I wouldn't have backed at all if the game looked bad. And balance and diversity are good things in a game. :-)
It is not the reason i backed so high at Pro player, but it is the reason that i backed a second time to get a king tier as well. The second SLG provides alot of power and flexible play that its worth the extra cost in the long rung.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-17-2013, 12:25 AM
But didn't you want more Spectral Lotus Gardens in order to use more? After all, if you only wanted to cantrip with them, then you'd only ever need 4. :-P

keldrin
08-17-2013, 01:29 AM
Well, they specifically advertised it this way
"The Spectral Garden is the pinnacle of HEX card collection, plain and simple. We spent a lot of time making sure the total package for this would be perfect, because we knew we wanted a seriously awesome reward for the true TCG fans that are going to kickstart us at this tier."

So, yeah, they billed the card as major awesomeness and I think a lot of people backed the king tier because of it. Nerfing it would definetly impact those backers fairly hard, when they say "wait, this card is TO pinnacle."

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-17-2013, 01:42 AM
How would it still not be the pinnacle?

The only nerf here is that it's no longer simply a free cantrip (that is, if they even nerfed it). So instead of running it in any old deck to turn that deck into a 56 card deck (which isn't all upside anyway, and requires more consideration than some players are considering) and having it there to maybe use if you feel desperate, you'd only include it in a deck that either intends to use it, or wants extra artifacts on the battlefield even if they don't do anything.

It'd still very much be the best card in PvE, without a doubt.

Zaelesis
08-17-2013, 06:45 AM
But didn't you want more Spectral Lotus Gardens in order to use more? After all, if you only wanted to cantrip with them, then you'd only ever need 4. :-P

Oh i personally plan to use them, which is why i own 2, however if they dont allow side board, it will heavily weigh on when you use them. Not only that but removing the cantrip and having it there and not using it, is a waste of space, so in most tournament situations, the card could end up being a problem and not a solution.

Aradon
08-17-2013, 10:58 PM
How would it still not be the pinnacle?

The only nerf here is that it's no longer simply a free cantrip (that is, if they even nerfed it). So instead of running it in any old deck to turn that deck into a 56 card deck (which isn't all upside anyway, and requires more consideration than some players are considering) and having it there to maybe use if you feel desperate, you'd only include it in a deck that either intends to use it, or wants extra artifacts on the battlefield even if they don't do anything.

It'd still very much be the best card in PvE, without a doubt.

I don't think I've heard anyone complaining about how Black Lotus doesn't draw a card when you play it, now that you mention it :)

DreamPuppet
08-17-2013, 11:39 PM
You can add me to the "pledged higher for lotus" list. If having gardens will just mean you'll be able to make cards that won't be in demand then i'll be somewhat disappointed.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-17-2013, 11:55 PM
They'll still be in demand - they'll still be the best cards in PvE. You just won't be able to include them in decks purely for the cantrip. Having said that, I'll re-state that this is all speculation based on what could've been a misremember my Cory.

Apparition
08-18-2013, 12:31 AM
I don't think I've heard anyone complaining about how Black Lotus doesn't draw a card when you play it, now that you mention it :)

You've also probably never heard someone say. "Oh man, I got this awesome black lotus playset that I can use. Oh, well I'm not allowed to use it against other players." To be fair, a playset these days is just one.

If the cantrip portion was removed from SL, I have my doubts this card would be the de-facto best card in PVE.

That said, there's not really much point talking about this unless the change or lack of a change is confirmed.

Bosscannon
09-05-2013, 12:28 PM
If they allow you to use legendary equipment, couldn't you just use the lotus's discard and draw effect to not be forced to use those?

Hemotherapy
09-12-2013, 11:40 AM
They'll still be in demand - they'll still be the best cards in PvE. You just won't be able to include them in decks purely for the cantrip. Having said that, I'll re-state that this is all speculation based on what could've been a misremember my Cory.

I really hope that's all it is.

The one thing I really loved about this game is that they said Hey, we're never going to nerf cards, so we're not going to have you build a deck, and then in a patch or something you log in and something's changed and it just totally ruins your deck you just made. We'll never nerf cards, we'll just ban them if they get out of control.


Would REALLY tick me off if they go back on their word before the game even started...I picked King Tier originally to get that lotus "as is" or was I guess?

Falaris
09-12-2013, 12:11 PM
I really hope that's all it is.

The one thing I really loved about this game is that they said Hey, we're never going to nerf cards, so we're not going to have you build a deck, and then in a patch or something you log in and something's changed and it just totally ruins your deck you just made. We'll never nerf cards, we'll just ban them if they get out of control.


Would REALLY tick me off if they go back on their word before the game even started...I picked King Tier originally to get that lotus "as is" or was I guess?

The card previewed was pre-alpha. Countless cards have been modified, why would you expect this wouldn't be the same?

If you're wanting to be technical, they're not going back on their word. You can't nerf a card that hasn't been released yet.

Aradon
09-12-2013, 03:42 PM
Technical Genius seems to have been nerfed from 1 cost to 2. That made me sad. Then again, I did describe him to all my friends as "Etherium Sculptor, but only costs 1 for some reason" :P

RECHiD
09-12-2013, 06:40 PM
I think the game would be better without the auto-cantrip, and so I hope it gets changed.

Without going over every single minute point that has been made about the card, the vast majority of us will agree that the card will be a 4x in nearly any optimized PVE deck.

If the Lotus remains unchanged, it will create a barrier for those who do not have them. A barrier that can be overcome, sure, but a barrier none the less. For the entire life of the PVE game, a lot of people who do not have Gardens will need to acquire Lotus. Occasionally, they will use the ability, and then require more. They'll need to spend gold/plat on the AH just to reload, or trade away cards/loot, and no matter what that will consume time. To many, it will feel like a chore, which sucks. "Oh yeah, I'll be ready to go to Dungeon X with you guys in a few minutes, I just gotta go reload on Lotuses."

Veterans who get new friends to join will advise them to get 4 Lotuses ASAP, and tell them to put them in every deck, and to NEVER use them, unless they want to buy more. How about THAT for an odd new player experience...

Aradon
09-13-2013, 06:58 AM
Balance-wise, I agree that it shouldn't cantrip. However, I'm wary of changing it, because the garden basically sold a lot of people their King tiers and Collectors tiers. If you change that, there would be a lot of anger.

BenAndrion
09-26-2013, 10:52 PM
The card states right NOW as
"when this artifact enters pay, draw a card.
(tap) gain +[3/0], gain three [THRESHOLD], and return it to your hand. It irreversibly transforms into a Blcak Tiger. This change persists even after the game ends"

If they changed the effect, then they will have gone back on their promise to never nerf a card. I am sorry, but I do not like the idea of changing the card that was pretty much the pinnacle of playable cards in Hex. It would very much upset me.

But regardless, as long as you have the equipment for it, you wont just get a card. You will get a card AND two life.
Which is pretty handy in some white decks that trigger life gain effects.

Falaris
09-26-2013, 10:52 PM
The card states right NOW as
"when this artifact enters pay, draw a card.
(tap) gain +[3/0], gain three [THRESHOLD], and return it to your hand. It irreversibly transforms into a Blcak Tiger. This change persists even after the game ends"

If they changed the effect, then they will have gone back on their promise to never nerf a card. I am sorry, but I do not like the idea of changing the card that was pretty much the pinnacle of playable cards in Hex. It would very much upset me.

But regardless, as long as you have the equipment for it, you wont just get a card. You will get a card AND two life.
Which is pretty handy in some white decks that trigger life gain effects.

You cant nerf a card that hasnt been printed

BenAndrion
09-26-2013, 11:10 PM
what do you mean?? it was in color on the kickstarter page that you would receive "THIS" card (among others).
are you telling me that a revised, worse, version of the card is the same card??
I think not lol

Falaris
09-26-2013, 11:18 PM
what do you mean?? it was in color on the kickstarter page that you would receive "THIS" card (among others).
are you telling me that a revised, worse, version of the card is the same card??
I think not lol

1. You were shown a pre-alpha version of a card. Everything before release is subject to change.

2. If a card has to be changed before release to make for a better game then so be it. A few peoples' overpowered advantage should not diminish the experience for the rest of the players of a game. Quit being selfish.

BenAndrion
09-26-2013, 11:31 PM
1. I was shown, as was everyone, what reward we would receive for donating to their company. Pre-alpha, shmee-alpha. What they do with their actual set, in terms of balancing after they pre release cards is cool. I have no problem with them tweaking those things because I trust their judgement in making a balanced game. Changing a sneak peak of a card is different from them saying this card shown here is your card that you get for contributing to kickstarter, and then changing the card that I conditionally purchased. I am serious, this upsets me a lot.

2. I don't want this card to stand the way it is so I can beat everyone else. This card is not a general PVP card. my inital complaint was not personal sir, and I am sorry you decided to resort to accusing me of being selfish. But no, I wanted this card beause I wanted to use it in PVE. And I was super super super excited to make a super awesome deck (or two...or five haha) out of them and use them in this cool world they were making. And when a wild west format was introduced, and I thought of some cool combos my friends and I could use on each other, we were super stoked. We started talking about the different ways to use the card, and the advantages of waiting to use it mid-to late tournamet or whether to go guns blazing and use them early and often. But the loss of drawing a card is a substantial blow to some of the ideas we had on using the card. SO naturally the speculation of it being changed is upsetting. Which I have shared.
I do not see any substantial reasoning on how letting a player draw a card by playing the pinnacle of played Hex cards is ruing ones' experience sir. please explain.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-27-2013, 12:06 AM
I'll be fine if they keep it or change it. But the promise to not nerf or change cards logically seems to be in regards to released sets. A very big part of the design process is to fix cards that 'aren't working' for one reason or another.

Having said that, I'm sure it won't be changed once we've received it.

HellFro
10-02-2013, 01:55 PM
I have to agree with BenAndrion. I'll mostly be playing PVE with some PVP when I have time, having the Lotus as a free cantrip and panic button was a huge draw for me going up to King Tier, as a newbie to MMO and TCGs. And pre-emptively nerfing what they sold as "Wouldn’t it be nice to be the guy who decided to buy in and is now generating passive income until the end of time" seems to go against the CZE code.

Falaris
10-02-2013, 10:11 PM
I have to agree with BenAndrion. I'll mostly be playing PVE with some PVP when I have time, having the Lotus as a free cantrip and panic button was a huge draw for me going up to King Tier, as a newbie to MMO and TCGs. And pre-emptively nerfing what they sold as "Wouldn’t it be nice to be the guy who decided to buy in and is now generating passive income until the end of time" seems to go against the CZE code.

Yes, because the tiers aren't already massive benefits, in addition to the Spectral Lotus. While CZE won't advertise it on here, if you're now unhappy with your King Tier purchase I'm sure you can find some way to get rid of it to someone else, for at least twice what you paid for it.

HellFro
10-03-2013, 02:28 PM
Now, now, I'm already in love with the game. And fact be known, CZE has already achieved can do no wrong status in my eyes. Just stating a preference to an awesome card not being not as awesome, considering that it was a selling point. One of many amazing selling points.

malloc31
10-03-2013, 03:51 PM
Yes, because the tiers aren't already massive benefits, in addition to the Spectral Lotus. While CZE won't advertise it on here, if you're now unhappy with your King Tier purchase I'm sure you can find some way to get rid of it to someone else, for at least twice what you paid for it.

If you agree to buy a product it should come as described. If you buy a meal from some company and it has a burger, fries, and soda; and they give it to you with the soda half empty you have a right to complain, no mater how good the burger and fries are. Just because the value of the tiers may be great it doesn't give them a right to change goods that had been announced with out some how compensating.

Falaris
10-03-2013, 03:54 PM
If you agree to buy a product it should come as described. If you buy a meal from some company and it has a burger, fries, and soda; and they give it to you with the soda half empty you have a right to complain, no mater how good the burger and fries are. Just because the value of the tiers may be great it doesn't give them a right to change goods that had been announced with out some how compensating.

You're being compensated by receiving roughly 3-4 times the value of your investment in the first place, even if you NEVER received a Spectral Lotus. Bottom line the card as initially shown was unbalancing for the game.

jaxsonbatemanhex
10-03-2013, 04:05 PM
I'm also pretty sure that it's in the fine print/ToS that cards are subject to potential change (even though they've said that's something they don't want to have to do, they have to cover their bases). If we use the fast food analogy, if they have you sign a form when you purchase your meal that says that due to government regulations they may only be able to give you half a soda with the meal, then when you get half a soda with your meal - it's disappointing, but fair game.

Scammanator
10-03-2013, 04:16 PM
I'd just like to point out that it looks like PvE is already going to have plenty of free cantrips available.

Look at Outflank: 0 cost Quick Action. Target Troop gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Draw a card.

And the pirates that can be added to your deck during Kraken's Gold were said to be zero-to-low cost cantrip troops.

Falaris
10-03-2013, 04:20 PM
I'd just like to point out that it looks like PvE is already going to have plenty of free cantrips available.

Look at Outflank: 0 cost Quick Action. Target Troop gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Draw a card.

And the pirates that can be added to your deck during Kraken's Gold were said to be zero-to-low cost cantrip troops.

+2+2 does not really compare to a black lotus.

Aradon
10-03-2013, 05:16 PM
Where is this Outflank card? I haven't seen it yet, and it sounds ridiculous. Not as good as spectal lotus, but almost an auto-include in any deck.

Scammanator
10-03-2013, 05:59 PM
+2+2 does not really compare to a black lotus.

No, but it's hard to find a deck that you don't want 4 Outflanks in. (I should specify that Outflank is granted by the warrior tree, so you're giving up other awesome options to have access to it)

But I'd leave a non-cantripping lotus out of most of my decks, whereas I'd nearly always want an Outflank. Lotus was designed to always be in demand, it's supposed to be an auto-include in nearly all decks, like Outflank is.

I admit that this sort of design could lead to some problems in PvE. I'm just pointing out that Lotus's cantrip design appears to be part of PvE elsewhere. "Fixing" Lotus doesn't really avoid the issue that you may see here.

malloc31
10-03-2013, 07:07 PM
You're being compensated by receiving roughly 3-4 times the value of your investment in the first place, even if you NEVER received a Spectral Lotus. Bottom line the card as initially shown was unbalancing for the game.

The 3-4 times the value was how it was described in the first place; that didn't happen after I bought it, to make it that good of a deal was always crypto's decision no one held a gun to their head. It's just like buying something on sale. Just because we got good deals doesn't mean they have a right to take some of it back.

If the card is too good and needs to be changed, they need to address the problem, admit it, not threw leaks but in a statement and explain the solution, which if it includes a nerf should include some kind of buff too (maybe you can make an extra one a day since they wouldn't be as powerful).

Falaris
10-03-2013, 08:32 PM
The 3-4 times the value was how it was described in the first place; that didn't happen after I bought it, to make it that good of a deal was always crypto's decision no one held a gun to their head. It's just like buying something on sale. Just because we got good deals doesn't mean they have a right to take some of it back.

If the card is too good and needs to be changed, they need to address the problem, admit it, not threw leaks but in a statement and explain the solution, which if it includes a nerf should include some kind of buff too (maybe you can make an extra one a day since they wouldn't be as powerful).

They have EVERY right. As has already been pointed out, they have said that although they would prefer not to, they reserve the right to change cards if they completely unbalance the game.

Falaris
10-03-2013, 08:33 PM
No, but it's hard to find a deck that you don't want 4 Outflanks in. (I should specify that Outflank is granted by the warrior tree, so you're giving up other awesome options to have access to it)

But I'd leave a non-cantripping lotus out of most of my decks, whereas I'd nearly always want an Outflank. Lotus was designed to always be in demand, it's supposed to be an auto-include in nearly all decks, like Outflank is.

I admit that this sort of design could lead to some problems in PvE. I'm just pointing out that Lotus's cantrip design appears to be part of PvE elsewhere. "Fixing" Lotus doesn't really avoid the issue that you may see here.

So you think a cantrip Giant Growth should go in more decks than a Black Lotus? I think we've found the problem here.

jaxsonbatemanhex
10-04-2013, 12:36 AM
I'm still curious where people have seen this Outflank card. Googling it, I found only one comment about it, on the Hex Kickstarter comments, from back in May. While its power level seems fine when you consider its a champion ability, I'd just love a source if anyone has one.

But yes, 3 temp mana and threshold craps on +2/+2. Even moreso when you consider that if you just want the cantrip, the +2/+2 card needs a target. And if Outflank is a warrior champ card, then it may not have any equipment - and even if it does, it'll probably pale in comparison to the Lotus gloves.

Scammanator
10-04-2013, 06:09 AM
I'm still curious where people have seen this Outflank card. Googling it, I found only one comment about it, on the Hex Kickstarter comments, from back in May. While its power level seems fine when you consider its a champion ability, I'd just love a source if anyone has one.

But yes, 3 temp mana and threshold craps on +2/+2. Even moreso when you consider that if you just want the cantrip, the +2/+2 card needs a target. And if Outflank is a warrior champ card, then it may not have any equipment - and even if it does, it'll probably pale in comparison to the Lotus gloves.

1:21 in the trailer on Hex's frontpage.

Yeah the need-a-target issue is why I said *almost* any deck. But I was comparing cantriping Outflank to the proposed non-cantripping Lotus. And even then, the lotus would be more powerful in a deck built to take advantage of it. But Outflank will still be a better fit for a wider variety of decks. Lotus is designed to be desirable by everybody.

Also, using a card for just free cantripping adds zero power to the deck, it only adds consistency. And PvE should allow for greater consistency over what we expect for PvP.

Norious
10-04-2013, 06:25 AM
1:21 in the trailer on Hex's frontpage.

Yeah the need-a-target issue is why I said *almost* any deck. But I was comparing cantriping Outflank to the proposed non-cantripping Lotus. And even then, the lotus would be more powerful in a deck built to take advantage of it. But Outflank will still be a better fit for a wider variety of decks. Lotus is designed to be desirable by everybody.

Also, using a card for just free cantripping adds zero power to the deck, it only adds consistency. And PvE should allow for greater consistency over what we expect for PvP.

Yeah what he said...

Falaris
10-04-2013, 10:38 AM
1:21 in the trailer on Hex's frontpage.

Yeah the need-a-target issue is why I said *almost* any deck. But I was comparing cantriping Outflank to the proposed non-cantripping Lotus. And even then, the lotus would be more powerful in a deck built to take advantage of it. But Outflank will still be a better fit for a wider variety of decks. Lotus is designed to be desirable by everybody.

Also, using a card for just free cantripping adds zero power to the deck, it only adds consistency. And PvE should allow for greater consistency over what we expect for PvP.

One of the cards in this discussion is one of the most iconic cards in the history of CCGs. Its worth upwards of a thousand dollars and has been restricted to 1 per deck for its power level for almost 19 years. The other card is a cantrip Giant Growth.

Kamino72
10-09-2013, 12:44 PM
A card is totally broken when everybody want to put 4 in every deck.

It looks like this is the case here.