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sambly14
08-17-2013, 12:47 PM
Those are my 3 picks in that order. I have decided to invest my time and money into Hearthstone, play Solforge for the hell of it and not bother with Hex. Mostly because i have been playing WoW since HoA, have bought 3-4 boxes of each set and loved every match i've played (win or lose). I started playing the mmo because of the card game and the characters i saw on these cards. I wish Crypto the best with Hex but i have to stick with what i know and love.

Yeah i know this is'nt the place for this thread but i really don't care.

freudinio
08-17-2013, 03:31 PM
I'll play Hex. Hearthstone is too casual. SolForge does not appeal to me. /shrug.

Deathfog
08-17-2013, 08:51 PM
With Hearthstone out of NDA we are now free to examine some interesting similarities and contrasts between it and Hex.
I originally thought of Heathstone as a minor little minigame Blizzard designed in their free time. While HS is very simplified, its a serious game at this point while in beta. I am mostly unfamiliar with current mechanics in WoWTCG, so some of these are most likely present in that game.
Is HS competition for Hex? I'd say not directly, its fast, simple, casual, and uncomplicated for the most part. Its fun, its probably the best casual/quick card game I've seen so far.

Its going to usually have much faster matches as there aren't as many actions to take, you cap out for mana at turn 10, and run out of cards in your library at turn 30 or less with more card draw. After you run out of cards you start again drawing for 1 health per draw. HS has hard turn timers which are 1 minute or so, maybe less.

Creatures in HS don't heal at the end of the turn.

HS has no trading just buying packs of 5 cards for between $1.50 and $1 depending on how many you buy at once. Unneeded cards can be broken down to craft specific cards. Hex is going to use a breakdown/craft system for something though the specifics have changed since the KS started.

HS decks are 30 card, no resources, 2 maximum per card. Hex uses standard M:tG conventions.

Hex primarily is a extension of the style of Magic: the Gathering, while Hearthstone uses basic Yugioh style mechanics. Hex uses blockers to prevent creature damage to the hero while HS allows attackers to go after any target they want unless a 'Taunt' minion is on the board.

HS has abandoned phases along with counters and active reactions. You only play cards on your turn, you only attack on your turn. The only exceptions are Secrets which activate automatically when a simple condition occurs and don't seem to have an expiration. A creature can attack, you can cast, another attack, summon, another attack if you are otherwise capable.

Both have class based unique active abilities. Most in HS seem to cost 2 mana, while Hex are limited additionally by uses per resource played.

HS restricts cards by class or they are neutrals for everyone. Hex the 5 color system with less strict requirements from M:tG.

HS gives 1 mana per turn, restoring each turn minus any Overload uses. Hex resources are essentially M:tG lands. After 10 turns in HS, any single card can be likely cast with some exceptions, mana doesn't go beyond 10. The person to go 2nd in HS also gets a ring card for 1 extra mana for one turn to balance out things.

HS healing caps at the heroes starting 30 health, some cards check 30 minus current health as a measure of damage taken overall. Hex I assume allows overloading health score like M:tG. HS also has an armor stat that stacks infinitely as far as I've seen that is a 1 for 1 reduction in damage to the hero. Hex warrior has an armor ability similarly.

Healing by default can target a creature or player in HS, exceptions are noted.

HS has weapon cards that link to the hero, one at a time, and can be used to make attacks once per turn up to a predefined number before the weapon breaks. Hex warrior has an ability to make direct attacks similarly, but the hero takes damage according to the attack of the creature attacked.

HS introduces some new mechanics that have a lot of potential, though not as many of Hex. This isn't a competition though as Hex could easily introduce most of these in a later expansion. Some examples are below.

2 good keywords in HS for common events. Battlecry for abilities that activate on summoning and Deathrattle for abilities that activate on death of the creature.
Stealth keyword, creature is untargetable until it attacks.
Overload, deducts from your active mana pool for the next turn only. Wouldn't work in M:tG but would work in Hex with its common resource pool. Additionally a good number of cards have negatives on casting, making them much more powerful for their initial mana cost.

MugenMusou
08-17-2013, 09:12 PM
Great comparison,

HS sounds a lot like Shadow Era.

I wonder if HEX will eventually add hero weapon and armor.

Ghost
08-17-2013, 11:16 PM
Those are my 3 picks in that order. I have decided to invest my time and money into Hearthstone, play Solforge for the hell of it and not bother with Hex. Mostly because i have been playing WoW since HoA, have bought 3-4 boxes of each set and loved every match i've played (win or lose). I started playing the mmo because of the card game and the characters i saw on these cards. I wish Crypto the best with Hex but i have to stick with what i know and love.

Yeah i know this is'nt the place for this thread but i really don't care.

I feel basically the same as you.
Currently wondering if I'll be able to resell my Hex Kickstarter rewards for more than I paid for them or not.

TheKraken
08-17-2013, 11:49 PM
Great writeup Deathfog! One observation I had was that turns are super quick. Hopefully we'll have this scenario: Gamers will be drawn into Heartstone because of Blizzard's massive marketing empire; from there, they will seek a more competitive online TCG and find Hex :)

Here's the link to Heartstone twitch streams: http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Hearthstone:%20Heroes%20of%20Warcraft

Malicus
08-18-2013, 12:00 AM
Overload, deducts from your active mana pool for the next turn only. Wouldn't work in M:tG but would work in Hex with its common resource pool. Additionally a good number of cards have negatives on casting, making them much more powerful for their initial mana cost.

MtG does do this mechanic via pay X or lose the game during next upkeep. Hearthstone sounds fun I will probably play it casually alongside Hex - maybe even on my Ipad while I am drafting Hex on my PC.

Gnimsh
08-18-2013, 06:22 AM
Currently I'm into Hearthstone. What draws me in is Blizzard and their audience. When Day9 was streaming it he had 15k viewers. I'm watching ppl play HS on Twitch since its release in NA and it looks fun to watch and fun to play. I don't see it that much different from WoW Tcg. All the basic rules of tcg strategy apply there. The level of complexity might be lower due to an easier resource system, but still the basics are there and on a higher level every decision will count. The game will probably also improve in time, when the card pool expands.

Solforge is fun, but somehow I don't feel like investing into it. The games I've played so far seemed to be mostly based on the deck strength, not skill of the player. This may improve when ppl get more cards, but I have mixed feelings. I like the game, I just don't see myself investing too much time into it. Maybe when they release the drafts. It's just a beta version after all.

Hex. No opinion right now. I need to see and play it. I was hyped, but after no information about WoW all my Hype run out, so I just don't care right now. When it releases I will give it a try, I'm a backer after all and decide if I want to play and invest in it.

I would have any problems investing in HS as it is right now even though I didn't play a single game :)

Karstaag
08-18-2013, 08:13 AM
Tryed Solforge but wasn´t really interested by it.

Hearthstone seems like a fun. Kind of game you play for a little while or every now and then, but I cannot see myself being dedicated to it as much. Cards in that game just don´t have the stuff that I need so they do not have much of a value in my head. The fact that cards cannot be trade is also something that is deal-breaker for me. The fact is that if I have really rare card i would not trade it anyway just because I have collector urges with these kinds of game, but if it could be traded it would give the card more value.
And both HS and SF have no counters and instant stuff. And I love to play counters....

So HEX it is.... seems like more hardcore and deep experience. And even that it is heavily inspired by MtG, which seems to be problem for many people, It is still way to go. And when you think about it... if you want to "steal", then "steal" from the best. And MtG is one of the best physical TCGs there... Take that and throw in all those great digital features, PVE elements and tournaments.... and you´ve got yourself a winner.

GhundiPI
08-18-2013, 08:23 AM
For me it will be Hex. As Hex will be the only online cardgame capable of providing the full experience of a TCG with tournaments from the get go, combined with (hopefully) a solid and extensive PvE experience and great extra's like player keeps. None of the myriad of current and future games out there will be able to provide such an extensive feature set, and that is just the beginning for Hex.

I've played Solforge and while it is solid game, the style is not my taste and unfortunately the PC client has too much the feel of a tablet UI (which it essentially still is) for me to be able to enjoy it. As for Hearthstone, well I'm not in the beta, but from what I've seen so far I probably won't even play it. While the game itself is probably great fun, it's long lasting appeal is just not there for me.

I also think that as it stands now, there is nothing casual about Hearthstone at all. The current reward system seems pretty brutal for anyone but those committing a huge amount of time, which means that I'll not be able to play it besides Hex. And I do not see any reason to put a considerable amount of money into the game, and reports from those playing at the moment suggest that quite some real money will have to be spend to be able to get a decent card collection, for what is just a basic CCG with no extras.

But for those who see Hearthstone as their main game and are really into Warcraft, I do think that it will be a great game. Me, I'll be patiently waiting for the Hex alpha.

HyenaNipples
08-18-2013, 08:26 AM
I was signed up for the Hearthstone beta, but being unable to play cards on your opponent's turns? That means you are only playing half the time, which also means that it's only half the game that Hex TCG is.

CoS
08-18-2013, 08:30 AM
Skipping Hearthstone, way to casual/kiddy. Backed SolForge @$60 and just dropped 99.99 on gold yesterday, so I do love it and can't wait for more competitive play, and drooling for Hex PvP which is going to be the best ever!

zadies
08-18-2013, 08:39 AM
Wowtcg has counters and while resources are easy to get you do have to burn cards to get them. Only thing hearth stone has in common is the lore material. If I was interested in the lore I'd play wow but that lore is is tapped out for me. No instants no decisions about resources takes half the thinking out of the match and vastly simplifies deck construction. I'm not interested in simple.

Diesbudt
08-18-2013, 09:26 AM
Hearthstone looked way too simple and kindergarten level of a TCG. SolForge didn't look all that interesting when I saw it on Kickstarter.

Hex looks complex enough (like magic) and looks like a real TCG just on a computer with a lot of PvE factors and such. So it was the obvious choice for me.

nicosharp
08-18-2013, 09:30 AM
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25595
A little outdated, but provides some general information about all 3 games.

Mr.Funsocks
08-18-2013, 09:41 AM
Was never interested in Hearthstone, but from what I saw on a few videos the other day, it's like a CCG-Lite. No real deep strategy, the kind of game you'd expect to pay 2 bucks for on the app store, and get some kicks out of while waiting in line. Not something you'd invest significantly in. Solforge is even weaker on that front. Played it for a few days and realized it's basically all about getting the right cards to make one good play each game, to get significant card advantage, then you just maintain it and win. Which, yeah, is hard, and involves a lot of skill, but makes the game itself pretty bland.

Both games suffer from a very simple problem: You have less control over, and less response to, what happens. Much more of the gameplay is automatic or in your opponents' control, which greatly limits design space. You can't decide in Hearthstone whether to block or not, which creatures will have to fight. That means, say, a Prodigal Sorcerer card, or Apprentice Wizard card, are completely out of the question. Creatures only have value if they can fight, or survive fights.

They both also have the problem of having no resource system that players can effect, which removes two main strategies in MtG/Hex - resource denial (albeit Hex is unlikely to feature this one) and resource ramp. I suppose they COULD make these types of cards, but it would likely be impossible to balance. There's also no form of ongoing effect or cards you play on your opponents' turn (at least in Solforge), which eliminates another huge swath of design space.

Again, they're both fun, and if you enjoy them, more power to you. But they aren't something I see many people investing (either intellectually or financially) significantly in. I'd pay 5 bucks to have access to all the cards and play around in either, but that's about it.

Edswor
08-18-2013, 09:44 AM
I play mostly HEX as it seems the most "complete" right now, but also play a lot Heartstone with friends and some time to time Soulforge.

Why choose one when we can play the three of them ;) .

Khazrakh
08-18-2013, 09:50 AM
I won't bother with SolForge, it's a terrible game to me. Nice ideas but completely flawed design.
Hearthstone will be that fun casual game I'll play while getting to work, Hex I'll play a lot more. I think Hearthstone will be a huge success, but it will get boring rather fast if you're into any competition or real strategy what so ever.

Yoss
08-18-2013, 09:56 AM
HS as SF both seem like "kiddie" TCG games to me compared to Hex and MTG. That's actually the one thing I worry about Hex: that new and casual players might be hard to bring in to such a deep game. If Hex can make great intro materials to get casuals through the learning curve in a fun way, Hex will blow HS and SF away.

Edswor
08-18-2013, 09:58 AM
If Hex can make great intro materials to get casuals through the learning curve in a fun way, Hex will blow HS and SF away.

Also may be Hearthstone will be the initial choice for new people that came into the TCG world, and then they may be move to Hex as its a more "complex"/content game.

Aradon
08-18-2013, 10:04 AM
The gameplay of hearthstone seems very simplified, but the game also seems very smooth. I label it as a casual game not because of the required time investment to build up a collection, but because games are easy to hop into and finish up quickly, and because the gameplay is very straightforward. On your turn, you're the one doing stuff, no responses or counters, and when you finish up, its your opponent's turn. It looks like a lot of fun, though, so I want to play it on a free level (and maybe spend some of my Blizzard balance on it).

Solforge has disappointed me in terms of the solidity of its game mechanics, and the client is extremely poor. Art's disappointing on many cards (though some of it's pretty good.) Winning a game relies too much on drawing the right cards at the right time. There's very little planning ahead since you draw a new hand every turn, making it hard to form a long-term strategy. You're left reacting with the best cards you happen to draw. To complicate matters, you don't always draw higher-level cards when your opponent does, meaning that you could be left way behind for no good reason. You can mitigate that problem via deckbuilding, but only so much, and the specific nature of cards (do X if Y conditions) mean that you probably won't have a high-level version of that spell because it wasn't useful during the first few ranks. It's a mess, and I'm not going to invest too much more time in it.

Hex offers the whole package, though. Strong PvE content support is a huge deal for a TCG, and it looks like it will have the same competitive capability that MtG has. I'm currently worried about balance issues, particularly for PvE, but until I get my hands on the game, I can't tell how valid that concern is. Hex is just so much more fleshed out than these other games that it's barely in the same genre. It should be pretty easy for people to make a decision about which they want to continue playing, once they've tried all three.

And yeah, Nicosharp's thread is a great comparison.

Kami
08-18-2013, 10:06 AM
The learning curve won't be too much of an issue methinks. The main catch for casual/newbie players to the genre will be the community more than the game itself.

What is necessary is there to be a lot of players of equivalent skill level or mentors - this is part of the reason games like chess turn many new players away nowadays since the common players are all at intermediate level or higher and the beginners become disenfranchised. Assuming the game is a huge success, the player base will hopefully be massive enough to support a wide-range of player types.

I expect the Hex community will pick up the slack and not be too rough on beginners. Besides, we already have games like: Duels of the Planeswalker which have eased many, many players into the MTG/Hex type TCG systems. Games like this are always easier to learn with a buddy than solo (even with AI only).

That being said, I hope that players new to the TCG genre are willing to take the dive into a more complicated system for the bigger pay-off down the line in terms of gameplay and depth.

keroko
08-18-2013, 10:19 AM
(for me) there's reasons for hex that stick out:

- cze has designed many rules systems, the core of the whole thing is the rules system. you can look at the way someone like Corey or Ben and see from the way they speak,

how their eyes move, immediacy of recall, how they hold themselves, lots of things... that they are competent. That might sound ridiculous, but I've always been a good judge

of a mind in action I like to think, and have seen MANY that were reflections of mediocrity. it must be the heat down there, irradiates the mind to passion.

-cze keep the community fed - we sometimes feel on the forum community that we don't get enough info every day or definitive response on some of our more heated discussions on how

rules systems will be implemented. There is a feeling of ownership with the product that the KS backers have that has been new to me personally in gaming or investment frankly having not backed much on ks. The community presents

itself as very involved; involved as right of expectation due to their having fisted over cash. Engaged and demanding - this is a lot better. CZE let some of the community

folks moderate the forums, hopefully freeing up one or more of the 50 ish bodies over there (who cannot ALL be working on Hex 100%). Its had teething troubles you'd expect

from the empowerment of 'end users' so to speak; friction with other community members as to the right conduct of all involved. No big thing.
overall the community to cze chatback has a 'find strength, go faster' kind of feeling to it - at least that's what I superimpose on what I read I suppose.

But the good news is we get progress reports weekly, and they continue to fill in slots of a set 1 (and not-so-distant 2) for a group of folks that cannot get enough, ever.

and require continual progress / evolution. and who love that :)

- CZE does not over commit with knowledge preview of the rules systems of the game or its game market infrastructure. There's a lot to work out one might imagine. No matter how many years they've

been working on this there's a definate shift that occurs with being able to forget the emergency plans for funding and getting slapped with 2.5M in month or so because you

made a really good video and the time was right and no one had had the balls to side-swipe magic directly and multi platform with a nice looking client.

- CZE assaulted the tcg gaming market directly, unashamedly (compare colors, overall turn structure, mana ramp, general cast type, planeswalkers, etc etc. to mtg/mtgo) - but

did not pull a rip off those products. At first glance one might imagine that CZE power moved wizards by doing what should have been done from the start supported by

microtransactions 1 set at a time in MTG:DotP series UI wise and to a wider (in that case console) market.

^^- Instead they got great artists and made a new WoW world in depth of care in new form with some tricky twists. I wonder how long each of the core staff dreamed of

entrath's primoria years ahead of having their hands unchained to the point of being able to whisper to each other of its creation. Point being, the care is evident. Some

say some of the lore is silly, I'd agree - silly fantastic, silly fun, many shinies, glinting fangs and greedy ninjas in pve, maniacal tyrants of the arenas, irritant

challengers - as bunnies, overlegged spiders, necron style mind-link lordaronians way too close to the warp, brettonians, prarie dogs and spawn. there's metal dwarves,

pointed haired and ever perky elezen and cards that look both unique in art design regularly - (but that currently do not sport enough flavor text) The art strikes of

penny-arcade and the talented from deviantart, in all the ways thats complementary - independent and talented are the two words I'd use.

^^- i have no idea what they're doing for the novel thing. there may have been news on it ive not seen. The lore is thought out, and varied by race. they even entertain our diatribes on the roles of the sexes and races in the fantasy world. the cultures of entrath seem varied, some familiar from how we've been in history or would imagine our ideals in displaced high fantasy medieval contexts; others alien, bestial (coyotles fall to trap of the immediacy of now? shin'hare loathing the trap of their genetics), machine or unborn. There's a lot of space to work with and the writing seems good so far. not enough flavor text on cards...

^^- hex has neat things on the cards, like the doublebacks and lvling them all up and equipping them etc. champions and pve and temporary allies and raid leader buffs (which was the best 250 ks teir imo heh) and keeps and ai possibilities derived from past player actions as horrible cloud monsters you can team up with your buddies to defeat on most phones, tablets or any pc you'd care to carry around or sit at.

^^- there's to be a market for real world money. you can get lucky and get a card worth 20 USD (pulled off the top of my head) in a booster pack that costs half what the competitors have for a good while. hell, i'll take 2. you can get super fancy packs randomly with everything nice contents, and chests with bonus stuff too. so that's all rather nice and fulfilling for the trader / player / customer / CZE.

^^- some things you can't have all of everything of - like mercs. huzzah! (bite me)

^^- I for one am very happy to say CZE took the best parts from the game I confess I've claimed 'all the others are derivatives of it or can be contained and simulated in it,

it is that flexible in form and balance' << confessed mtgo fanboy.

-- one wonders if CZE will port to XBOXONE / PS4 as is x86 mono/C# with unity. i know the vita sdk was all about c#, imagine sony going to utilize in the 4 more so, they

were very keen to have people on the developer program for vita - to say the least. anyhow, more screens better. self pub rules vs costs associated with existing msft /

sony publishing? interesting times, known(ish) architectures.


so ya, i choose hex.

felmare
08-18-2013, 10:23 AM
"What is necessary is there to be a lot of players of equivalent skill level or mentors - this is part of the reason games like chess turn many new players away nowadays since the common players are all at intermediate level or higher and the beginners become disenfranchised. "
this is exactly why I decided not to get into mtgo the last couple months. instead I can join a group where everyone is going to be on or around a similar level.

Grish
08-18-2013, 10:31 AM
Based on playstyle and how eveyrthing will be ran?

Hex, Solforge/Hearthstone.

I'll play all of them so I won't become bored with one or the other, but the obvious one to stay competitive in for me is Hex.

All three are great and fun games so far and I have no reason to stop play all three.

MercuryMonkey
08-18-2013, 10:38 AM
I am much more interesting in playing HEX than either of the other two. Currently I am playing Solforge only because I don't have access to Hearthstone or Hex. I will definitely play Hearthstone and I expect I'll spend some money and play it a bit and then wait to see if they go further with it. Hearthstone seems like a solid start but without more formats and deeper mechanics I don't see myself spending much time on it. Some random thoughts on them:

One thing I dislike about both Hearthstone and Solforge is forcing archetypes. In Solforge you can only combine 2 factions, in Hearthstone having class specific cards limits what you can build. In HEX and MTG the archetypes are there but nothing forces you into using them, if you can find a crazy way to combine things you are free to do so.

I think both Solforge and Hearthstone have simplified game states to analyze while playing. With Solforge (or any lane based game) as soon as a card is played into a lane there isn't much question about what it is going to do, it's more about understanding a state machine vs. understanding what my opponent may or may not do. As others have mentioned with Hearthstone you can't really respond to anything.

On the positive side Hearthstone looks like it has a really good client.

Solforge has garbage for a client, when the server is slow to respond it doesn't even do loading messages or a busy cursor just looks frozen, what a piece of junk.

hex_colin
08-18-2013, 10:47 AM
Those are my 3 picks in that order. I have decided to invest my time and money into Hearthstone, play Solforge for the hell of it and not bother with Hex. Mostly because i have been playing WoW since HoA, have bought 3-4 boxes of each set and loved every match i've played (win or lose). I started playing the mmo because of the card game and the characters i saw on these cards. I wish Crypto the best with Hex but i have to stick with what i know and love.

Yeah i know this is'nt the place for this thread but i really don't care.

Now that I've played all of the games I can honestly tell you you're making a huge mistake. Hex blows the other 2 out of the water.

majin
08-18-2013, 11:14 AM
still playing duels of champions as i don't have a beta access to hearthstone

i'll play hearthstone when i am a but tired of hex farming (pve and pvp) as it's seems a lot better CCG then DoC IF i get a beta key

playing solforge for the daily login and 1st win, seems the 3 games reward is buggy but it's not something i'll invest time and money in. it's too random and not much of strategy involve. just hope for level 2 or 3 cards and use it

hex is still what i am looking forward too as it's the only thing that can offer the full TCG experience

Xintia
08-18-2013, 11:25 AM
Yeah I have to say SolForge has been a total disappointment and I'm glad I didn't bother paying the $20 for early access. Every time I play a match I'm left asking myself, "This was designed by some of the people behind Magic?" People who call Hearthstone too simplistic and yet say nothing similar about SolForge blow my mind. Of the two I find SolForge FAR more simplistic. And neither game will come close to the complexity of HEX. Of course "complex" does not always equal "better" in the strictest sense, but I can tell you I'll be enjoying HEX and Hearthstone far more than I have been enjoying SolForge.

Zarien
08-18-2013, 11:31 AM
For me it will be Hex. As Hex will be the only online cardgame capable of providing the full experience of a TCG with tournaments from the get go, combined with (hopefully) a solid and extensive PvE experience and great extra's like player keeps. None of the myriad of current and future games out there will be able to provide such an extensive feature set, and that is just the beginning for Hex.

I've played Solforge and while it is solid game, the style is not my taste and unfortunately the PC client has too much the feel of a tablet UI (which it essentially still is) for me to be able to enjoy it. As for Hearthstone, well I'm not in the beta, but from what I've seen so far I probably won't even play it. While the game itself is probably great fun, it's long lasting appeal is just not there for me.

I also think that as it stands now, there is nothing casual about Hearthstone at all. The current reward system seems pretty brutal for anyone but those committing a huge amount of time, which means that I'll not be able to play it besides Hex. And I do not see any reason to put a considerable amount of money into the game, and reports from those playing at the moment suggest that quite some real money will have to be spend to be able to get a decent card collection, for what is just a basic CCG with no extras.

But for those who see Hearthstone as their main game and are really into Warcraft, I do think that it will be a great game. Me, I'll be patiently waiting for the Hex alpha.

I have to agree with this mindset. The lore from hearth isn't enough to make up for its other features, like no instants. Ill wait patiently until hex alpha releases.

lucedes
08-18-2013, 11:44 AM
Hex / Hearthstone / Solforge.

Hearthstone looks like a fun time-waster, with quick matches and really simple, easy-to-digest cards and games. I was hoping Solforge would be like that when I bought the $20 beta access, but uh... it's pretty bad.

majin
08-18-2013, 11:58 AM
this is the third hex-related forum that is giving solforge a bad review. comparing to DoC which is lacking features, DoC is far more complex than it (strategy wise)

Gorgol
08-18-2013, 12:06 PM
I am deeply disappointed in SolForge. There is pretty much 0 strategy of any kind. It might just be me but it just seems to purely come down to play your biggest card and pray that when level 2 and 3 hit that your 1st hand has at least 2 of the respective leveled cards in it or that your opponents doesn't. Unfortunately a good chunk of the time I'm just dead because one or two hands don't have the higher level cards. They have people from behind Magic and THIS is the best they could come up with? Really?

DreamPuppet
08-18-2013, 12:13 PM
OP you forgot to post a link to you twitter page so we could also know what you had for breakfast. But you are correct in assuming that most sane people don't give a crap what other people do and i doubt anyone cares if you or i play any game you've mentioned.

Aradon
08-18-2013, 12:22 PM
As far as I know, Solforge had Richard Garfield giving input over the internet on the game, while a few MtG pros designed the game. I'm not sure just how much influence Garfield had/has on the game, but I think "the guys behind Magic" is pretty much entirely off the mark.

And the game's not fully released yet, so I wouldn't condemn it for a poor client quite yet. I do feel like the game has fundamental design flaws, though. These will be a little mitigated by deckbuilding theory as the game becomes more well understood, but I'm not liking where it is right now.

lucedes
08-18-2013, 12:25 PM
DoC just has the worst monetization scheme ever, because there's no trading and no real way to get the cards you need for a top tier deck. Either you grind forever, or you pour buckets of money into it, all in order to not get the card you need for your deck out of your packs. It's like the entire game is a sealed-deck tournament, only you can grind or pay for extra packs, making the balance completely arbitrarily unfair and frustrating.

Nicalapegus
08-18-2013, 12:44 PM
I can't believe some people are saying Hearthstone over Hex. The game looks fun, but it won't hold a candle to Hex. That's like choosing Pokemon over MTG.

Facilier
08-18-2013, 12:46 PM
The lore from hearth isn't enough to make up for its other features, like no instants.

What lore? HearthStone just has a bunch of references to an existing world and drags them further out of context than any of the others, with Gul'dan slapping down a Stormwind Champion, troll shieldmasters guarding a human priest... It's the fastest of the 3 games, and from what has been shown so far has the most responsive client, and (in my opinion) the best artistic style, both in terms of presentation of the "cards" in the interface, and the illustrations themselves, but... it's shallow, with no real goals to be set in the game, just something you can spend a bit on time on, like Minesweeper.

Solforge is far deeper than most of ye give it credit for, especially in terms of excellent deck building aimed at powerful synergies, and is much more playable as a free game than HearthStone. However some of the card balancing seems off, the client stability seems non-existent, and the game seems quite spartan in composition, with nebulous talk of some campaign element, poor deck construction interface, no tracking of wins:losses, and in general devoid of some video game touches such as some form of experience points or matchmaking, etc.

Both of them mostly make me want Hex to be out already.

Zarien
08-18-2013, 01:02 PM
I think HS overall will be good for HEX just because it will draw people in due to Blizzards crazy marketing power, and then those people who want more versatile TCGs may pick up HEX. Especially due to the mmo PvE side of HEX.

bofedy
08-18-2013, 01:05 PM
"What is necessary is there to be a lot of players of equivalent skill level or mentors - this is part of the reason games like chess turn many new players away nowadays since the common players are all at intermediate level or higher and the beginners become disenfranchised. "
this is exactly why I decided not to get into mtgo the last couple months. instead I can join a group where everyone is going to be on or around a similar level.

This is why i joined a guild and i hope others do as well as this will be the key to make someone keep playing the game untill they understand it. Personally i prefer when there beter than me so i can learn tricks and be like wow thats so cool i will try that out and add my own thing to it and thats why i like my guild we have people who have never played a tcg and people all the way up to those who will win the first championship i hope.

Unhurtable
08-18-2013, 01:16 PM
Those are my 3 picks in that order. I have decided to invest my time and money into Hearthstone, play Solforge for the hell of it and not bother with Hex. Mostly because i have been playing WoW since HoA, have bought 3-4 boxes of each set and loved every match i've played (win or lose). I started playing the mmo because of the card game and the characters i saw on these cards. I wish Crypto the best with Hex but i have to stick with what i know and love.

Yeah i know this is'nt the place for this thread but i really don't care.

For someone who doesn't care you sure took the effort to make a thread about it.

"I hate your hair but I really don't care" just doesn't make much sense.

Anyway, I'd love to try out Hearthstone but from what I've seen its way too basic for my taste, but you actually have to try stuff before making judgements :)

Kroan
08-18-2013, 01:25 PM
I can't take anyone seriously who's putting SolForge before either Hex or Hearthstone, and I didn't even have to play either Hex or Hearthstone. I've played SolForge the last couple of days, and the quality of the product is so low... I can't believe Kibler and Garfield aren't ashamed of what kind of product they delivered (or rather what kind of product their name is attached to in Garfield's case), even if it's supposed to be an "open beta".

Besides the technical flaws, the game itself can't be called a true TCG. The mechanics are simplistic at best, and involve more luck than skill. The "collectible"-part is neglectable right now. The art on a lot of cards is a bit underwhelming at least.

fitzle
08-18-2013, 01:35 PM
I haven't checked out hearthstone yet but I probably will. After all, why not play all these games that are free anyway! If you got the time. I'm not sure how much of a monetary commitment I'd make to any of these games yet. Well, above the kickstarter anyway!

Gorgol
08-18-2013, 01:55 PM
It's the fastest of the 3 games, and from what has been shown so far has the most responsive client, and (in my opinion) the best artistic style, both in terms of presentation of the "cards" in the interface, and the illustrations themselves, but... it's shallow, with no real goals to be set in the game, just something you can spend a bit on time on, like Minesweeper.
So it sounds like Hearthstone is the dumb blonde with D cup boobs. Fun to get some action with but that's about it.

Mathaw
08-18-2013, 02:00 PM
What an odd post.

I might give Hearthstone a go because it looks fun, but hardly comparable to Hex, far more casual. Compare it to MTGO and you'll get your incentive.

hex_colin
08-18-2013, 02:00 PM
It's the fastest of the 3 games, and from what has been shown so far has the most responsive client....

Don't be fooled by what you've seen of Hex on Twitch streams - it's at least as responsive as Hearthstone IRL.

Vengus
08-18-2013, 02:02 PM
Hearthstone does what it is supposed to do and it does it well. That is, being a casual game people can play when they are on the bus, the train or whatever. It's designed as an easy to understand game with quick matches. Blizzard wanted to test if they could design a fun game with a small team (+/- 15 devs) and Hearthstone is the result. If you're someone who just wants to do quick matches once in a while Hearthstone is the way to go. For those who want to invest a lot of time in a MMOTCG a game like HEX is the better choice because there will be a lot more content and the TCG has a lot more strategy and depth.

Banquetto
08-18-2013, 02:40 PM
Looking forward to seeing what Hearthstone is like but honestly I expect it to keep me hooked as long as Duel of Champions (i.e. not terribly long).

Solforge just sounds odd. Doesn't appeal.

So Hex is still the main thing on my radar.

Although, I never would have guess this would happen, but I'm still pretty fiercely hooked on Rise of Mythos / Kings & Legends (they renamed it). Really fun game.

Gulbech
08-18-2013, 03:23 PM
Although, I never would have guess this would happen, but I'm still pretty fiercely hooked on Rise of Mythos / Kings & Legends (they renamed it). Really fun game.

Play it too, but that game is only about pay to win. If you want to compete you need to invest a insane amount of money. Skills wont help much against better cards.

I am going to play Hearthstone for fun, but HEX will be my primary game. Comparing the two games are like comparing LUDO to Chess :P

Facilier
08-18-2013, 03:28 PM
Don't be fooled by what you've seen of Hex on Twitch streams - it's at least as responsive as Hearthstone IRL.

It isn't just about buttons working, it's just a really slick overall interface: you can drag cards to cast them, you can just click them, you can goof off clicking on scenery in your opponent's turn, the loading bars are fun, the client makes it really clear which creatures can attack, resources are never caught beneath your hand of cards or creatures, the combat log is intuitive.

Whatever about the choices Blizzard make for their games these days, their polish does not have a contender in PC gaming.

jimmywolf
08-18-2013, 03:39 PM
I think HS overall will be good for HEX just because it will draw people in due to Blizzards crazy marketing power, and then those people who want more versatile TCGs may pick up HEX. Especially due to the mmo PvE side of HEX.

agree i enjoy magic DOTP for that same reason, it give you a taste of the more complex games were you have more control an options, why i was very happy too back hex.

Barkam
08-18-2013, 04:12 PM
I am surprised how Solforge is mentioned here instead of Scrolls. Scrolls is more appropriate comparison for Hex and Heartstone.

Nicalapegus
08-18-2013, 04:27 PM
Scrolls is a failure of a game. Huge buyers remorse on that one.

Nicalapegus
08-18-2013, 04:28 PM
It isn't just about buttons working, it's just a really slick overall interface: you can drag cards to cast them, you can just click them, you can goof off clicking on scenery in your opponent's turn, the loading bars are fun, the client makes it really clear which creatures can attack, resources are never caught beneath your hand of cards or creatures, the combat log is intuitive.

Whatever about the choices Blizzard make for their games these days, their polish does not have a contender in PC gaming.

No matter how shiny a turd is, it's still a turd.

felmare
08-18-2013, 04:33 PM
Whatever about the choices Blizzard make for their games these days, their polish does not have a contender in PC gaming.
polish over content? no thank you. this is the reason that diablo 3 lost 75% of its playerbase in the first 2 months

fido_one
08-18-2013, 04:47 PM
I can only really comment on Solforge as I have been participating in the alpha/beta.

I want to like it more, really I do - I can't though. I think other people have been better at articulating the reasons why it has challenges in gameplay, but now that beta is out something else is readily apparent: it is wholly embracing the pay to win mentality.

Sans resources, you'll be hard pressed to build decks that aren't completely composed of rares/heroics/legendaries - they obviously know this when you go in to buy boosters, as the price skyrockets for your token rare/heroic/legendary booster cards. I doubt I can play with other people without slamming a great deal of money towards it.

It's like duel of champions - so close to a great game, but blown on a couple of key elements that rears its head as soon as you play anything that isn't a computer.

Anyways, I was excited about Solforge until Beta, now I'm not. What a shame.

vulture27
08-18-2013, 05:04 PM
I can only really comment on Solforge as I have been participating in the alpha/beta.

I want to like it more, really I do - I can't though. I think other people have been better at articulating the reasons why it has challenges in gameplay, but now that beta is out something else is readily apparent: it is wholly embracing the pay to win mentality.

Sans resources, you'll be hard pressed to build decks that aren't completely composed of rares/heroics/legendaries - they obviously know this when you go in to buy boosters, as the price skyrockets for your token rare/heroic/legendary booster cards. I doubt I can play with other people without slamming a great deal of money towards it.

It's like duel of champions - so close to a great game, but blown on a couple of key elements that rears its head as soon as you play anything that isn't a computer.

Anyways, I was excited about Solforge until Beta, now I'm not. What a shame.

Likewise. Tried out Solforge due to this thread, lost interest within two hours. It is the worst pay to win game I have ever played.

Barkam
08-18-2013, 05:08 PM
I can only really comment on Solforge as I have been participating in the alpha/beta.

I want to like it more, really I do - I can't though. I think other people have been better at articulating the reasons why it has challenges in gameplay, but now that beta is out something else is readily apparent: it is wholly embracing the pay to win mentality.

Sans resources, you'll be hard pressed to build decks that aren't completely composed of rares/heroics/legendaries - they obviously know this when you go in to buy boosters, as the price skyrockets for your token rare/heroic/legendary booster cards. I doubt I can play with other people without slamming a great deal of money towards it.

It's like duel of champions - so close to a great game, but blown on a couple of key elements that rears its head as soon as you play anything that isn't a computer.

Anyways, I was excited about Solforge until Beta, now I'm not. What a shame.

I feel the same way. For me, I was just barely able to get through the tutorial. Though I feel like if Duel of Champions had a booster draft format, I think it would have taken off. Duel of Champions is a way better game than Solforge.

Mathaw
08-18-2013, 05:09 PM
Great comparison,

HS sounds a lot like Shadow Era.

I wonder if HEX will eventually add hero weapon and armor.

My thoughts exactly, could have been describing Shadow Era. Although I assume that the wow tcg came before SE? (Assuming that hearthstone resembles wow tcg)

Deathfog
08-18-2013, 05:10 PM
I am enjoying playing Hearthstone right now, even though it is limited in strategic scope. It is the ultimate game to play casually until Hex comes out.

The only thing I don't like about HS so far are the ultra huge cards, like Pyroblast, 8 mana for 10 damage to the hero. There are a few of these that are basically massive powerhouses that will easily see play as few games are decided by turn 10 or even 15.

DanTheMeek
08-18-2013, 05:13 PM
Looking forward to seeing what Hearthstone is like but honestly I expect it to keep me hooked as long as Duel of Champions (i.e. not terribly long).

Solforge just sounds odd. Doesn't appeal.

So Hex is still the main thing on my radar.

Although, I never would have guess this would happen, but I'm still pretty fiercely hooked on Rise of Mythos / Kings & Legends (they renamed it). Really fun game.

This captures my feelings exactly, even my experience with duel of champions. Rise of Mythos has been all I've felt like playing for some time and I'm hopeful Hex will give me that same level of enjoyment. Till then RoM has definitely kept me hooked, really love the feeling of progression the MMO style of balance gives and the match making, while far from perfect, has kept me playing people with similar value in cards for the most part so the fact that people who've been playing longer or who just spent hundreds of dollars have clearly superior cards hasn't detracted from my experience much if it all.

Deathfog
08-18-2013, 05:14 PM
Solforge just isn't doing it for me, same thing I'm hearing for several friends. Hearthstone is fun, probably the king of casual MtG style games. It'll likely get tedious as time goes as there aren't many options per turn, but its good for a fast game. Hex is very hardcore, which is where most of the hours spent on these type of games go. If you are going to spend time playing card games, you want the most strategically complex thing you can get 90% of the time.

I just don't see Heartstone as competition for Hex, they aren't going after different markets per se, but they serve different purposes.

WarcraftinJapan
08-18-2013, 05:16 PM
Played SolForge and also not so impressed. Comes across as a social game to me, with powerful cards simply being that. powerful cards. I am sure someone somewhere will tell me there is a lot of skill involved, but I don't feel like sinking cash into it and therefore I get beat by legendary's.

All good. I would not expect to win wow without the right cards, but the gameplay also doesn't appeal to me.

Will wait for Hex/Wow.

Xenavire
08-18-2013, 05:29 PM
Hex. After playing several different TCG's, I just cannot stand games that are too simple, and Hearthstone just looks like it is directed at people with lower IQ's, or those with absolutely no TCG experience.

Solforge looks a little better, but I just cannot be bothered trying to learn a lane combat game after Yugioh. Yugioh was barely lane combat, and it allowed a fair amount of freedom, and I would stilll be playing if they had kept the meta balanced.

Hex to me is literally Magic+. The successor to Magic, the protege, the thing that makes me glad to be a nerd. After MTG went through changes a few years ago, I just quit, and never had a reason or an opportunity to get back - Hex is the opportunity and the reason, and it is a million times more accessible and interesting.

So Hex is my TCG of choice, and will be for years to come.

funktion
08-18-2013, 05:39 PM
I like steak sandwiches, but the shop down the corner isnt opening until the end of september. So instead of a steak sandwich i ate a vegetarian taco from across the street... it was not a steak sandwich. Vegetarian tacos will never compare to steak sandwiches.
I know nobody cares whether i like steak sandwiches and i dont care if you care, but im going to start a thread about vegetarian tacos anyways.

/thread
For realsies though, talk about something interesting people...

iscariotrex
08-18-2013, 06:53 PM
Less fail, MOAR steak sandwiches!!! You are awesome Function.

Shrennan
08-18-2013, 09:10 PM
Hex is the one and only TCG that I will invest actual money into (although I did opt into the closed beta for SolForge but I meant in terms of buying packs and whatnot). To me, SolForge and Hearthstone seem like they lack the complexity and deep mechanics of Hex in addition to the thought put into the free-to-play model and the PVE and PVP mechanics and game modes. The one thing that I will say about Hearthstone is that the UI and level of polish will probably be unmatched, but a true TCG has trading mechanics and I prefer my card games with a deep system that is easy to play, but hard to master.

Ghost
08-18-2013, 09:30 PM
Gotta be honest, I am still having a *lot* of trouble coming to grips with the land based resource system in Hex.

I quit Magic 10 years ago because other card games were coming out that improved on its shitty resource system. I have been VERY happy playing World of Warcraft TCG for the last 7ish years and have felt like it was Magic+. WoWTCG has similar gameplay to MTG in a lot of ways but with no mana screw.

Hex just feels like a regression from WoWTCG's game mechanics. Since they are both games from the same company, I think I will always be comparing them and seeing how Hexes game engine is coming up short in comparison.

Nicalapegus
08-18-2013, 09:32 PM
Gotta be honest, I am still having a *lot* of trouble coming to grips with the land based resource system in Hex.

I quit Magic 10 years ago because other card games were coming out that improved on its shitty resource system. I have been VERY happy playing World of Warcraft TCG for the last 7ish years and have felt like it was Magic+. WoWTCG has similar gameplay to MTG in a lot of ways but with no mana screw.

Hex just feels like a regression from WoWTCG's game mechanics. Since they are both games from the same company, I think I will always be comparing them and seeing how Hexes game engine is coming up short in comparison.

Hex's resource system is a step up from MTG's though. The threshold helps prevent mana screw, and the charge powers help mitigate mana flood.

Dralon
08-18-2013, 09:55 PM
From playing the game a bit, Hex does give a little protection against flood with the charge power, but threshold doesn't really help with mana screw. If you don't get the crystals, you don't get the crystals.

As for the original topic, let it die out now. I know people like "my game is better than your game" threads....but come on guys, time to let this one go.

Mr.Funsocks
08-18-2013, 09:59 PM
Gotta be honest, I am still having a *lot* of trouble coming to grips with the land based resource system in Hex.

I quit Magic 10 years ago because other card games were coming out that improved on its shitty resource system. I have been VERY happy playing World of Warcraft TCG for the last 7ish years and have felt like it was Magic+. WoWTCG has similar gameplay to MTG in a lot of ways but with no mana screw.

Hex just feels like a regression from WoWTCG's game mechanics. Since they are both games from the same company, I think I will always be comparing them and seeing how Hexes game engine is coming up short in comparison.

From what I understand, WoWTCG's system is a guaranteed resource system, like Hearthstone. This is a major flaw in design, because it removes a massive component of the game's complexity. It makes games more predictable in flow, as you KNOW on turn X you will have X resources, and can play card X. And there's no way to prevent it for the other player. This makes it so you can plan very exactly for how your deck will run, and anything that might add uncertainty becomes an impossible addition. Risky cards are unacceptable, because your opponent will have a guaranteed card of power x at that time.

Mana screw/flood isn't much of a problem if you build a deck right though, once you learn how to balance a curve and whatnot, it's not a big deal. And it is, again, a huge component of proper deckbuilding.

Nicalapegus
08-18-2013, 10:30 PM
From playing the game a bit, Hex does give a little protection against flood with the charge power, but threshold doesn't really help with mana screw. If you don't get the crystals, you don't get the crystals.

Excuse me, color screw. That's what I meant by it.

As for these issues, that's kind of the point of TCGs... to build a balanced deck (and that includes making sure you have the right amount of mana sources)

hacky
08-18-2013, 11:09 PM
From what I understand, WoWTCG's system is a guaranteed resource system, like Hearthstone. This is a major flaw in design, because it removes a massive component of the game's complexity. It makes games more predictable in flow, as you KNOW on turn X you will have X resources, and can play card X. And there's no way to prevent it for the other player. This makes it so you can plan very exactly for how your deck will run, and anything that might add uncertainty becomes an impossible addition. Risky cards are unacceptable, because your opponent will have a guaranteed card of power x at that time.

While this analysis is true for Hearthstone, this analysis is NOT true for WoWTCG. In WoWTCG, a player must place a card from their hand as a resource, and this is the key difference between it and Hearthstone.

You can guarantee having X resources on turn X, but you cannot guarantee having a card to play if you do so. Players draw one card per turn, and playing a card + placing a resource takes two cards. Without drawing cards (which also cost resources), a player cannot make it to higher numbers of resources and still have options to play cards.

And given how combat works in WoWTCG, it is very possible and common for lower-cost cards to trade up with higher-cost cards. Missing a critical turn of play is as fatal as being mana screwed/flooded. WoWTCG trades mana screw for curve screw.

---

In addition, the WoWTCG resource system adds a massive component of the game's complexity to replace anything it loses by being a guaranteed resource system. Choosing the card that is used as a resource is a major factor at every point in a game.

Playing a deck with a lot of quests/locations (i.e. their purpose is land-like) leads to more situations that resemble mana flood, and most WoWTCG decks will place unneeded cards as resources when they need to. But that situation is not always ideal:
- Will this powerful 5-cost card that I am resourcing on turn 1 be useful later?
- Which of my two 3-drops will I resource to play the other?
- I want to play my 6-drop on turn 6, but I have no other cards in my hand on turn 5. I draw a powerful card that costs less than 6. Do I resource it to play my 6-drop? Play the card and keep my 6-drop?
- Can I afford to not play a card this turn and just resource? (often using a hero flip or drawing cards instead)

All of these decisions, especially in the early game when there are far more than two options, have a role in how a game will play out. Making the correct decision, given a player's knowledge of their opponent's possibilities from their hero and played cards, is the difference between having the correct card at the right time and regretting using a card as a resource several turns earlier.

---

I also do not understand why "risky cards are unacceptable" is unique to WoWTCG. The goal of every TCG I have ever played competitively is to make the deck as consistent as possible.

In MTG/HEX, you'll do this by balancing resources to your card costs. In WoWTCG, you do this by balancing resource placement timing/options with your card costs. It's different, and just as compelling, and that is why WoWTCG remains one of the most fun resource systems for myself and many other players here.

Mr.Funsocks
08-18-2013, 11:28 PM
Ah, yeah, that resource system. I played some random CCG that had that once. I hated it.

And since CZE is full of game designers much better than either of us, I'll just trust them, since they've spoken at length about why they chose this system. And since, much as WoWTCG is loved, it's nowhere near as long-lived (since it came out more recently obv), competitive, or popular as MtG, I'm going to assume that this resource system is very effective.

RanaDunes
08-18-2013, 11:47 PM
I'm playing SolForge at the moment (backer) and been playing for... mm damn, almost a year now?
The game after the open beta release (with 180 cards) became much better. It's a good game, very casual and soothing to the brain. I play it while listening to music. I love it and I'm addicted to it.


However, it's too different than Hex. SolForge to me is a casual activity that I want to do when I want to relax. Just like Knitting. Hex, in the other hand, is more strategic and serious (I know because it's almost identical to MTG's mechanic wise). I know TCG and I know how Hex will play.

I stopped spending money or even playing MTGO because of Hex I also hated MTG recent PlanesWalker crap because of the Interface being EXTREMELY SLOW. My only concern with Hex is Priority Passing and Responsiveness of the client. If the passing in Hex is as fast as MTGO then I'm good!

Now, Hearthstone....
Hahahahahahaha...

God... yeah... it's a lot more casual than Hex. Very very easy to get into, which is ideal for people new to TCG/CCG genre. That's the whole concept of Blizzard I guess... they delve in a genre and make a game designed for the lowest common denominator average retard Joe. Wide audience, bigger market... Cha Ching. Great polish, great execution, refined... but with clumsy shiny happy-cartoonish art direction. Definitely not a game I would spend money on.

zmrklic
08-18-2013, 11:53 PM
Ah, yeah, that resource system. I played some random CCG that had that once. I hated it.

And since CZE is full of game designers much better than either of us, I'll just trust them, since they've spoken at length about why they chose this system. And since, much as WoWTCG is loved, it's nowhere near as long-lived (since it came out more recently obv), competitive, or popular as MtG, I'm going to assume that this resource system is very effective.

There are props and cons, but row decisions are hard, and that adds to skill rather than you loose depth.

RanaDunes
08-19-2013, 12:05 AM
There are props and cons, but row decisions are hard, and that adds to skill rather than you loose depth.

I don't like "play a card from your hand for resource" kind of system (WoW TCG and ShadowEra).
I also don't like the "every turn get a resource for free" system either (Hearthstone).

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't CZE create WoW TCG? and now their new prject Hex is using MTGs 5-mana resource system (yeah, they improved it with the threshold mechanic which is good).

That tells you something.... I've played many TCGs... MANY... LCG too.
The best resource system for me is MTG's. I hate generic resource system that works on every card. I also dislike resource-less card games. Having different power times that can fuel specific kind of magic schools is FUN. Look how old MTG is and still popular.


I'm glad that for once a developer does everything I want in a game. To me, which is a very biased opinion, I think the guys at CZE know what they're doing. Unlike.... say... other competitor who's creating a digital card game... They're really not as experienced as CZE in this particular field.

zmrklic
08-19-2013, 12:09 AM
It sure is personal preference, i know lot of people that likes better wowtcg resource system ( like me). Mana flood and screw are no fun. Specially in limited it creates too many top-deck modes. I find wowtcg limited superior to MTG limited.

hacky
08-19-2013, 12:13 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't CZE create WoW TCG? and now their new prject Hex is using MTGs 5-mana resource system (yeah, they improved it with the threshold mechanic which is good).

That tells you something.... I've played many TCGs... MANY... LCG too.
The best resource system for me is MTG's. I hate generic resource system that works on every card. I also dislike resource-less card games. Having different power times that can fuel specific kind of magic schools is FUN. Look how old MTG is and still popular.

Penny Arcade Deckbuilding Game had a resource system, and now their new project DC Deckbuilding game uses a different resource system. Does that mean that the DC deckbuilding game's resource system is better? (and yes, both are CZE games as well)

No, it means that the games are different. Different games with different systems can co-exist. And heaven forbid, someone can like both! Or even like and dislike some aspects of one and the other at the same time!

I don't understand why you're knocking something that you sound like you haven't tried in-depth, being a generalist at card games. Personal opinion is not objective fact.

Jonesy
08-19-2013, 12:28 AM
CZE specifically said they chose to use the magic style resource system simply because newbs would never row a playable card and sit at two resources all game and cry. That doesn't mean magic style is better, in fact to me that means it's worse, but they want the game to be simpler.

As for the topic at hand, I'm most excited about hex because I feel that being able to do things on your opponents turn opens up the game to far far more strategy and game design. Plus magic is fun, it's just a ripoff, and this has the potential to be magic+ at a discount (though the fact you cant grind for pvp cards sucks and means not much of a discount).

I've played a lot of solforge, and all of you who think it has no strategy and is all luck based are just new to the game. It appears that way at first but then (hopefully, i fyoure smart) realize what you're doing wrong and the skill factor is high. The way in which you plan ahead is simply different from other card games. I can honestly tell you that anyone who says its all luck, or you just play the biggest guy each turn, etc etc, is not someone worth listening to. Solforge fucked things up royally by making 1/6th the set legendary (thus ridiculously expensive to be competitive), but the rest of the game is fantastic. I'm still more excited about hex but we'll see what happens when i get to play both and compare.

I was sposed to get hearthstone beta today but my blizzard hookup failed me, at least so far. From the many duels i've watched it looks like a watered down wowtcg. But it still looks like a lot of fun, especially their version of draft, and while it's by far the least likely to get my money (its the only one tha thasnt gotten any yet), I still look forward to diving in and seeing what it has to offer.

Mr.Funsocks
08-19-2013, 12:42 AM
CZE specifically said they chose to use the magic style resource system simply because newbs would never row a playable card and sit at two resources all game and cry.

No... they didn't. They gave several reasons and lengthy discussions of why they chose this system, including things like tempo and pacing, specifically contrasting it with what they didn't like about WoWTCG's...

hacky
08-19-2013, 01:09 AM
No... they didn't. They gave several reasons and lengthy discussions of why they chose this system, including things like tempo and pacing, specifically contrasting it with what they didn't like about WoWTCG's...

You may want to quote this "specifically contrasting", because I second Jonesy.

WoWTCG is actually harder than MTG. WoW has one main phase where all card plays, resource placement, and attacks can all happen in any order. The number of possible play choices available to a player at any given point of the game can be overwhelming to an inexperienced TCG player, and all this in a game where the order of choices definitely does matter.

MTG's resources, lands, are an explicit card type with one purpose. It is far easier for an inexperienced player to understand "this card type is for resources" than it is to explain "this card type is for resources, but any of these cards could be resources too". MTG's phases allow for a smaller set of actions to occur each phase, and completely separates combat into its own phase that happens at exactly one time. It's a lot easier for new players to keep track of what is supposed to happen when.

The main "contrast" between using the Hex/MTG system over WoWTCG is really in how troops interact, and not how the resource system works. It's a side benefit that using the MTG-style resource system makes it easier to teach to newer players, and harder to screw up at the critical first few games.

---

And strictly in terms of software design, it is much easier to code when there are fewer possible interactions at any given time. Think of the complexity that is saved by making all resources colorless, and not having to deal with exhausting which specific resource card at any given time.

zmrklic
08-19-2013, 01:16 AM
No... they didn't. They gave several reasons and lengthy discussions of why they chose this system, including things like tempo and pacing, specifically contrasting it with what they didn't like about WoWTCG's...

You really have no idea what you are talking about. What they did was business wise, but has nothing to do with what you are posting. Treshold however is very interesting upgrade. The fact that Wowtcg is not great for digital implementation does not mean system is not good for physical game.

RanaDunes
08-19-2013, 01:21 AM
Penny Arcade Deckbuilding Game had a resource system, and now their new project DC Deckbuilding game uses a different resource system. Does that mean that the DC deckbuilding game's resource system is better? (and yes, both are CZE games as well)

No, it means that the games are different. Different games with different systems can co-exist. And heaven forbid, someone can like both! Or even like and dislike some aspects of one and the other at the same time!

I don't understand why you're knocking something that you sound like you haven't tried in-depth. Personal opinion is not objective fact.


Of course both system are different and having different games is a good thing.


Oh I have tried that thing in depth. I was high rank in ShadowEra using WoW TCG original resource system. Even Pokemon has more depth than ShadowEra. It's not only the resource system that suck but the inability to do a reaction, which a lot of games are guilty of. It's your opponent's turn? You can't do anything you just wait and watch.

I clearly dislike that system and I am stating my opinion based on an extended personal experience. I don't mind playing different games but I also have all the rights to say "this game is better." and I'm entitled to my opinion. I also base that opinion on specific solid reasons, mainly the game mechanics and explain why.

Cheers.

hacky
08-19-2013, 01:26 AM
Oh I have tried that thing in depth. I was high rank in ShadowEra using WoW TCG original resource system. Even Pokemon has more depth than ShadowEra. It's not only the resource system that suck but the inability to do a reaction, which a lot of games are guilty of. It's your opponent's turn? You can't do anything you just wait and watch.

I clearly dislike that system and I am stating my opinion based on an extended personal experience. I don't mind playing different games but I also have all the rights to say "this game is better." and I'm entitled to my opinion. I also base that opinion on specific solid reasons, mainly the game mechanics and explain why.

Cheers.

No worries. I would recommend giving WoWTCG another try if you get a chance, if your bad experience with its resource system is ShadowEra. When that game originally came out, my group did refer to it as a "bad WoWTCG clone", though from others playing the game, and not from my own personal experience.

Though, since you like the system Hex is using, and I like the system Hex is using, I'm sure I'll see you Hex somewhere. :)

RanaDunes
08-19-2013, 01:29 AM
I've played a lot of solforge, and all of you who think it has no strategy and is all luck based are just new to the game. It appears that way at first but then (hopefully, i fyoure smart) realize what you're doing wrong and the skill factor is high. The way in which you plan ahead is simply different from other card games. I can honestly tell you that anyone who says its all luck, or you just play the biggest guy each turn, etc etc, is not someone worth listening to. Solforge fucked things up royally by making 1/6th the set legendary (thus ridiculously expensive to be competitive), but the rest of the game is fantastic. I'm still more excited about hex but we'll see what happens when i get to play both and compare.


I agree with that.

SolForge is surprisingly very interesting to play despite its extreme limitations (design philosophy). If it's based on luck how come I'm winning 90% of my games? :p True, I've ended up with an Overpowered deck that should be nerfed but that's only a proof that you can get creative with deck building.

Also decisions to make in SolForge is respectful. You can outplay someone skill wise by choosing how you play a card and which card to play (if both of you playing the same deck, drawing the same cards). There's also this "Level up" cards strategy going. Do you feel being rushed? or can you just level up weak level-1 cards and get away with it?

RanaDunes
08-19-2013, 01:33 AM
No worries. I would recommend giving WoWTCG another try if you get a chance, if your bad experience with its resource system is ShadowEra. When that game originally came out, my group did refer to it as a "bad WoWTCG clone", though from others playing the game, and not from my own personal experience.

Though, since you like the system Hex is using, and I like the system Hex is using, I'm sure I'll see you Hex somewhere. :)

Oh don't get me wrong I played ShadowEra a lot and I enjoyed it. But like you said it's different and I tend to enjoy the resource system Hex went with a lot more.

Haha I'm looking forward to play with or against you! :D
But I guarantee you that you're going to "meet" this name in Hex *cough* I'm a vampire *cough* (I'm not sure if I'm allowed to spoil this shit or not... I didn't sign up any NDA :p)


Cheers!

zmrklic
08-19-2013, 01:36 AM
As i think for limited wowtcg is best historically it is hard to make balance in constructed wowtcg system when come to card draw. If its too easy to draw cards, then it can become more important to draw cards, then making decision what you actually play. If quests are nerfed, then games can become too dependent of hitting the curve.

Barkam
08-19-2013, 01:42 AM
CZE will never admit this but the main reason they went back to using MTG's resource system is to induce more luck in the game. They say that it makes game more exciting, sure it does because now the game is less deterministic due to luck. The WoWTCG resource system swung the skill/luck pendulum too far to the skill side which disheartened "average joe" people in playing. I am a strong gamer and I still get disheartened/scared/uncomfortable when fighting someone that can possible be better than me. Now imagine a situation in which you know their deck is better than yours or is a hard counter against your deck. MTG resource system dulls that because you have a chance on winning that tournament prize if your opponent gets mana screwed or flooded. Let's be honest with ourselves here and admit that you have felt the same way before. Now, it is unfortunate for them to get mana screwed or flooded, but it gives people hope. And hope is a powerful thing. So powerful that it is has really made MtG so successful in so many ways.

RanaDunes
08-19-2013, 01:52 AM
CZE will never admit this but the main reason they went back to using MTG's resource system is to induce more luck in the game. They say that it makes game more exciting, sure it does because now the game is less deterministic due to luck. The WoWTCG resource system swung the skill/luck pendulum too far to the skill side which disheartened "average joe" people in playing.

You want skill, play Mage Wars where there's no drawing.
Every game involved in drawing a card has a tremendous luck factor and saying the resource system actually increase this factor is hilarious. Maybe you're confusing your inability constructing proper decks with luck? I can't remember the last time I Mulligan-ed a bad hand in MTG but I know a lot of incompetent players either get flooded with resource cards or none. Even if you do get a bad hand, which is rare if you know what you're doing, you can always Mulligan.

The five resource system enhances the game experience especially in the deck building area. Some people get overwhelmed by this and they'd rather not worry too much about figuring out what works and what doesn't. They'd rather just.... throw cards and it will work regardless. Boring.

zmrklic
08-19-2013, 02:02 AM
I can't remember the last time I Mulligan-ed a bad hand in MTG but I know a lot of incompetent players either get flooded with resource cards or none. Even if you do get a bad hand, which is rare if you know what you're doing, you can always Mulligan.

The five resource system enhances the game experience especially in the deck building area. .

Lol - you must be pro :)

Cannot argue with second sentence, it does give more diversity in constructed deckbuilding.

dogmod
08-19-2013, 02:09 AM
CZE will never admit this but the main reason they went back to using MTG's resource system is to induce more luck in the game. They say that it makes game more exciting, sure it does because now the game is less deterministic due to luck. The WoWTCG resource system swung the skill/luck pendulum too far to the skill side which disheartened "average joe" people in playing. I am a strong gamer and I still get disheartened/scared/uncomfortable when fighting someone that can possible be better than me. Now imagine a situation in which you know their deck is better than yours or is a hard counter against your deck. MTG resource system dulls that because you have a chance on winning that tournament prize if your opponent gets mana screwed or flooded. Let's be honest with ourselves here and admit that you have felt the same way before. Now, it is unfortunate for them to get mana screwed or flooded, but it gives people hope. And hope is a powerful thing. So powerful that it is has really made MtG so successful in so many ways.

Except they specifically DID talk about this and referenced the luck vs skill dynamic and how it impacts players perceptions and fun. And they said basically what you are espousing here.

Barkam
08-19-2013, 02:18 AM
Except they specifically DID talk about this and referenced the luck vs skill dynamic and how it impacts players perceptions and fun. And they said basically what you are espousing here.

Must have been a stream I missed. I saw the early Ben Stoll interview. He never said luck in that interview. He was very careful with his words. You can actually catch him bite his tongue to not to step on land mines.

Ghost
08-19-2013, 02:52 AM
Every game involved in drawing a card has a tremendous luck factor and saying the resource system actually increase this factor is hilarious. Maybe you're confusing your inability constructing proper decks with luck? I can't remember the last time I Mulligan-ed a bad hand in MTG but I know a lot of incompetent players either get flooded with resource cards or none. Even if you do get a bad hand, which is rare if you know what you're doing, you can always Mulligan.

The five resource system enhances the game experience especially in the deck building area. Some people get overwhelmed by this and they'd rather not worry too much about figuring out what works and what doesn't. They'd rather just.... throw cards and it will work regardless. Boring.

This is possibly one of the dumbest things I have ever read from someone who is claiming to know what they are talking about in regards to trading card games.

Unhurtable
08-19-2013, 04:01 AM
polish over content? no thank you. this is the reason that diablo 3 lost 75% of its playerbase in the first 2 months

75%? Try 95%. And it wasn't terribly well designed either.


You want skill, play Mage Wars where there's no drawing.
Every game involved in drawing a card has a tremendous luck factor and saying the resource system actually increase this factor is hilarious. Maybe you're confusing your inability constructing proper decks with luck? I can't remember the last time I Mulligan-ed a bad hand in MTG but I know a lot of incompetent players either get flooded with resource cards or none. Even if you do get a bad hand, which is rare if you know what you're doing, you can always Mulligan.

The five resource system enhances the game experience especially in the deck building area. Some people get overwhelmed by this and they'd rather not worry too much about figuring out what works and what doesn't. They'd rather just.... throw cards and it will work regardless. Boring.

Draw 7 cards, all lands.
"Okay I'll just mulligan."
Draw 6 cards, all lands.

Yes this never happens..... Lets just assume this is impossible and move on.
Saying that good players can't be flooded/screwed is like saying "poker players never get a bad hand". That just makes no sense.

Why is 5 such a good number? Can't it be a 10 resource system? Or 3?

RanaDunes
08-19-2013, 04:28 AM
This is possibly one of the dumbest things I have ever read from someone who is claiming to know what they are talking about in regards to trading card games.

Care to elaborate why?

RanaDunes
08-19-2013, 04:34 AM
75%? Try 95%. And it wasn't terribly well designed either.



Draw 7 cards, all lands.
"Okay I'll just mulligan."
Draw 6 cards, all lands.

Yes this never happens..... Lets just assume this is impossible and move on.
Saying that good players can't be flooded/screwed is like saying "poker players never get a bad hand". That just makes no sense.

Why is 5 such a good number? Can't it be a 10 resource system? Or 3?

Of course it never happens.

You also act as if your opponent actually gets an advantage. You both are playing the same game and bad hands do happen. Like I said if a game involves drawing cards then luck is a big factor. That's the nature of this genre.

But saying WoW TCG requires more skill while Hex five resources is purposelessly designed for a stupider audience (because you hide behind the luck it provides....?? that's what the other post said anyway) is just laughable.

Deepdigger
08-19-2013, 05:07 AM
All this discussion about luck. Regardless of the chosen design, it is a symetrical game. So everything lucky or unlucky can happen to your opponent too.

Why do people play luck based slotmachines even if they know (or should know) that it is not possible to win.

Even more, why are some slot machines so much more profitable than others.
--> Because it is all in the presentation and how much fun you make losing and winning.

Personaly i think you need winstreaks and losstreaks (due to luck) to feel connected to something.
Ask a poker-player what is his most memorable hand and so on. I bet most of the time it are these extremes that stay in mind.

I think there is nothing more boring than knowing in advance which deck will win 100%.

Mathaw
08-19-2013, 05:50 AM
Ah, yeah, that resource system. I played some random CCG that had that once. I hated it.

I think they both have their place. As others have pointed out using cards from your deck as resources seems to suit a more casual playstyle, it;s also more forgiving IMO as if you've dumped a few not-so-useful cards into your deck (especially in a drafting type format) then you can always use them as resources anyway.

MTG's resource system allows for more complex play; especially when you consider land cards that manipulate resource count (as I've recognised almost every Hex card as a take on an MTG card, I'll assume we'll be seeing similar mechanics).

I don't think it's a case of better or worse, they both have their place. But I am glad that Hex is using the land system.

Ghost
08-19-2013, 06:17 AM
As others have pointed out using cards from your deck as resources seems to suit a more casual playstyle
I don't think you actually understand the implications of a game like WoW that can use any card as a resource. It usually gives you many more decision points each turn because:

#1 you have to decide what card to resource. Every card in your hand potentially can be a resource. There is no auto "I just lay all my lands as resources, duh". Choosing the right or wrong cards to row can and does have huge impacts on who wins a game. It is another skill to be learned and executed during gameplay.

#2 you never get mana screwed or flooded, so you should always have an opportunity to at least play some cards against your opponent in every game. In fact, because you can just row cards that are going to be too expensive to be played in some particular matchup, you should probably be able to play the majority of the cards that you draw even against rush decks. There is never those games where you didn't draw any islands so half the cards in your hand are unplayable. This means good solid play is rewarded a bit more often. The casual (or less skilled) player actually wins LESS OFTEN when variance is decreased in a game like wowtcg. Play skill and making smart decisions every turn of the game matters even more than in Magic (among similar deck types, of course - control decks in magic have a lot more decisions to make than aggro decks in wow, for sure).

zmrklic
08-19-2013, 06:18 AM
I think they both have their place. As others have pointed out using cards from your deck as resources seems to suit a more casual playstyle, it;s also more forgiving IMO as if you've dumped a few not-so-useful cards into your deck (especially in a drafting type format) then you can always use them as resources anyway.

MTG's resource system allows for more complex play; especially when you consider land cards that manipulate resource count (as I've recognised almost every Hex card as a take on an MTG card, I'll assume we'll be seeing similar mechanics).

I don't think it's a case of better or worse, they both have their place. But I am glad that Hex is using the land system.

This is so wrong - why would you put bad cards in your deck. As i said, row decisions can be very hard and requires skill.

Mathaw
08-19-2013, 06:24 AM
This is so wrong - why would you put bad cards in your deck

Several reasons, not many of them good :) As I say, it's more forgiving. Not everyone wants to spend hours researching the viability of a deck, or more specifically during a draft not everyone has the experience to get it right every time. I'm not saying it's a 'good thing', per se, just pointing out that it's trait of that mechanic - by definition the term 'forgiving' implies that errors are present.

Mathaw
08-19-2013, 06:32 AM
I don't think you actually understand the implications of a game like WoW that can use any card as a resource. It usually gives you many more decision points each turn because:

#1 you have to decide what card to resource. Every card in your hand potentially can be a resource. There is no auto "I just lay all my lands as resources, duh". Choosing the right or wrong cards to row can and does have huge impacts on who wins a game. It is another skill to be learned and executed during gameplay.

#2 you never get mana screwed or flooded, so you should always have an opportunity to at least play some cards against your opponent in every game. In fact, because you can just row cards that are going to be too expensive to be played in some particular matchup, you should probably be able to play the majority of the cards that you draw even against rush decks. There is never those games where you didn't draw any islands so half the cards in your hand are unplayable. This means good solid play is rewarded a bit more often. The casual (or less skilled) player actually wins LESS OFTEN when variance is decreased in a game like wowtcg. Play skill and making smart decisions every turn of the game matters even more than in Magic (among similar deck types, of course - control decks in magic have a lot more decisions to make than aggro decks in wow, for sure).


Nah I get it. I play Shadow Era (not very well, but then I'm no veteran TCG player… :) ) which uses the same resource system.

I see what you're saying though, I guess it depends on perspective. I know that as a new player (which wasn't that long ago) I found Shadow Era/WowTCG to be A LOT more accessible and forgiving than MTG style mechanics. I prefer MTG style gameplay, but I felt that player skill is less of a factor in a game like Shadow Era.

Maybe Shadow Era differs enough from WowTCG to be clouding my judgment on the matter.

But ye, as I say, I'm no veteran. This is just my 2 cents :) I hope to become a lot more experienced with Hex as I was majorly put off MTGO by the budget client and the inflated card costs.

Xenavire
08-19-2013, 06:40 AM
I will just say that I had large amounts of fun playing MTG, even when mana screwed. It didn't happen that often, and when it did I just accepted the loss. Same thing with flooding. I was not the best player at my shop though, and the guys with real skill would generally 2 and 0 every match up until the final rounds, through simple things like constructing a deck with a good curve and having cheap spells to cast, mixed with smart mulligans.

I learned a ton from those guys, and you can mitigate luck with good play habits. There will be the very rare occasions where things go so wrong even a skilled player can't fix it, but those are edge cases.

WoWTCG players can harp on about it all day, but in the end that same screw could technically happen to them. What happens when you only draw high cost cards, and even when you mulligan things are just as bad, with no early turn plays? Or when you only get early turn plays and nothing to curve out? It pretty much has to happen, even to good players but those would be the same kinds of edge cases.

Just stop arguing and accept that luck will always be a factor in a tcg, but skill can mitigate the effects. It doesn't matter what resource system you have, it can, and probably will happen. (Hell, even in tcg's with no resource systems it happens - look at yugioh.)

Barkam
08-19-2013, 09:26 AM
The problem is that people use the term luck when they should be using variability. Luck can happen in chess too. You might get lucky that your opponent didnt see your mistake. But the variability on where that bishop can go is very small. Now in mtg/hex, the next move variability is tremenduous. The larger the variability the larger the chance of luck manifesting itself through mana screw, mana flood, top decking, etc. Depending on the systems in the game will dictate the variability and thus luck. Hearthstone has less variability than mtg is fact.

Mathaw
08-19-2013, 01:41 PM
I just gave SolForge a go, interesting game!

I like that they've gone for something that feels really different. The client feels a bit buggy on the ipad, but it's pretty slick looking. Not sure how the mechanics balance, what the pitfalls are etc. but it's at least novel.

Unhurtable
08-19-2013, 01:49 PM
Of course it never happens.

You also act as if your opponent actually gets an advantage. You both are playing the same game and bad hands do happen. Like I said if a game involves drawing cards then luck is a big factor. That's the nature of this genre.

But saying WoW TCG requires more skill while Hex five resources is purposelessly designed for a stupider audience (because you hide behind the luck it provides....?? that's what the other post said anyway) is just laughable.

Saying it never happens is quite bold as it is certainly possible, and as more games are played the odds of it happening at least once get very close to 100%.

No, I perfectly understand that the "luck" applies to both sides. You on the other hand act as if good players CAN'T get mana flooded or mana screwed, which is logically false, as they are not in control of the first 7 (or 13) cards they are going to draw.

Did I say WoW TCG required more skill while Hex five resources system is designed for a stupider audience?
I don't remember saying that. Would you mind posting where I did this?


All this discussion about luck. Regardless of the chosen design, it is a symetrical game. So everything lucky or unlucky can happen to your opponent too.

Why do people play luck based slotmachines even if they know (or should know) that it is not possible to win.

Even more, why are some slot machines so much more profitable than others.
--> Because it is all in the presentation and how much fun you make losing and winning.

Personaly i think you need winstreaks and losstreaks (due to luck) to feel connected to something.
Ask a poker-player what is his most memorable hand and so on. I bet most of the time it are these extremes that stay in mind.

I think there is nothing more boring than knowing in advance which deck will win 100%.

It is possible to win on a luck based slotmachine. In the long run your odds of going positive is low, but you can still go positive in the short run.


The problem is that people use the term luck when they should be using variability. Luck can happen in chess too. You might get lucky that your opponent didnt see your mistake. But the variability on where that bishop can go is very small. Now in mtg/hex, the next move variability is tremenduous. The larger the variability the larger the chance of luck manifesting itself through mana screw, mana flood, top decking, etc. Depending on the systems in the game will dictate the variability and thus luck. Hearthstone has less variability than mtg is fact.

Luck can't happen in chess. If your opponent doesn't notice your mistake, then he is arguably not better than you. Luck is a perfectly valid term as it points towards something being decided that is seemingly outside of both players control. This fits Hex especially since its the server that does the shuffling and not the players.

Mathaw
08-19-2013, 02:33 PM
Saying it never happens is quite bold as it is certainly possible, and as more games are played the odds of it happening at least once get very close to 100%.

Slightly pedantic but technically that's not true. The odds remain the same as each draw is a unique event. You could flip a coin and get heads 99 times in a row, but the chance of getting tails on the next flip is still 50/50.

Aradon
08-19-2013, 02:56 PM
Slightly pedantic but technically that's not true. The odds remain the same as each draw is a unique event. You could flip a coin and get heads 99 times in a row, but the chance of getting tails on the next flip is still 50/50.

He pretty clearly stated that the odds were referring to the whole chain of repetitions. Your counter-argument opposes the statement "If your last 1000 games haven't given you any 7-land hands, then the odds of your next game giving you a 7-land hand approach 100%." Which was never stated. Unhurtable stated a true statistic that the odds of an event occurring at least once in a series of repetitions approaches 100% as your sample size increases.