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dogmod
08-22-2013, 01:47 PM
Permanence

The basic concept of this dungeon is simple: You cards carry their permanent changes with them throughout the dungeon. It extends the concept of permanence that Hex has brought even further across multiple battles. How much fun would it be to take that Mushwocky that you buffed up to 89/89 to your next battle?

All effects are permanent and the cards are reshuffled into your deck as you progress. You would start off each battle with your 60 card deck and would have the chance of drawing the cards that you had effected in the last match. This would be my choice and I think would be the most fun in the long run. The one issue would be balancing the dungeon around escalation cards. You could either make their changes not permanent, make their changes permanent but make the dungeon have some lore reason why they only escalate themselves and not the other cards in the deck, or you could make it so there is some risk/cost associated with playing them: such as many of the opponents in the dungeon having spells/effects that allow them to "reflect" spells. Not much fun getting your 64 damage ragefire blasted back in the face.

Now as to the lore of the dungeon. Perhaps it is set as an extended rearguard battle as you are retreating out of some terrible situation. Or perhaps you are locked within a time capsule created by the dwarves gone wrong. The void society was able to shift you into the capsule to stop it from destabilizing and destroying the realm as it did so. Just some spit ball ideas.

Achievements:

- Beat the dungeon without any permanent changes on your troops
- Beat the dungeon with an escalation card above 100
- Beat the dungeon with a creature with >50 attack
- Hungriest Mushwocky ever: Beat the dungeon with a Mushwocky > 200 ATK/DEF


Thoughts? Ideas?

If you like this one it is posted on my Hex Ideas shared document:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G_ekhon1GYf3OgtXlFAuFonHkbDCxMiI_HTaryRgXhc/edit?usp=sharing

MoikPEI
08-22-2013, 01:52 PM
I think this may be the way it's planned out already.
Like, I remember seeing something official-ish in a clarification about Spectral Lotus that you would not have the opportunity to empty Black Tigers and refill Spectral Lotuses between battles while in-dungeon. If the deck state is immutable between fights... maybe the card state will be too?

That would be insanely awesome. But balance concern; gain The Transcended early, and he stays that way all the way to the final boss? Feels a bit OP. There's a few other Transform cards like that which are way too stronk if you get them right off in their final state.

dogmod
08-22-2013, 01:55 PM
I think this may be the way it's planned out already.
Like, I remember seeing something official-ish in a clarification about Spectral Lotus that you would not have the opportunity to empty Black Tigers and refill Spectral Lotuses between battles while in-dungeon. If the deck state is immutable between fights... maybe the card state will be too?

That would be insanely awesome. But balance concern; gain The Transcended early, and he stays that way all the way to the final boss? Feels a bit OP. There's a few other Transform cards like that which are way too stronk if you get them right off in their final state.

That would be pretty interesting to me if it was planned this way already and how they were going to balance it. The spectral lotus seems to be a separate issue to me as the lotus is changed permanently outside of the dungeon and thus effects your deck across the dungeon. That would seem to me to be a different issue but perhaps not.

keldrin
08-22-2013, 02:21 PM
Well, it could be like that. Since the fights get hard as you move forward.
But while I like the idea of a permanence for a single dungeon, since it grants a unique feel. I'm not jumping up and down about the idea of it being on all dungeons.
It would effect deck construction to much. Your emphasis would always have to be on cards that permanently buff, so they would get more powerful.
That would limit deck concepts to much in my opinion. The unlimited deck build options to attempt on the dungeons, is a nice part of the appeal.

dogmod
08-22-2013, 02:29 PM
Well, it could be like that. Since the fights get hard as you move forward.
But while I like the idea of a permanence for a single dungeon, since it grants a unique feel. I'm not jumping up and down about the idea of it being on all dungeons.
It would effect deck construction to much. Your emphasis would always have to be on cards that permanently buff, so they would get more powerful.
That would limit deck concepts to much in my opinion. The unlimited deck build options to attempt on the dungeons, is a nice part of the appeal.

I hadn't thought of that but I would agree. I like it as a one off dungeon that places a strong focus on a particular aspect of the game but if it was like this in every dungeon it would take over deck building too much.

I still like it as a one off though ;)

Facilier
08-22-2013, 07:12 PM
I don't like this idea as anything other than a very niche one-off.

This will very specifically mandate deck construction towards enhancements of various sorts, push people into artificially stretching out games to buff as much of their deck as possible before delivering the killing blow, create bizarre unintuitive interactions (such as what happens to constructs built off an Inspiration Engine? Does The Ancestor's Chosen become unplayable in this scenario, as it will potentially flood your deck with so many ghosts that Bill Murray himself could not find mana in there? etc), be even more impossible to balance than normal PvE content where challenges for pre-inspired troops fighting side-by-side with a 0-Cost Argus would be impossible for reasonable decks, or if balanced towards the latter be trivial for decks created specifically for this content, and that's just the drawbacks I see off the top of my head.

Seems to me this is something that is much better as a concept than an experience.

Malicus
08-22-2013, 07:27 PM
Conceptually I like it and while there are many flaws they can be worked around. As a niche experience the dungeon for want of a better term expects such actions so revert effects will be prevalent in the PVE decks as well as debuffs being more powerful for the AI decks, countermagics could become quite crippling :P. There is some concern around card generation and mana dilution so perhaps allow for % based mana distribution in this environment to offset it.

dogmod
08-23-2013, 01:51 AM
I don't like this idea as anything other than a very niche one-off.

This will very specifically mandate deck construction towards enhancements of various sorts, push people into artificially stretching out games to buff as much of their deck as possible before delivering the killing blow, create bizarre unintuitive interactions (such as what happens to constructs built off an Inspiration Engine? Does The Ancestor's Chosen become unplayable in this scenario, as it will potentially flood your deck with so many ghosts that Bill Murray himself could not find mana in there? etc), be even more impossible to balance than normal PvE content where challenges for pre-inspired troops fighting side-by-side with a 0-Cost Argus would be impossible for reasonable decks, or if balanced towards the latter be trivial for decks created specifically for this content, and that's just the drawbacks I see off the top of my head.

Seems to me this is something that is much better as a concept than an experience.

I wouldn't necessarily make the deck list changes permanent but rather just the cards in the deck being able to carry permanent changes. Definitely a roadblock to think about. I definitely think the dungeon would require you to focus on the specific challenge it presents when building your deck to face it. Not a dungeon you could just bring your usual deck to and expect to win.

Facilier
08-23-2013, 05:27 AM
And once a dungeon is created to specifically celebrate buffing decks, will there be one that mandates you bring a rush deck? A life gain one? A milling deck? Not really seeing the benefit in having this wonderfully multi-faceted game, where people have huge scope for exercising their creative side, and then introducing artificial restrictions on what decks are valid in a given setting.

Vibraxus
08-23-2013, 08:43 AM
It sounds cool, but since having your effects carry over, it would seem "fair" creatures that have died should stay dead. Just my .02

dogmod
08-23-2013, 10:51 AM
And once a dungeon is created to specifically celebrate buffing decks, will there be one that mandates you bring a rush deck? A life gain one? A milling deck? Not really seeing the benefit in having this wonderfully multi-faceted game, where people have huge scope for exercising their creative side, and then introducing artificial restrictions on what decks are valid in a given setting.

Well for me the issue is that if you never create dungeons where one type of deck will generally perform better you are never giving the player the incentive to create new decks. It would not be that rewarding to me if I could create all these wonderfully creative decks but it wouldn't really matter because I could pretty much bring whatever.

If you have a dungeon like this, then in my opinion the creative people are going to have that much more incentive to bring decks that DON'T use permanent changes and still try to beat it. What better way to express their skill and creatitivity then to design decks around beating dungeons outside of the beaten path. Hence the achievements for doing so without permanent changes.

I actually think that Cryptozoic is likely already doing things like this for those specific reasons. If you look at any game, as you progress in the game roadblocks are intermittently placed in your way which cause you to reevaluate or change your playstyle. An RPG where you get a sweet Fire Sword and then all of the sudden you get to a boss that is immune to fire. Is the RPG stifling creativity by doing that or encouraging you to branch out. And again how much more challenged and creative would you be if you somehow beat the immune fire boss with fire?

Sorry for the long diatribe, your opinion is totally valid I just wanted to express mine more fully. I hope, personally, that their is a mix of dungeons with some having challenges that have more specific optimal solutions and others that are generally challenging and allow people to bring any deck so long as it is strong and well constructed.

Aldazar
08-26-2013, 03:40 AM
I agree that you might not necessarily want to force people to build decks like this (revolving around enhancements/permanent buffs), but I do think it would be an interesting "option", so for example, you could be given the option to toggle the mode and if you succeed, you get an achievement/special drop? Different dungeons could have different "special modes", so there could indeed be ones that have a special mode to encourage/require a rush deck, a life gain deck, a milling deck, etc.

In my proposal, the basic dungeons would have relatively few restrictions - ie you can optimize your deck to beat it more easily or quickly, but nothing extreme, and each dungeon would have one (or more) "special" or "hard" modes (completely optional so no one whines that they are being forced to play the same dungeon twice or build decks they don't want to, etc.) that have additional restrictions and/or special conditions to force you to scratch your head a bit more and construct a deck you otherwise wouldn't because it's very unbalanced in one way or another, but still interesting to construct and play...

This would theoretically dramatically increase the number of cards in your collection (unless you sell them after each run?), and the number of different playstyles you are exposed to over the course of the campaign.

You could argue that each dungeon will be varied enough in its own right to achieve this, but I would argue that while there should be, for example, a requirement of, say 5-50% variance from your "normal" style of play for standard dungeons, these "special" modes would require close to a 100% change in way of thinking/deck construction to beat, and would thus truly force you completely out of the box. This would be uncomfortable and undesirable for the less hardcore among us, which is why I advocate it as a separate, and optional mode. The above percentages were arbitrarily made up by me for the sake of the example and are not based on any facts or information released by CZE, so please don't hold me to them...=P

Lockon
08-26-2013, 06:49 AM
Weird, I consider myself massively casual, and I'd have no problem with this. Besides, if in over 40 dungeons, not ONE has made me rebuild my entire deck, they're not doing their jobs right. Yes, force people out of their "comfort" zone, or, as I like to call it, their lazy zone, and make them rethink everything. It's good for that to happen every now and again.

Mindless
08-26-2013, 09:16 AM
It sounds cool, but since having your effects carry over, it would seem "fair" creatures that have died should stay dead. Just my .02

Yep This seems to be one of the many "fixes" if this would work. This also promotes an ability to gain cars in between battles and rather grow a deck than just having 60 in the first battle. Also each battle would need a turn limit as otherwise the games will only be stretched as much as possible as mention by Facilier. Probably have more fixes if it would be viable but the idea in it self is good.

Lockon
08-26-2013, 01:37 PM
How about having your HP tick away during the match, fluffed as whatever is letting you keep your upgrades between matches is also slowly kill you.

noragar
08-27-2013, 10:02 AM
And once a dungeon is created to specifically celebrate buffing decks, will there be one that mandates you bring a rush deck? A life gain one? A milling deck? Not really seeing the benefit in having this wonderfully multi-faceted game, where people have huge scope for exercising their creative side, and then introducing artificial restrictions on what decks are valid in a given setting.

Artificial restrictions like these would be the incentive to actually use the creativity that the game allows. It's not very creative to make one deck, and then use it for 20 dungeons in a row. At least not as creative as constantly using different deck concepts to utilize a strategy that's more efficient for each particular dungeon.