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Falcongold
08-22-2013, 05:05 PM
I have read a bit on the forums on the topic of timers, but I have not read anything that says exactly how they may function in HEX, if there is a page that exists detailing this I apologize, please post the link.

Now, having played a lot of software CTG's (DotP, magic, etc.) I have a great distaste for the (sadly) required-for-jerks timers. as much as I want them to go away everywhere I know that without their watchful eye, many competitive games would degenerate into "oh yay, I was about to win, but now I need to quit because my opponent isn't progressing the turn". I wish online gamers followed a better code of honor, but you know, this is why we can't have nice things.

All of that being said, I think there is a nicer middle ground that can exist, than what is out there in the digital CTG space now. What if timers started off disabled (or were an option for certain match types), and at *any* time any player can toggle on the timers, no questions asked. so all games can start off friendly, cordial, But as soon as someone starts to get their "I'm-gunna-be-a-jerk"-on, the helpful 'timer fairy' can be summoned out of the ether to keep things moving forward (it's 'timer-time'). Layer on top of that, that at any time, the person (or persons) that brought in the timer, can un-toggle it, and go back to timerless (as long as all users "timer toggle" was disabled)

This probably won't solve all of the world's problems, but it would certainly solve most of my issues with timers (mostly that they wreck 'friendly-only', being really strategic in coop, making it harder to mentor people in tough games, and rushing really interesting games to panicked conclusions), while still preserving the balanced ref that prevents griefing.

I know this wouldn't work everywhere, and I know there may be another solution in the works\in place, but as long as I don't have to rush through a game with 'only friends' where we all know up front that we are not going to ruin the game for each other, I'm happy. If we can extend that to every game even with strangers, then fantastic. I think just the looming specter of the timer will be enough to keep people honest. :)

Vengus
08-22-2013, 05:16 PM
If players themselves could toggle a timer everyone would be using it during their opponent's turn to force him/her into making a move. I like the way the timer currently works, maybe CRZ could add a system to report those kind of AFKers if they haven't already but that's the only thing I would add.

heavyhitter86
08-22-2013, 05:57 PM
If your issue (mainly) is not being able to take your time to explain to a friend, guild member or new player the nuances or finer points of the game maybe there can be an option to Turn off timers if both players agree to it. That way both players have a say in the timer issue and you can still achieve your goal of a friendly more casual-type game.

Barkam
08-22-2013, 06:19 PM
I also like it that there is a limited time for players to play in tournaments.

With that said, I hope there are custom games which the timer can be turned off.

hexnaes
08-22-2013, 07:28 PM
I would rather see an "extend timer" that you could give the other player time. Every click is a minute added to the original.. say 20 minute time limit.

By default games are always timed, but you could make them casual. Making games friendly by default is harder to adjust... (You might be near the end of the game, and that's when the other player starts acting like a jerk because he's about to lose). If you start the timer near the end of the match, then does that add the default full game length to the match that's about to end? That doesn't really solve your problem. And coming up with elaborate rules to adjust the time appropriately would be confusing (Every card drawn is a minute, or something obscure like that).

edit:
Also, on this (kind of) same topic. I hope they implement a MTG: DOTP2014 style time management system. You have to act within so many seconds when you have an option. It *might* be better than a pass priority system. The pass priority system is something I've always disliked about MTGO.

Malicus
08-22-2013, 08:31 PM
I would rather see an "extend timer" that you could give the other player time. Every click is a minute added to the original.. say 20 minute time limit.

By default games are always timed, but you could make them casual. Making games friendly by default is harder to adjust... (You might be near the end of the game, and that's when the other player starts acting like a jerk because he's about to lose). If you start the timer near the end of the match, then does that add the default full game length to the match that's about to end? That doesn't really solve your problem. And coming up with elaborate rules to adjust the time appropriately would be confusing (Every card drawn is a minute, or something obscure like that).

edit:
Also, on this (kind of) same topic. I hope they implement a MTG: DOTP2014 style time management system. You have to act within so many seconds when you have an option. It *might* be better than a pass priority system. The pass priority system is something I've always disliked about MTGO.

I prefer the pass priority system, you have a clock and should be able to use it as you like - missing a timer because you took a drink or something would suck a lot and just make the experience unpleasant.

Miwa
08-22-2013, 09:05 PM
I've posted the purple link on this the last time this came up...

Custom games can set the timer length, including no timer. I'm also happy with the style of timer now, you're given time to use as you see fit. Very useful if you have real life things to occasionally deal with, because not everyone can sit uninterrupted in a 2hr block of time...

I hate the DoTP system, drives me nuts, because if you look away for a second, you miss stuff. I wish so much that it had a setting to pause between phases.

Shadowelf
08-22-2013, 09:54 PM
I've posted the purple link on this the last time this came up...

Custom games can set the timer length, including no timer. I'm also happy with the style of timer now, you're given time to use as you see fit. Very useful if you have real life things to occasionally deal with, because not everyone can sit uninterrupted in a 2hr block of time...

I hate the DoTP system, drives me nuts, because if you look away for a second, you miss stuff. I wish so much that it had a setting to pause between phases.

Casual games not custom games will be able to set timer lenght or disable it;


You'll be able to set timer length (or not have one) in casual 1v1 games. Additionally, most dungeons won't have timers (who cares if you make the AI wait). However, some dungeons will have a timer as part of the dungeon mechanic. But that is the exception.

keldrin
08-22-2013, 10:49 PM
Casual games not custom games will be able to set timer lenght or disable it;

Well, if you're teaching/coaching someone. It should be casual play. Not during a tournament.

Xenavire
08-23-2013, 06:24 AM
I would rather see an "extend timer" that you could give the other player time. Every click is a minute added to the original.. say 20 minute time limit.

By default games are always timed, but you could make them casual. Making games friendly by default is harder to adjust... (You might be near the end of the game, and that's when the other player starts acting like a jerk because he's about to lose). If you start the timer near the end of the match, then does that add the default full game length to the match that's about to end? That doesn't really solve your problem. And coming up with elaborate rules to adjust the time appropriately would be confusing (Every card drawn is a minute, or something obscure like that).

edit:
Also, on this (kind of) same topic. I hope they implement a MTG: DOTP2014 style time management system. You have to act within so many seconds when you have an option. It *might* be better than a pass priority system. The pass priority system is something I've always disliked about MTGO.

DotP has the worst of all the timer issues I have EVER met. I would rather Yugioh DS (the world championship 20XX series) style chaining options, where you hold a button down when you want to respond (and the game stops at the first possible response point, whether you have a play or not) or hold a button to auto-skip every response opportunity (and it skips everything unless you are forced to respond.) Then have the same timer as now.
Much better solution than DotP, and they have the next best thing (choosing phases you wish to pass priority automatically until.)

So please, never DotP's terrible system.

hexnaes
08-23-2013, 05:43 PM
DotP has the worst of all the timer issues I have EVER met. I would rather Yugioh DS (the world championship 20XX series) style chaining options, where you hold a button down when you want to respond (and the game stops at the first possible response point, whether you have a play or not) or hold a button to auto-skip every response opportunity (and it skips everything unless you are forced to respond.) Then have the same timer as now.
Much better solution than DotP, and they have the next best thing (choosing phases you wish to pass priority automatically until.)

So please, never DotP's terrible system.

I'm not familiar with that system. What happens when another player plays a card, and you don't have the button held down? Does it not let you respond to the play? Or is there a timer that goes off after every action the other player makes, that allows for you to react to something?

It seems strange to have to hold down a button, when you think your opponent might cast something, so you can maybe react to it... Am I missing something?

I'm not completely for DOTP style, but something different from pass priority would be nice. I just really hate the timer eating up my time in MTGO when I don't click pass right away. And juggling the pass options is a pain. If I know I need to/can respond soon, I'll be attentive anyway.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-23-2013, 05:50 PM
They'll likely run similar shortcuts for passing priority as MTGO does. They use 3 function keys (haven't played MTGO in years so I can't remember which), but along the lines of:

Fx - pass current priority
Fy - pass priority until the next time my opponent does something
Fz - pass priority until the next turn

You also set which phases you actually want to stop at (and get priority in the first place), and they've already shown they have that part of the system in Hex.

Essentially, if they do that, no issues with priority passing. It's very simple to use.

As for timers? In PvP, they give both players a clock (30 mins for a match), and you can take all the time you want on your turns, but if your time runs out, you lose the entire match, so it's in your interest not to waste time. As for the pass-automatically-if-a-player-doesn't-take-action-quickly-enough-thing (like with DotP) - while a player going AFK during a PvP match would be annoying, they do still have that 30 minute timer, so I don't think it's necessary. Just listen to some music or something and keep an eye on the game so they don't sneakily come back and try to get you to lose on timer while you're afk (or get a second monitor and watch a show on that).

Kroan
08-24-2013, 10:56 AM
The timers are not only for "keeping out afk'ers" but also for letting tournaments run in certain amount of time. If you have a tournament with 140 people signed up it would be extremly annoying to let 138 players wait for two other people to finish.

I'm actually pretty happy with the MTGO-way of timers. They actually never ran out unless I had to run upstairs because my (almost) one year old woke up and had to go afk. And even then I didn't feel bad for losing because of my timer. :)

Mathaw
08-24-2013, 01:30 PM
SolForge offers both timed and untimed matches. One hidden benefit of this is that you can have several untimed matches on the go at once.

Admittedly this works well as the format is quite casual. I'm not sure that multiple Hex games simultaneously would be easy to follow.

Either way if there's a demand no harm in offering both options. But an untimed match would need some kind of condition if only a singe slot is available, else you'd you might get lumbered with someone that wants to play a game over several days :)

Even the ShadowEra method of having a minute per hand, rather than a game timer works well. Means that newer players dont get beaten by the clock.

If only one option is available though I'd still want the 25/30 min clock.

Kroan
08-24-2013, 01:37 PM
SolForge offers this as there is no interaction on the opponent's turn. It's basically closer to a solitaire game than to Magic or Hex. :)

Lunarath
08-24-2013, 02:31 PM
Personally i'd like a chess timer system. You both have say 10minutes of total time. The timer will count during your turn only. That way you can structure your own time however you want.

Xenavire
08-24-2013, 02:50 PM
I'm not familiar with that system. What happens when another player plays a card, and you don't have the button held down? Does it not let you respond to the play? Or is there a timer that goes off after every action the other player makes, that allows for you to react to something?

It seems strange to have to hold down a button, when you think your opponent might cast something, so you can maybe react to it... Am I missing something?

I'm not completely for DOTP style, but something different from pass priority would be nice. I just really hate the timer eating up my time in MTGO when I don't click pass right away. And juggling the pass options is a pain. If I know I need to/can respond soon, I'll be attentive anyway.

It's fairly good, if you have a possible play it queries you automatically (on every eligible play though, so sometimes it is required to make use of the autopass feature.) The force stop option allows you to assure yourself a chain, or react to your own cards. It also lets you bluff, or just stop a combo to inspect a certain effect.

Like I said, far better than DotP, it gives freedom without restricting you. It had it's flaws, which Hex could fix. And I think they might have already.

Miwa
08-24-2013, 05:55 PM
I'm not familiar with that system. What happens when another player plays a card, and you don't have the button held down? Does it not let you respond to the play? Or is there a timer that goes off after every action the other player makes, that allows for you to react to something?
Timers go off at every place there's a spot to do something, and there's no way to speed it up or automatically pause. So you have to sit and wait for the timer to run out every time the opponent does something, with the downside that you have to actively pause if you want to do something. It's like the worst of both worlds.


Personally i'd like a chess timer system. You both have say 10minutes of total time. The timer will count during your turn only. That way you can structure your own time however you want.
That's how it works in Hex, with the default time being something like 30 minutes per match (which is probably a BO3)