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rajaat9
08-24-2013, 10:26 PM
So I have been looking at the Hex forums for a while now. There are usually 20+ people browsing Hex general at any given time, compared to 0-2 for the other forums. There is information being posted to "fan site news" that 90% of Hex forum goers are not going to see, or at least not see in a timely fashion. The forums are basically dead. Given that, I request that some of the forums become re-merged, so that rather than splintering the community or forcing them to tediously check 5 different sub-forums, they can come to one place and discuss whatever they see that interests them. In particular the fan site news and general discussion. If there was ever anything that should be discussed in general, it would be an interesting article written on a fan site. People want to read/watch/listen to content and talk about it. You should let them! Forum communities have network externalities, the more people in one place, the better that place is. Make General the one-stop shop for Hex news and discussion.

Does anyone else agree with me here?

Leingod
08-24-2013, 10:50 PM
Honestly I think it will help to be seperate once beat starts and more information gets out there. Right now I could definitely see merging fansite announcements and general, but it really should be on the viewer when there's only like 2-3 other relevant forums.

I feel like maybe a sticky in general with links to various fansites in the OP and then people from sites can just post updates in that thread might be the best way to do it. It might end up moving really fast but if the forums have a 'go to last read post' button (do they?) then it shouldn't matter much. That would reduce an entire sub-forum of clutter and likely be just as good while also putting the information in a more relevant place. Course, with a forum update on the way it's hard to say until we see how it's gonna be afterwards. Shouldn't be enough updates really to require much more than a single thread. Just keep discussion of updates either on the site that made it or make a post in the relevant forum here to discuss it. That would really be my only worry with that system is where discussion on fansite updates would go.

Badger
08-24-2013, 11:18 PM
The forums aree slow because there is no game. Wait 'til it comes out and it will pick up again.

funktion
08-24-2013, 11:18 PM
Sure, it does suck that viewership has gone WAY WAY down since the forum split. It makes it hard for fansites and fan-content producers to keep putting stuff out. I think my viewership was somewhere between 800-1000% better when the forums were merged (this is a pretty realistic number too, no joke).

With that said, I think it's fine the way it is now, but there are better ways for the crypto team to implement it / funnel things. Talked to a few of the guys about this at the dinner last week, which reminds me, I need to send them a follow up email. Hopefully I'll have time to do so tomorrow.

hex_colin
08-24-2013, 11:49 PM
So I have been looking at the Hex forums for a while now. There are usually 20+ people browsing Hex general at any given time, compared to 0-2 for the other forums. There is information being posted to "fan site news" that 90% of Hex forum goers are not going to see, or at least not see in a timely fashion. The forums are basically dead. Given that, I request that some of the forums become re-merged, so that rather than splintering the community or forcing them to tediously check 5 different sub-forums, they can come to one place and discuss whatever they see that interests them. In particular the fan site news and general discussion. If there was ever anything that should be discussed in general, it would be an interesting article written on a fan site. People want to read/watch/listen to content and talk about it. You should let them! Forum communities have network externalities, the more people in one place, the better that place is. Make General the one-stop shop for Hex news and discussion.

Does anyone else agree with me here?

I agree. The views Hex Vault got from the GenCon thread in General (thanks, Stok3d) were INSANE (thousands of views) compared to anything I have to post (per the rules) in the Fansites forum (tens of views). I'm planning to stay the course until we're well into Beta, but if the traffic from the Fansites forum doesn't improve significantly it's probably not worth creating the content.

I'm also a proponent of moving the "List of Fansites" sticky back to General - it's useless in the fansite forum. Also, it's needs to be updated pretty badly too.

rajaat9
08-24-2013, 11:54 PM
you can look at the number of responses to posts and see the difference in forums. You're lucky to get a response to the best post in the world in fan site news, but in general I have 3 responses to a post ABOUT THE FORUMS THEMSELVES. If that doesn't tell crypto something, nothing will.

Malicus
08-25-2013, 12:01 AM
I am conflicted on this - while yes putting them in general would increase the casual reader numbers the topics are already available to those who want them. What I definitely don't want is the front page of general to be one post from each fansite promoting their next thing or everyones cool new deck idea since while I do like the fansites and cool decks that is not generally what I want to read in general.

rajaat9
08-25-2013, 12:41 AM
I can see the strategy forums being separate, but it's pretty easy to just scroll past the threads you don't like. And since there is very, very little information on the game as yet, it would be better to let those trying to actually generate buzz and content put their stuff where it can actually be seen, by people who seem to want to see it and don't want to look for it elsewhere.

dogmod
08-25-2013, 01:07 AM
I personally never go to fansite forum but whenever I see anything in these forums regarding content I check it out. I don't imagine I am the only one. It sounds like their numbers support that.

Kroan
08-25-2013, 01:14 AM
I would be ok with moving them back to general discussion if people wouldn't spam multiple topics for the same site in a short amount of time. For example in the Fan Forums are now three topics about basically the same topic on the same site. That's ridiculous and very annoying as well.

Chiany
08-25-2013, 01:23 AM
For example in the Fan Forums are now three topics about basically the same topic on the same site. That's ridiculous and very annoying as well.

Indeed, not to mention the title of the first one is a bit misleading. It has new info, but hardly important.

Shadowelf
08-25-2013, 02:31 AM
I am conflicted on this - while yes putting them in general would increase the casual reader numbers the topics are already available to those who want them. What I definitely don't want is the front page of general to be one post from each fansite promoting their next thing or everyones cool new deck idea since while I do like the fansites and cool decks that is not generally what I want to read in general.

I agree.....



I'm also a proponent of moving the "List of Fansites" sticky back to General - it's useless in the fansite forum. Also, it's needs to be updated pretty badly too.

...and this would have been my solution for starters. Easier to implement than merging and we can see how it goes from there

ossuary
08-25-2013, 04:52 AM
Yeah, I get the conflict. While it sucks to have the traffic go way down, it also sucks to have the whole main page clogged with sites clamoring for attention.

Obviously there was interest before, because the fan sites WERE getting the traffic... but it very much seems to be an "out of site, out of mind" kind of situation. Most people just go straight to GenDis and never look anywhere else. If I'm being honest, I do the same thing... in fact, my shortcut to this site doesn't even go to the forum list, it goes straight to GenDis.

Putting the one stickied thread with fan site lists back into the GenDis forum seems like a good solution. Whenever you have a new article of note, you can post in that one thread, and people will see it in GenDis, without clogging the forum up (so those who are interested, can easily go from that thread to your site). I'm betting that would increase the visibility and hence traffic, but wouldn't annoy everyone with clutter.

Can a mod look at this for us please?

Stok3d
08-25-2013, 05:56 AM
Yeah, I get the conflict. While it sucks to have the traffic go way down, it also sucks to have the whole main page clogged with sites clamoring for attention.

Obviously there was interest before, because the fan sites WERE getting the traffic... but it very much seems to be an "out of site, out of mind" kind of situation. Most people just go straight to GenDis and never look anywhere else. If I'm being honest, I do the same thing... in fact, my shortcut to this site doesn't even go to the forum list, it goes straight to GenDis.

Putting the one stickied thread with fan site lists back into the GenDis forum seems like a good solution. Whenever you have a new article of note, you can post in that one thread, and people will see it in GenDis, without clogging the forum up (so those who are interested, can easily go from that thread to your site). I'm betting that would increase the visibility and hence traffic, but wouldn't annoy everyone with clutter.

Can a mod look at this for us please?

This is beyond simply Mod. However, a proposal has been in place with benefits and drawbacks. There has been some very good points to keep it status quo--so that may be the direction to go. I don't know.

Mods + CZE Employees, please check out This Thread (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13). (We're using an obscure place so it hasn't really been seen by many so I'm linking it here for visibility. Yes it's a mod section so unless you're mod or employee you can't see it).

Malicus
08-25-2013, 06:17 AM
I would almost suggest not stickying it. I know it seems like a great thing for a thread to get stickied but if the discussion would keep it around the front page anyway you probably get less readers, I know I am probably not alone in basically skipping over stickied threads except when I start reading a forum or when it comes to my attention for another reason since they are most commonly housekeeping issues or topics I have already discussed.

Niedar
08-25-2013, 06:38 AM
I don't want a bunch of people spamming their new youtube video or article in here sorry. I don't really mind hey I have this new fansite maybe you want to check it out. The problem is making a thread for every article or video that is made which seems to be an almost daily affair.

freudinio
08-25-2013, 07:33 AM
Yeah, I get the conflict. While it sucks to have the traffic go way down, it also sucks to have the whole main page clogged with sites clamoring for attention.

Obviously there was interest before, because the fan sites WERE getting the traffic... but it very much seems to be an "out of site, out of mind" kind of situation. Most people just go straight to GenDis and never look anywhere else. If I'm being honest, I do the same thing... in fact, my shortcut to this site doesn't even go to the forum list, it goes straight to GenDis.

Putting the one stickied thread with fan site lists back into the GenDis forum seems like a good solution. Whenever you have a new article of note, you can post in that one thread, and people will see it in GenDis, without clogging the forum up (so those who are interested, can easily go from that thread to your site). I'm betting that would increase the visibility and hence traffic, but wouldn't annoy everyone with clutter.

Can a mod look at this for us please?

Could a mod please keep this open? Thanks.

ossuary
08-25-2013, 08:48 AM
I don't want a bunch of people spamming their new youtube video or article in here sorry. I don't really mind hey I have this new fansite maybe you want to check it out. The problem is making a thread for every article or video that is made which seems to be an almost daily affair.

Hence my suggestion to make it a single, stickied thread that you can feel free to ignore if you don't care. Anyone who posts a "hey I just made an article" or "hey check out my site" thread would have that moved to the fan site section by the mods in the usual fashion.

MoikPEI
08-25-2013, 09:36 AM
in fact, my shortcut to this site doesn't even go to the forum list, it goes straight to GenDis.

Same.

While there are some fansites I feel are "worthy" of being promoted on GenDis, there are others I don't. But I'm not comfortable with the idea of having a rule with exceptions. It'd be un-necessarily confusing and frustrating to smaller fansites.

Posts that are simply "come read my article/watch my video" take some discussion away, and push other discussions down. They're detrimental to GenDis/people new to the community trying to get engaged. I feel it may be best if the article was posted here, and the poster's sig had an upsell link for "Like this post? Come see more at Websiteplace!"

Nicalapegus
08-25-2013, 09:43 AM
Forums have historically only been used by 1-5% of the player population. Given that this game isn't even in Alpha yet, I find it hardly surprising that the forums are "dead" (but they really aren't because you and I are here having a conversation).

Taking action to "save" the forum of a game not even close to being released is... silly. Just saying.

Alzorath
08-25-2013, 10:21 AM
... I'll reiterate a point I made elsewhere: Main sites feed fansites, Fansites keep fans engaged and playing the game.

I'm a relatively small channel, and you'd be surprised how many times people stumble on my content, and get back into a given game. As the channels/websites grow, this effect amplifies.

The shift of the forums splitting, has been noticeable on my channel - though nowhere to the extent it has been for less established channels (I may only have a few hundred viewers, but I know many of them are interested in Hex, and therefore will give me views). The split of GD/Fansites - has cut my views on Hex videos in half. (300+ down to 100-150 now). Basically shifting them from a solid performer on my near-600 sub channel, to a 'casual content performer' on my channel.

I will continue producing hex content regardless... it's just disheartening to see that much of an impact (50% loss basically), because of a forum segregation when it's unnecessary. (you could just limit people to one thread about their given site outside of major promotions - it's fairly common sense in the realm of "don't spam".)

Icepick
08-25-2013, 11:52 AM
I agree. The views Hex Vault got from the GenCon thread in General (thanks, Stok3d) were INSANE (thousands of views) compared to anything I have to post (per the rules) in the Fansites forum (tens of views). I'm planning to stay the course until we're well into Beta, but if the traffic from the Fansites forum doesn't improve significantly it's probably not worth creating the content.

I'm also a proponent of moving the "List of Fansites" sticky back to General - it's useless in the fansite forum. Also, it's needs to be updated pretty badly too.

This is pretty consistent with my experience. It's tough to say exactly since I haven't had a link in General since the split to make the same comparisons, but even on days when I post new articles, the amount of traffic I get from the forums now is almost non-existent. It's possible that this is because everyone hates my site, but I like to think I write some pretty good content!

I don't really have a good solution - I don't think merging the two forums back together is the best idea as I think people's concerns about Gen being flooded with "new article" posts is a valid one at this point, but it's a little disheartening not having visitors when you work so hard on something.

MercuryMonkey
08-25-2013, 12:16 PM
I prefer fan site posts being in the fan site forum. I would support fan site/channel posts in the general forum if it was 1 announce thread allowed per site/channel and it was only posted to or bumped when new content was posted to that site/channel by the people that run that site/channel. All actual discussion of that site and content should be within the fan site forum.

I don't think people should worry too much about visitor/subscriber growth until there is community growth due to there being an actual game to play.

hex_colin
08-25-2013, 12:28 PM
I prefer fan site posts being in the fan site forum. I would support fan site/channel posts in the general forum if it was 1 announce thread allowed per site/channel and it was only posted to or bumped when new content was posted to that site/channel by the people that run that site/channel. All actual discussion of that site and content should be within the fan site forum.

I don't think people should worry too much about visitor/subscriber growth until there is community growth due to there being an actual game to play.

I like this idea - I think it would help a great deal! Also, if they were moderated properly, there shouldn't be too big an issue of them "drowning" out other posts. On the flip side, for the sites that did provide new content every day, they'd almost always be near the top of General - a reasonable payoff for their contributions to the community.

I also agree with your thoughts on visitor/subscriber growth - that's why it's not worth making any rash judgements (either by content creators giving up on a site or CZE making more structural changes to the forums).

blakegrandon
08-25-2013, 12:41 PM
I like this idea - I think it would help a great deal! Also, if they were moderated properly, there shouldn't be too big an issue of them "drowning" out other posts. On the flip side, for the sites that did provide new content every day, they'd almost always be near the top of General - a reasonable payoff for their contributions to the community.



I have to disagree...

Even only having one thread per fan site would result in the first few pages of General discussion being populated by fan sites, and while I'm sure some would only "update" occasionally, it quickly becomes a race to the bottom as the fan sites that update more will get more "exposure".

Personally I feel a stickied thread is the best solution so that people that WANT to see fan site "updates" can choose to engage the fan sites.

I just hope they moderate in game chat, nothing annoys me more than guild spam and gold spam. I'd love to be able to make new friends rather than fill up my ignore list with people that spam the same thing over and over.

I don't mean any offense to any fan sites, but if we make an "exception" for one of you then we need to make an "exception" for everyone, which would lead to a lot of spam on this site by "fan sites", and then it just goes downhill from there.

It's not that I am antisocial, but fansites when the game launches seem counterproductive to me, because I would rather be playing the game... :-p

MercuryMonkey
08-25-2013, 12:49 PM
I don't mean any offense to any fan sites, but if we make an "exception" for one of you then we need to make an "exception" for everyone, which would lead to a lot of spam on this site by "fan sites", and then it just goes downhill from there.

It's not that I am antisocial, but fansites when the game launches seem counterproductive to me, because I would rather be playing the game... :-p


I definitely have this concern too. 1 thread per site still is a mess if you let every blog that writes anything do it. If you moderate it and only allow approved sites to do this it creates a problem with people crying about "fairness". It's good that people want to contribute and all but sometimes people just are not good enough at things to waste other peoples time looking at it.

HyenaNipples
08-25-2013, 01:43 PM
I also think fansite stuff should stay off General. General forums are for fans to talk to each other, not a farm from which websites harvest pageviews. A single sticky advertisement for the Fansite News Forum itself is about as much as should be done, if that.

Thread Title: Looking for articles and videos about Hex TCG? Click here to go to the Fansite Forums!

Unobtrusive without being obscure.

Though it sounds like new forums are coming along with the new website, so this entire discussion is rather ill-timed- not to mention a re-hash of an exhausted topic.

Unhurtable
08-25-2013, 02:19 PM
What they should do is just a "new posts" section that contains only new posts from all forums (or rather, threads with new posts).

Shadowelf
08-25-2013, 02:41 PM
What they should do is just a "new posts" section that contains only new posts from all forums (or rather, threads with new posts).

This already exists in an extent; click Forums on top and scroll down. There are 2 tables on the right side of screen with 'new forum posts' and 'new forum threads'

calisk
08-25-2013, 08:47 PM
I want to contribute and I check the forums regularly but their isn't much to say, at best everything pre-alpha that needs to be said has been said, I'm just waiting for an alpha to hit so I can actually contribute with some testing.

honestly I check back every few days hoping to hear some enws about when the alpha will start.

HyenaNipples
08-25-2013, 10:51 PM
Don't we all.

Unhurtable
08-26-2013, 01:14 AM
This already exists in an extent; click Forums on top and scroll down. There are 2 tables on the right side of screen with 'new forum posts' and 'new forum threads'

Oh....

Well thats good :D

Alzorath
08-26-2013, 06:14 AM
I find it slightly comical that people think fansites are 'farming views' or that fansite updates would flood the general discussion section... You realize that a post takes at least 4 days to cycle off the front page of the fansite forums. Not exactly 'flooding'.

Fansites will generally create content regardless of views, though even the most ardent creator and fan will get disheartened if they can't get the attention of an audience for their creation. I find it a bit sick that a number of individuals seem to demonize content creators - is it wrong to want to share a passion with others? seriously?

I'm a youtuber, because I enjoy it.
I follow hex, because I see promise in it.
I draw, write, sing, etc. because I get joy from it.

I do these things with or without an audience, I have for the vast majority of my life, and will continue to do so. The reason I fight for it, is that an audience for these things can amplify the quality and enjoyment 10-fold - viewers spark discussions, questions, ideas, energy. The creator is just the seed, the audience and environment is what makes the ideas blossom (that is, and always will be, my approach to creation). The idea of the 'lone creator' is a falsehood, we create from mixing and morphing our experiences into something 'new'.

Kami
08-26-2013, 07:12 AM
The official stance is this:


We are in the process of updating forum guidelines and prepping moderators to enforce them. This isn't an instant process, but I can assure you that actively cross-posting to increase page views will be dealt with. Repeated abuse will be met with a vacation from the forums.


We have our own plans for what we want to do for fan sites, but I'd love to hear what the fan site community has to say on the subject. Anyone interested in sparking this conversation should start a new thread on the subject.


...I think we can do a much better job implementing it. We have several community programs in the works for once we transition into Alpha and beyond, including plans for supporting our awesome fansites.

I have my own thoughts on the matter but I'll abstain publicly.

blakegrandon
08-26-2013, 07:40 AM
I find it slightly comical that people think fansites are 'farming views' or that fansite updates would flood the general discussion section... You realize that a post takes at least 4 days to cycle off the front page of the fansite forums. Not exactly 'flooding'.

Fansites will generally create content regardless of views, though even the most ardent creator and fan will get disheartened if they can't get the attention of an audience for their creation. I find it a bit sick that a number of individuals seem to demonize content creators - is it wrong to want to share a passion with others? seriously?



You're contradicting yourself.

Creating content and not "flooding" the forums with it would be admirable, but then you admit that without the audience it would be disheartening. Most fan sites eventually will flood the forums if allowed because they all will think they "deserve" as many eyeballs as possible. It's not necessarily sinister as much as it is how humans act and how we ALL crave attention.

No one is demonizing "content creators" in general, we're demonizing the content creators that will create a new thread for every article that gets posted by "them" or aggregated by "them", and the ones that will constantly bump their individual thread.

If your product can't stand on it's own in a thread with other fan sites or in a forum with other fan sites it doesn't deserve to be thrown in our faces so that we HAVE to look at it.

I think you're getting pretty defensive based on your fan site experience, from a consumer point of view fan site promoters are no different from guild spammers.

If fan sites produce great content then people that want to see the content will go to the fan site section of the forums, just like people that want to find a guild will go to the guild section of the forums. If your site isn't drawing enough content then blaming the placement of the posts isn't the problem...



I do these things with or without an audience

Good for you, and if you build an audience good for you. To say that EVERY "Fan" Site is about creating content for the sake of creating content is like saying all guild spammers just want to promote their guild. Sometimes it goes from being civil to quickly being spam based as fan sites and guilds vie for attention and numbers.


You may not be THAT "fan site" that constantly posts new articles and peddles it as community building, that doesn't mean they don't exist and that doesn't mean those of us that want to discuss things other than fan sites should be forced to wade through tons of threads in General Discussion.

Other forum sections are less popular because they're less popular, saying we should take less popular "subjects" and mesh them into other sections very quickly becomes an issue of what goes where.

Why should the fan sites be in general discussion? What about guild recruiting? What about technical discussion?

HyenaNipples
08-26-2013, 08:18 AM
I find it incredibly comical that people can say fansites WOULDN'T flood General Discussion to farm views.

It's like no one has a memory that goes back more than a month. Before the Fansite News Forum, fansite news DID flood General Discussion to farm views. I was there, I saw it, and I even participated in it.

ossuary
08-26-2013, 08:44 AM
I remember one day in particular, a full 16 of the 20 non-sticky thread topics on the main page were fansite update posts. And at that time, we still had the sticky for fan sites in the main forum as well. :p

rajaat9
08-26-2013, 09:51 AM
I remember one day in particular, a full 16 of the 20 non-sticky thread topics on the main page were fansite update posts. And at that time, we still had the sticky for fan sites in the main forum as well. :p

This problem can be solved with good forum moderation, sounds like. Anyone spamming their site can be temp-banned. But given the amount of posts on Fansite news, that doesn't seem to be a problem. The forum gets only a couple of new posts a day (that could be of course because the average Hex forum reader does not actually go there, so there's no point in posting an update.)

Some content creators are not doing it for the love of creating content: no one writes articles on how to draft, how to build a deck with a working resource curve, etc. for the love of it. They know this stuff already! They want the community to SEE these articles. If they are not getting enough views, they will stop creating, and then there is just less content out there. The game isn't mature enough to spawn a self perpetuating website ala Starcitygames or ChannelFireball (sites which are also stores and have physical presence) or even a BrainBurst or The Dojo (for those who played Magic way back then.) Hex people only really congregate here, and if we want content to prosper, some concessions might want to be made for them, at least at this point in the game's life.

HyenaNipples
08-26-2013, 10:31 AM
Generally, the goal is to make things self-sustaining. Any addition that creates the need for more human management is a step in the wrong direction. The rare exception being something that adds a huge positive benefit for everyone involved, which removing the Fansite forum would not do.

Shrennan
08-26-2013, 06:17 PM
I think it's best to not have sub-forums and to have one large forum, honestly. One of the most successful forums I know has two forums in practice - gaming and off topic. There are two more sub-forums but they are generally not used and it's usually where official topics end up going once they have run their course.

Anyway, in my opinion, a lot of sub-forums do end up splintering the community and as I've seen with that forum that I referred to, the two sub-forums are just enough to bring in a community (and honestly even the gaming community and the off topic community are pretty much separate in culture).

Also, It might just be me, but I find the black background hard on my eyes. I much prefer a white background with a black text.

ossuary
08-26-2013, 07:26 PM
FYI, you can change the layout of the interface in a few key ways in your profile settings. I don't like the Hex theme layout, for the same reason you've identified. I use the overall WoWTCG layout, it's white background with black text. Much easier on the eyes.

Shrennan
08-26-2013, 07:51 PM
FYI, you can change the layout of the interface in a few key ways in your profile settings. I don't like the Hex theme layout, for the same reason you've identified. I use the overall WoWTCG layout, it's white background with black text. Much easier on the eyes.

You've just made my day. Thank you kind sir! =P

blakegrandon
08-27-2013, 05:54 AM
Some content creators are not doing it for the love of creating content: no one writes articles on how to draft, how to build a deck with a working resource curve, etc. for the love of it. They know this stuff already! They want the community to SEE these articles. If they are not getting enough views, they will stop creating, and then there is just less content out there.

I went over it earlier in the thread, but pandering to what THE fan sites want as opposed to what the community wants is the wrong approach to take for a lot of reasons.

Just because a "fan site" wants you to watch or read their content doesn't mean the community WANTS to watch or read their content.

Having a separate forum where people can go if they WANT to see the content is the best method because it keeps general discussion for discussing the game and not promoting everyone's work.

By all means, throw your fan site, blog, twitter, or youtube link in your signature; but don't automatically expect that people want to see your content.

Fan sites are NOT entitled to viewership, they can earn their cred like any other business, player, content producer, or artist.


Hex people only really congregate here, and if we want content to prosper, some concessions might want to be made for them, at least at this point in the game's life.

If they can't "prosper" on their own in an entire forum section devoted to them, then it's not an issue of the population being "mature" enough. There are plenty of fan sites generating viewership, just like there are plenty of guilds achieving large numbers of players and applicants.

What's next, a guild asking to be able to spam general discussion because his guild isn't generating enough interest on the guild recruitment section of the forums?

There is a time and place for everything, the place for fan sites is on a section of the forums dedicated to fan sites and if "your" fan site generates users great, if not maybe we're just not that into "you". (I use the term you loosely for anyone generating content)

Alzorath
08-27-2013, 06:30 AM
A few things blakegrandon:

1. My statements were not a contradiction. "farming views" vs "establishing viewership" are very different things. You could be the next DaVinci or Hemmingway, but if your work is shoved into the back of a closet and put out of sight and out of mind, no one's ever going to know you exist.

2. Ironically, you're saying I'm being defensive, when in reality - I have an established viewer-base, so I was impacted the LEAST of any of the fan content creators - my goal in this thread isn't for me, it is instead to help develop a strong foundation for fan communities both new and old. And if you're wondering in my personal 'loss' from the forum switch? I had a 50% loss of viewership on hex videos, overall, my hex videos account for maybe 7-10% of my weekly views, meaning I lost less than 5% of my total views, which with my current growth curve, will be recovered shortly - where as other content creators focused solely on hex are suffering 50-75% losses to their views.

3. Threads will tend to sink, eventually, even if being bumped every day, mainly because threads like that, usually don't net a ton of views per effort.

---------

I'm very open about my purposes for doing things - it's part of how I do things, and it's why most my subscribers know I won't try to manipulate them or mislead them. They also know that, despite it being done as a personal passion, I treat my channel like a business in pretty much every non-monetary sense - it is my responsibility to create quality content and deliver it to them in exchange for their time watching my videos. Most fan sites, probably all, for hex, currently operate on an operational-loss model - people shelling out money to maintain a site - some eventually want to break even, some just want the community, some just want to create (as an aside: some people do write articles about drafting and such 'for fun'... I've written detailed design documents for fun, and they're much more dry and un-entertaining)

Marketing content, legitimately or illegitimately, requires the ability to reach the audience - if that ability is stifled or destroyed - then content will not be marketed, and eventually content will die regardless of quality.

Hatts
08-27-2013, 07:29 AM
Can we wait a few months before running around in panic screaming the pageviews are falling? Forum activity is probably at the lowest point it will ever be. The copious amounts of content the fan sites are producing are just hot air at this point, theory crafting on half a set. I'm not visting pages / watching video's* because there is nothing new to say right now, I am sure others are in the same boat. If your current viewership numbers are causing you angst maybe put down the web cam and mic and take a break until alpha.

The fact that we needed to segregate the fan site posts already is a testament to the passion of the creators of the content. Imagine what it will be like in 6 months when there is 10x the amount of sites and 100x the amount of people in the community. If fan sites are still having troubles attracting viewership then let's revisit.

* Gencon content not withstanding, I've read / listened to most if not all content coming out of gencon.

blakegrandon
08-27-2013, 07:42 AM
A few things blakegrandon:
1. My statements were not a contradiction. "farming views" vs "establishing viewership" are very different things. You could be the next DaVinci or Hemmingway, but if your work is shoved into the back of a closet and put out of sight and out of mind, no one's ever going to know you exist.

Sure, but you could also be the next writer of mediocre stuff that no one wants to reads.



2. Ironically, you're saying I'm being defensive, when in reality - I have an established viewer-base, so I was impacted the LEAST of any of the fan content creators - my goal in this thread isn't for me, it is instead to help develop a strong foundation for fan communities both new and old. And if you're wondering in my personal 'loss' from the forum switch? I had a 50% loss of viewership on hex videos, overall, my hex videos account for maybe 7-10% of my weekly views, meaning I lost less than 5% of my total views, which with my current growth curve, will be recovered shortly - where as other content creators focused solely on hex are suffering 50-75% losses to their views.
When did I state YOU were being defensive?

The thing about "views" is that how much of that is organic versus marketed? People posting tons and tons of article will generate traffic, especially if people think they're clicking on bonafide articles and instead get the peddler's fan site.

Artificially inflating the viewership number will of course result in a plummet of traffic when you're no longer allowed to spam the forums.

Congrats on having an established foundation, that said like I said earlier, if people want to view your content they will go to the fan site section. General discussion is NOT designed to promote other businesses.



3. Threads will tend to sink, eventually, even if being bumped every day, mainly because threads like that, usually don't net a ton of views per effort.


Which is why fan sites have their own section. If they "sink" quickly on general discussion then fan sites will feel the pressure to post or bump more and more, which results in "low view" spam, regardless of the quality of the content it does become spam at some point.



I'm very open about my purposes for doing things - it's part of how I do things, and it's why most my subscribers know I won't try to manipulate them or mislead them. They also know that, despite it being done as a personal passion, I treat my channel like a business in pretty much every non-monetary sense - it is my responsibility to create quality content and deliver it to them in exchange for their time watching my videos. Most fan sites, probably all, for hex, currently operate on an operational-loss model - people shelling out money to maintain a site - some eventually want to break even, some just want the community, some just want to create (as an aside: some people do write articles about drafting and such 'for fun'... I've written detailed design documents for fun, and they're much more dry and un-entertaining)


I run 4 businesses in real life, so I can respect losing money in the short term to hopefully make it back in the future. That said I would NEVER feel that I'm entitled to customers, I earn my customers and earn their loyalty, and at the end of the day I do pretty well all things considered. I don't believe in the idea that the ends justify the means and I dislike doing "whatever it takes" to get viewership or customers.



Marketing content, legitimately or illegitimately, requires the ability to reach the audience - if that ability is stifled or destroyed - then content will not be marketed, and eventually content will die regardless of quality.

You have an ENTIRE section devoted to fan sites here, it's hardly being stifled or destroyed. If people are not getting viewers maybe it's not the way the forums are set up but more because people are just NOT interested in viewing said content?

You can't force yourself on to the community, no means no.

ossuary
08-27-2013, 08:08 AM
You can't force yourself on to the community, no means no.

Ah, that's nice. Equate asking for changes on a forum to rape. Nice analogy. That's not an exaggeration or anything. :p

blakegrandon
08-27-2013, 08:12 AM
Ah, that's nice. Equate asking for changes on a forum to rape. Nice analogy. That's not an exaggeration or anything. :p

Some people have a difficult time taking no as an answer...

Frankly fan sites should be happy that they have an entire subsection of the forum to peddle their "products".

I still haven't heard any compelling arguments as to why fan sites should be in general discussion but guild recruitment should be in a sub-forum. Why have sub-forums at that point? Why keep things organized instead of forcing people to wade through stuff that may or may not interest them?

Gorgol
08-27-2013, 08:13 AM
The copious amounts of content the fan sites are producing are just hot air at this point, theory crafting on half a set. I'm not visting pages / watching video's* because there is nothing new to say right now, I am sure others are in the same boat. If your current viewership numbers are causing you angst maybe put down the web cam and mic and take a break until alpha.

The fact that we needed to segregate the fan site posts already is a testament to the passion of the creators of the content. Imagine what it will be like in 6 months when there is 10x the amount of sites and 100x the amount of people in the community. If fan sites are still having troubles attracting viewership then let's revisit.

* Gencon content not withstanding, I've read / listened to most if not all content coming out of gencon.
Pretty much this. I've got most if not all the fansites and youtubes etc all bookmarked and ready to go for when actual new information comes out. I too watched everyone's Gencon stuff because it was new and concrete. Maybe I'm not "part of the community" for fansites because I don't comment on all the things, but I do watch and read and will continue to do so in the future as alpha, beta, and eventually release comes.

Alzorath
08-28-2013, 10:23 AM
When did I state YOU were being defensive?



I think you're getting pretty defensive based on your fan site experience, from a consumer point of view fan site promoters are no different from guild spammers.



I run 4 businesses in real life, so I can respect losing money in the short term to hopefully make it back in the future. That said I would NEVER feel that I'm entitled to customers, I earn my customers and earn their loyalty, and at the end of the day I do pretty well all things considered. I don't believe in the idea that the ends justify the means and I dislike doing "whatever it takes" to get viewership or customers.

You have an ENTIRE section devoted to fan sites here, it's hardly being stifled or destroyed. If people are not getting viewers maybe it's not the way the forums are set up but more because people are just NOT interested in viewing said content?

Curious about what businesses you run - and how you would feel about your advertising venues telling you can only market via an "out of sight, out of mind" services? Or heck, if it's a brick & mortar establishment - being told the only 'signage' you can have for your business is text on your window, most people couldn't read from the nearby street?


Some people have a difficult time taking no as an answer...

Frankly fan sites should be happy that they have an entire subsection of the forum to peddle their "products".

I still haven't heard any compelling arguments as to why fan sites should be in general discussion but guild recruitment should be in a sub-forum. Why have sub-forums at that point? Why keep things organized instead of forcing people to wade through stuff that may or may not interest them?

Sometimes "no" is the wrong answer for the health of a community and a game.

Want a business reason for this? - Let's look at how google handles youtube analytics for 'recommended videos' and 'recommended channels' - they look at similar tags among your viewing history, and compare it to videos based on a few factors: views, view retention, likes/dislikes/comments (general term: audience engagement), channel retention (click through to other videos by same creator), and several other factors. Similar functions are in place in all google 'social' products where they can track the information. By starving the budding channels of the game, many of which share tags with other TCG content on youtube (if the creator is smart about it) - it lowers the probability of the content creators, and in turn, the game, from spreading as far outside of its current "fan bubble". The difference between 300-500 "quality views" and 1000 "quality views" is major in this. Hex is still very much in the "fan bubble" state, lots of avid fans, slowly trickling out - a mention by a big name (total biscuit) did give a boost at breaking the fan bubble, but it was a side comment... should he cover it, he can push it semi-viral - which may or may not burst this bubble. This push to semi-viral is a 50/50 shot at bursting the bubble, but suppose it doesn't, it will give a short term boost which lacks long-term impact as quickly the view rate will return to its lower levels because it is not cross-pollinating to other TCG content successfully (there's a reason I mention SolForge in my review of Forgotten Myths for example - it nets them more views and more attention for the game), same reason I mention MtG a lot in my Hex content - it cross pollinates.

The search engine functions slightly differently, though again it's based on click throughs, search patterns, etc. (this is less impacted by this).

- As far as being happy about being given a section, it's a mixed bag really - as an educated content creator who knows a fair bit about marketing, it is the equivalent of being dusted under the rug. This is true of ANY forum with a fan section - it becomes a circle jerk of content creators, not a section where people look for new content. (creators become the audience of each other). Yes it gives a place where people -can- look, but it's not a place people -do- look unless prodded. If you can point me to a game that shows evidence to the contrary, I would gladly accept it - but to date, not a SINGLE game I've played or followed the forums of has proven contrary to this circle jerk situation.

As far as the lack of compelling arguments for you to change your mind, it is actually a case of something very common online: deaf ears to contradictory points. We all suffer from it to an extent, regardless of who we are, though some suffer from it far more than others.

Though as far as why fan sites belong in general discussion, and guild sites don't : Fan content adds to the general discussion of the whole community, Guilds generally are geared towards facilitating content for the individuals "within", not the community as a whole.

ossuary
08-28-2013, 11:49 AM
Don't even bother trying to talk to him, Alzorath. Anyone who would use a rape analogy to try to make a point about a simple forum request loses all right to rational discord. And membership in society, as far as I'm concerned. :p

arastor
08-29-2013, 07:19 AM
Don't even bother trying to talk to him, Alzorath. Anyone who would use a rape analogy to try to make a point about a simple forum request loses all right to rational discord. And membership in society, as far as I'm concerned. :p

I think you're being more than a little unfair there. He did not make a rape analogy. He used a phrase that is often used with regards to rape, but at no point did he say that spamming general discussion is anywhere near as bad as rape.

ossuary
08-29-2013, 07:32 AM
I'm not being unfair at all. He said "no means no." Then, when I called him on it, he tried to defend himself by saying "some people just can't take no for an answer." It was unquestionably his intention to IMPLY a correlation, even if he did not use the word directly. And I'm sorry, but that's just not cool. Period.