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Xerma1
08-26-2013, 04:42 AM
EDIT 1: Added version 1.1 based off suggestions.
EDIT 2: Added version 1.11 after further consideration of the cantrip. Also fixed a typo.
EDIT 3: Added version 1.20 to reflect the changes to definition. Removed previous versions
for clean up. Changed definition of Conflagration Stone.

Introduction

Hi

Many of us, coming from MtG backgrounds, see a lot of promise in this game and what it could be. With the experience we have, we know that we're going to want to see many routes to success while playing this game. Like other successful games, you've got your rule set but it relies on a wellspring of innovative ideas and executable forms.

Threshold is a great idea for helping multiple-resource oriented decks, but with the evolution of the game, we may see other concepts take advantage of manipulating thresholds, such as filtering libraries for more resources based on threshold type - think Farseek.

Before I proceed further, we don't know what changes will be made during alpha or beta and it is very much possible any concept I propose may be nullified by something that I'm either not immediately aware of, or by something which will be changed in the future.

I'd like to begin then by introducing a new mechanic and card type: A vanilla drawback mechanic I'll call 'Revelation' and a non-basic resource - a 'Conflagration Stone'.


Revelation

With any system where you seek an advantage, there is always something unexpected, often times a cost. When designing advantageous opportunities from a plural mechanism or system, balance should take a toll. What that toll is depends on the advantage needed. With dual lands and shocks in MtG, we're given a choice: Take two damage and use the land for either of two colors, or let it slide in to be unusable for a turn. Of course, there are ways around that problem, but require other cards.

Revelation X: Until the beginning of the Xth turn this has been on the field, this card is ignored. On the Xth turn, this [card] becomes activated and can be used and passives distributed appropriately. Remove X Charge from your champion.

So from a flavor standpoint, imagine a hardened rock or slick gem, dulled and lifeless on the field, or maybe a robot that's been made inactive for a time due to hostile magics. All of the sudden...BOOM!!! The gems are filled with magic, or the robot has let loose a electromagnetic pulse across the battlefield, but may cause a few small wounds to those nearby.

Conflagration Stone: A non-basic resource which can only be played once a turn as you would normally play a resource shard.

Knowing what these are, I present...

================================================== =====================


~~Spiritstone of the Clawing Wind (v.1.11)~~

CONFLAGRATION STONE

Revelation 1

Spiritstone of the Clawing Wind adds one to each of your Sapphire and Diamond Thresholds.

TAP: Add 1 Diamond or 1 Sapphire resource point. If the color is the same as your champion's color, add one to their charge pool. If this ability has been used twice, sacrifice Spiritstone of the Clawing Wind and draw a card.

================================================== =========================

~~Spiritstone of the Clawing Wind (v.1.20)~~

CONFLAGRATION STONE

Revelation 1

At the beginning of your turn, add either one Sapphire or one Diamond Threshold.

TAP: Add one temporary resource point. If the color/shard threshold you added this turn is the same as your champion's color, add one to their charge pool. If this ability has been used twice, sacrifice Spiritstone of the Clawing Wind and draw a card.

================================================== =======================

Well, that's all I can reveal for the time being. I plan to come back and regularly update this based on feedback. I'm sure the abilities would need some twinking, but you have the jest of the idea. I encourage anyone to create their own or suggest changes to mine.

Thanks for reading!

Xenavire
08-26-2013, 05:11 AM
They already confirmed there will be dual or multi-threshold cards in the future, and they already have some colour fixing cards spoiled.

I like the enthusiasm, but if you are worried about it, I would relax. They only thing I would be concerned about would be the prices and the drawbacks.

I am not sure I understand the mechanic you have suggested though - it seems like a tap/exhaust effect that adds threshold permanently... And a potential charge? Very powerful. If it was tap and sacrifice, no issues there.

YourOpponent
08-26-2013, 06:31 AM
There was already a diamond/sapphire non basic resource leaked...I'm too lazy to go look in the forums though.

Shadowelf
08-26-2013, 08:01 AM
What we got so far is ascendant brilliance (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game?ref=live...scroll down at AH pick ) and the 'shards of fate' (http://hexmusings.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/designer-interview/)

Xerma1
08-26-2013, 05:33 PM
They already confirmed there will be dual or multi-threshold cards in the future, and they already have some colour fixing cards spoiled.

I like the enthusiasm, but if you are worried about it, I would relax. They only thing I would be concerned about would be the prices and the drawbacks.

I am not sure I understand the mechanic you have suggested though - it seems like a tap/exhaust effect that adds threshold permanently... And a potential charge? Very powerful. If it was tap and sacrifice, no issues there.

Thanks for the response!

I'm honestly not very concerned. I believe what I've seen so far is a very finely tuned game and I'm excited to have the opportunity to try it during Alpha in a few weeks!

I had no idea they released any information regarding a multiple-threshold card. I'm anxious to read more about it!

As to your query, what I wanted the card to be was something MtG players might recognize as a mix of guild gates, shocks and signets. Because Revelation makes cards 'invisible' (think suspend) to the rest of the field for X-1 turns, you're not getting a benefit out of it. It's completely comatose.

Additionally your champion gets hit for X charge/damage when it becomes revealed, so there's a lot of consequences related to when to play it and how many to use in your deck.

The conflagration stones I've introduced aren't going to be automatic playsets for most decks. You're not going to want to draw a hand with 3 conflagration stones and no other resources - in *many* circumstances; although, there may be some decks where that would be acceptable.

So, just for clarification, once the stone is revealed, your champion immediately takes two charge damage and you'll have added 1 threshold of two different resources. At the same time this happens, an ability goes onto the action stack - here, you can give a creature flight until end of turn.

Furthermore, you'll be able to use it to add a combination of those resources to your resource pool *AND* if you add two of the same gem-color, you'll get one charge point added to your champion.

Anyhow that's all for version 1.0 of the conflagration stone. I'll add another version later today.

Thanks for reading ^^

Xerma1
08-26-2013, 05:47 PM
What we got so far is ascendant brilliance (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game?ref=live...scroll down at AH pick ) and the 'shards of fate' (http://hexmusings.wordpress.com/2013/08/21/designer-interview/)

Thank you for your response and the link.


Question: I have noticed that though many cards have been spoiled, only five resources have been spoiled so far, the basics. Some form of non-basic resource has been seen on a stream, but no one was able to tell exactly what it does. Can you reveal that?

Answer: The non-basic resources in the set are known as “Shards of Fate”. One such shard has the following ability: When you play it, you can create a resource of any type that you already have in your deck (basically, in a Ruby/Wild/Diamond deck, as long as you have Ruby/Wild/Diamond Sources in your deck the Shard of Fate can create a Ruby, Wild, or Diamond threshold.) This source is 0/1, it does give you a permanent resource but does not add to your pool this turn.

If I'm understanding the shard, it gives you a threshold in a color of your choice, limited by resource choices in your deck. But can't be used on that turn. This reminds me of the Alara block tap lands (if I'm understanding it). I think that's fine for a basic set, but what about non-core/non-basic sets?

Have CZE* said anything regarding 'expert'/'advanced' sets?

Shadowelf
08-26-2013, 06:08 PM
If I'm understanding the shard, it gives you a threshold in a color of your choice, limited by resource choices in your deck. But can't be used on that turn. This reminds me of the Alara block tap lands (if I'm understanding it). I think that's fine for a basic set, but what about non-core/non-basic sets?

Have the said anything regarding 'expert'/'advanced' sets?

The way i understand it is that will work exactly like those lands, only that you are making the choice for the color once and that choice will be final; you won't have access to the other 2 like the mtg lands do

As for multicolor cards/lands this is the only info i could dig http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360 check 0:34:10

Xerma1
08-26-2013, 06:21 PM
The way i understand it is that will work exactly like those lands, only that you are making the choice for the color once and that choice will be final; you won't have access to the other 2 like the mtg lands do

As for multicolor cards/lands this is the only info i could dig http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360 check 0:34:10

Wow! Thanks again for your help!

I actually really like the shards. You don't get to keep all three (in the example, Ruby/Wild/Diamond) but you get to keep a 'threshold' of one in addition to the resource extraction from the card (I'm assuming at this point).

This team definitely knows what they want out of this game and they're very articulate about it too!

Anyhow, I've got a few more ideas I'll be throwing out in the next few weeks just to have something to talk about.

Cheers~

The_Wine_Gnat
08-26-2013, 08:02 PM
Shard of Fate is pretty cool. Thanks for the links.

FeelNFine
08-26-2013, 11:42 PM
The rarity hasn't been revealed yet though, has it? I'm really hoping it's not rare. The thing I dislike most about MTG's competitive scene is rare lands. When you have a 300$ deck and over 200$ is in your land pool, it diminishes the epicness of your other cards IMO, and makes it much harder for other players to get into the game. Also they never carried the weight or flavor of sets the way other cards do. Sure there have been memorable rare lands in MTG, but the color fixing ones? Name one of the shocklands without looking.

Xerma1
08-27-2013, 02:31 AM
The rarity hasn't been revealed yet though, has it? I'm really hoping it's not rare. The thing I dislike most about MTG's competitive scene is rare lands. When you have a 300$ deck and over 200$ is in your land pool, it diminishes the epicness of your other cards IMO, and makes it much harder for other players to get into the game. Also they never carried the weight or flavor of sets the way other cards do. Sure there have been memorable rare lands in MTG, but the color fixing ones? Name one of the shocklands without looking.

Shocks are great! However, I understand your concern about the financial cost of mana bases.

The game is going to be kept in check for a while, because of the low investment cost of getting into the game. I think I remember reading booster packs will be $2.00 and other Hex product will be significantly cheaper than what we see from MTG products.

Additionally, WotC has modeled a form of market control on their product which leads to significant rarity. Coupled with incredible popularity, means that sometimes supply is short and price high. I actually hope we'll see *some* form of rarity in the game, but nothing asinine like a $100 Tarmogoyf or $80 Alpha lands. Since Hex is self-contained online, there's no reason that CZE couldn't implement a price cap somewhere in the range of $20.00 - $50.00 for their cards on the AH. However, there is an idealistic problem with price caps: if there is a limited supply and the price cap is too low, there'll be incredibly limited opportunities for players to obtain the cards they need.

Once a card sees successful competitive play, the card will be snatched up by everyone fast enough to get on their account and buy it from the AH. Of course, it's also a 'permanent' commodity (being digital), which can be indefinitely traded and sold virtually for as long as Hex exists.

One thing that's helped the price of shocks drop, was a continued production with the RTR block. What used to be $25-$40 dollar lands, fell to $10 and less.

Anyhow, I don't really want to derail my own topic!

What's your opinion on the Shard mechanic or my own idea presented in the OT - Conflagration Stones?

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-27-2013, 02:49 AM
On the subject of Wizards and lands, as much as I hate how expensive they are, I think they've done it right. Rares should, on average, be more powerful than other cards - and given how important lands are and how much of an impact having multi-color untapped lands is, they deserve to be rare. The rarity plus their usefulness (all decks need lands, and the best decks need the best lands, so while a Loxodon Smiter won't go in every GWx deck there's a good chance a Temple Garden will) causes their price. While from the point of view of my own expenditure I'd prefer them to be uncommon, that doesn't really reflect how good, powerful or important they are.

On the topic of the actual idea, it's ok. Revelation could be cool, but honestly, without trying to be negative, it doesn't seem like anything special compared to any other mechanics that have already been done, or could be done in the future, and doesn't take full advantage of the digital space (you could achieve a similar effect in a paper TCG by playing a revelation card face down). Also, you wouldn't add a "sapphire or diamond" resource. You'd add one temporary resource point (ie. +[1/0]). If you wanted it to affect color, you'd have to include something along the lines of "also add one sapphire or diamond threshold; if this threshold is the same as your champion, charge your champion. At the start of your next turn, lose this threshold".

Finally, it does a lot currently - it ramps for 2 turns without requiring any casting cost, it replaces itself almost immediately, and it gives 2 charges to your champion (unless you're really threshold screwed at that point). It's probably on the side of 'too good' atm, and I'd imagine that the majority of competitive decks would run them.

Xerma1
08-27-2013, 03:18 AM
On the subject of Wizards and lands, as much as I hate how expensive they are, I think they've done it right. Rares should, on average, be more powerful than other cards - and given how important lands are and how much of an impact having multi-color untapped lands is, they deserve to be rare. The rarity plus their usefulness (all decks need lands, and the best decks need the best lands, so while a Loxodon Smiter won't go in every GWx deck there's a good chance a Temple Garden will) causes their price. While from the point of view of my own expenditure I'd prefer them to be uncommon, that doesn't really reflect how good, powerful or important they are.

On the topic of the actual idea, it's ok. Revelation could be cool, but honestly, without trying to be negative, it doesn't seem like anything special compared to any other mechanics that have already been done, or could be done in the future, and doesn't take full advantage of the digital space (you could achieve a similar effect in a paper TCG by playing a revelation card face down). Also, you wouldn't add a "sapphire or diamond" resource. You'd add one temporary resource point (ie. +[1/0]). If you wanted it to affect color, you'd have to include something along the lines of "also add one sapphire or diamond threshold; if this threshold is the same as your champion, charge your champion. At the start of your next turn, lose this threshold".

Finally, it does a lot currently - it ramps for 2 turns without requiring any casting cost, it replaces itself almost immediately, and it gives 2 charges to your champion (unless you're really threshold screwed at that point). It's probably on the side of 'too good' atm, and I'd imagine that the majority of competitive decks would run them.

Thanks for your response!

I was just thinking about that. It would give too much tempo early on with the *immediate* cantrip.

Thanks for the clarification, but let me make sure I understand before I proceed and fix my cards. Let me follow with an example. Let's pretend we have a 4/4 'Grizzly Bears' which requires 2 Wild Threshold and has a 4 resource point cost. You can play the card assuming you have 1). 2 wild resources and 2). 4 of any resource point combination available to play it. Am I following correctly?

You're also right about not taking advantage of the digital capacity, but I don't know what dynamics are planned for the Hex AI.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-27-2013, 03:28 AM
Thanks for the clarification, but let me make sure I understand before I proceed and fix my cards. Let me follow with an example. Let's pretend we have a 4/4 'Grizzly Bears' which requires 2 Wild Threshold and has a 4 resource point cost. You can play the card assuming you have 1). 2 wild resources and 2). 4 of any resource point combination available to play it. Am I following correctly?
You can play the card if you have 4 temporary resource points available (at the start of your turn you get 1 temporary resource point for every permanent resource point you have, and other cards can give temporary resource points like Hex Engine, Ritualist of the Spring Litter, Spectral Lotus, Hideous Conversion etc), and two wild threshold. The most common way to get the wild threshold is to play wild shards, but you can also get it via cards like Adaptable Infusion Device.

As an example, to this point I've played 4 Blood Shards, and two Adaptable Infusion Devices that have generated me two Wild threshold. I have four temporary resource points available this turn; I can thus cast the Grizzly Bears.

Also, wild shards/sources don't stay in play - you play the card, you gain the threshold, +[1/1] (one temp and one perm resource point), and the champ charge, then it 'disappears' (pretty sure it doesn't go to the graveyard). At least, that's what it has looked like from all the streams to this point.

Xerma1
08-27-2013, 03:41 AM
You can play the card if you have 4 temporary resource points available (at the start of your turn you get 1 temporary resource point for every permanent resource point you have, and other cards can give temporary resource points like Hex Engine, Ritualist of the Spring Litter, Spectral Lotus, Hideous Conversion etc), and two wild threshold. The most common way to get the wild threshold is to play wild shards, but you can also get it via cards like Adaptable Infusion Device.

As an example, to this point I've played 4 Blood Shards, and two Adaptable Infusion Devices that have generated me two Wild threshold. I have four temporary resource points available this turn; I can thus cast the Grizzly Bears.

Also, wild shards/sources don't stay in play - you play the card, you gain the threshold, +[1/1] (one temp and one perm resource point), and the champ charge, then it 'disappears' (pretty sure it doesn't go to the graveyard). At least, that's what it has looked like from all the streams to this point.

Ahh! I feel embarrassed - I've only just eyeballed it once or twice. I'll have to watch some videos to get the picture. Obviously, being a visual and kinematic oriented learner it'll come much more quickly once I've played the game when it goes Alpha in a few weeks!

Obviously, it's not the definition I had in mind, but it's close to what I was thinking and just as good.

I also need to start thinking 'dynamic, digital TCG'...that was in the back of my head but now, well...I think I have another idea!

Thanks again~

Shadowelf
08-27-2013, 06:17 AM
The rarity hasn't been revealed yet though, has it? I'm really hoping it's not rare. The thing I dislike most about MTG's competitive scene is rare lands. When you have a 300$ deck and over 200$ is in your land pool, it diminishes the epicness of your other cards IMO, and makes it much harder for other players to get into the game. Also they never carried the weight or flavor of sets the way other cards do. Sure there have been memorable rare lands in MTG, but the color fixing ones? Name one of the shocklands without looking.

Sorry to derail your thread more just posting this to alleviate some of people's comcerns ;

Creator Cryptozoic Entertainment on May 13
Martin: I have a piece coming up about the "Pay To Win" idea and why it doesn't apply to HEX, but basically it outlines that HEX is not like the other games you've seen in the digital space. You can trust true, experienced TCG developers to always have a solid base of commons that are tournament staples, budget decks (I believe a $30 deck recently won one of our other tournaments and earned the player thousands of dollars in prizes) that can compete, and the Auction House, trading to both allow players far more ways to build their collection and compete.
(source http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...79694#comments)

So there is a good chance, based on this, that the shards are commons/uncommons.

Xerma1
08-27-2013, 02:59 PM
Sorry to derail your thread more just posting this to alleviate some of people's comcerns ;

Creator Cryptozoic Entertainment on May 13
Martin: I have a piece coming up about the "Pay To Win" idea and why it doesn't apply to HEX, but basically it outlines that HEX is not like the other games you've seen in the digital space. You can trust true, experienced TCG developers to always have a solid base of commons that are tournament staples, budget decks (I believe a $30 deck recently won one of our other tournaments and earned the player thousands of dollars in prizes) that can compete, and the Auction House, trading to both allow players far more ways to build their collection and compete.
(source http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...79694#comments)

So there is a good chance, based on this, that the shards are commons/uncommons.

Thanks again for your help!

It's very comforting to know they want all forms of cards to reach competitive level. Sure, there are some decks in MTG that could probably win an FNM based entirely on commons and uncommons (although that would be rare). However, once a person begins attending major events like a PTQ or Grand Prix Constructed, all low/non rare decks are unheard of.

If I am understanding the Shard of Fate mechanic correctly, I think you may be right - depending on what levels of rarity they have planned. If it's something equivalent to common > uncommon > rare, I totally agree, as it is /similar/ in power level and behavior as the uncommon tap lands from Alara. At this stage of development, having a set of those would be totally fine.

Oh, a question: some of the Gen Con lists used races from different factions. Is this currently a planned possibility for the game's release or is it something they're just testing? (Any idea?)

Once I re-write some of my Conflagration Stone versions to reflect the actual play structure of resource and threshold, they would be rare. Jax's point about thinking more digitally is a good one and I already have an idea - a mechanic - in mind to try on future cards, but I think these stones are already going to be complicated enough. Now I have /another/ idea!

Thanks again~

Shadowelf
08-27-2013, 04:17 PM
Oh, a question: some of the Gen Con lists used races from different factions. Is this currently a planned possibility for the game's release or is it something they're just testing? (Any idea?)


You can mix and match every card in pvp; maybe in the future they create cards that require specific heroes (ardent hero required for example) just like they did with wow tcg, but i doubt this will be the case in set1

Xerma1
08-27-2013, 05:49 PM
You can mix and match every card in pvp; maybe in the future they create cards that require specific heroes (ardent hero required for example) just like they did with wow tcg, but i doubt this will be the case in set1


Good to know. Thank you.

I've also updated Spiritstone of the Clawing Wind to use the 'more correct' definitions of resource/threshold/temporary resource point as I understand right now. I still need to watch the game play videos on youtube and the card may still be worded poorly.

Once I get this downpat, I plan to add more ideas to discuss in the near future. I've two mechanics ideas in the waiting.

Aradon
08-27-2013, 06:53 PM
The rarity hasn't been revealed yet though, has it? I'm really hoping it's not rare. The thing I dislike most about MTG's competitive scene is rare lands. When you have a 300$ deck and over 200$ is in your land pool, it diminishes the epicness of your other cards IMO, and makes it much harder for other players to get into the game. Also they never carried the weight or flavor of sets the way other cards do. Sure there have been memorable rare lands in MTG, but the color fixing ones? Name one of the shocklands without looking.

Hallowed Fountain
Stomping Grounds
Blood Crypt
Sacred Foundry
Steam Vents
Temple Garden
Godless Shrine
Watery Grave
Breeding Pool
Overgrown tomb

A lot of players take them very seriously :)


But I agree, I would love not to have to pay handfuls for utility cards like dual lands.