PDA

View Full Version : Should the cards from Starting Deck be tradable after some time?



Karstaag
08-27-2013, 07:18 AM
This will probably not be written in correct English but I hope you will get the point. And since I did not find topic about this... here we go:

I think that everyone will agree that making cards from Starting Deck not tradable is important to stop mass creating of new accounts. I have no problem with that at all.

But I have to think about future. Imagine that you would start playing with this starting deck and even after you buy some boosters you will still use some cards from it. And with these cards there would be bound memories, progress and achievements. You may win some tournaments with some of them, who knows...
But the fact that they cannot be trade in would make them inferior in my eyes. Which is shame. Since CZE wants to make every single card to be piece of collection, making each card THE card and not just a card with some gaming abilities similar to its kind... It would be against that philosophy if those cards would be permanently not tradable.

So I was thinking... what if cards from Starting Deck would become tradable after some time ( 3 months maybe) and/or only after some matches ( does not matter if pve or pvp ) played with them ( 100? ).

That would prevent mass account creating and at the same time would make those cards not inferior for their owners.


Well that is my point of view. What is your opinion guys?

Kami
08-27-2013, 07:27 AM
No, the FREE starters should never be tradable nor sellable, etc.

It is not only a matter of mass account creation; it is also a matter of having the market flooded with starter cards.

Having arbitrary time-limits or restrictions on when/if the starter cards become 'normal' is irrelevant. It should not happen at all.

Those who purchase a starter deck have paid for the right to use their deck as they wish. That is a big difference.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-27-2013, 07:30 AM
I have to agree that the free starter should not be tradable at all, ever. You are given the free starter for free so that you can play the game for free, if that's what you want to do. It's not so that at some future point you can trade off those cards, even if you've done X amount of things within the game or spent Y amount of money.

HyenaNipples
08-27-2013, 07:31 AM
I dunno, actually.

If you spend the amount of time required to say, fully level up one of the cards you gained in your free starter- it doesn't seem like the investment/reward ratio would be anywhere near profitable enough to be alluring for multi-accounters.

Karstaag
08-27-2013, 07:51 AM
I get your point but the fact is that those cards from starter decks would be pretty much worthless anyway since everybody gets them. So only thing that would give them something special is what did you achieved with them. Market will be flooded anyway with commons from backers rewards but I hope that crafting system will handle it.
And people who buys another starter deck are paying for more cards, not only for that honor to be able to do everything with them. You will get free pve cards anyway for just playing the game and you can trade them. Why punish new players or (in the long run) any players?
You paid for those cards in your time and passion for the game at the point they would become tradable... and as said before they will be pretty much worthless anyway so you could buy those cards very cheaply in game currency. But I am more afraid for those memories you will loose and of that despise people will feel to them...

And what if you could pay the prize of starting deck so those cards would become tradable? That would be fair am I right? I have to say that I would gladly pay so my... Pack Raptor with which I won that really close final would be on the same level as every other card...

blakegrandon
08-27-2013, 07:58 AM
It is not only a matter of mass account creation; it is also a matter of having the market flooded with starter cards.

Uhh... if the cards are free then what does it matter if they're tradable or not? They'll be worth exactly what people pay for it, which is nothing.

The auction house will already be flooded with cards with only the chase rares being worth any amount of real life cash, it will be like any auction house in any game ever, where 99% of the stuff on it quickly becomes almost worthless because of the sheer amount of players thinking they can sell their stuff.

felmare
08-27-2013, 08:00 AM
im going to just make thousands of alt accounts and sell the cards for gold..

Gorgol
08-27-2013, 08:05 AM
i wonder if you can disenchant them or whatever its going to be called to turn them into material to use in the crafting system

blakegrandon
08-27-2013, 08:15 AM
im going to just make thousands of alt accounts and sell the cards for gold..

And you'll get precisely nothing for them because if they're free, people will just create accounts and give themselves the cards.

A get rich quick scheme only works when you're the only person that has access to supply. Unlimited supply=worthless supply.

Which is why I think people are going to be disappointed when their "loot" from dungeons isn't worth as much as they think it will be worth...

Grumph
08-27-2013, 08:17 AM
It wouldn't be a bad idea if the amount of time that you had to play was long enough to deter farming accounts, say maybe after you level a champion to 50 or if they put a quest that has to be completed at the very end of the story(depending on how long the story takes)It would be nice to not be stuck with a bunch of untradeable cards though.

To everyone who are always concerned about free stuff devaluing your cards/collections: If done properly a few free cards here or there will encourage more people to play and therefore increase the amount of people seeking the cards your selling which will increase the value not decrease. If someone has to put in 20 hours or so of game play to make their starter deck tradeable that is hardly going to put a dent in the value of your cards. If someone were to do this full time(40 hours a week) they would only be acquiring what amounts to a $20 dollar value, hardly worth the time and effort to farm account starter decks if you ask me.

Vorpal
08-27-2013, 09:20 AM
If the cards in the starter decks were tradeable, those same cards that you drew from packs would be essentially valueless.

noragar
08-27-2013, 09:35 AM
How about this - make it so that you can swap the "untradeable" flag on your starter deck card with a card of the same name in your collection.

For example, your starter deck contains a Pack Raptor. You level it up to a foil, or win a tournament with it and want to make it tradeable. You obtain another Pack Raptor by opening a booster, on the Auction house, through a trade, or by whatever other means there might be. You then have the option of switching the designation to make your new Pack Raptor untradeable and release the restriction on your foil Pack Raptor.

I don't know how difficult this would be to implement, but it seems like it would satisfy both sides of the argument.

vickrpg
08-27-2013, 09:46 AM
How about just having the option to pay for your free starter deck to unlock it?

Shadowelf
08-27-2013, 09:47 AM
I think that if you spend enough time to foil/EA cards from starters, then those cards should be tradeable; a just reward for your time, effort and dedication.

Kami
08-27-2013, 10:07 AM
How about just having the option to pay for your free starter deck to unlock it?

Yeah, I see this as being the more likely option. I mean, it only costs $10.

MoikPEI
08-27-2013, 10:15 AM
Yeah, I see this as being the more likely option. I mean, it only costs $10.
Seconded.

[Edit: bad math. third'd. Unless that's how seconding works? Proposal, first supporter, second supporter?]

majin
08-27-2013, 10:20 AM
How about just having the option to pay for your free starter deck to unlock it?

i don't agree with this if the cost is $10.

if i am correct, the $10 starter packs have better cards than the free starter. this means that if you want to have your cards tradeable, you will get more value if you buy a new $10 pack

if the cost is around $5 to $7 to make the free starter deck tradeable then it is acceptable for me

vickrpg
08-27-2013, 10:29 AM
I never mentioned a price. =) the option to pay is a good one though.

Unrelated:

A very rich and famous man walks up to a beautiful woman and asks "Would you sleep with me for 10 million dollars?" The woman recognizes the man instantly, and knows that he actually has that much money to spend. She says yes. The man then changes his offer "How about 10 dollars?" The woman, offended replies "Hey, what do you think I am?" to which the man replies "Lady, we've already established what you are, now we're just debating the price."

Zomnivore
08-27-2013, 10:29 AM
i don't agree with this if the cost is $10.

if i am correct, the $10 starter packs have better cards than the free starter. this means that if you want to have your cards tradeable, you will get more value if you buy a new $10 pack

if the cost is around $5 to $7 to make the free starter deck tradeable then it is acceptable for me

I don't understand the desire to trade substandard cards then.

I mean, if you're trading sub standard cards what do you think you're going to get in return?

If you trade one or two 'good' cards out of the premade deck then you basically have an incentive to game value off the free cards, devaluing the rest of the market of 'good' cards.

Also I agree there's probably going to be a pay barrier to trading them. Probably a discount of some sort to get new players started.

noragar
08-27-2013, 10:36 AM
if i am correct, the $10 starter packs have better cards than the free starter. this means that if you want to have your cards tradeable, you will get more value if you buy a new $10 pack


If you were doing it for the value, then you wouldn't be paying $10 (or $5 or $7) to unlock 30 cents worth of cards.

I don't see myself ever having a reason to want to unlock the starter pack cards since the only cards I plan on trading are my 5th+ copies of cards, and if I earn achievements/foils on my cards, I'm going to want to keep them.

However, I don't have any objection to such a system existing, as long as it's not exploitable in even the smallest of ways by farming free accounts.

Karstaag
08-27-2013, 11:07 AM
As long as there is a way to make them tradable, I am okay with it :)
Donīt take me wrong, if I have a card that I won tournaments with or have any other good memory on, I would not trade it. But the fact that it would be untradable would make it inferior in my eyes anyway... Just that little imperfection on its beauty...

And I think that sooner or later there will be somebody who will get some trophies on this kind of card and might want to trade it. So it would be good if there would be any option to do so.

Turtlewing
08-27-2013, 12:29 PM
Making the free starter tradable is a bad idea for several reasons:

1. It becomes possible to trade away enough cards that you can no longer build a legal deck.

2. The secondary market value for any card that appears in the free starter(s) will approach 0 owing to unbounded supply. (this is arguably not a problem but you have to be prepared for there to exist literally worthless cards which many are not).

3. It's unwise to encourage players to create multiple accounts to raid them for cards, because that will add noise to their exploit detection methods.

If you allow the starter deck to unlock for trading after a set time you still have to deal with all those issues, you just kick the can down the road by however long the delay is.

The currently planned system of "Every account gets one free bound starter deck, and can buy boosters/starters which are tradable" is a pretty elegant solution.

keldrin
08-27-2013, 11:52 PM
I think that if you spend enough time to foil/EA cards from starters, then those cards should be tradeable; a just reward for your time, effort and dedication.

I would be for that. You're not going to gain much in value. But I don't see the harm in it.
Way to much time compared to potential value to make it a problem with people farming it.

keldrin
08-27-2013, 11:56 PM
Since devaluing the card pulled from a pack, being the same as your card from a free pack, the same could also be said for any set rare in a pay for deck of cards. It's value can never rise above the cost of a deck since you can auto get one from a deck.
Add to that, it will push a lot more of those rare cards into circulation further devaluing those rares. I can picture feeling a bit cheated when you pull a rare from a pack that comes automatically in one of the buy able decks.
*and here's the rabbit hole tangent*

Malicus
08-28-2013, 01:49 AM
Since devaluing the card pulled from a pack, being the same as your card from a free pack, the same could also be said for any set rare in a pay for deck of cards. It's value can never rise above the cost of a deck since you can auto get one from a deck.
Add to that, it will push a lot more of those rare cards into circulation further devaluing those rares. I can picture feeling a bit cheated when you pull a rare from a pack that comes automatically in one of the buy able decks.
*and here's the rabbit hole tangent*

I would be curious how they reconcile this with print runs. Do they generate print runs to produce the decks and can the unused cards (assuming most cards in pre-made starters would be mutually exclusive especially on mono) probably not that difficult to do though does raise the relative scarcity of any rare/legendary not included in a pre-made. AA will have a large impact on these things too though.

For me I would prefer some method of unlocking the free starters provided there isn't anything approaching a chase card available in them. The main reason for me is the same reason I would prefer there not be things like untradable boosters since it creates a disconnect, restrictions are acceptable and they should be based on effort either through time spent actively playing or even via a suitable gold sink.

My opinion on this changes completely if there are any potentially rare cards in the starter pack and would then expect a $10 purchase to unlock the cards for trading.

Mathaw
08-28-2013, 03:24 AM
[ I've since adjusted my view on this, see the post below this one :) ]

It's a TCG, I think all the cards should be tradable.

As others have pointed, the economy would provide the solution anyway. There's no exploit to be had with free cards, short of devaluing them.

I think the only viable way of handling a non-trading set of cards is to do what MTGO do and have the planeswalkers deck. A special deck of unique cards that every account has that can't be traded.

Otherwise it starts to sound fiddly and will involve bolted on trade rules that don't really provide a tangible benefit for anyone.

Mathaw
08-28-2013, 03:29 AM
I would be curious how they reconcile this with print runs. Do they generate print runs to produce the decks and can the unused cards (assuming most cards in pre-made starters would be mutually exclusive especially on mono) probably not that difficult to do though does raise the relative scarcity of any rare/legendary not included in a pre-made. AA will have a large impact on these things too though.

For me I would prefer some method of unlocking the free starters provided there isn't anything approaching a chase card available in them. The main reason for me is the same reason I would prefer there not be things like untradable boosters since it creates a disconnect, restrictions are acceptable and they should be based on effort either through time spent actively playing or even via a suitable gold sink.

My opinion on this changes completely if there are any potentially rare cards in the starter pack and would then expect a $10 purchase to unlock the cards for trading.

Actually I understand this perspective and think that your last suggestion is apt. Maybe it;s easier to consider the free deck on loan. i.e. you can't sell the cards as you don't 'own' them.

I still think it adds a layer of unnecessary complication - but perhaps a consequence of the F2P mechanic (for better or worse).

Diesbudt
08-28-2013, 05:31 AM
No reason to. The point of not selling the starter decks goes beyond market manipulation.

It is to ensure you always have the cards to play for free. If something was to say happen to all your other cards.

Malicus
08-28-2013, 07:19 AM
No reason to. The point of not selling the starter decks goes beyond market manipulation.

It is to ensure you always have the cards to play for free. If something was to say happen to all your other cards.

But if you have nothing else why wouldn't you simply start another account in this extreme case.

Mathaw
08-28-2013, 07:51 AM
No reason to. The point of not selling the starter decks goes beyond market manipulation.

It is to ensure you always have the cards to play for free. If something was to say happen to all your other cards.

In which case it should be a restricted deck, like in MTGO.

zadies
08-28-2013, 09:08 PM
We don't even know for sure that the free deck is a PvP deck. I don't remember it being said anywhere. It could just as easily be equivalent of a lv1 pve deck.

Sholynyk
08-29-2013, 02:52 PM
I am assuming the free deck will be both pve and pvp, I dont think there should be so many people making a big issue over this. I personally hope you cannot even level the starting deck so that it encourages people to go out and explore the pve nature to collect cards for that so they can trade for what they want. or spend money on boosters. the free deck should just be something to get your feet wet and experience a small portion of the game and you should try to upgrade away from that deck as soon as you are able

Xenavire
08-29-2013, 07:21 PM
I think they stated somewhere the free starter will be made up of enough PvP cards to be able to play, but I could be wrong.

Regardless, I could live with them being tradable if A) they were only common/uncommon, and B) they were locked to PvE once traded. No exceptions. And C) whatever they could be destroyed for were so worthless that you would need at least 5 accounts worth of cards to get close to a normal common card.

And even that might be too lenient.

Shadowelf
08-29-2013, 08:32 PM
We don't even know for sure that the free deck is a PvP deck. I don't remember it being said anywhere. It could just as easily be equivalent of a lv1 pve deck.


I am assuming the free deck will be both pve and pvp, I dont think there should be so many people making a big issue over this.


I think they stated somewhere the free starter will be made up of enough PvP cards to be able to play, but I could be wrong.



Q:The web site for Hex indicates that new accounts will start with a starter and booster. I hope supporting through KS does not replace that.
A:The free to play game begins the player with one starter, these are specifically designed for a great new player experience, the starters that will be sold separately (and are offered as rewards on this Kickstarter are different and slightly more advanced), none of the rewards you receive thru Kickstarter will diminish what you would have received otherwise.

New player experience; it doesn't specify pvp/pve so it is right to assume that the starters will be used in both formats (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24758&page=3&p=238847#post238847)



Every player gets a starter deck and can earn additional cards through PvE and tournaments. The optional $4 monthly subscription provides a player with additional common decks and what are known in TCG circles as booster cards (http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/28/hex-the-mmo-is-in-the-cards/)

Too sleepy to search more...but this has to do :)