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FeelNFine
08-27-2013, 11:08 PM
The biggest reason why I did not kickstart this game is because I was not (and still am not) sure that it will be allowed to live. The system is Magic, many of the cards are renamed Magic cards, even the client shown in the kickstarter looks like Magic's Duels of the Planeswalkers client.

Once this goes live what is to stop Wizards of the coast from pursuing legal action? Is there an exit strategy? Do we already have a backdoor deal saying Wizards get 10% of profits?

keldrin
08-27-2013, 11:14 PM
I believe that how the game plays has enough revolutionary changes to make them outside of copyright infringement.
I'm sure they have done their footwork to make sure that there won't be any significant legal problems.

Chiany
08-27-2013, 11:25 PM
I believe that how the game plays has enough revolutionary changes to make them outside of copyright infringement.
I'm sure they have done their footwork to make sure that there won't be any significant legal problems.

This.

Xtopher
08-27-2013, 11:26 PM
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe many of Magic's patents expired so game developer's have more freedom in terms of borrowing mechanics.

keldrin
08-27-2013, 11:41 PM
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe many of Magic's patents expired so game developer's have more freedom in terms of borrowing mechanics.

Yes, there's a 14 year patent, which should date from 1997.

FeelNFine
08-27-2013, 11:42 PM
I believe that how the game plays has enough revolutionary changes to make them outside of copyright infringement.
I'm sure they have done their footwork to make sure that there won't be any significant legal problems.

The ability to remember stat changes on a card as it leaves play, and to modify cards in an opponents deck is new yes, but it's rather trivial in comparison to what is identical to Magic. I don't think 'but we added a new mechanic' is a viable legal defence.

@Xtopher I never heard so, and I hope your right, but it doesn't seem like wizards to just let something like that expired... then again D&D 3.5 became freeware in a way.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-27-2013, 11:58 PM
@Xtopher I never heard so, and I hope your right, but it doesn't seem like wizards to just let something like that expired... then again D&D 3.5 became freeware in a way.
I'm no legal expert, but I don't think they have a choice in the matter. It's my understanding that you can get a patent when you design or invent something new, which will protect your creation for a period of years so that you can generate your rightful profits from it, and then after that the concept is free for others to use as inspiration.

funktion
08-28-2013, 01:27 AM
I remember someone asking Cory a question related to this while we were all just standing around on Thursday of GenCon, he had a few things to say and seemed pretty confident (to put it mildly).

Really though, my answer would be don't worry about it. Sure it's something that would be pretty catastrophic for the game, but it is COMPLETELY outside our sphere of influence as players. The sun might not come up tomorrow, but I tend to not worry about things I can't control.

With that said, by kickstarting we were taking a risk for sure, but if you haven't kickstarted yet you really have nothing to lose so I see even less of a reason for you to be worried.

Shadowelf
08-28-2013, 01:57 AM
I'm no legal expert, but I don't think they have a choice in the matter. It's my understanding that you can get a patent when you design or invent something new, which will protect your creation for a period of years so that you can generate your rightful profits from it, and then after that the concept is free for others to use as inspiration.

This; both in European and US law, patents have a duration of 20 years, starting from the actual date of filling the application
(source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_patent). Mtg's patents have probably expired, considering the fact that mtg was released August 1993...

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-28-2013, 02:00 AM
Yep - just to get a bit more information, I did a quick google too, and found this:


What happens when a patent expires?

At the end of a patent’s life, the patent expires and the inventor no longer has any rights in his invention. Thus, anyone who wants to make or sell that invention is now free to do so. Generally, when the patent for a product expires, other companies will begin to offer comparative products at a lower price. The most common example of this is with pharmaceutical drugs. After the patent on a name brand drug expires, competitors will begin selling a “generic” version of that same drug, because the original pharmaceutical company no longer has the ability to protect the make-up of its brand name drug.
From http://www.quizlaw.com/patents/what_happens_when_a_patent_exp.php

Vengus
08-28-2013, 02:18 AM
I asked myself the same thing but assumed CRZ has enough legal info themselves to make sure this is allowed. If for some reason WotC decides to sue them for it that doesn't automatically mean the end for HEX, it would mean they have to redesign the cardgame. It would take a while, but in the worst case scenario it can be done.

Mathaw
08-28-2013, 02:53 AM
The biggest reason why I did not kickstart this game is because I was not (and still am not) sure that it will be allowed to live. The system is Magic, many of the cards are renamed Magic cards, even the client shown in the kickstarter looks like Magic's Duels of the Planeswalkers client.

Once this goes live what is to stop Wizards of the coast from pursuing legal action? Is there an exit strategy? Do we already have a backdoor deal saying Wizards get 10% of profits?

Although a valid concern at conception, I think it's safe to assume that they've consulted with the relevant legal experts :)

It's also very difficult to protect game mechanics; hence why games like Call of Duty, Saints Row etc. are able to exist. Can you imagine a landscape with only 1 POV shooter?

The only thing Wizards could act on would be design copyright; i.e. if Hex stole card artwork. Which they haven't.

Gulbech
08-28-2013, 03:42 AM
Pretty sure the are safe.

First off it seems like the patent has expired, if they got it at the beginning of MTG. So they cant sue another company for using the same mechanics and ideas, just as long they make their own and not just copy everything. This is mostly because of copyright.

2nd. Patent is not always as strong as people think, I helped a company seek 3 different pattens. We got them all, but will still make it possible for competitors to just tweak the product and call it their own. It is almost impossible to hold a general patten, like Apple tried with triangle shaped laptops :rolleyes:, or phones who reacted to touch.

So just because some mechanics are alike, just the difference in playing lands and have a tresshold and energy pool should be enough.

Khazrakh
08-28-2013, 04:46 AM
The biggest reason why I did not kickstart this game is because I was not (and still am not) sure that it will be allowed to live. The system is Magic, many of the cards are renamed Magic cards, even the client shown in the kickstarter looks like Magic's Duels of the Planeswalkers client.

Fun fact: The biggest reason why I kickstarted Hex was because the system is Magic. So far it seems to take everything that's good in Magic and improve everything else.
Hex is going to be everything that MTGO could or should have been and more ;)

Diesbudt
08-28-2013, 05:18 AM
The biggest reason why I did not kickstart this game is because I was not (and still am not) sure that it will be allowed to live. The system is Magic, many of the cards are renamed Magic cards, even the client shown in the kickstarter looks like Magic's Duels of the Planeswalkers client.

Once this goes live what is to stop Wizards of the coast from pursuing legal action? Is there an exit strategy? Do we already have a backdoor deal saying Wizards get 10% of profits?

1) Patent expired. Unlike artistic patents, these cannot be renewed without a very good reason. (It wasn't renewed), so any game may now use everything from it directly.

2) There are a lot of changes. Permanent card effects. Random card effects (a digital only technology). The way energy is used. The name of the energies. The name of the card mechanics (such as vigilance/haste and so on). The card names will be different. There are charge powers. You are attacking a champion (A "card" that has 20 life and 'powers', and not the player like in MtG). Some cards can also be socketed. (Need I go on?)

3) This game is digital only. MtG has a much much bigger physical presence than digital. So the "competition" isn't 100% there as the main products are 2 different things. The UI is different also.

I looked all into this before I backed. And it took maaayybee 15 minutes. Can WotC sue? Yes you can sue over anything. Would they win? Very Doubtful.

Norious
08-28-2013, 05:47 AM
[url]http://www.gamepolitics.com/2012/11/02/wizards-coast-sued-magic-gathering-online-patent-infringement-claims#.Uh3xHOUvZHg[/
url]

A patent troll? news to me

Norious
08-28-2013, 05:53 AM
I don't understand legalese but i found this patent. Is this for the card game or a toy? http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r=1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=7201374.PN.&OS=PN/7201374&RS=PN/7201374

Mathaw
08-28-2013, 06:57 AM
Fun fact: The biggest reason why I kickstarted Hex was because the system is Magic. So far it seems to take everything that's good in Magic and improve everything else.
Hex is going to be everything that MTGO could or should have been and more ;)

Same here! After playing MTGO and being pretty phased by how crappy it was I was so happy to see someone was doing it properly ;)

Mathaw
08-28-2013, 07:01 AM
I don't understand legalese but i found this patent. Is this for the card game or a toy? http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r=1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=7201374.PN.&OS=PN/7201374&RS=PN/7201374

? "The model has multiple movable parts, where under the rules of play, the model begins in an assembled configuration."

That's just some random patent for a collectable game - not sure I see the relevance?

Anyways Cryptozoic isn't a couple guys in a shed having a bash at making a game, I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing ;)

KiraForce
08-28-2013, 07:12 AM
Had a tl;dr moment with it, but this is Magic's ACTUAL patent, from the patent office. File in 1995, meaning it has 2 more years before it expires.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,662,332.PN.&OS=PN/5,662,332&RS=PN/5,662,332

Mathaw
08-28-2013, 07:18 AM
Had a tl;dr moment with it, but this is Magic's ACTUAL patent, from the patent office. File in 1995, meaning it has 2 more years before it expires.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,662,332.PN.&OS=PN/5,662,332&RS=PN/5,662,332

I'm not entirely sure that's the pertinent patent (if there even is one). As after a brief look that's so broad that potentially every TCG is infringing on it.

IANAL

EDIT: Also looks like the expirary is more complex than advertised:

If the patent application filing date is after June 8, 1995, the nominal expiration date is 20 years from the earliest non-provisional priority claim upon which the patent is based. On the other hand, if the patent application filing date was on or before June 8, 1995, the nominal expiration date is the longer of 17 years from the date of issue or 20 years from the earliest non-provisional priority claim.

KiraForce
08-28-2013, 07:21 AM
Thing that made me link it was seeing this:

"Some creatures naturally have specialty abilities and any creature with the appropriate creature enchantments may acquire special abilities. Some special abilities are described below.

Regeneration: Regeneration prevents a creature from going to the graveyard. This ability must be used the moment the creature would normally be removed from play. Creatures that have already been discarded into the graveyard cannot be regenerated. Enchantments of a regenerated creature remain in play. When a creature is regenerated, it is always tapped. A creature that is sacrificed may not be regenerated.

Evasion abilities: Some creatures have the ability flies, which means they can only be blocked by other flying creatures. Other creatures have the ability landwalk such as swampwalk, or forestwalk. If the defender has a land of the relevant type in play, such as swamp or forest, the attacking creatures cannot be blocked, even by creatures having the same landwalk ability.

Bands: A creature with the ability bands has two special powers. A banding creature may join forces with another attacking creature. The resulting band must be blocked or let through as a unit. If any creature in the band is blocked, the entire band is blocked. There can be more than two creatures in an attacking band, although all but one must have the banding ability..."

And on, and on. But yeah, it's more specific than it seems.

Mathaw
08-28-2013, 07:45 AM
Thing that made me link it was seeing this:

"Some creatures naturally have specialty abilities and any creature with the appropriate creature enchantments may acquire special abilities. Some special abilities are described below.

Regeneration: Regeneration prevents a creature from going to the graveyard. This ability must be used the moment the creature would normally be removed from play. Creatures that have already been discarded into the graveyard cannot be regenerated. Enchantments of a regenerated creature remain in play. When a creature is regenerated, it is always tapped. A creature that is sacrificed may not be regenerated.

Evasion abilities: Some creatures have the ability flies, which means they can only be blocked by other flying creatures. Other creatures have the ability landwalk such as swampwalk, or forestwalk. If the defender has a land of the relevant type in play, such as swamp or forest, the attacking creatures cannot be blocked, even by creatures having the same landwalk ability.

Bands: A creature with the ability bands has two special powers. A banding creature may join forces with another attacking creature. The resulting band must be blocked or let through as a unit. If any creature in the band is blocked, the entire band is blocked. There can be more than two creatures in an attacking band, although all but one must have the banding ability..."

And on, and on. But yeah, it's more specific than it seems.

That's the description though (for context) the bits that are actually covered, strictly, by the patent are the three claims at the top. Just an FYI.

KiraForce
08-28-2013, 08:02 AM
I'm not entirely sure that's the pertinent patent (if there even is one). As after a brief look that's so broad that potentially every TCG is infringing on it.

IANAL

EDIT: Also looks like the expirary is more complex than advertised:

If the patent application filing date is after June 8, 1995, the nominal expiration date is 20 years from the earliest non-provisional priority claim upon which the patent is based. On the other hand, if the patent application filing date was on or before June 8, 1995, the nominal expiration date is the longer of 17 years from the date of issue or 20 years from the earliest non-provisional priority claim.

They filed in October so it is the 20 years in that case.

Hibbert
08-28-2013, 08:07 AM
The MTG patent is broad enough to apply to just about every card game that has come out in recent years. It definitely would have applied to the WoW TCG. Yet the only legal action Wizards/Hasbro has ever taken related to the patent has been on the Pokemon card game, and that only came about because of the license issues between Nintendo and Wizards.

From this we can infer one or both of the following about the patent:

1. The patent is purely a protective patent, designed to stop a patent troll from patenting a TCG system and demanding fees from WotC.

2. The patent has no teeth. WotC filed the patent, made some inquires to other TCG companies' lawyers, and realized they didn't have much of a standing if they went to court. This is backed up by the only court case being against a "partner", in which case the idea that they profited directly from the patent is a bit easier for the courts to swallow.

BossHoss
08-28-2013, 08:13 AM
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=8

Then scroll down half way to a blood card named: Matt Dunn

I would post the pic but unable to due to current firewall.

The flavor text on this card makes me believer!

Mathaw
08-28-2013, 08:51 AM
They filed in October so it is the 20 years in that case.

Ah, semantics, but important ones: they filed in June 2004, it was filed in October 2005. I believe the date Wizards filed the patent is the important date.

Patents ay?

keroko
08-28-2013, 09:51 AM
if wizards or hasbro or whomever owns them had anything they could take action on, they'd have done it by now you'd imagine.

Xintia
08-28-2013, 10:22 AM
I know everyone on the Internet is an expert on everything, but it really comes down to one thing folks. CZE is not three guys working in a shed. This is a large company with significant experience in game design and development. They absolutely consulted legal advice before embarking on HEX. They would not have developed the game to this point, sought Kickstarter funding, etc. if they were not fully confident that the game would "survive" any potential legal challenge, be it from Wizards of the Coast or any other entity. To think otherwise would mean that you assume CZE are a bunch of amateurs and fools, and that simply isn't the case. HEX will succeed or fail on its own merits, not because it "died" in a courtroom.

Svenn
08-28-2013, 10:35 AM
There is one really big difference that might matter... and that's resources. Hex doesn't use lands. An important part of MTG (in terms of patents) is that it uses a mechanic where tapping the land generates you specific colored resources to play new cards. There is no tapping of lands to generate resource points, there is simply a number of resources that you have. There is no colored mana, it's all colorless. Threshold is something MTG doesn't use. These things are different concepts with similar functionality that could have a big impact on whether or not it violates a patent, I think.

And of course I'm not even close to a lawyer, but from patent stuff I've seen in the past differences like these can be a big factor in whether something violates a patent or not.

And, as people have already said, it's hard to believe they would have gotten this far without knowing whether or not it would be okay. There is always the possibility that WotC would try and sue Hex if it becomes a huge success, but I really think it's fine.

Diesbudt
08-28-2013, 10:43 AM
EDIT: Also looks like the expirary is more complex than advertised:

If the patent application filing date is after June 8, 1995, the nominal expiration date is 20 years from the earliest non-provisional priority claim upon which the patent is based. On the other hand, if the patent application filing date was on or before June 8, 1995, the nominal expiration date is the longer of 17 years from the date of issue or 20 years from the earliest non-provisional priority claim.

If the Filing date is AFTER/BEFORE June 8, 1995.

Application filing date = (Application #263447) [Jun., 1994]
(This application is a division of pending application Ser. No. 08/263,447 filed Jun. 22, 1994. )

So from that it is 17 years from date of issue. Date of issue is = 17years after Oct. 17 1995 = Oct. 17 2012. (The 20 year from non provisional priority claim was not in affect for this. so 17 years is the correct time to add)

The patent has thus expired.

FeelNFine
08-28-2013, 11:19 AM
Well I don't know about everyone else, but I feel like I've learned a lot. Yes, I get that CZE is a big company, andd assumedly they've done their legal homework, but what was bugging me was just that, it's an assumption. I couldn't find anyone saying the homework is done in any official capacity.

Shaqattaq
08-28-2013, 11:26 AM
Let me give you his business card

http://i.imgur.com/pS652vd.jpg

FeelNFine
08-28-2013, 11:28 AM
Well that's a relief!

Frank1397
08-28-2013, 01:23 PM
Magic the gathering first test run whas in 1991. Due to popularity and copying of the game.WOTC sought help and found it with Cartamundi. Wizard of the coast opend up there main hq in Belgium in 1993 and with the help of Cartamundi brought out the game.

Cartamundi is one off the few company's in the world that my produce gamble cards and products. The cards of magic are special printed by cartamundi on special paper. The card and the art printed are protected my international gamble rules. Later things lake tab, band where placed under patents.

Mindless
08-28-2013, 01:35 PM
There should be enough difference in mechanics.

Another funny thing however is that this didn't cross my mind at all. Then again we aren't so afraid of being sued here in Sweden I think.


EDIT: removed question.

Vibraxus
08-28-2013, 01:39 PM
If they get sued they have to lose for anything bad to happen. And Ill make sure to get on the jury.....

blakegrandon
08-28-2013, 02:00 PM
If they get sued they have to lose for anything bad to happen. And Ill make sure to get on the jury.....

I don't think you understand how lawsuits work... Or how jury duty is determined. Or when juries are used...

It doesn't matter whether WOTC has a case.

It doesn't matter how much legal expertise Cryptozoic brings to the table.

It doesn't matter what patents,trademarks, or reasons WOTC uses to initiate a lawsuit.

The only things that matter are whether or not a judge will immediately dismiss said lawsuits, whether WOTC wants to be a douchebag litigating company, and whether Cryptozoic gets on WOTC's radar.

Large companies sue each other without basis ALL the time, and it doesn't even need to be successful in order to cause problems, litigation can lead to delays in releases, huge legal bills, and a ton of headaches for everyone involved.

Just because someone holds up a paper that says they consulted a lawyer doesn't mean a lawsuit can't happen.

Apple and Samsung have been suing each other without merit for decades and Microsoft is one of the biggest patent trolls there is.

Interesting fact is that Microsoft makes more money "licensing"(aka threaten to sue if the companies don't fork over cash) it's patents than it does actually selling products to consumers.

All of that said, I "hope" Cryptozoic never has to deal with any legal issues, but I also hope I win the lottery(that I don't play)...

At the end of the day the lawyers will pick and choose their battles and hopefully the game won't be impacted in any meaningful way.

Food for thought but We're more likely to see the economy utterly collapse(which would kinda impact anyone's ability to play Hex) before we see Cryptozoic go belly up due to litigation.

Kroan
08-28-2013, 02:48 PM
CZE, if you ever need any law advice, you better call saul!
http://www.bettercallsaul.com

Wombat
08-28-2013, 03:17 PM
Even if the patent somehow didnt expire until release, i think the patent mentioned does not apply to HEX. ( I am no native though and therefore i might have misinterpreted some of the information)

The patent consists out of three parts and if one of the parts can be applied to HEX, HEX would violate the rights of the patent holder.

Here the patent parts for each section that do not apply to HEX (Imo)

1. First part of the patent
"each player executing turns in sequence with other players by drawing, playing, and discarding game components in accordance with the rules until the game ends, said step of executing a turn comprises:

(a) making one or more game components from the player's hand of game components available for play by taking the one or more game components from the player's hand and placing the one or more game components on a playing surface; and

(b) bringing into play one or more of the available game components by:

(i) selecting one or more game components; and

(ii) designating the one or more game components being brought into play by rotating the one or more game components from an original orientation to a second orientation. "

So the first part of the patent does not apply to HEX because you do not tap cards/lands to play other cards.

2. Second part of the patent
"A method of playing a trading card game, the game components including rules of play, which include instructions on execution of a turn, and the predetermined number of cards in a library of trading cards and the hand of trading cards, and a reservoir of trading cards, the method of playing the card game for each player comprising the steps of:

collecting an individual pool of trading cards from the reservoir of trading cards by purchasing and trading with others;

constructing a library of a predetermined number of trading cards from the player's pool of trading cards by selecting individual cards the player elects to play with;

obtaining a hand of a predetermined number of trading cards from the player's library of trading cards; and

executing a turn at the player's option, in sequence with other players to, at the player's option, enter and remove one or more cards into and out of play in accordance with the rules, said step of executing a turn for each player comprises:

(a) drawing one or more trading cards from the library of trading card:

(b) entering one or more trading cards into play by placing the one or more trading cards face up in a first orientation on a playing surface, and at the player's option, using one or more trading cards that have been entered into play in accordance with the rules and tapping each trading card used in play so all players are aware the trading card is in use by turning the trading cards from the first orientation to a second orientation on the playing surface;"

Again, resources are a primary part in HEX and they are not played by placing them face up on the playing surface. Moreover you do not tap these resource tokens if they are used in play. (The thing is, other cards get played face up and get exhausted. Crypto still could get around point 2 of the patent by not limiting the cards in hand)

Subsection (c): "discarding one or more trading cards into a discard area on the playing surface as necessary to maintain the predetermined number of cards in the player's hand of trading cards. "

3. Third part of the patent
"3. A method of playing card games, the method being suitable for card games having rules of play and multiple copies of a plurality of cards, the rules of play including instructions on executing turns, the predetermined number of cards in the players library and hand of cards, and the objective of the game, the method comprising the steps of:

each player obtaining a pool of cards from the multiple copies of the plurality of cards by purchasing or trading with others or playing a card game with others for ante;

each player constructing a library of a predetermined number of cards by examining and selecting cards from the player's pool of cards;

each player obtaining a hand of a predetermined number of cards from the player's library of cards by first shuffling the player's library of cards and randomly drawing the hand of cards therefrom; and

each player executing a turn until the game concludes in accordance with the rules of play, said step of executing a turn includes placing one or more cards on a playing surface for other players to see the playing face on the one or more cards and designating one or more of the cards on the playing surface for entry into play."

HEX does not use cards on the playing field in order to play cards from hand.

Vibraxus
08-28-2013, 03:34 PM
I don't think you understand how lawsuits work... Or how jury duty is determined. Or when juries are used...


Im sorry, perhaps I will use my sarcasm/joke font next time.

Carry on.

gohan661
08-28-2013, 04:31 PM
I know America is loads worse than everywhere else for suing but surely you can not patent a rules list for a card game. Patent the name, card likenesses, logos and such but a list of rules is stoooooopid

Zomnivore
08-28-2013, 04:41 PM
Many fps also use very very similar systems long established and honed.

No one feels like they own the genre or can sue because it, even if the games play very similarly with a few nuanced differences.

How many RPGS use a DND like system today? If you were wanting and even more applicable example.

Deathfog
08-28-2013, 06:02 PM
Game mechanics can't be copyrighted, been that way for quite a long time. Specific unique terms and specific names/characters/art can be.

Gwaer
08-28-2013, 06:04 PM
That's why we don't tap cards, we exhaust them. They lie down to take a nap after exerting themselves for my honor and glory!

Nicalapegus
08-28-2013, 10:22 PM
This game isn't a complete copy of MTG, even though people would argue that it is. The resource system is completely reworked. This is a MMO. There are cards which evolve 3+ times. Equipment. Etc etc etc....

RaiZenGar
08-28-2013, 10:57 PM
I know America is loads worse than everywhere else for suing but surely you can not patent a rules list for a card game. Patent the name, card likenesses, logos and such but a list of rules is stoooooopid
The things you listed fall under copyright, not patents.

keroko
08-29-2013, 07:10 AM
alright - I've said it myself. They lifted a core out of magic. They did - in turn structure, play type, cost mechanics from a superficial standpoint etc.

Stealing the essence of magic and reskinning it in a pretty UI would have been atrocious and simply leapfrogging what that crew who do duels of the planeswalkers had been inching towards, or a flat up clone of MTGO with some renames for 'vigilance' etc. and again a nicer UI.

You could make this arguement well. However, I disagree that the intent was to clone a given CG or game interface. The UI is strata, the symptomatic output of the game client's operation.

At core we should consider rules no? Has CZE made concrete advancements / contribution to the tcg/mmo ecosystem with this product? For a plethora of reasons we've all discussed elsewhere I think they have.

Hex will be measured against all existing and historic alternatives, we'll see.

Grumph
08-29-2013, 09:57 AM
I believe that when it comes to video games it is pretty hard for one company to sue another due to using similar features. Look at Runes of Magic and WoW. I only played Runes of Magic for a few hours but it was insanely similar to WoW. As far as I know, blizzard didn't even attempt to sue over it.

WotC has been in a position to release an amazing online TCG and they really dropped the ball on this. Every MTG game that I have played has been disappointing. MTGO with their super old interface and physical pack prices or DotP with barely editable decks and yearly releases of what feels like the same game with 2 or 3 new features. WoTC has been putting out crappy video games for nearly 2 decades, I'm certainly glad someone came along and saw the potential in a well developed digital TCG with up an up to date UI and reasonable prices.

keroko
08-29-2013, 12:14 PM
and theres rabbits and pve! who'd you sue for that?

Shrennan
08-29-2013, 12:18 PM
Look at DotA and the inspired games it created: Heroes of Newerth, League of Legends, and DotA 2. Blizzard didn't sue any of those games (although I believe there was a legal battle over Valve using the DotA name, which is why the DotA in DotA 2 is not an acronym for Defense of the Ancients). Regardless, CZE will be fine. Hex definitely differentiates itself from Magic, more than it actually even needs to legally.

Something tells me that CZE wouldn't spend, what was it? $2 million big ones and 2 years of development prior to the Kickstarter if CZE thought Hex couldn't be made due to Magic. =P