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blakegrandon
08-31-2013, 06:44 AM
So which way do you guys swing when it comes to tapping your cards IRL?

I brought it up a while ago in another thread, and as far as I know no one has actually created a thread.

But it almost seems sacrilegious for Hex to turn to the left when "tapping" a card.

Then again back in HS there would always be "THAT" guy who would swing to the left even though everyone I ever played with casually or professionally would swing to the right.

Is Cory "THAT" guy?

I sincerely hope it will be a interface option that will let us choose which way tapping works. While it seems like a "trivial" issue it's a significant part of game interaction that could throw people off their game.

Swing/Tap to the right, always, 100% of the time.

Chiany
08-31-2013, 06:47 AM
But if it lets you choose, wouldn't it just let the player see it tap that way, regardless how the opponent has set it?
Like that in Hex, cards will always are turned towards you when untapped, not upside down (your opponents cards)as IRL.

blakegrandon
08-31-2013, 06:54 AM
But if it lets you choose, wouldn't it just let the player see it tap that way, regardless how the opponent has set it?
Like that in Hex, cards will always are turned towards you when untapped, not upside down (your opponents cards)as IRL.

I see it as Interface personalization, why not let people choose which way THEY see the cards tapped?

I don't really care about which way my opponent taps or swings his cards, but it will annoy me if I'm forced to tap to the left.

I mean, I have about two decades of MTG history that influences the way I tap cards and do things like shuffling.

This tapping to the left is like telling me to learn to write with my left hand when the only thing I know is how to write with my right hand. Or expecting me to know how to write in cursive when the last time I wrote in cursive was like the 5th grade!

Aradon
08-31-2013, 06:56 AM
I always tap to the left, direction of the tap arrows be damned :P
It's an easier motion for my right hand to do, so that's why. I don't imagine the Hex client will give an option, since I doubt it's a visual preference for anyone. It's just an ease of motion thing.

Shadowelf
08-31-2013, 06:56 AM
I consider this a minor incovenience; i always swing to the right but i have seen all sorts of swinging over the years and i got used to it. We even had a guy at our local game shop that was stacking his lands or his creatures before tapping/swinging. Can't tell you how annoying it felt to have to separate them in order to proper block, or when i had to play around his untapped lands :D

ossuary
08-31-2013, 07:21 AM
Much as I hate to agree with anything blake has to say (;)), it bugs the crap out of me that the Hex cards currently tap to the left. It looks wrong, it feels wrong. I really hope they change this. I know it's a stupid little thing, but it totally irritates me. :)

Ceracha
08-31-2013, 08:11 AM
I never thought about it before, but I always tap to the left when I play MTG. I don't know why.

Xenavire
08-31-2013, 08:16 AM
Why is this even an issue? I never cared which way my cards tapped, and neither did anyone I know. No joke here, most tapped left because it was just the easier motion, but I never heard a comment on which was the correct or less annoying way - people just did what felt natural.

I mean, the obvious thing is they are tapped, right? Who cares, there is no 'this way up' on cards either, so you could just as easily play everything upside down. The creator of the tap symbol just chose an arbitrary direction to be simpler. Think about it, having a symbol that pointed both directions would be even more confusing, right?

It is a non-issue, but I see no harm in having the option for those who are so inclined to be that anal about it. (No offence meant, as some people literally cannot help it - for example, anyone with OCD may not only tap right, but tap it several times before letting go of the card.)

Stok3d
08-31-2013, 08:25 AM
Many "differences" are done for a reason. The action of "exhausting" or as MTG says "tapping" is under a patent. I specifically see verbage that states 90 degrees in the design patent. Realize -90degrees is definately something different. However the MTG Design Patent (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,662,332.PN.&OS=PN/5,662,332&RS=PN/5,662,332) expires 9/2/14. Maybe after this date we could see an option in settings to choose left or right tap. I dunno--this is only my personal speculation.

blakegrandon
08-31-2013, 08:31 AM
Many "differences" are done for a reason. The action of "exhausting" or as MTG says "tapping" is under a patent. I haven't read deep enough to see if it includes a specific direction. However the MTG Design Patent (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,662,332.PN.&OS=PN/5,662,332&RS=PN/5,662,332) expires 9/2/14. Maybe after this date we could see an option in settings to choose left or right tap. I dunno--this is only my personal speculation.

I thought it might have to do with patents, or else Cory is just one of those blasphemers that taps to the left.

I would have been disowned as a child for tapping to the left, it was one of those unspoken house rules growing up. At least I won't cringe as much when people online are playing without "sleeves"(that always annoyed me as well in MTG/Pokemon...), but tapping to the left is one of those things that will get at me slowly but surely.

Just curious for those tapping to the left, are you left handed or right handed?

Gen91
08-31-2013, 08:43 AM
I always tap to the left, direction of the tap arrows be damned :P
It's an easier motion for my right hand to do, so that's why. I don't imagine the Hex client will give an option, since I doubt it's a visual preference for anyone. It's just an ease of motion thing.

From Magic I rember once a left handed guy told us, that we right handed guys are tapping the cards to the wrong side, cause the the tap symbol points to the right.

Maybe the one who designed the tap symbol was left handed?
Do someone know this^^?

Mr.Funsocks
08-31-2013, 08:44 AM
The new exhaust icon even shows exhausting to the right. And I HIGHLY doubt "tapping" a card to the right vs the left is going to be something WotC seriously sues over.

Bekkir
08-31-2013, 08:51 AM
Just curious for those tapping to the left, are you left handed or right handed?

Im right handed and Ive always tapped to the left, as do most of the people I play with. For the most part I hold my hand of cards in my left hand so I can draw, cast, discard, and tap with my right hand as it feels more natural. To me I just reach out, put my hand on the card and turn it 90 degrees counterclockwise, just like I do with a doorknob.

Chiany
08-31-2013, 08:56 AM
Just curious for those tapping to the left, are you left handed or right handed?

Right handed, always tap to the left.

Corpselocker
08-31-2013, 09:10 AM
I just spin the card until it is not vertical:P I am not ashamed of my swinging orientation.

Zomnivore
08-31-2013, 09:24 AM
Is this some subtle lampoon? If so thank you for caring enough to use subtle manipulation. Is this still post modern or is it post-post modernism? I don't even know where the hell I'm at at this point.

ossuary
08-31-2013, 09:31 AM
I tap to the right because the old "T" icon for tapping was tilted to the right (and when they released the new tap icon a couple of years later, it also clearly showed the card being tilted to the right). I'm a little bit OCD, so to my young mind at the time, tapping to the right was the only "right" way to do it. :)

Mr.Funsocks
08-31-2013, 09:33 AM
To the right is CLEARLY the correct way.

Xenavire
08-31-2013, 09:48 AM
I am right handed for what its worth. I would never say I 'don't tap to the right', because I probably do without noticing it now and then - the card just goes sideways. I do know I feel most comfortable with left tapping though.

tautologico
08-31-2013, 10:09 AM
I'm right-handed, I tap with my right hand so obviously and naturally I tap to the left. I don't care if other people tap to the right or left because I have more important things to worry about in my life :)

blakegrandon
08-31-2013, 01:05 PM
To the right is CLEARLY the correct way.

Thank god someone gets it.

I bet most of you tap to the right and are just saying you tap to the left to be "different".

Tapping to the left makes no sense, just like the people that put their deck on their right hand side.

http://craphound.com/images/5983778721_c9cdc8d576_z.jpg

Deck on the left, tap to the right, lands along the bottom, creatures up top.

:rolleyes:

Aradon
08-31-2013, 01:24 PM
Deck on the left makes absolutely no sense. No reason to stretch across the table whenever I want to draw a card.

And no, I tap to the left. If I tapped to the right, I'd be among those saying how that's the right way to do it (because it is).

lucedes
08-31-2013, 01:42 PM
i'm ambidextrous, and i tap to the right.

but the deck goes on whatever side has more room.
or toward whichever elbow is less encumbered.

Trothael
08-31-2013, 02:00 PM
I tap both ways, if you know what I mean.

AmineHsu
08-31-2013, 03:42 PM
Woah, woah, woah. You clearly tap to the right, but the deck goes on the right, not the left...

blakegrandon
08-31-2013, 03:45 PM
Woah, woah, woah. You clearly tap to the right, but the deck goes on the right, not the left...

Whoa, do you hold the cards in your hand on your left hand or right hand?

This is all kinds of crazy, deck goes on the left because you draw with your left hand, while holding the "hand" in your right hand.

Drawing with your right hand, tapping to the left with your right hand, now we just need the people that put the mana above the creatures.

Ugh, so many blasphemers that got taught to play MTG in the wrong way.

Hopefully the UI will be customizable to "accommodate" everyone, the idea of an entire generation of people tapping the wrong way is depressing.

Xenavire
08-31-2013, 04:22 PM
Whoa, do you hold the cards in your hand on your left hand or right hand?

This is all kinds of crazy, deck goes on the left because you draw with your left hand, while holding the "hand" in your right hand.

Drawing with your right hand, tapping to the left with your right hand, now we just need the people that put the mana above the creatures.

Ugh, so many blasphemers that got taught to play MTG in the wrong way.

Hopefully the UI will be customizable to "accommodate" everyone, the idea of an entire generation of people tapping the wrong way is depressing.

There is no wrong way, because there are no specific rules on placements - as far as I am aware, someone could walk into regionals and place deck on the left, mana on the side of their creatures, and tap everything left while playing creatures upside down, and the judges couldn't even penalise them.

The 'right' way is based on perception, and widespread habits teach us to place the deck on the right (where it is comfortable for a good portion of us), and put mana under your creatures. This is further reinforced by digital games like DotP, which have static placements for everything.

Although if a judge or someone who has tried to play differently can tell me different I will redact this whole comment. But I have never heard of a person penalised for playing how they are comfortable (as long as they weren't attempting to cheat or make things intentionally confusing for their opponents.)

Aradon
08-31-2013, 04:34 PM
There is no wrong way, because there are no specific rules on placements - as far as I am aware, someone could walk into regionals and place deck on the left, mana on the side of their creatures, and tap everything left while playing creatures upside down, and the judges couldn't even penalise them.

The 'right' way is based on perception, and widespread habits teach us to place the deck on the right (where it is comfortable for a good portion of us), and put mana under your creatures. This is further reinforced by digital games like DotP, which have static placements for everything.

Although if a judge or someone who has tried to play differently can tell me different I will redact this whole comment. But I have never heard of a person penalised for playing how they are comfortable (as long as they weren't attempting to cheat or make things intentionally confusing for their opponents.)

An oldschool friend of mine showed me a manual he had from the early days of Magic, which contained the original board layout. I've been trying to find a picture of it from the internet, but had no luck. It pretty clearly showed the lands in front of the creatures, though.

FeelNFine
08-31-2013, 04:37 PM
I swing both ways, but I tap to the right, as I am right handed. Deck goes on the right, draw with right hand, cards in left hand, play with right hand, and tap using middle finger and thumb to go 90 degrees to the right. Just like a normal person... (I may have had to grab a deck to figure out what I 'normally' do.

Xenavire
08-31-2013, 04:40 PM
Introductory rulebooks are generally guidelines, but if that is true, then at least part of my statement can be proven to be complete horse(badwordhere).

But, my point would be a little more solid if I gave a clear example - Yugioh had playmats with all starter decks, and it clearly labelled every zone, and every place a card could be in play (barring hand and removed from play.) Magic, to my knowledge, never supplied playmats with designated zones etc, meaning players had the freedom to place things where they wanted, as long as it was clear what everything was used for.

Freedom can be a good thing, but it doesn't get abused, at least in magic, which is even better. (Having everything clear at one glance certainly helps in tournaments.)

ossuary
08-31-2013, 07:51 PM
I've had judges tell me off for using non-standard layouts that other players wouldn't "easily recognize" before. For awhile, my friends and I would lay our lands out in a stacked row at the bottom of the table, and use counters / stones to show how many of them were tapped (special lands were tapped separately, as was everything else), because we had a very limited amount of board space where we played. A couple of judges had a problem with that setup, even though it was way easier for both players to tell at a glance what was tapped and how many were available, without having piles everywhere or messing up your board every time you tapped a bunch of land.

I hate people who put all their lands in a pile so you can't tell how many are free (judges will stop this as well if they see it), or who dump all their tapped lands in a single pile, so you can't easily tell how many they've used up, either (very annoying when playing against decks that can untap their resources).

I actually prefer graveyard and library on the right as well, because I hold my cards in my left hand at all times, and draw / play / tap with my right.

Zomnivore
08-31-2013, 08:13 PM
I think information presenting systems can be optimized etc, we're always finding and studying new ways on how to do it.

Hopefully the ui/hud is something we can switch up at least post launch.

vickrpg
08-31-2013, 10:28 PM
Right Handed, manipulate everything with right hand, hold hand in left. Tap to the right with my right hand, usually by usuing index finger and middle finger (I can't even imagine tapping to the left with these two fingers). deck on right side, graveyard above the deck (from my perspective) removed cards to the right of graveyard. Lands in sliding ramp-piles by type/color, below the creatures, where they are all clearly visible by how many there are of what type, but still aren't spread out too much. sometimes I pile the tapped ones, to save space though. Unequipped and non-equipment artifacts to the left of creatures, non-creature enchantments to the left of those. Mana producing artifacts/enchants nearest to lands. Equipped/enchanted creatures on top of their equipment/enchantments, slightly shifted to the right and below, so their enchantments/equipment name and about 25% of the art is visible.

I can't play if I don't do ALL of these this same way.

ossuary
09-01-2013, 04:41 AM
It's always nice to know that I'm not the only OCD gamer out there. :)

But I agree completely... if things aren't laid out just so, it does't feel right. Although in my case enchantments / equipment on a creature are stacked straight up and down, not down and right (so each creature takes up the same amount of horizontal space regardless of how many enchants you have).

blakegrandon
09-01-2013, 12:07 PM
While this thread is a bit light-hearted(with most people thinking that the way you tap/swing being a non-critical feature), UI implementation really can make or break a game.

Pretty much every stock UI in mmorpg's I've played have allowed customization because the stock UI's suck and people have their own preferences.

Hell even the cursor icon can annoy me to the point where I won't play a game. I may be critical of my UI but if I'm looking at it for hundreds if not thousands of hours it's something that should be intuitive and customizable.

ossuary
09-01-2013, 02:04 PM
I don't even remember what the stock UI for World of Warcraft looked like anymore... I had that thing modded all to hell. :)

I certainly hope that some of the UI stuff will be opened up to API development, but it's not something that I would expect or even look for right away (there are more important things they can / should be working on for now).

Showsni
09-01-2013, 02:43 PM
Obviously, I tap to the right for paralysis, left for sleep, and upside down for confused.

Xenavire
09-01-2013, 03:44 PM
Obviously, I tap to the right for paralysis, left for sleep, and upside down for confused.

I actually remembered that when I first tried MTG - good times! Not that it changed how I tapped. I also ended up using counters for Pokemon (certain colours were certain effects) because poison was also a counter IIRC.

Truhls
09-01-2013, 09:29 PM
Honestly i learned to tap it so whatever looked like the front of the card was tapped into attacking facing them, and if a card had what looked the characters back on it you faced the back to the player. so i tapped both left/right depending on the card to make more sense in what action i was taking.

I then learned to tap by putting my pointer finger in the middle of the card and using my "fk you" finger on the top of the card to spin it right in one easy quick and clean motion. I started using that ever since just because its so efficient.

Vegetable
09-03-2013, 12:17 AM
I always tap the right and I was bugged out when I saw cards tap the left. It would be like being left handed in an FPS, just weird. I hope there's an option for it at least.

Svenn
09-03-2013, 06:36 AM
I swing both ways... to the left, to the right, it doesn't matter. Whichever is easier at the time. I think I tend to go left, just because I usually pick up and rotate with my right hand and that's easier. There have been times where I've had some going both ways at the same time though.

Diesbudt
09-03-2013, 06:39 AM
I just pick a direction on each tap and do it. I never just do it 1 way or another.

As long as the card went from vertical to horizontal, all is good.

Vorpal
09-03-2013, 08:27 AM
I've always gone to the left, without even thinking about it.

cuscus
09-03-2013, 10:30 AM
Left, right... I want my interface to put a little glass bead/stone on the cards I tap.

Khazrakh
09-03-2013, 10:43 AM
Thinking about it I always tap to left but in all honesty - I couldn't care less about what direction the cards are swinged to.

Quasari
09-03-2013, 11:02 AM
An oldschool friend of mine showed me a manual he had from the early days of Magic, which contained the original board layout. I've been trying to find a picture of it from the internet, but had no luck. It pretty clearly showed the lands in front of the creatures, though.

https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/jc20

Doesnt show that, but it does show decks on the right. Also doent define tapping other than turned on its side.

vickrpg
09-03-2013, 11:13 AM
https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/jc20

Doesn't show that, but it does show decks on the right. Also doesn't define tapping other than turned on its side.
Actually, by the orientation of the text in the tap diagram, I would say it strongly implies tapping to the right.

Gremio
09-03-2013, 11:46 AM
I can't believe for a second this kind of ratio of TCG enthusiasts from MTG tap to the left. I honestly don't think you people understand what tapped to the left looks like. I've played many tournaments in multiple regions, and online, going on 17-18 years now. In practically all cases everyone has always tapped to the right. It's what the cards have told us to do since Revised (which is when I started):
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/604

There have been a few odd scenarios where extremely unskilled and inexperienced players would come in and tap to the left--which yes, hurt my brain after playing for so many years. I don't mean that as an insult, that's just been my experience.

My OCD left-handed friend also brought up a good point that your cards are easier to read when tapped to the right (which may not matter in a digital world), because the letters are being read from top to bottom instead of bottom to top, which is weird for an English speaker/reader.

Khazrakh
09-03-2013, 12:47 PM
I can't believe for a second this kind of ratio of TCG enthusiasts from MTG tap to the left. I honestly don't think you people understand what tapped to the left looks like. I've played many tournaments in multiple regions, and online, going on 17-18 years now. In practically all cases everyone has always tapped to the right. It's what the cards have told us to do since Revised (which is when I started):
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/604


You've got me there good sir. Looking at the picture I have to admit I actually tap to the right. Never thought about that - funny.

Aradon
09-03-2013, 01:51 PM
My OCD left-handed friend also brought up a good point that your cards are easier to read when tapped to the right (which may not matter in a digital world), because the letters are being read from top to bottom instead of bottom to top, which is weird for an English speaker/reader.

I'm more comfortable tilting my head to the left to read side-ways, which means that cards tapped to the left are more legible than those tapped to the right.

Xenavire
09-03-2013, 02:05 PM
I can't believe for a second this kind of ratio of TCG enthusiasts from MTG tap to the left. I honestly don't think you people understand what tapped to the left looks like. I've played many tournaments in multiple regions, and online, going on 17-18 years now. In practically all cases everyone has always tapped to the right. It's what the cards have told us to do since Revised (which is when I started):
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/604

There have been a few odd scenarios where extremely unskilled and inexperienced players would come in and tap to the left--which yes, hurt my brain after playing for so many years. I don't mean that as an insult, that's just been my experience.

My OCD left-handed friend also brought up a good point that your cards are easier to read when tapped to the right (which may not matter in a digital world), because the letters are being read from top to bottom instead of bottom to top, which is weird for an English speaker/reader.

I never once looked at a MTG manual, and I was taught by old pros. They said it didn't matter, and everyone just tapped the way they wanted to.

As for reading, I have no issues there - I can read from almost any direction, including mirrored.

I don't see why this is so hard to believe - I am not from the US or EU though, so maybe my country was more relaxed with regional/national rules.

ossuary
09-03-2013, 02:46 PM
It's not really an "issue" per se, it's more a matter of needing SOMETHING to talk about, while we wait for the next Friday update. ;)

FeelNFine
09-05-2013, 12:03 AM
Gremio has a point though, there are a lot of people here saying they tap to the left, and I have never seen anyone tap the the left. Ever. Are the people saying tap to the left thinking they swing to the left with their thumb? Cause that would still be tapping to the right as the title still winds up on the right side.

blakegrandon
09-05-2013, 03:54 AM
It's not really an "issue" per se, it's more a matter of needing SOMETHING to talk about, while we wait for the next Friday update. ;)

Eh, I'd say it's an issue given how often tapping/swinging occurs in a TCG.

It would be like if Hex had a really ugly mouse cursor icon, sure some people might not care about what the interface looks like, but a lot of people would be turned off from the game.

It might be a sign of entitlement, but game preferences are what they are and we're "paying" customers. Has anyone ever gotten Cryptozoic to state why it taps to the left? Seems like a small issue but as a one time "pro" MTG player the only time I ever saw anyone tap to the left was in highly casual games and they were extremely new to the game.

The original MTG board layout doesn't really make sense because I feel like having the graveyard below the deck is disorganized and sloppy. Graveyard, Deck, Lands, creatures above. Life counter to the right

Xenavire
09-05-2013, 04:27 AM
Eh, I'd say it's an issue given how often tapping/swinging occurs in a TCG.

It would be like if Hex had a really ugly mouse cursor icon, sure some people might not care about what the interface looks like, but a lot of people would be turned off from the game.

It might be a sign of entitlement, but game preferences are what they are and we're "paying" customers. Has anyone ever gotten Cryptozoic to state why it taps to the left? Seems like a small issue but as a one time "pro" MTG player the only time I ever saw anyone tap to the left was in highly casual games and they were extremely new to the game.

The original MTG board layout doesn't really make sense because I feel like having the graveyard below the deck is disorganized and sloppy. Graveyard, Deck, Lands, creatures above. Life counter to the right

For me, the logical reason seems to be right in front of us. The placement of the opposing champ is to the left, and when you attack, all those little lines point left. It would look strange to have the cards tapping to the right... Away from the thing they are attacking.

It would be like a mass mooning, not an assault.

blakegrandon
09-05-2013, 04:33 AM
It would be like a mass mooning, not an assault.

You're just reinforcing my position that it should tap to the right...

ossuary
09-05-2013, 05:13 AM
Maybe Glorfenblart at least can tap to the right when you use his charge abilities...

Quasari
09-05-2013, 07:37 AM
I'm more comfortable tilting my head to the left to read side-ways, which means that cards tapped to the left are more legible than those tapped to the right.

Though cards tapped to the right by your opponent in this case would be more legible than those tapped to the left. You should know whats on your cards.

Aradon
09-05-2013, 09:50 AM
Though cards tapped to the right by your opponent in this case would be more legible than those tapped to the left. You should know whats on your cards.

Generally, my opponents know what's on my cards, too. If they don't, I turn it upside down and move it forward so they can read it. Also, if I have multiple cards on the field, reading can identify which is which, if the art is similar. I need to manipulate my cards more than my opponent, so my ability to identify cards by their text is more important than theirs.

Not that any of this is actually important :)

Xenavire
09-05-2013, 04:06 PM
Generally, my opponents know what's on my cards, too. If they don't, I turn it upside down and move it forward so they can read it. Also, if I have multiple cards on the field, reading can identify which is which, if the art is similar. I need to manipulate my cards more than my opponent, so my ability to identify cards by their text is more important than theirs.

Not that any of this is actually important :)

Not to mention that a player not checking a card the moment it is played is just silly. You should know what it does long before it taps - the only exception is when it interacts in a way you didn't expect (combo for example.)

Not counting players too green to be aware of these things, but even they tend to be curious.

GenghisMike
09-05-2013, 10:41 PM
It really doesn't bother me much, I hope at some point there is the option for people who are annoyed by the cards being in the "wrong" direction.

Xenavire
09-06-2013, 03:58 AM
You could turn your screen upside down! :3

But I dont have any reason to disagree. It is a reasonable request, it just requires CZE to use the idea. I will just take what they give us though - Hex is a new beast, it can do what the hell it wants.