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Gwaer
08-31-2013, 02:04 PM
That just came out in the PVP panel. Ready, go!

OrpheusOverdrive
08-31-2013, 02:05 PM
Wow, glad I chucked in my backer money.

Shrennan
08-31-2013, 02:07 PM
Kinda relieved, actually. I'm glad Crypto is taking its time because I really think Hex needs to be super polished upon release. Presentation can be really key.

hammer
08-31-2013, 02:16 PM
So we get three weeks of alpha and then they go dark for months until Beta? or alpha rolls for months till Beta? It will be harsh to taste hex for three weeks and then to be left like a junky waiting for the next hit?

Shadowelf
08-31-2013, 02:23 PM
So we get three weeks of alpha and then they go dark for months until Beta? or alpha rolls for months till Beta? It will be harsh to taste hex for three weeks and then to be left like a junky waiting for the next hit?

My guess is that we will end up playing Alpha till beta is available; since the Alpha client will be up and running there is no point of switching it back off. But if we are really getting 4x everything no complaints from me :)

Gwaer
08-31-2013, 02:24 PM
Alpha rolls on for months until beta. They're not talking about shutting alpha off. I'm actually glad about this, too. But the last month delay went poorly. Hopefully this one is better received.

ossuary
08-31-2013, 02:27 PM
I have no problem with this. That just means that they really are going to treat it like an alpha, as opposed to a sneak preview, and take our feedback from card interactions / bugs. Yeah it sucks a bit that it's a longer wait until we get the more full-featured client, but that suckiness is TOTALLY made up for by getting our hands on the client, and the implication that we'll be working with the devs to find problems (as opposed to just messing around with a test client, in a void).

Xtopher
08-31-2013, 02:27 PM
This isn't unexpected, but can anyone elaborate on what was said?

Gwaer
08-31-2013, 02:32 PM
Colin will post the full audio later. Also. They're planning on doing a rollout of features. At first it will just be all PVP cards and deck building and playing. Then eventually they'll roll out a feature like unlimited drafting, etc.

MugenMusou
08-31-2013, 02:32 PM
Wow. Despite the fact they raised 8x original goal, yet they are still delaying everything by a lot. Although I do agree, I want this game to come up with really polished state, and succeed in long run rather than short term but a bit surprised how much delay they would get from their original plan especially Crypto is not a small Indy company, and have experience. Also features they have promised from stretch goals do not seem that robust of design change i.e. not like they are implementing new 3D world, cut scene for everything. I guess you just cannot predict what really takes until the actual game is build even for experienced ones. :)

At least it provides more reason for people to buy slacker backers.

MoikPEI
08-31-2013, 02:34 PM
I'm fine with long Alpha. I have a list of like fifty things I want to test/verify just based on the spoiled cards. Ex, can the Kraken exhaust 0 tentacles to exhaust a 0 cost troop? Does Jadim use the cost before or after Journeyman Technician? Does having four Shrines of Prosperity add 4 charges to resources? If you Buccaneer a Warlock Inquisitior, does the cost go up by 1 or 2? Endless fun things like that to fiddle with and pick away at.

Xtopher
08-31-2013, 02:36 PM
Wow. Despite the fact they raised 8x original goal, yet they are still delaying everything by a lot.
When I saw how much they raised vs. how much they were looking for, my first thought was this game is not going to be meeting its launch dates. They can deliver so much more with that much money, it makes sense that it might have changed their design plans.

Shrennan
08-31-2013, 02:37 PM
Wow. Despite the fact they raised 8x original goal, yet they are still delaying everything by a lot. Although I do agree, I want this game to come up with really polished state, and succeed in long run rather than short term but a bit surprised how much delay they would get from their original plan especially Crypto is not a small Indy company, and have experience. Also features they have promised from stretch goals do not seem that robust of design change i.e. not like they are implementing new 3D world, cut scene for everything. I guess you just cannot predict what really takes until the actual game is build even for experienced ones. :)

At least it provides more reason for people to buy slacker backers.

To be fair, this is Crypto's first video game, as far as I am aware. It's an MMO at that, too!

MoikPEI
08-31-2013, 02:38 PM
Crypto has two iOS games out.
http://www.cryptozoic.com/games/penny-arcade-game-gamers-vs-evil-ios
http://www.cryptozoic.com/games/food-fight-ios

Yoss
08-31-2013, 02:40 PM
I am not surprised and am quite happy with this news. Delaying release is far better than a botched release. I hope they are considering hiring a couple more (qualified) helpers to help the push. I also hope they're working (and getting paid) double-time like Blizzard employees are expected to do during crunch time.

Mr.Funsocks
08-31-2013, 02:47 PM
I would definitely not categorize CZE as something other than "a small Indie developer." At last count, they had, what, 50 staff? Spread out among all their other projects? And they'd only published physical games or easy mobile games. Making a digital game is NOT cheap or easy with that small of a company. The money probably came in handy to hire some more programmers, but they still have to both find and integrate them. Programming the MMO features isn't easy... Even Blizzard, when it was making WoW, had a veteran video game design and programming team of 100+ people, almost all of whom were devoted to that one project.

Aradon
08-31-2013, 02:52 PM
Wow. Despite the fact they raised 8x original goal, yet they are still delaying everything by a lot.

More funding means the game can be in development longer, not that it can be pushed out quicker. As a result of all the stretch goals they added, they need more time to develop the game, and with the extra money, they have that time.

MoikPEI
08-31-2013, 02:52 PM
I also hope they're working (and getting paid) double-time like Blizzard employees are expected to do during crunch time.

wat O_o
I think there may be some unintended phrasing in there. I hope they're not working double-time as that could make burn-out and sloppy results from fatigue.

hex_colin
08-31-2013, 02:54 PM
So we get three weeks of alpha and then they go dark for months until Beta? or alpha rolls for months till Beta? It will be harsh to taste hex for three weeks and then to be left like a junky waiting for the next hit?

Alpha rolls until Beta with new features every week or two...

Shrennan
08-31-2013, 02:54 PM
Crypto has two iOS games out.
http://www.cryptozoic.com/games/penny-arcade-game-gamers-vs-evil-ios
http://www.cryptozoic.com/games/food-fight-ios

I stand corrected! Is Food Fight a digital game originally? I thought it was a tabletop game for some reason, but now I want to give Food Fight a try on iOS haha

Regardless, mobile games are still vastly inferior in terms of complexity in comparison to what CZE is attempting to accomplish with Hex.

Banquetto
08-31-2013, 02:56 PM
Wow. Despite the fact they raised 8x original goal, yet they are still delaying everything by a lot.

More likely because they raised 8x original goal, they are delaying everything by a lot. Trying to do 8x as much stuff with 8x as much money is always going to take a lot longer than originally planned. See The Mythical Man-Month (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month) for why.

I have to say, though, I'm very happy to hear that a sensible amount of time has now been allocated for Alpha. I was terrified that they were going to do a perfunctory Alpha, quickly roll into a Beta where they could no longer do a wipe (due to having handed out KS rewards), and then run into all manner of imbalances and exploits.

Facilier
08-31-2013, 03:21 PM
I am a little concerned that this could stretch out the first set rather thin.

With 2-3 months of Alpha, 2-3 months of Beta, then 3-4 months after release before the next set, that is potentially 10+ months with a single set.

Additionally it will make it a bit harder for people to appreciate the reality of Alpha testing where the features are being made available on preview, with the risk of people getting used to having access to all cards, unlimited drafts, etc over months, and potentially ending up feeling that features are being taken away from them when it ends.

Great to see a commitment to broader testing though, implies an openness to dialogue on game as it is currently.

zadies
08-31-2013, 03:34 PM
Saying you are going to spend ten months with a single set because you are volunteering to be a tester of the product is just crazy.

If you do not want the set to be played out for yourself then you should wait until the game does its soft launch during beta when they give out the ks rewards and there are no more wipes.

Participating in the alpha is a choice and I would rather test all of the systems for a year then get a subpar product because the testing was slapshod so as to limit peoples time with the set.

ossuary
08-31-2013, 03:36 PM
I'm not entirely sure they ever said for sure that set 2 wouldn't come out until after release. It may very well be that set 2 will release (and both sets will be available together) while we are still in testing, towards the later stages.

I can definitely see that there could be some room for misinterpretation where we are going to be testing with 4x of everything that will eventually be taken away, but that's just a matter of communication. It will start to become clear as we move from 4x of everything, test it all out, along to limited / draft testing (they said this was going to be the progression somewhere else - at GenCon, I think).

MugenMusou
08-31-2013, 04:09 PM
More likely because they raised 8x original goal, they are delaying everything by a lot. Trying to do 8x as much stuff with 8x as much money is always going to take a lot longer than originally planned. See The Mythical Man-Month (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month) for why.

I have to say, though, I'm very happy to hear that a sensible amount of time has now been allocated for Alpha. I was terrified that they were going to do a perfunctory Alpha, quickly roll into a Beta where they could no longer do a wipe (due to having handed out KS rewards), and then run into all manner of imbalances and exploits.

The things that stretch goals added seem to be nothing ground breaking in terms of design/development time when compared to how the game was originally planned. If anything, may be AIDA but I'm not sure if it's even a part of beta.

But I think you brought up a good point. If alpha is as promised and allows all card access, then it is definitely going to be a great experience of its own. Even for those paying $50 entry with slacker backer, they can think as buying a game that you can play several months with all card.

My honest opinion though is two reasons why this is happening.

1. Beta = Near completion production notion

Some thinks beta is right before the official release. So not having PvE, no draft, and whatever the other missing pieces, it may give false sense to some new comers who tries out the game and sees the game as so incomplete/limited. So perhaps they may still be on track for whatever they had originally planned, but rather decided to call alpha until nearly full blown game is available.

2. Slacker Backer

This change gives good incentive for more slacker backers. Hearthstone closed beta ticket was sold for $100-$250. HEX already have minimum of 17k alpha testers from kickstarter. So they certainly won't need any more tester for number wise. So take the advantage, and perhaps make some more development money by selling slacker backer which now is alpha entry ticket. :)

Niedar
08-31-2013, 04:17 PM
To be honest beta is release, its become increasingly common for companies to use the beta term as just a way cover their ass if anything bad happens. As far as I am concerned if you are collecting money from your customers and there will be no reset at the end of what you are calling beta then you have officially released your game. I don't really mind that you want to label it as beta to set expectations but I won't view it as a real beta.

So with saying that, I am glad that the alpha will be many months as in reality it is going to be more equivalent to a true beta for the game.

Lafoote
08-31-2013, 04:29 PM
If you want to do it right, you take as long as necessary. We waited more than a year from the projected release of WoW. Even still, that beta needed a lot of ironing before it was really ready to go. If you are looking forward to a game, you just don't complain about delays. Nobody wants the game out more than the developer, if they think it needs more time, it does. Whining to all your friends how badly you want to play it is perfectly acceptable though. I'll be doing so daily until alpha starts in a few weeks.

Xenavire
08-31-2013, 04:33 PM
I am actually very happy about this, it means they have decided our testing and input as a community is required to get the bugs out of alpha. It also means they have noted our comments on server loads, bugs, and all range of issues. A delayed beta does not mean a delayed release either - the more that can be ironed out during alpha, the less that needs to be redone in beta.

So we will probably get a client that lacks a lot of polish, and we need to hammer out numerous bugs, but really, that is just what everyone should be excited about. After Gencon hearing about the serveral bugs had me worried, and hearing this just let me relax completely.

Facilier
08-31-2013, 04:43 PM
HEX already have minimum of 17k alpha testers from kickstarter.

Likely quite a bit less than that: the Kickstarter rewards structure pushed a lot of people into multi-pledging, so the number of unique users should be quite a bit lower, which is a good thing in this case: 17k is a lot of load for an Alpha test.

Shadowelf
08-31-2013, 05:02 PM
Likely quite a bit less than that: the Kickstarter rewards structure pushed a lot of people into multi-pledging, so the number of unique users should be quite a bit lower, which is a good thing in this case: 17k is a lot of load for an Alpha test.

True but don't forget slacker backers; they had close to a thousand by the end of last month (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=2) and more will be coming everyday till alpha releases and beyond. So this number might prove to be real after all ;)

Prism
08-31-2013, 05:29 PM
Would be cool if there were tournaments in alpha to win special promotional cards given out once beta hits

Punk
08-31-2013, 06:01 PM
Take as long as you need.

I am fully distracted with Borderlands 2, Breaking Bad and Football/Basketball Practice right now.

Icepick
08-31-2013, 06:25 PM
I'm not surprised in the slightest, to be honest. My only real concern is that it means we're going to be stuck with just Set 1 for a looooooooong time, unless their plans to not release new sets until full launch have also changed.

hacky
08-31-2013, 06:39 PM
Crypto has two iOS games out.
http://www.cryptozoic.com/games/penny-arcade-game-gamers-vs-evil-ios
http://www.cryptozoic.com/games/food-fight-ios

Both of these are originally tabletop games developed by CZE, licensed to Playdek. Playdek did the development of the iOS versions from the original game.

firedancer27
08-31-2013, 07:26 PM
I am fine waiting for Beta. I would just play the version that was available at Gen-Con if thats all we could do so the fact that Alpha will be more developed than that is just icing on the cake. After playing the Gen-Con build I can understand why Beta is not projected to release for awhile, the game is fun but there were so many little details that weren't quite working right that it seems a little far fetched that Beta could have been within 2 months of Gen-Con. I'm just hoping Alpha does release by the end of September.

Chiany
08-31-2013, 07:48 PM
I am rather dissapointed by this.
Not just because Beta will be delayed, but because Cory has said several times that Beta will be a few weeks after Alpha, and that he doesn't wanted to delay the game alot after it raised alot of money on KS.

I am listening to the audio now, and haven't heard this mentioned, but I hope they at least explain why Beta will be delayed so much.

MoikPEI
08-31-2013, 08:03 PM
They may mean Open Beta as opposed to Closed Beta.
I always understood there to be a long projected gap between the end of alpha and opening the game up to anyone.

I thought it went
Alpha - We clog the PvP queue for a few weeks, causing frequent server load crashes.
Closed Beta - We run rampant over a fragile NPC ecosystems for a few months, causing frequent client side exception crashes.
Open Beta - A month or so of regular play to flush out any final showstoppers, causing frequent restarts and patches.
Game is Live - Everyone for themselves.

jimmywolf
08-31-2013, 08:09 PM
i don't mind a delay long it with in reason, FF14 was just released an it been having lot log in issues different game but same concept.

i trust they want this too be a great success, so good things take time. the more you try an rush it more likely something will go wrong.

Maphalux
08-31-2013, 09:54 PM
So beta not at end of September? Well that's a shame but it means they will have more time to make the game awesome. But we get to stay in alpha until beta arrives? That is excellent news! Thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to listen in.

Mokog
08-31-2013, 10:17 PM
Most of my feelings have been expressed by the previous posters. I do not like a beta delay but I will say this they have to kick the polish up a notch for the digital experience. Hearthstone is almost sex to play. It is intuitive and a veteran tcg player picks up the game quickly. Hex is a much more complex game than hearthstone but it must feel just as sexy if not more to ease the player into that complexity.

In the Hex vault audio an audience member asks about Cory's thoughts on the topic of Hearthstone. He said the right thing, Nope. This lengthening of alpha shows their seriousness and lack of hubris. They know what's going on in their market.

Next question is how many months? 2? or maybe 4? There is not going to be an NDA from what I have seen. We have a closed recordable alpha and all pvp cards unlocked. I get that for MONTHS! We can look on the down side but I like the up side. I have months of having every card in the game to wash the scrub off and learn to be 1337 at hex. I can then with this knowledge tailor my beta experience forward to remake my favorite decks first.

Now I just have to wait a few weeks till alpha.

Dralon
08-31-2013, 10:35 PM
I am on the side of this being good news as well...and no, not just because I am a backer. In today's reality, beta releases are very closed to finished products. Buggy, yes, not all systems implemented, yes...but close. They need to be in a state where a significant portion of the PVE content is in and ready for testing at the start of beta IMO. It is my impression that currently it is a pvp only client they have that will be ready for alpha, and alpha testers can push it, and test it while they are rolling out the pve features a bit at a time, from dungeons, keeps, guild features, etc. Once Beta hits and people are spending real money on card that will not be wiped, those beta testers will and should expect a large amount of the finished product to be available...buggy,yes, not totally complete, yes...but available. If that takes 2-3-4 months or more to make it happen, that's fine. CZE has to weigh a waining of excitement and interest from a long delay to beta vs the bad press that would come out from a haphazard beta roll out because Cory once said "a 3 week alpha".

iscariotrex
08-31-2013, 10:39 PM
I have done the kickstarter thing before and honestly I was amazed at their initial estimates on release. I backed Torment and am now waiting til next Christmas for that. A few months is nothing... but oh wait, I won't be waiting for Hex, I'll be playing the shit out of it for months until it releases!! 4 of everything to really sit down and brew with!! The possibility of tons of free drafting!! I'm sorry, but I missed all the bad news.

People are invested and I respect your passion. Try to remember you didn't buy a game; you backed a vision. All the logistics and stuff I haven't had any experience with/couldn't do are being handled by brilliant people who have my full confidence.

KiraForce
08-31-2013, 11:02 PM
So beta not at end of September? Well that's a shame but it means they will have more time to make the game awesome. But we get to stay in alpha until beta arrives? That is excellent news! Thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to listen in.

Beta was never at the end of September. Alpha was and still is though. It's just that Alpha will last way longer than we originally thought.

butttoots
08-31-2013, 11:10 PM
Beta was never at the end of September. Alpha was and still is though. It's just that Alpha will last way longer than we originally thought.

Thats completely false. Beta was quoted for September during the entire Kickstarter.

majin
08-31-2013, 11:13 PM
i am a very impatient person but i don't mind beta being delayed as long as we can play with the alpha version at the end of september with new features rolling in every week or two

i agree that this is a very good move for CZE as launching a game as big as this (as we all expect this to be the biggest dTCG for years to come) really needs extensive alpha

it's not a mmo or tcg but take a look at the latest sim city, all hype and full of bugs (worst thing i purchased recently). the 'beta' was rushed so when the game rolled out, it was almost unplayable and from what i heard, there are still a lot of bugs and it was released early this year

delaying a game is something that gamer's really hate to hear (i am one of them) but as long as they keep the communication open on what's happening, i don't mind the delay as I know how hard it is to code things and fix bugs and make sure your server is capable to handle the load (and i am just working on web sites, how much more on games like this).

i do like the idea of alpha tourneys or achievement to give us something once beta rolls in. like if you won 10 tourneys or play 100 pvp games, create and play 10 different decks to really help test the system. it's not something i require but just an icing to be able to play alpha will all the cards available to us

i haven't done any theory crafting and won't do it until all the card info are available and that's alpha. so even if there will be a wipe and even if alpha takes X months. i will be happy to play and test it and i know i will have a list of cards and decks that i will collect once the 'no wipe' stage rolls in during beta

3 to 4 more weeks...

majin
08-31-2013, 11:14 PM
Thats completely false. Beta was quoted for September during the entire Kickstarter.es·ti·mate
/ˈestəˌmāt/


Verb


Roughly calculate or judge the value, number, quantity, or extent of.









Noun


An approximate calculation or judgment of the value, number, quantity, or extent of something.









Synonyms


verb.
appraise - evaluate - value - assess - rate - calculate




noun.
estimation - appraisal - valuation - evaluation - rating

KiraForce
08-31-2013, 11:14 PM
Thats completely false. Beta was quoted for September during the entire Kickstarter.

From what I can remember (forgive me if I am wrong, I do have a just terrible memory) that was all strictly conjecture, nothing solid.

Grumph
08-31-2013, 11:24 PM
Thats completely false. Beta was quoted for September during the entire Kickstarter.

As any good MMO developer does, they used language like, "We are aiming for a September Beta" which means they can do beta in September, or they can do it next March. It's their baby, they'll have it when its due

Maphalux
08-31-2013, 11:28 PM
That post was a derp on my part, Kira. We've already known for some time that beta would not be in September. It would be alpha. What I meant was end of October.

Grumph
08-31-2013, 11:37 PM
getting into alpha in September, thats at most 4 weeks away. YOU WILL HAVE FUN. Trust me, the gencon edition was incredibly fun, I simply can't believe they will be handing over the whole set to us to actually deck build. This in itself will make online TCG history as probably the most fun period for a game, everyone will be on absolute even ground and it will be amazing. Could you give all of us tool that will make us better at drafting please? Oh hello, unlimited drafts, you just gave everyone who has never played a draft a major advantage, thanks!

You might think this game is a digital MTG clone, this game blows MTG out of the water. You will be surprised, as I was. The mechanics that are in this game are quite simply amazing, everything from the subtle resource changes to the crazy awesome new mechanics. I saw people in another post talking about how the card Shards of Fate is just another land fetch card, yet they don't realize how strong getting the THRESHOLD you need at the right time can be. It can potentially change the game with one card, in MTG getting out that one plain you have been waiting on could be too little too late, in hex you could potentially play your entire hand due to waiting on that one diamond threshold and completely catch your opponent off guard. Don't even get me started on how awesome inspiration is, it is a game changer


are fanboi's still a thing? i think i just became one with this post

Gwaer
09-01-2013, 12:24 AM
I'd temper your expectations of alpha to mid October. I've been hanging out with Ben, Chris, and Cory. All I can say is they are so incredibly passionate about this that they are putting literally everything they have into it. I just don't expect that it will pass muster for them before that.

Then if they launch on time it's a pleasant surprise, and if it's slightly delayed you can be prepared. In that same line of reason, I usually add 3 years to any blizzard release estimate.

lucedes
09-01-2013, 12:24 AM
they changed their terminology.

the alpha is now basically where the closed beta was.

the beta they refer to is open beta, right?

so really what happened is we get to play in september, then it opens a couple months later after rolling out all the features, exactly like the original beta plans? only we get 4x cards and free drafts or whatever. nothing substantial changed from my expectations.

Karstaag
09-01-2013, 01:08 AM
Well, I am not quite happy with it, but I think it is necessary for game to be good and popular. They are devs and they know what to do. If they say that the game is not ready then it is not. And since everybody of us wants it to be popular so there would be a lot of people to play with, then I guess nobody cann“t really say anything against delay.
And it could be a good way how to let Hearthstone boom of few last weeks flow away.

I am really looking forward to play this game. I really do. And by that i mean the game that CZE wants it to be. Not some halfway finished product which will rush away with a lots of bugs, unfinished features etc... And as was said, beta is taken as a release these days and if done right, it can get hex some good publicity.

Shadowelf
09-01-2013, 02:10 AM
For myself i'm happy that Cory stayed true to his word 'you only get one chance for a first impression' . The only thing i can say is work hard guys, take your time, make it the best :)

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-01-2013, 02:42 AM
I'd temper your expectations of alpha to mid October. I've been hanging out with Ben, Chris, and Cory. All I can say is they are so incredibly passionate about this that they are putting literally everything they have into it. I just don't expect that it will pass muster for them before that.

Then if they launch on time it's a pleasant surprise, and if it's slightly delayed you can be prepared. In that same line of reason, I usually add 3 years to any blizzard release estimate.
Just gonna give this the ol' QFT. The alpha is going to be their first chance to show off a non-demo version of their game, and they want to get it right. They want to make it so that the people who aren't already into the game have their socks blown off, and they want it to be polished so that anyone streaming it to audiences can demonstrate just why we believe it has so much potential.

If it's a few weeks or so later than September, try not to fret too much. Just remember what lies at the end of that waiting.

Xenavire
09-01-2013, 03:21 AM
Regardless of any complaints, they are still doing what they can to start delivering the KS rewards in the time frame they had estimated. Sure, they had to juggle things around, but they are aiming for September, and that is the month they estimated the first possible delivery date on the rewards.

I think it is admirable, and I hope it isn't foolish, but I trust them. If it gets delayed, I know there is a good reason.

Also, wake me when September ends (or alpha starts!)

Gridian
09-01-2013, 03:42 AM
I'm cool. We all will be playing, no matter if it's called Alpha, Beta, Gamma or Iota (aside of Omega and Kappa those are about all the greek letters I know the names of xD).
Also, anyone who wishes to play can do so by becoming a Slacker Backer. Compared to what the Slackers get that too is a good deal for everyone involved.

Sure, in the beginning things are going to crash and not work frequently - but whenever a greek letter is attached to the deal that is to be expected. Yes, we'll be playing with the first set for an unusually long time, but I personally prefer that to waiting for release - don't you?

Exciting times are coming - this will be loads of fun! :D

LNQ
09-01-2013, 03:58 AM
Gridian, I'm sure you know at least Delta and Sigma and Pi as well.

bofedy
09-01-2013, 04:54 AM
This is good we dont want a long beta because when new people come in and get beaten badly as all KS and slakers have the cards they want people will think that its a money grabing game as its new yet people have what seems like OP cards/decks so a long alpha is beter than a long beta :D

Malicus
09-01-2013, 06:37 AM
"_+ this could get expensive. I accidentally started playing MtG:O because I watched some draft vids and it looked fun and now am slightly addicted.

Oh well it will come when it comes, I feel confident they will deliver and delays are par for the course on any game development, people argue that they should account for the delays with their estimates but that is just as likely to be inaccurate.

Shadowelf
09-01-2013, 06:45 AM
Regardless of any complaints, they are still doing what they can to start delivering the KS rewards in the time frame they had estimated. Sure, they had to juggle things around, but they are aiming for September, and that is the month they estimated the first possible delivery date on the rewards.

I think it is admirable, and I hope it isn't foolish, but I trust them. If it gets delayed, I know there is a good reason.

Also, wake me when September ends (or alpha starts!)

They were completely off Xen; KS rewards were to be delivered at Beta (september), and beta is delayed till after new year. But that's ok as i said earlier; we got to at least play the game, with 4x every card, test and have tremendous amounts of fun. Plus i wouldn't want the game to be rushed and appear lacking to the masses; let them take their time if it's the best for the game

Zomnivore
09-01-2013, 09:01 AM
Just because you spent 8x more doesn't mean that money can turn into 8x the speed on an iterative process. Its not an efficient system.

Still, I agree in total its not a bad thing that they've had to delay, although my bias is that I like the more closed off alpha time we get, and that makes me a happy pathetic child. Still its probably long term healthier for the game state to launch at a high rate of polish then to launch at a low state and have people fall off, retention is a very very important factor for a game of this genre and style. F2p aspects also create other systems of retention problems but w/e you're going to have to deal with those eventually and even if hex fails it'll be another light into the dark on a very important issue for future games.

butttoots
09-01-2013, 10:01 AM
es·ti·mate
/ˈestəˌmāt/


Verb


Roughly calculate or judge the value, number, quantity, or extent of.









Noun


An approximate calculation or judgment of the value, number, quantity, or extent of something.









Synonyms


verb.
appraise - evaluate - value - assess - rate - calculate




noun.
estimation - appraisal - valuation - evaluation - rating







So when Alpha misses September can I complain then? Or is everything that Crypto says just an estimate so that they're never wrong?

Xtopher
09-01-2013, 10:18 AM
So when Alpha misses September can I complain then? Or is everything that Crypto says just an estimate so that they're never wrong?

You're allowed to complain whenever you want. If CZE knew, at the time of the KS promotion, that their launch goal was improbable then complaints are justified. However, it's so early in my relationship with them that I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Also, luckily, it seems that the naļve investors are in the minority.

Personally, I fully expected alpha and beta to be delayed when I saw how much money they brought in from KS. Unfortunately, a lot of people on the forums have been citing alpha lasting 3 weeks as if it's the Word of God. When it comes up, I've tried to point out to people that when CZE (or any company) says they "hope" or "plan" something is going to happen, that's the best case scenario and probably isn't going to happen.

Really, what's the point in being upset? If you're really that unhappy, ask for your KS money back. It wouldn't surprise me if they refunded it to you. Griping about it here isn't going to make CZE work faster.

Niedar
09-01-2013, 10:25 AM
Extended alpha works out best for me because I have never played mtg and only watched people play it on twitch. Now I get a few months of having all cards in set 1 and probably being able to draft as much as I want for free so I can develop some sort of skill before I have to start paying, besides my initial investment on kickstarter.

Shrennan
09-01-2013, 10:30 AM
So when Alpha misses September can I complain then? Or is everything that Crypto says just an estimate so that they're never wrong?

The problem with popular Kickstarters is that when goals are met and far exceeded that will bring with it inevitable problems (albeit good problems to have). CZE isn't even delaying things all that much so far - Valve? Blizzard? Those companies are infamous for their delays. Backers are still able to play alpha, which should be enough to satisfy the majority of people until beta and then release.

Kroan
09-01-2013, 10:33 AM
Can somebody quote cory or link to the actual time where it was said? :)

Gwaer
09-01-2013, 10:38 AM
*dblpost*

Gwaer
09-01-2013, 10:38 AM
It's in the audio of the PVP panel linked in the OP.

Kroan
09-01-2013, 10:45 AM
It's in the audio of the PVP panel linked in the OP.

There is no link in the OP :( (and time mark would be nice!)

Nvm; this is the link:
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/31/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pvp-design-panel/#prettyPhoto

hammer
09-01-2013, 10:51 AM
There is no link in the OP :( (and time mark would be nice!)

Nvm; this is the link:
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/31/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pvp-design-panel/#prettyPhoto

http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/31/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pvp-design-panel/

Start listing at 35:55 ;)

MoikPEI
09-01-2013, 10:58 AM
Yeah, the question was for "When does beta open?"
Cory says Alpha end of September then new features every week for several months until they feel safe calling it a beta.
I take that to mean we'll be seeing PvE and Raids, and all that other fun stuff in that 'several month' span.

Mr.Funsocks
09-01-2013, 11:20 AM
Yeah, the question was for "When does beta open?"
Cory says Alpha end of September then new features every week for several months until they feel safe calling it a beta.
I take that to mean we'll be seeing PvE and Raids, and all that other fun stuff in that 'several month' span.

I wouldn't take that out of it. I'd take it to mean we'll see friends lists, drafts tourneys, guilds/teams, ladder/ranked PvP, storefront, and maybe arena PvE in that time. Maybe a dungeon or two, or a raid or two, to bugtest the basic format. The full PvE rollout is so not going to happen while the game is only playable by backers.

Mahes
09-01-2013, 11:29 AM
I think the build up for the second set coming out will be as big as the release of the game, given how long everyone will have to play the first set. It will be fun testing out the game, but after a while there will only be so many kinds of decks that can be played. I imagine I will be testing off and on during alpha. Mainly I want an opportunity to build decks that are not competitive, but find a way to break the system. Endless resources/creatures are always a fun mechanic to try and find. How large can a creature really get? When playing the physical game a player can always just say "Infinite" and go from there. In this version, that is not the case.

I really had not cared all that much for the PvE aspect, but the long beta/alpha testing phase might get me to try them out.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-01-2013, 11:53 AM
I'm hoping the PVE will have options for 3-4 man raids vs large bosses. Each deck cooperating and buffing your allies.

MoikPEI
09-01-2013, 11:55 AM
The full PvE rollout is so not going to happen while the game is only playable by backers.
I think that's what the beta definition in the Kickstarter was; full PvE.
Anyone have a quote?

Mr.Funsocks
09-01-2013, 12:02 PM
I think that's what the beta definition in the Kickstarter was; full PvE.
Anyone have a quote?

Nerp, PvE was always promised for "sometime in beta", which I took to mean "right before/as it goes open beta." They may be changing definitions slightly, such that "beta" will be more "soft launch" and will have most of PvE, but I doubt they would publish ALL of their story months before most players have access. Think about it: If they publish all the PvE story in a no-wipe closed beta, all the people in that beta will be done with that content and awaiting the next batch by the time it opens, but all the new people will be at a hideous disadvantage, and they're unlikely to do the next round of story updates while most players are seeing the first round for the first time.

poizonous
09-01-2013, 12:09 PM
This delay is actually not bad. Unlike the last delay which pushed Alpha back, this delay just gives us a lot extra time with all the cards. And also since I am really not looking forward to PvE too much Beta can take as long as it wants. But give us that Alpha already lol.

MoikPEI
09-01-2013, 12:10 PM
Oh, when I say 'full PvE' I mean feature-complete, not content-complete.

Xscape
09-01-2013, 12:35 PM
The word beta is very often mentioned on there forums... I don't understand whats the big fuss around it, since most of the players interested in the game have already pledged/donated into alpha.

I just hope this game succeeds and bigger waves of players will join in eventualy... Quality titles that are b2p, and f2p are strugling to keep the player count after beta/launch....

Xenavire
09-01-2013, 01:30 PM
The word beta is very often mentioned on there forums... I don't understand whats the big fuss around it, since most of the players interested in the game have already pledged/donated into alpha.

I just hope this game succeeds and bigger waves of players will join in eventualy... Quality titles that are b2p, and f2p are strugling to keep the player count after beta/launch....

KS rewards are delivered (by and large) somewhere in Beta. This ranges from boosters to AA to sleeves, etc. However, playing the game is far more important to a large number of us, and the rewards are something we can wait for.

Punk
09-01-2013, 02:00 PM
In Soviet Russia, game beta-tests you!

Mindless
09-01-2013, 03:45 PM
Well... I'm not very happy about this but I guess that is me. This might mean that PVE will take longer (and I wanted PVE most). Also I don't understand people thinking there is draft at alpha launch. That have never been promised? They say they are gonna roll out features so probably drafts will be one of those things. I expect early alpha will be more or less friendly duels (maybe some form of quickmatch?). Draft was my second prio after pve so if it is there from the start that is something to be happy about but the though of not be able to rare draft (yes I wanted to do that from time to time) and that picks won't matter for me or any other in the long run is saddening (I mean there are supposed to be these times that a legendary that you cannot use for your draft deck but you really wants pop up and you have to make a choice). I still don't like wipes but whatever.

I don't mean to lower peoples morale nor disrespect cryptozoic but not everyone have to feel good about this. A delay is often sad, in gaming, in construction, science etc.

Rieper
09-01-2013, 03:51 PM
I think reason people expect draft to be there, is because the way crypto always talked about draft and some earlier articles actually made it sound like draft is already up and running. (Mostly since that balance needed for this is big, and hex is kinda hard to play with physical mock ups)

Shadowelf
09-01-2013, 04:05 PM
I think that's what the beta definition in the Kickstarter was; full PvE.
Anyone have a quote?

Cory actually said there will be a piece of pve in beta http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 check 1:34:35




You're allowed to complain whenever you want. If CZE knew, at the time of the KS promotion, that their launch goal was improbable then complaints are justified. However, it's so early in my relationship with them that I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Also, luckily, it seems that the naļve investors are in the minority.


They knew even during the KS; check update #11 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=7



Personally, I fully expected alpha and beta to be delayed when I saw how much money they brought in from KS. Unfortunately, a lot of people on the forums have been citing alpha lasting 3 weeks as if it's the Word of God. When it comes up, I've tried to point out to people that when CZE (or any company) says they "hope" or "plan" something is going to happen, that's the best case scenario and probably isn't going to happen.


Well they seemed pretty certain to me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 0:44:20
I imagine the “alpha” will be several weeks long. We want to balance “what is polished enough” to show you, with giving you a bit of time in HEX before anyone else. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=4 update #25

Xtopher
09-01-2013, 04:14 PM
To me words and phrases like "imagine", "several", "bit of time" are weasel words. I'm just naturally skeptical, though. I was hopeful everything would turn out to be their best case scenario, but it's not, and I'm not overly disappointed (yet).

Shadowelf
09-01-2013, 04:22 PM
To me words and phrases like "imagine", "several", "bit of time" are weasel words. I'm just naturally skeptical, though. I was hopeful everything would turn out to be their best case scenario, but it's not, and I'm not overly disappointed (yet).

Yeap same here , no dissapointment. We get to play a version of the game after all, with 4x card, playtest and have fun :)

zadies
09-01-2013, 04:45 PM
Using such words would indicate uncertainty and trying to hold onto a date from a one off comment when everything else had been much more gauge both before and after it is just wishful thinking on your part.

DreamPuppet
09-01-2013, 05:54 PM
Wow, some people still get their panties in a bunch when a game gets pushed back in 2013? Every game with the MMO acronym in the genre name in the last 10+ years has been pushed back by sometimes years. I'd rather have quality over a quick release that will crash every 5 minutes when i've paid $5 to get in a draft.

ossuary
09-01-2013, 08:19 PM
Well that's what happens when people who aren't familiar with design and development start seeing behind the curtain for the first time. It doesn't help that the younger generations have a sense of entitlement that can't by law be spanked out of them anymore, either. ;)

Xtopher
09-01-2013, 10:29 PM
I think I've only seen one poster in this thread that was over the top in disappointment. That's really excellent, actually, spankings or not. :)

The_Wine_Gnat
09-01-2013, 11:08 PM
disappointment... spankings or not. :)

Are the spankings delayed too?

Shadowelf
09-02-2013, 12:01 AM
Can somebody quote cory or link to the actual time where it was said? :)

Here is a complete info breakdown with time markers. Also posted at the FAQ (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26987)


TheHexVault.com: Dragoncon 2013 - HexTCG PVP Design Panel (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/31/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pvp-design-panel/)

0:00:50 No 3D World
0:01:45 AIDA
0:05:35 Sets Balanced Around Draft
0:12:38 Set1
0:24:55 Shard of Fate
0:28:40 Gem Socketing
0:31:15 Transformation
0:36:05 Alpha end of September
0:36:10 4x every card in Alpha
0:36:32 Beta Several Months After Alpha
0:39:05 Policy/Plans of Banning/Nerfing
0:41:15 Emulating Print Sheets
0:42:00 Boxes-RNG
0:43:50 Differences With MTG (Resource System)
0:48:00 Tournaments (Hobby Retailers)
0:55:50 Security
0:58:35 Tablets

Also slides, lots of spoiled cards and in addition very important info like Alpha access will be granted in phases

Xtopher
09-02-2013, 12:43 AM
In phases by KS tier?

Soul-of-Void
09-02-2013, 12:49 AM
Dont care much for delayed Beta we still get Alfa and got to play and test Hex, thats what is most imortant, cant wait this to happen .

Kroan
09-02-2013, 12:55 AM
Thanks shadowelf :)

Shadowelf
09-02-2013, 01:34 AM
In phases by KS tier?

Also, Alpha access will be granted in phases. However, there won’t be an appreciable time difference (no more than a couple of days) between the different phases. They’re still working out the details on who gets slightly earlier access – some combination of level of Kickstarter tier and when you made your pledge most likely. (source http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/31/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pvp-design-panel/)

Xenavire
09-02-2013, 03:33 AM
Not at all surprised by gated access to Alpha, it seemed fairly inevitable.

Sadly I am likely to get in days ahead of my friends, and days after the bulk of forum-goers. Just in that perfectly torturous limbo - but oh well, just happy they are dedicated to getting it done quickly.

But at times like this I wish I had both more money, and my pay check had arrived earlier.

So, going to assume everyone over GK should be in day 1, GK not far behind, then all of the Pro (since it sold out early), then DC/Collector/Guild master. Then early bird kings/kings, and going down until slacker backer as last.

hex_colin
09-02-2013, 09:52 AM
Not at all surprised by gated access to Alpha, it seemed fairly inevitable.

Sadly I am likely to get in days ahead of my friends, and days after the bulk of forum-goers. Just in that perfectly torturous limbo - but oh well, just happy they are dedicated to getting it done quickly.

But at times like this I wish I had both more money, and my pay check had arrived earlier.

So, going to assume everyone over GK should be in day 1, GK not far behind, then all of the Pro (since it sold out early), then DC/Collector/Guild master. Then early bird kings/kings, and going down until slacker backer as last.

To clarify, Cory's comments sounded like it wouldn't be particularly granular - 2, maybe 3, waves of invites. And that there wouldn't be a great deal of time between waves, i.e. everyone would have their promised Alpha access within a couple of days. Of course, I'm sure all of that is subject to change, and is likely dependent on how well the first wave of invites go.

the_artic_one
09-02-2013, 01:24 PM
Makes sense, better than everyone logging in at once on day 1 and crashing the servers so no one can play.

Shadowelf
09-02-2013, 01:56 PM
Makes sense, better than everyone logging in at once on day 1 and crashing the servers so no one can play.

Yep definately; Cory doesn't want a book like 'Logging and back again-A devs tale' written about him. :)