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View Full Version : What do you guys think about putting digital cards into a 'physical' space?



Zomnivore
09-02-2013, 09:12 AM
I played a game a while back called Desperate Gods and I thought the experience of immersion was weird and sort of comforting.

It took away the 'cold' ui you're usually presented in a digital game and turned it into a format for social expression, and it really did something to 'make' that experience something warm and more social.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WD0gMu0LDU

Would a Ui of this sort appeal to anyone besides me? Obviously you'd have to do something seriously cool to get the coding for the hard lined rules for the cards to work, but just as an experience, it has a lot of appeal to me.

I feel like if we're going to be beholden to 'cards' as a concept even if they do interesting cool digital things...well this really makes the physical aspects of cards fun without any of the downsides as far as I'm concerned.

Something about the physical act of putting a card on the table is enjoyable, and if you remember Amnesia the pulling of doors and the placing of things, created a nuanced amount of immersion and emotional connection to the world that I think is really special and really worth exploration.

MoikPEI
09-02-2013, 09:46 AM
>allow new players to undo moves they don't understand
I really like that.

>shot of a "flipped table".
I lol'd.

I'm very impressed that this game out of a one-week game jam.

>open source on GitHub
These guys are awesome.

MercuryMonkey
09-02-2013, 09:55 AM
The interface in that video is pretty cool, but for me personally I prefer to limit the real world board/card game aspects in digital games. I want to be immersed in the game world not be immersed in a simulation of sitting around a table.

For the game itself, a game may require a random number or a random selection. Rolling dice and drawing cards are there to do these things but if a digital game is doing this automatically I don't have any need to see it represented in terms of a table top game. Same thing for organizing, placing and sorting cards and game pieces.

I would like to see it taken even further in the other direction where we don't think of it in terms of decks and cards but the actual objects and entities they represent in the fantasy world. This is a difficult gap to jump as far as a strategic game goes because to play the game information representation is more important than immersion when making decisions within the game. Regarding the satisfaction of physically placing a card on the table I think a digital game can do things with audio and visual effects that can create effects that are even more satisfying than they real world physical counterparts.

Zomnivore
09-02-2013, 11:38 AM
I think the illusion of being in a physical place might have an effect on emotional responses to competition.

It'd be an interesting thing to study from a cognitive science aspect, I bet.

If people acted out in more visceral card/table flipping ways I wonder if they'd be less likely to curse, as they'd have an outlet for that frustration that would preclude speech.

If they acted out that way, if the people they were acting out towards...would be less emotionally invested and less liable to take bad things to heart.

Turning the spectrum of frustration into a visual format could allow for a lot less internalization of that person's negative behavior.

Usually people turn toward exploiting systems to show their fury and outrage and all that, if there were such an easy system to show that expression, I wonder if they'd do more/less system/game-wide negative behavior.

Lunarath
09-02-2013, 12:20 PM
I highly prefer having this limited UI system, forcing you through your turns. The whole point of HEX to me is that it's digital only

Zomnivore
09-02-2013, 02:16 PM
I think you can have both the enforced rule structure that makes computing rules easy, and have that physics based experience.

Vegetable
09-02-2013, 08:50 PM
It's definitely interesting, Hearthstone incorporates some of those elements (making you plop your cards down, at least) and I do think it would be interesting for immersion, but I think with a game like Hex the rules need to be automated and enforced to a degree that the game actually works and you can trust players to follow the rules... Maybe a more "open" gamemode would be interesting for people who want to make their own rulesets or gametypes, where players can manually adjust or do or undo things outside the traditional game rules.

funktion
09-02-2013, 08:56 PM
I really do like what he's talking about at the 1:00 mark regarding "the rules being a social contract" that's really hard to replicate in a digital space. In my mind it's one of the greatest things about TCG's, but they kinda found a way to do it there.

keldrin
09-03-2013, 03:19 AM
It's a interesting concept. And might be cool for casual play.
I know some chess games in casual mode, will allow a opponent to request to undo a mode, and the opponent can agree or refuse.
That might be a nice feature for casual play when teaching a new player. Or even when doing friendly play testing of decks.

Saying this, I'm reminded of a chess game, I made a move, where it left my queen hanging, and I had calculated if my opponent took my queen, My rook could force a mate. I made the move, then noticed a in between move, that would allow him to block my threat, and leave me in a forced position where he would get my queen. So, I requested a undo move. He refused, then took my queen. Right after he did it, he saw the threat and requested a undo.... Needless to say, I refused, and went for mate. Since he refused my undo, I didn't feel obligated to let him undo and win. Ahhh... those 5am tangents....

Zomnivore
09-03-2013, 08:06 AM
I really do like what he's talking about at the 1:00 mark regarding "the rules being a social contract" that's really hard to replicate in a digital space.

If the audio/ complaints I heard from Hex designers having trouble prototyping card interactions, wasn't bs chagrin. It seems like this almost analogue system would be fairly convenient for testing purposes if nothing else.


I highly prefer having this limited UI system, forcing you through your turns. The whole point of HEX to me is that it's digital only

I think there's gotta be a way to have some rule enforcement and automation, but there's literally no way that you couldn't some how have both.


It's a interesting concept. And might be cool for casual play.


I think it would be especially fun in a casual format, but I think if they could get some form of rule enforcement automation...that you'd have a pretty compelling ui for either use case.

Facilier
09-03-2013, 04:29 PM
I play card games role playing a mage summoning minions and what not, where my will and the winds of fate bring about the demise of my opponents.

Role playing a dude sitting down to role play a mage summoning minions seems to be on a Tropic Thunder level of unnnecessary.

Zomnivore
09-03-2013, 07:41 PM
Role playing a dude sitting down to role play a mage summoning minions seems to be on a Tropic Thunder level of unnnecessary.

Role playing in general you could make a similar claim. If you're going to craft story why not write? If you're going to adopt a role, why not act?

Its a similar argument, in the fact that I don't give it much credit.

If you think that using keys and an interface don't ruin your immersion in terms of your ability to role play why would using this one additional interface do any different? You still have to deal with information input with the generic system.

Its simply the framework for your own personal narrative, this one being a bit more physical in its framing.

God forbid you role play a table top game and roll dice! As though the physical labor itself would ruin your fun!

FeelNFine
09-04-2013, 11:52 PM
It could ruin mine, Zomnivore. Okay, detract is a better word. The astetic in the video is nice, but I don't think it's for hex. Particularly because its not supposed to be just a card game, they are embracing the fact that its digital and will never be physically printed. It reminds me of Cardhuters, and it worked for them because they were roleplaying a role playing game. There's no reason to put that extra layer of separation between players and the world of hex. I'm one of those people who appreciate immersion, and one of the best ways for a hex to do that is to focus on the art and the theme, not on the 'cardyness'

Zomnivore
09-05-2013, 08:24 AM
It could ruin mine, Zomnivore. Okay, detract is a better word. The astetic in the video is nice, but I don't think it's for hex. Particularly because its not supposed to be just a card game, they are embracing the fact that its digital and will never be physically printed. It reminds me of Cardhuters, and it worked for them because they were roleplaying a role playing game. There's no reason to put that extra layer of separation between players and the world of hex. I'm one of those people who appreciate immersion, and one of the best ways for a hex to do that is to focus on the art and the theme, not on the 'cardyness'

To be honest I don't think you have any valid argument at all.

I don't think immersion is even a concept you can use to describe what you're trying to say. You're still playing cards. You're still shuffling and inundated with card mechanics.

If you can role play anything in a card game its through mental buggery and if moving cards around is going to stop you from doing that, then I think its hilarious that you draw the line where you have.

In a card game. Moving cards is what breaks your immersion?

You act as though you've done this before? That you're a regular card playing rping sonnofagun and yet I don't understand....did you not have to use those interfaces? Did you not have to actually shuffle cards in real life if thats another place you've done it?

Why is it a degree of separation at all if you're a card playing wizard as you say?

Trol?

You can argue anything down if you give unfair credence to another thing that it might marginalize slightly more than it used to.

In that regard I don't even think your argument holds up. You're having an experience that turns it more into a physical card playing experience and yet you're saying that it's going to take you out of role playing a card game wizard.

I don't get it, and I'm not going to struggle to debunk the complete inadequacy of the argument.

FeelNFine
09-05-2013, 02:06 PM
I'm sorry, I was being facetious and making fun of your over exaggeration, while trying to point out he had a point. Immersion is the correct word to use here as it's what most games strive for. I'm not saying that theres a line where my mind goes 'well darn, I no longer want to have any connection to this on any level' I'm saying the less levels of separation the better.

The reason I brought up Card Hunters was because that kind of UI wasn't a level of separation because it directly applied to the point of the game.

Again, not saying that kind of interface would 'ruin' immersion, it would just add a layer of separation, because instead of being keys or cards between the player and the fantasy, its keys AND cards. Essentially the creative focus shifts from the fantasy, to the card game. This is just a psychological observation.

I understand that you don't get it, but there are nicer ways to ask for an explanation.

Zomnivore
09-05-2013, 03:39 PM
I'm sorry, I was being facetious and making fun of your over exaggeration, while trying to point out he had a point.

I just dislike when people use bad reasoning to try and kill an interesting idea before its even been attempted.

Its the death of progression, of horizontal expansion.

IF they didn't have an important reason to use cards as a limiting factor for their design then they shouldn't have used cards in the first place.

There are many strategy games out there all sorts n sizes and if you want to use the framework of a card game because it has an audience then you might as well explore the concept that you've latched onto, and the experiences it creates.

FeelNFine
09-05-2013, 04:33 PM
I said it was a good idea, but didn't make sense to be implemented here Q.Q

infact I could argue progrssion and horizontal expansion is why they shouldn't do that. Why explore an old concept when you could explore a new one? Paper TCGs are very fleshed out (not to say there aren't new ideas that haven't hit yet), but digital TCGs are very unexplored. The less of any kind of anchor, the better.

Zomnivore
09-05-2013, 06:48 PM
I don't really see it as an old concept.

Using static digital ui is pretty old hat. In a numerous amount of game systems. Its just how its done, because its always been done that way.

I also don't see Card Hunter as a real demonstration of what I'm saying.

I still don't value your argument of "degree's of separation" it seems like an easy concept to apply to anything in a number of ways without really making a point.

If you use the very basic as is use from Desperate Gods, you get to opt out of coding synergies, in testing phases, and other early stage development of a set.

Seems like a resounding yes for a logical use for the type of system in Desperate Gods.

If people want to get exposed to that testing wise you have a way to offer that rough experience without breaking the game. Something I'm sure has some appeal.

At the end of the day you can say its another degree of separation for role play, or make a vague allusion to how it doesn't make sense in this application without making a solid argument.

Role-playing is probably a niche demographic if I've ever heard of one, and for card games its gotta be even more miniscule as a marketable trait. Not that such a system would even be prohibitively annoying to role players.

Kami
09-05-2013, 09:25 PM
Interesting concept but I agree that it's not suitable for DTCGs like Hex. For stuff like D&D or board games, it might be a fantastic idea though (depending).

The point of a well-designed interface is to make it easy for the user to do whatever it is your 'thing' is designed for. Adding a layer of complexity to an already complex game, in this case, just to make it more physical-like is nonsensical. It would be akin to me giving you a graphing calculator but forcing you to draw your own graphs instead of using the calculator to do it.

On a side-note, roleplaying is not really a niche demographic. It really depends on to what extent of roleplay do you consider roleplay.

FeelNFine
09-06-2013, 01:25 AM
Okay, if I may open up another can of worms, ask fans of Final Fantasy which skill development system and interface was more intuitive and how it affected the game. Sure, from an outside perspective, they all gave close to the same result.

Degrees of Separation is the point itself. You want UI's that are intuitive and invisible. They are the stage crews of videogames. Take Metroid Prime's UI, it blends into the game so well you barely think about it. There have been numerous forms of weapon selection in video games, but MP's was best suited for it. Imagine if there was a slight pause when you changed weapons in Metroid prime, you would lessen the immersion with those pauses because your brain tell you you are playing a video game.

You don't have to be role playing in the sense of 'I'm pretending to be an interstellar bounty hunter' to get immersion in the sense of 'I feel like I'm an interstellar bounty hunter.'

So yes, I would rather have full art animated creatures that move themselves, than a more cardy physical look where I 'move' things myself, because the former makes it easier to feel like you are commanding these awesome creatures in battle, while the latter feels more like I'm playing cool cards with creatures on them.

I don' think your argument has any strength. When has 'I don't like your argument because of the way it sounds' ever been valid in debate?

Zomnivore
09-06-2013, 07:59 AM
I don't think its a particularly hard system to understand. You get into Amnesia and things after you learn the interface become intuitive.

You do things like in real life, lifting objects with swinging motions etc. (I think this has more appeal with cagey old people who don't understand interface design philosophy which us young kippers have been raised along side.)

If hex is trying to have interesting puzzles in the pve aspect of the game, I see less and less problem with having a more physics based system.


Me saying that your argument of "this hurts this by degrees" isn't an important one to consider seems pretty valid to me, when what I'm suggesting creates an entirely new platform for how to get enjoyment out of a digital card game.

Your statements about wanting this to not be a card game, by having monsters and what not duke it out in a 3d modeled representation, seems to ignore a lot of the draw of cards, as a platform for artists to explore an ip. Also Statistical variability and all of the hardwired understanding of chance, in a deck/card format; it's very clear and very well reasoned in its use of random chance as a variable to play.

Using random chance in a game where there's not a clear reason as to why, or if the reasoning seems arbitrary, can also ruin the experience I find.

I'm glad we can both agree to disagree and feel spirited about what we say without getting completely dickish so kudos to you for that.

Kami
09-06-2013, 09:10 AM
You do things like in real life, lifting objects with swinging motions etc. (I think this has more appeal with cagey old people who don't understand interface design philosophy which us young kippers have been raised along side.)

Difference being that in real life, I'm actually doing those actions. I'm not using a proxy motion which does not mimic a real life motion to simulate a real life motion. Unless you want to add yet another layer of complexity by adding motion controls? I'd be curious how you replicate shuffling with a keyboard/mouse with a physics-driven interface.


If hex is trying to have interesting puzzles in the pve aspect of the game, I see less and less problem with having a more physics based system.

I'm not sure why you can't have interesting puzzles without a physics-based system. For one, it's a card game; in what card game do you have physics-based puzzles?! Secondly, it ends up being more of a gimmick than something that furthers the game of Hex. *coughwiimotioncontrolscough*


Your statements about wanting this to not be a card game, by having monsters and what not duke it out in a 3d modeled representation, seems to ignore a lot of the draw of cards, as a platform for artists to explore an ip.

I disagree with this point. Artwork is a huge factor in terms of TCGs. Currently due to the sheer amount of cards and limited resources, 3d modeling (or heck, in the future, holographic imaging) is not feasible but it will eventually be the next step as far as artwork goes.


Also Statistical variability and all of the hardwired understanding of chance, in a deck/card format; it's very clear and very well reasoned in its use of random chance as a variable to play.

Using random chance in a game where there's not a clear reason as to why, or if the reasoning seems arbitrary, can also ruin the experience I find.

Um, what? Could you give an example of what you mean?

FeelNFine
09-06-2013, 05:55 PM
3d Models? What?

My biggest concern is that having a UI that tries to imitate card playing limits what Hex can do with it being a digital TCG. What about future sets? What if they want to make cycles of cards that combine themselves? Or make over sized ritual cards built like puzzle pieces? Or make mounts? The whole thing that makes Hex special is that they are doing things you can't do with card games. To make Hex more like a card game would just hamper the original aspects of Hex, and we'd be soon left with Magic: The Ripoff.

jetah
09-07-2013, 01:26 PM
I haven't played any TCG/CCG game, so take this as you wish.

I've seen Hearthstone played via streams. I like the idea that the "card" is transformed into an icon of the card. You can mouse over the icon and see the information of said card. I like the simplistic view of Hearthstone. I have seen the Hex game play via video's and it was confusing to me. I did get the gist of what was going on, eventually.

Now that cards are catching to up the digital age, we can see things that aren't possible (as FeelNFine said). But I still like my traditional MMO where I can see 3D models. It would be awesome of there was an option (or even DLC upgrade thingie) to change the cards into 3D models. We'd still have the card rules but it look more like chess/Might & Magic/etc. I don't need to see fluid animation just something that mimics the card battling another card.

Seeing an archer shoot an arrow. Seeing an animal pounce the enemy. Seeing the Hero rush over to attack (opposing hero/minion). Seeing an Orc sleeping until next turn. It would be greatly involved to get these going. You'd have a sleep, attack, win, lose, damage taken animation and more if there are more.

I'm sure I'll like or love Hex as is. And who knows how the UI will evolve in the future. But I can still dream!


If the UI is modifiable (with add on support like WoW and Rift) then it might be possible to create these ourselves.