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TheMorningStar
09-05-2013, 09:01 AM
I recently checked out a new CCG Called Alteil Horizens and its kickstarter page and while browsing through the page i realised that its very similar to what HEX did with its kickstarter mainly in terms of their pledge tiers and rewards.

What do you guys think? Is it a rip off of HEX's campaign or do you think well that's just how card games go and that there really isn't any other way of doing rewards for each tier when it comes to card games.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/978065956/alteil-horizions

Westane
09-05-2013, 09:05 AM
Outside of it being a digital CCG... I don't see any real resemblance to Hex... and it's certainty not a ripoff... Also, might pledge.

ossuary
09-05-2013, 09:15 AM
I'd rather the makers of Valkyria Chronicles just make another console-sized Valkyria Chronicles. :p

Personally, I would never pay money for a CCG. Not my bag, baby. :)

arastor
09-05-2013, 09:37 AM
Valkyrie Profile, not Chronicles, although they are both awesome games. That said, I played Altiel a few years back and was less than impressed. Balance was pretty bad. Blue (or whatever the proper name for that faction) could easily do complete shut-down. A summary of what all they are changing would be helpful, because I would not want to get smacked around like that again. :(

Icepick
09-05-2013, 09:41 AM
The problem this kickstarter (and almost every other digital TCG kickstarter I've seen beside Hex) has is that it doesn't have a proper gameplay video. You can have the best campaign in the world but if I can't watch a video to see how your game actually plays a normal game, there's no way I'm backing it.

Aradon
09-05-2013, 09:45 AM
I'm skeptical of this KS, whereas I wasn't really skeptical of Hex, which isn't a great thing. I'm just not sure of their ability to balance and handle the game well. They seem like they have a lot of unique ideas, but I don't know if they've thought everything out well enough. What worries me most is that their tagline advertises 'the creators of Star Ocean and Valkyrie Profile,' but the game at its core is about card game mechanics. Experienced artists and story creators are great, but the game will fail if they don't have experienced card designers.

What would ease my concerns about the game would be to see card examples, and more thorough explanations of how the game specifically works. Hex functioned very similarly to Magic, so I could tell the foundation of the game was solid. This, less so.

Still, I might back it at a lower level out of interest.

Kami
09-05-2013, 09:51 AM
Yeah... this isn't remotely similar to Hex. This is more of a tactical RPG using 'cards' as style as opposed to a card game. You could easily replace the cards in this game with drawn sprites and the gameplay wouldn't change much.

There's a sense that the developers for Alteil Horizons are focusing too much on style as opposed to gameplay. Their developer repertoire lacks specifics as to what aspects they have experience in and they chose to only list titles they've worked on instead.

I could be wrong but it seems as though this is a rush job to try to capitalize on the DTCG 'fad' at the moment. What bothers me more is that they have stretch goals already. Their rewards for backers also seem very unbalanced and very superficial.

Curiously, I'm surprised you heard of it considering how few backers there are for it currently.

BossHoss
09-05-2013, 09:55 AM
Curiously, I'm surprised you heard of it considering how few backers there are for it currently.

Perhaps this thread is a crossover plug from an Alteil creator?

arastor
09-05-2013, 09:55 AM
It's showing up all over the place on gaming sites, which is kind of weird seeing as the original game is so minor. Guess they must be doing a rather bang-up job on getting ahold of the press.

Aradon
09-05-2013, 09:56 AM
Also, if any of you back, could you let them know on their comments that the Community Leader tier currently advertises 10 gifts-to-friends of 1000 gran ($100 value), which is incorrect on one side or another. It appears that $1 = 100 gran, so the gifts are either 10,000 gran or $10 value (more likely). This made me think that the $20 tier (which awards 1000 gran) was a lot more valuable than it actually was.

Voices
09-05-2013, 09:56 AM
Curiously, I'm surprised you heard of it considering how few backers there are for it currently.

I was registered with their old game and got an e-mail today about the KS.

Why wouldn't you want to emulate CZE's KS campaign anyway? After all, they were quite succesful, to say the least :) I think the guys behind Chromancer have also learnt a thing or two from CZE in this respect.

As for the actual game, I personally need much more information about the actual game-play in order to make up my mind whether to pledge or not.

BossHoss
09-05-2013, 09:58 AM
Also, if any of you back, could you let them know on their comments that the Community Leader tier currently advertises 10 gifts-to-friends of 1000 gran ($100 value), which is incorrect on one side or another. It appears that $1 = 100 gran, so the gifts are either 10,000 gran or $10 value (more likely). This made me think that the $20 tier (which awards 1000 gran) was a lot more valuable than it actually was.

10 gifts of 1000($10) = $100 value...

MoikPEI
09-05-2013, 09:58 AM
They have SMBC in the rewards.
SMBC is huge. Probably there was a blog post or tweet.
But yeah, for game kickstarters, I'd wanna see a prototype before I put up a pledge.

Diesbudt
09-05-2013, 09:59 AM
Looked at this. Thought, "hey ok looks cool". But with no PvE, I can't say I would back it. As I love the aspect of casual play against an A.I.

Plus I see the August 2014tag, that is a bit long for me as well.

However if the kickstarter does well, I believe we need another countdown thread. I miss those during the Hex kickstarter counting down Pro and Grand king tiers.

Turtlewing
09-05-2013, 09:59 AM
Looks (from a casual skim) like they're taking Warlord into the digital arena in a similar way to how Hex is taking Magic.

It will play very differently from Hex. They do seem to be mimicking Hex's rewards structure (but who can blame them given Hex's success).

Aradon
09-05-2013, 09:59 AM
It's showing up all over the place on gaming sites, which is kind of weird seeing as the original game is so minor. Guess they must be doing a rather bang-up job on getting ahold of the press.

They seem to be cross-advertising pretty well. They've gotten a hold of Zach Weiner from SMBC for art, Nils Hamm from MtG for art, and apparently have a lot of press. This seems to be intended to be a major release. All that remains to be seen is if their design skills can hold up to the expectations they're setting themselves up for.

On-topic: No, I don't think this has much to do with Hex, other than Hex and Hearthstone signalling a golden age for digital TCGs. Once a few are successful, there will be many who try and mimic the genre. This has quite a few distinguishing factors, though. Most notably, the field-positioning element, and apparently something about selecting cards from decks rather than drawing them.

Voices
09-05-2013, 10:03 AM
The OP is about the potential similartity between the two Kickstarters...

Kilo24
09-05-2013, 10:16 AM
I think the OP was honing more on the campaign similarities than the underlying game similarities. And it does look similar, although I really wouldn't consider it to be a rip off.

As for the game itself, I am curious. It could be interesting, and, heck, I might even like the base gameplay better than Hex's. All other things being equal, I certainly would prefer a game with that pitch than Hex's. But, there's a number of things about it that make me a lot more leery about crossing the thin line that I have between spending nothing to back it and spending the arm and a leg that I have for Hex.

The biggest one is that Hex's base gameplay is very similar to MTG's. Personally, I really don't like a lot of MTG's mechanics, but it does make it a far safer bet than a newer base that hasn't had nearly as much content made for it. Hex is similar enough that the designers can effectively pull from 20 years of MTG for their basic design, and so chances are very low that it won't have a similar level of depth.

But as far as the Kickstarter is concerned, the most important part is that you can take any reward in Hex, imagine it in MTG with almost no changes, and envision the effects. In Hex, you see a Spectral Lotus Kickstarter exclusive, think "cantripping Black Lotus", and suddenly you can see the effects it'll have in decks. In Alteil Horizons, you see an Obsidian Dragon Kickstarter exclusive, and... you have no idea what it'll do. They don't show the card itself, and even if they did they'd need to explain the mechanics before it was meaningful. And even so, no amount of explanation is a substitute for the understanding yielded by playing the game.

Now, there are more issues in play. They're not trumpeting a massive PvE half to the game, the tiers aren't as obviously powerful (no weekly drafts from now until doomsday for starters), and it's a new company formed to make this game instead of something already established. But I think that the distance from MTG is the biggest factor in how different this Kickstarter's success will be from Hex's, even if it will result in a better base game in the long run (which I do think is not an unlikely possibility). This will probably be a "wait and see" game for me.

felmare
09-05-2013, 10:20 AM
ya for me no gameplay vid = no back.

Filena
09-05-2013, 10:56 AM
Not enough money for play 2 card game ^^

teasel
09-05-2013, 10:58 AM
i played a lot of the old alteil game and it suffered from massive amount of power creep,that's not to mention how actual F2P player were forced to play a stupid memory game to earn enough money for a single card every 2 day,of course the common all sucked and it was almost impossible to play a card unless you had a full playset (as card tended to die and needed extra copy to be resurrected)

as for being somewhat similiar to hex... alteil plays nothing like a classic TCG let alone hex/MTG... if you want the short version the gimmick is that you have your entire deck avaiable and can play any card you want at any moment... each turn both player play a single card simultaneously and then it resolve,there are spell whose effect resolve automaticaly and unit who comes into play the next turn,unit have a RNG which translate into what unit they can hit (their target is random so a high range might translate into hitting a support unit if you are lucky or just their front heavy tank) and a speed which dictates the turn order

the having the whole deck thing should help "strategy" but in truth it just turn the game into enforcing 2-3 overpowered combo that involve super rare cards,i can't tell you how frustated this game made me

Maphalux
09-05-2013, 11:02 AM
I just tried out the Alteil game that currently exists. It is browser based game with heavy anime flavor. Alteil is a CCG which means there is no trading. You have to either buy the cards in the shop or get a lucky random treasure drop through dueling. The game that currently exists is pretty clunky and lots of spelling errors. I'm sure the new one will be better designed though.

As each turn starts, you select any card in your deck to play which will be mostly troops. Then you reveal the troop. If it has any come into play abilities, these activate. Then combat starts. The game's set up is kind of like lane combat but attacking is actually random. You can hit anyone within your troop's range of attack. You have no control over it and neither does your opponent.

There isn't really a concept of taking turns and there are no quick actions. The combat phase happens for both players at the same time. Troops get an agility score and the ones with higher agility get to act before the lower ones. After the dust settles you can lay out your selected card on the field.

There appears to be a day/night cycle as well but I didn't quite figure out exactly what its purpose was.

Obviously, the game is nothing like HEX though it is very obvious they are trying to ride the coattails of HEX's KS campaign.

I wish them well on it, but the game isn't my cup of tea.

teasel
09-05-2013, 04:25 PM
the day/night cycle works with some unit,one of the really strong deck that was abused by the time i got really frustated of playing alteil (though i'm sure by now it's old history) was a deck with lycantrope monster who sucked during day but were incredibly strong during night

of course there was a rare which locked the game into night until killed... remember under alteil rules you can play it at any time because you have access to your whole deck and you have to kill it multiple times because unit resurrect for free by burning copies in your deck

did i mention how power creepy the game was?

Angelspawn
09-05-2013, 05:14 PM
I just created this account to clear some things up. (i'm a regulair alteil player)
- There's alot of misconception about the old alteil. This game is 12 sets old by now, and during this time balance has changed ALOT. They adjusted overpowered and underpowered cards, and new sets have added more solutions at your disposal. All strategies have matured to the point there really isn't one deck above all others.

- Gamedesign comes mostly translated from the Japanese Alteil. It's been running for more then 10 years. That's 10 years without any animated series like Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon to back up its fanbase, while staying the #1 on the CCG/TCG charts. There is plenty of experience, knowledge and skillful designers behind these cards. ;)

- Alteil:Horizons will include a player marketplace for trading.

- The rarity of a card does not warrant more power. Each card gets the same amount of points apropiate to their level: lvl3 of highest rarity gets the same amount of statuspoints as a lvl3 of lowest rarity (devided over Agility/Range/Attack/HealthPoints/Defense). The skills a unit can perform are balanced by the SP (aka. mana) cost.
Low rarity starterdecks win tourneys. It comes down to when & how you use this SP (mana) + own tactical insight + how well your deck is build as a whole. (splashing random cards together<<<synergy)

- Each card is directly aviable to you if you can pay the apropiate rescources. Each unit on the field gets a turn based upon its Agility. It can: 1) normal attack, 2) standby = heal 25% HP, or 3) select one of its skills, 4) move. Normal attack hits a random unit within range. Certain skills could be used to hit a target unit(s). Tactics help single out the unit(s) aswell you want to hit.

- wanna know more about the gameplay? Youtube or go play the old alteil.. it's online and ongoing.

I've played MtG and the thing that drawn me to Alteil was the amount of depth the gameplay can have. But the sheer fact you have more then only an Atk and Def value already tells you that much. You do have to like that aspect of more decision making and less 'luck of the draw'. This cardgame isn't learned overnight... and thats been its biggest flaw aswell. Knowledge and experience wins games, doing 'whatever the card can do' when you play it isn't enough.

majin
09-05-2013, 11:40 PM
i checked it out earlier and one thing i like about the company running it is they are putting their players first

they will be transferring the cards / cash of current players to the new game once it is released http://www.alteil.com/index.php/component/content/article/1-latest-news/3286-official-alteil-horizons-kickstarter-launch

and like what angelspawn said, the game was out since 2003 and you can still play it now. they just don't want to advertise the old one as they admit it is really outdated (graphics, design, maybe some functonalities) but they created the new version from scratch

it is currently a CCG but the $120 stretch goal will feature an auction house which will make it a TCG

it won't be a direct competition of hex as the game play is very different. it will have 1000 cards on release because that's the current number of cards (see anglespawn's post)

i am interested in the game even if i don't have the time to play the current version yet and i think it has a potential.

it lasted 10 years with just the core players and an outdated system, how much more if they revamped it and added more features

my main problem is if i can play it once hex is out but i am hoping to :)

blakegrandon
09-06-2013, 05:57 AM
I just created this account to clear some things up. (i'm a regulair alteil player)

Oh yea?


- Gamedesign comes mostly translated from the Japanese Alteil. It's been running for more then 10 years. That's 10 years without any animated series like Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon to back up its fanbase, while staying the #1 on the CCG/TCG charts. There is plenty of experience, knowledge and skillful designers behind these cards.

#1 on what charts? This is literally the first time I've ever heard of Alteil.



This cardgame isn't learned overnight... and thats been its biggest flaw aswell. Knowledge and experience wins games, doing 'whatever the card can do' when you play it isn't enough.

As much as I like games with depth, games with steep learning curves are dead in the water if they want to have any real commercial success.

I have a feeling you have more ties to Alteil than as a customer with the way you posted... No offense but you have one post and your post goes contrary to others that have played Alteil, and it stinks of being a "press release"

Diesbudt
09-06-2013, 06:42 AM
Did I just see someone claim a card game I have never heard of, and looks average at best was #1 on some chart that

A) doesn't exist
B) If it did, last I check Yugioh, MTG and Pokémon world championships were massive and are Internationally popular.
C) To make an account to just speak about a game that isn't that games forums, is a pretty poor way to come across as well.

"Alteil claims to be the most popular online card game in its home country" (from Wikipedia)

They claim. No proof. Also just 1 country. other card games are more popular around the world. On top of that most popular ONLINE card game claim. I didn't know there was any real competition for something like that... and even so give it a few months, Hearthstones popularity will blow it outta the water with number of accounts. Hex will also get popular once a MtG type card game hits Online.

Malicus
09-06-2013, 07:13 AM
Wow no need to be hostile to the guy - he was upfront about why he made the account and no reason to assume he wasn't genuine about it - you really gain nothing by taking that position.

The name rang a small bell in the back of my mind when I read the first post and I played the game years ago too - it was fun but I found it to be somewhat inaccessible as a free player and putting money into something like that seemed crazy to me at the time (investing in Hex also would have been crazy to me at that time).

Aradon
09-06-2013, 07:37 AM
Thanks for sharing the info, Angelspawn, even if some people are distrustful. What you're saying seems to be in line with what the producers have been saying as well, particularly with deck variety in recent years.

monkeysmiles
09-06-2013, 08:04 AM
Ok so to attempt to set things straight, Alteil US currently has a devoted fan base of which the Angelspawn is a part of as well as myself. We are not affiliated with anything alteil just long time fans. I AM a backer of Hex at the king level. I've been lurking on this forum and I was going to make my forum account after alpha was released, but with alteil being discussed (my only online game I play with hex currently being the only other one).

I had played MTG for a while, then mostly dropped it when I found alteil. I joined Alteil in 2008 and though i've tried other "popular" online tcg and other popular online titles like LoL, for me alteil was the only game that I stuck with. The game has shown many amazing aspects that many who tried it loved. It just suffered from a poor business model that made players feel it was a "pay to win", and the fact that the only way to get cards outside of pre-builts was relying on randomized packs or lotteries. Now with age old veterans dominating the arenas it is extremely difficult for new players to get started as the starting player base is so low they cant really find matches in the beginner arenas. With Horizons though this will all be taken care of through blocks, auction house, a system that takes into account your card collection when randomizing, i believe in the alteil team, they have a card game system that I prefer over the MTG/Hex system, they have amazing anime type art that mixes elements some traditional fantasy type units with more original designs, and a solid plan to have a system that can do the game justice. It just needs to gather a bigger player base and raise funds so they can deliver said player base a game that is top notch.

It was all of hex's content mainly pve that made me pledge the MTG mechanic was actually a downer for me, after playing alteil for so long the fact that I have to rely on random drawing really didn't appeal to me nor the fact that I have to now throw in so many unappealing threshold cards where in alteil they give you two points to play spells per turn for both players so one doesn't feel they've got screwed. Both games do feature play styles and flavors that I love so I will be playing both. I hope alteil succeeds in its kickstarter and meet as many strech goals as it can so it can offer as much content as hex.

I do want to also say that so called popularity should have no affect on your decision making process, for me I can almost say I never tried a popular game i liked with a few acceptions. All of my games, activities, music, ect. comes from my own personal taste that I find often doesn't align with the majority, but although the communities are smaller I often find the quality to be higher. I just want to encourage all to make your own personal decisions and to not go with whats on the popularity chart and get out and explore! There is obviously Alteil that many haven't heard of.

I encourage you to pladge to alteil if you do enjoy top quality card games especially if your an anime enthusiast there are plenty more cards and strategies down the road you can try and the more support they have the better.

Thank you all for listening.

Diesbudt
09-06-2013, 08:17 AM
Ok so to attempt to set things straight, Alteil US currently has a devoted fan base of which the Angelspawn is a part of as well as myself. We are not affiliated with anything alteil just long time fans. I AM a backer of Hex at the king level. I've been lurking on this forum and I was going to make my forum account after alpha was released, but with alteil being discussed (my only online game I play with hex currently being the only other one).

I had played MTG for a while, then mostly dropped it when I found alteil. I joined Alteil in 2008 and though i've tried other "popular" online tcg and other popular online titles like LoL, for me alteil was the only game that I stuck with. The game has shown many amazing aspects that many who tried it loved. It just suffered from a poor business model that made players feel it was a "pay to win", and the fact that the only way to get cards outside of pre-builts was relying on randomized packs or lotteries. Now with age old veterans dominating the arenas it is extremely difficult for new players to get started as the starting player base is so low they cant really find matches in the beginner arenas. With Horizons though this will all be taken care of through blocks, auction house, a system that takes into account your card collection when randomizing, i believe in the alteil team, they have a card game system that I prefer over the MTG/Hex system, they have amazing anime type art that mixes elements some traditional fantasy type units with more original designs, and a solid plan to have a system that can do the game justice. It just needs to gather a bigger player base and raise funds so they can deliver said player base a game that is top notch.

It was all of hex's content mainly pve that made me pledge the MTG mechanic was actually a downer for me, after playing alteil for so long the fact that I have to rely on random drawing really didn't appeal to me nor the fact that I have to now throw in so many unappealing threshold cards where in alteil they give you two points to play spells per turn for both players so one doesn't feel they've got screwed. Both games do feature play styles and flavors that I love so I will be playing both. I hope alteil succeeds in its kickstarter and meet as many strech goals as it can so it can offer as much content as hex.

I do want to also say that so called popularity should have no affect on your decision making process, for me I can almost say I never tried a popular game i liked with a few acceptions. All of my games, activities, music, ect. comes from my own personal taste that I find often doesn't align with the majority, but although the communities are smaller I often find the quality to be higher. I just want to encourage all to make your own personal decisions and to not go with whats on the popularity chart and get out and explore! There is obviously Alteil that many haven't heard of.

I encourage you to pladge to alteil if you do enjoy top quality card games especially if your an anime enthusiast there are plenty more cards and strategies down the road you can try and the more support they have the better.

Thank you all for listening.

2 things I need to put into perspective or question about your post.

1) You have tried other "popular" online tcg(s). What ones? Because honestly... I didn't even know there was any popular online tcgs as they were all bad, or watered down versions of internationally popular paper versions (Pokémon, MtG). So to me the way you all are saying these posts to me is you guys chose the nickel, because all that remained were the pennies (When with the current trend of online TCGs getting much stronger... there is what 7 new ones coming out in the next 2 years? I can't back them all...) dimes, quarters and even dollar amounts are beginning to appear.

2) You may like that system over MtG, Poke, Yugioh, Hex, whatever. I don't; I HATE games like that. I LOVE games that have RNG, and puts importance on deck structure. So do many other people. (If they didn't MtG would have never taken off internationally as it has). So using the MTG type system + A.I. (robust PvE) is the major reason I backed. If they would have used the Alteil system (yes I looked it up) I would not have backed, and I bet a lot of other wouldn't have either. I am not saying you shouldn't enjoy what you enjoy that is all personal taste. But don't try calling a different card game "superior" when in reality its just personal choice. Because I fine the MtG system superior to all other systems (this includes; yugioh, pokemon, WoW (really didn't like WoWs Any card can be a resource mechanic), duel masters, yuyu hakusho, etc.) [Yes I have tried/played all those TCGs

monkeysmiles
09-06-2013, 09:10 AM
" i believe in the alteil team, they have a card game system that I prefer over the MTG/Hex system"
This is not a statement saying that one game system is superior to the other.

"Because I fine the MtG system superior to all other systems"
This is, which is fine as you use I in the sentence.

"So to me the way you all are saying these posts to me is you guys chose the nickel, because all that remained were the pennies"
This is an insulting statement making a person not unlike many on this forum feel bad that they spent time and even money on a card game they enjoy.

"So do many other people."
They can speak for themselves if they wish it is neither of our place to speak on what others think.

"and I bet a lot of other wouldn't have either."
again whose to say, you can easily say many can find out about the alteil system and like that better like myself, i may be a minority and I may not; again that is not for me to say.

I am not continuing this conversation

Kilo24
09-06-2013, 09:21 AM
Thanks, Angelspawn and monkeysmiles. I appreciate the info on Alteil, even if I don't think I'll support the Kickstarter. I'm not particularly fond of the core MTG mechanics either, but Hex's PVE and a few other things I've mentioned in an earlier post in this thread mean that I still would have spent far more money on Hex than Alteil even if I knew both were coming out. Still - and regardless of how much anyone likes one game over the other - there is no good reason for the vitriol hurled at you here.

MattyTheSquid
09-06-2013, 10:16 AM
Funny story: back when I was being interviewed for my first game design position, I used Alteil as an example for one of the points I had to make.

Nthanel
09-06-2013, 10:29 AM
A good example or a bad example?

Gwaer
09-06-2013, 10:34 AM
I'll give them some money and check it out. Cory didn't accept my proposal for a 20 year payment plan to buy producer. =( I've gotta throw money at something.

Nthanel
09-06-2013, 10:40 AM
lol, Tell ya what Gwaer Ill let ya throw money at me.

Gwaer
09-06-2013, 10:41 AM
Ill throw socks full of pennies at you.

Nthanel
09-06-2013, 10:42 AM
Lol, Sweet! Done and Done!

blakegrandon
09-06-2013, 11:00 AM
Wow no need to be hostile to the guy - he was upfront about why he made the account and no reason to assume he wasn't genuine about it - you really gain nothing by taking that position.

Except he was the second "new" poster to all of a sudden extoll Alteil's virtues while saying he's a "customer".

There is a difference between being wary of brand new members promoting a product and being hostile.


Ok so to attempt to set things straight, Alteil US currently has a devoted fan base of which the Angelspawn is a part of as well as myself. We are not affiliated with anything alteil just long time fans. I AM a backer of Hex at the king level. I've been lurking on this forum and I was going to make my forum account after alpha was released, but with alteil being discussed (my only online game I play with hex currently being the only other one).

I am skeptical that your first post is here yet you're a backer of Hex at the king level. That said I hope you continue to post in discussions other than Alteil to prove me wrong, but I have seen this happen all the time where they say they're lurkers, post in support of a company, then disappear to never be heard from again.



I had played MTG for a while, then mostly dropped it when I found alteil. I joined Alteil in 2008 and though i've tried other "popular" online tcg and other popular online titles like LoL, for me alteil was the only game that I stuck with. The game has shown many amazing aspects that many who tried it loved.

Glad you like it. This is going to be a totally different game, so I'm not sure why we're discussing Alteil.


It just suffered from a poor business model that made players feel it was a "pay to win", and the fact that the only way to get cards outside of pre-builts was relying on randomized packs or lotteries. Now with age old veterans dominating the arenas it is extremely difficult for new players to get started as the starting player base is so low they cant really find matches in the beginner arenas.

That sounds terrible and like a company that doesn't know what it's doing... Why would I feel comfortable giving them my money? It's like people that believe EA still makes great games, sure they do, but they also make a LOT of terrible games.

With Horizons though this will all be taken care of through blocks, auction house, a system that takes into account your card collection when randomizing, i believe in the alteil team, they have a card game system that I prefer over the MTG/Hex system, they have amazing anime type art that mixes elements some traditional fantasy type units with more original designs, and a solid plan to have a system that can do the game justice. It just needs to gather a bigger player base and raise funds so they can deliver said player base a game that is top notch.

You know this is going to be fixed how? Based on prior terrible business decisions? Because you're a "fan" and don't work for them at all? Blind loyalty is not a good thing, your previous statements show they make some questionable decisons.


It was all of hex's content mainly pve that made me pledge the MTG mechanic was actually a downer for me, after playing alteil for so long the fact that I have to rely on random drawing really didn't appeal to me nor the fact that I have to now throw in so many unappealing threshold cards where in alteil they give you two points to play spells per turn for both players so one doesn't feel they've got screwed. Both games do feature play styles and flavors that I love so I will be playing both. I hope alteil succeeds in its kickstarter and meet as many strech goals as it can so it can offer as much content as hex.

So you hate Hex's game play but pledged a king purely for the PVE? Yet you love Alteil's gameplay but they don't offer PVE? Personally I would prefer to play a game I like fully rather than a game where I enjoy half of it.



I do want to also say that so called popularity should have no affect on your decision making process, for me I can almost say I never tried a popular game i liked with a few acceptions. All of my games, activities, music, ect. comes from my own personal taste that I find often doesn't align with the majority, but although the communities are smaller I often find the quality to be higher. I just want to encourage all to make your own personal decisions and to not go with whats on the popularity chart and get out and explore! There is obviously Alteil that many haven't heard of.
Personally I'm not going to take the opinion of some brand new member posting after two other brand new members over that of established members that did not enjoy Alteil. No offense but no one is saying popularity should have an effect on decision making process. What we're saying is that the creators of Alteil clearly have questionable business decision making abilities.


I encourage you to pladge to alteil if you do enjoy top quality card games especially if your an anime enthusiast there are plenty more cards and strategies down the road you can try and the more support they have the better.
Thank you all for listening.

I like anime, I don't like anime based games(Dragon Quest being the only exception and based on my youth)

Prove me wrong and stick around on the forums, until then I am highly questioning you and the other two new poster's "truthfulness". If I had to place a bet today I'd say all 3 accounts are the same person, but hey I could be wrong and 3 random lurkers found this thread and decided to all take the same stance...


Funny story: back when I was being interviewed for my first game design position, I used Alteil as an example for one of the points I had to make.

It's like you forgot where you were going with this story and went off to ride a bike.

What was the point? Don't leave us hanging! :-p

Diesbudt
09-06-2013, 11:06 AM
I am not continuing this conversation

That wasn't ment to be an insulting statement (the nickel/penny). What I am trying to metaphor is previously, online TCGs do not offer a lot. They are a shadow of a physical version, or have too many restrictions, or issues (especially on the business side).

Now that it seems to be getting popular, as I have seen a lot of new ones appearing at conventions and on kickstarter, a lot seem to put the previous ones to shame. Thus saying that a lot of better online TCGs are coming. And some like Hearthstone, which has the Blizzard name behind it and the F2P tag, are already having major number of people wanting to test it and cant wait to play it. Hex has potential to be massive, because it uses statistically the most popular TCG system.

Also, you say you have tried all popular online TCGs, and I commented I don't know of any, as all I have tried prior to last year or so were "meh" at best. Thus, saying all the previous online TCGs were not up to snuff to really put myself behind. Thus "pennies".

Also everything I stated that you questioned was based of statistics. The number of people who play. Not a dead on fact. It is an opinion, but it is the majority opinion. Deck building with restrictions on resources is in itself a fun challenge a lot of people I know like. Removing that aspect cheapens and weakens the enjoyment players have of that.

Diesbudt
09-06-2013, 11:10 AM
Except he was the second "new" poster to all of a sudden extoll Alteil's virtues while saying he's a "customer".

There is a difference between being wary of brand new members promoting a product and being hostile.



I am skeptical that your first post is here yet you're a backer of Hex at the king level. That said I hope you continue to post in discussions other than Alteil to prove me wrong, but I have seen this happen all the time where they say they're lurkers, post in support of a company, then disappear to never be heard from again.




This is my main reason why I am questioning what is said. Making an account to just post on the forums to talk about a game NOT involved in said forums and saying why it is more fun or better (either in a fact like statement or in an opinion) is rude in itself. Secondly, a lot of people do this all the time. If you watched the WoW general forums during the release of every new MMO. This trend always happened, the people who wanted the game they cared about more than the "big boy WoW" to crush the game majority cared about bashed it over and over how much better their game was on Warcraft's forums.

Gwaer
09-06-2013, 11:18 AM
It's not a bad thing though really, is it? So what if people go on wow to try to get them to try a new mmo. Lots of MMO's are better than wow in my opinion. If these guys really care about their game, having a discussion with them about it isn't the end of the world. I think hex will likely be better. But they were not anywhere near as rude and insulting to us as the hex people were to them. =\ if we approached this differently maybe we could have instead had. Real discussion about the differences and what that might mean for different types of players.

Diesbudt
09-06-2013, 11:23 AM
It's not a bad thing though really, is it? So what if people go on wow to try to get them to try a new mmo. Lots of MMO's are better than wow in my opinion. If these guys really care about their game, having a discussion with them about it isn't the end of the world. I think hex will likely be better. But they were not anywhere near as rude and insulting to us as the hex people were to them. =\ if we approached this differently maybe we could have instead had. Real discussion about the differences and what that might mean for different types of players.

It would be different if someone who had some post history, like 25-30 posts previously come in and go "OH yea! That game. I have played it for a while. It was ______".

Instead it is new posters. While posters who have post history said the game was "meh" and the new posters were trying to completely contradict what they were saying. Though ill admit monkeysmiles did it in a much better manner than Angel, and I think I took some of the annoyances from Angels post onto him (because he is right, you should play what you enjoy. Not just the popular choice).

But what would happen if I went on another TCG site and did the same thing? It started off rude, and we (I am also in this offensive group) responded in a rude way.

However a question that keeps popping up, is why did angel post, people counter/were somewhat rude, and immediately "another" poster showed up NEW also in no time to help defend Angel. This in itself is questionable.

Never said anything against the game, other than I do not enjoy games like that where deck construction is not as big of a deal or restriction than one with resources. I just pointed out what they said and wanted them to defend or explain in more detail.

Plus in any defense I have backed most online tcgs I have seen on kickstarter as I love the idea of good complete tcgs online and not the shadow of a physical version that started it. And I hope it succeeds because (A) more successful TCGs = more online TCGs get made = Better chance of good ones I play.

P.S. I would have backed this game if not for:
A) If it wasn't for the fact you do spend a lot of money (from people I have now asked about this) to truly enjoy the game.
B) If it was not for the "August 2014" tag. I try not to "fund" Kickstarter farther out than 6 months from their "release" tag.
C) I see no PvE in it.

Gwaer
09-06-2013, 11:30 AM
If they were friends that both play altiel, and both backed hex at king, but never talked on the forums that would make sense. There are tons of backers that do not talk on the forums. Any number of topics could inspire them to actually post. High on that list of things is a topic coming up they are familiar with. Most of the people who have said meh things said they have not played inquire a long time. It's possible everything these new people said was accurate. It's also possible it was propaganda. But in either case it does us no real harm being civil and grilling them about their game with interest rather than hostility.

Im not going to keep defending them, I just would have liked this conversation to go differently that's all.

Tathel
09-06-2013, 11:43 AM
Judging by their progress i would say they started their game before the hex kickstarter. It does look like the hex kickstarter had an influence on how they decided to present themselves, but i think they'd be dumb not to look at a successful campaign and try learn from what the other campaign did.

BlackRoger
09-06-2013, 11:55 AM
Geez guys, lay off the hate, you're starting to sound like lawyers trying to discredit a witness.
More points about the game please.

Also a question for those pro for this game.
I was kind of put back when I read that the units attack randomly.
I mean all this talk about it being more strategic because "no luck of draw".
So instead you make the perfect move and... hope your units actually attack in the right way?
At least luck of draw made games different from one another, now it will be same games with same moves just different results?
How much impact does this randomness have on the game?

Dralon
09-06-2013, 12:27 PM
Random meaningless comparison of the day:

While it is perfectly acceptable and good business to open up your Burger King across the street from McDonald's, it is generally poor form to hand out Burger King flyers at the McDonald's drive through.

Diesbudt
09-06-2013, 01:42 PM
Judging by their progress i would say they started their game before the hex kickstarter. It does look like the hex kickstarter had an influence on how they decided to present themselves, but i think they'd be dumb not to look at a successful campaign and try learn from what the other campaign did.

-Back on topic-

Yes, the game may have been worked on prior to Hex and Hex's announcement to release. And figuring out how to use kickstarter to help fund the more intricate parts of the game, and came across Hex's style. Thus I am certain being a similar genre of online game, they saw the way the tiers were set-up and really liked it. (Can't blame them, I thought how "most" the tiers were set up was clever). So they used a similar Kickstarter set-up. Which I think is a good idea. Only thing I would have recommended was to only show the first 3 stretch goals until they get close or hit them, unveiling them over time. Thus the "anticipation" of the next stretch goal may create more backers.

However, I wonder if it happened to get some of the same level of pledges Hex did, if people will start sniping again. We all know kickstarter loved that.

Diesbudt
09-06-2013, 01:43 PM
Random meaningless comparison of the day:

While it is perfectly acceptable and good business to open up your Burger King across the street from McDonald's, it is generally poor form to hand out Burger King flyers at the McDonald's drive through.

This... is so accurately a comparison in joke form... I give credit to you sir.

blakegrandon
09-06-2013, 01:57 PM
But they were not anywhere near as rude and insulting to us as the hex people were to them.

Asking them to prove they're not shills for Alteil is far from being rude and insulting.

Sorry, but I see too many companies engage in this sort of behavior, and really 1-2 new players I could see posting, but when you have 3 posters join the same day and all engage in the same posting style, it's either a really enthusiastic poster or a "social media guru" hired by Alteil to post stuff all over the web.

Heck, there are companies you can pay to argue with yourself or with themselves on a forum, my guess is Alteil hired either a social media "guy" or a company to engage in this type of behavior to get their name out there.

When a "fan" with one post is saying things like " #1 on the CCG/TCG charts" then it screams shilling.

I have a feeling alteil is trying to prod their kickstarter using whatever tools it can, I can't really blame them for doing whatever it takes to succeed.

Personally I have no interest in backing another TCG, Hex pretty much saturates my need for digital TCGs.

teasel
09-06-2013, 03:06 PM
Geez guys, lay off the hate, you're starting to sound like lawyers trying to discredit a witness.
More points about the game please.

Also a question for those pro for this game.
I was kind of put back when I read that the units attack randomly.
I mean all this talk about it being more strategic because "no luck of draw".
So instead you make the perfect move and... hope your units actually attack in the right way?
At least luck of draw made games different from one another, now it will be same games with same moves just different results?
How much impact does this randomness have on the game?

well there are way to control the randomness,some unit have skills that let you pick the target... unit with a range of 1 can only hit unit in the row in front of them which means they will have at best 3 targets (since you can put 3 units per row and that rarely happens) and of course nothing stop you from playing a spell since those are usualy targeted to kill a target so your unit can concentrate on the other one

but really i can't stress enough how much power creepy this game was,between a set and another they released pack of cards called ex card which guaranteed you 4 cards that weren't part of the actual in game set... of course these card were quite powerfull or had effect that weren't on normal card... one card basicaly bounced all the weenies on board which wasn't bad in itself... but then they released an ex card which turned all card on the opponent board into weenie and suddenly the only people that could keep any sort of board presence were the one who bought the ex card pack... this was particulary bad because in alteil your mana ramps up really slowly (back when i played lot of games started with both players playing mana ramping spell and unit which by the way are in all four color because they were needed for a lot of deck) because you get refunded your mana when you let a creature die but not when it get bounced (to make up for the slow ramp)

i think they decided to fix it like... after 6 month? another ex card had a skill which turned all of your unit into invincible super hard hitting monster for one turn whenever one of your unit died... of course nothing stopped you from putting multiples of it in your deck so you had to weather it down for several turns and of course no similiar skill was found on actual set card let alone the common!

unless they went into some tibetan monastery that teached them the art of humilty and card balance that's what you can expect

monkeysmiles
09-06-2013, 07:12 PM
I am honestly not a forum poster or online chatter, i don't really even text people much. I usually am more of the type to interact with people in person, most of my online gaming I don't interact unless i feel i could add something significant or if the person seems like a really fun and awsome person. No one from alteil made this post but the comments that followed was misleading, not really being big on straightening it all out and not being the best informed person on the horizon project, i shared this thread in an alteil chat as I was happy it was being talked about.

I never seen it talked about outside the community and i got a little excited about it. but with one of our members trying to clear misconceptions wasn't as well received as I hoped I thought myself as a hex backer could help to clarify and share my experience. I spoke my piece and will go back to being a lurker time will tell if I actually care to get involved socially or not, but I will be playing the game as I know I will enjoy it. I like the mechanics just the drawing feature i'm not fond off, but harldy a reason to quit a game al together, obviously since i stuck with alteil for so long i'm not a fickle player if my gmae has a little bumps, I am still able to get alot of enjoyment out of it. I've already been discussing cards with my brother and we discuss strategies and that is satisfactory to me now. I actually was the one that introduced the game to him and he bacame a slacker backer, so its not just alteil. I just like sharing things I like and I want the things i like to do well.

I do appreciate those wanting to have a conversation about the alteil game please if your interested or want questions answered you can email the kickstarter account and they will be able to answer you better than I can.

Stok3d
09-06-2013, 09:09 PM
I do appreciate those wanting to have a conversation about the alteil game please if your interested or want questions answered you can email the kickstarter account and they will be able to answer you better than I can.

gl on your kickstarter, but the Hex boards isn't the place to continue this. Closing thread per CoC Infraction - Advertising (http://www.cryptozoic.com/coc#Advertising).