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cgerrr
09-06-2013, 04:52 AM
The simple question:

Will players be able to use/buy/get PvP content (including PvP cards, Draft entries etc.) with PvE rewards/currencies by legitimate means? I.e. being able to acquire platinum/other PvP currencies and goods by playing PvE or with other means not related to real money or AH exchange between players.

Kingrags
09-06-2013, 04:57 AM
As far as I've understood: No.

However, I heard something about being able to get a very limited amount this way to try it out. I think Cory said something about wanting to give away one free draft or something like that.

TheMorningStar
09-06-2013, 05:00 AM
Well i think you can trade the cards you get in PvE for PvP stuff or currency that you can use to buy PvP cards

Shadowelf
09-06-2013, 05:21 AM
You can trade/sell your pve drops for platinum at auction house then use that platinum to buy boosters or other pvp cards you might need (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 33:15). Cory also works on gold sink that will be able to keep the value of gold high, so that gold will become a valuable commodity, so that you will be able to trade with the pvp stuff you want; so your time played can actually equal the other pieces of the game so that you don’t have to spend a ton of money. (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013...ss-transcript/) They even hired a professor of economics to write a report for them about platinum and gold and to figure out pricing models and inflation (http://www.twitch.tv/knightsoftheroundshow/b/430004874 check 0:55:30). In addition legendary drops in pve will be among the chasiest things in the game; so i bet you can trade them for lots of pvp stuff to fund your pvp needs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 34:25)

Xenavire
09-06-2013, 05:24 AM
Without the AH or player trading, chances are slim to none barring tutorials.

Cory was pretty clear when saying they didn't want to cheapen the PvP experience - the PvP economy needs to be healthy, and getting PvP rewards dropping in PvE would threaten that.

cgerrr
09-06-2013, 06:07 AM
Thank you, guys: really appreciate the info (Shadowelf where that +rep button?).

Though it's not what I want to hear: after investing into games where trading and AH are legal and encouraged (D3 and PoE for example) I can conclude that after a while actual gameplay is shunned in favor of trading/bidding/trying to acquire best items instead of actually playing that game. And that's not fun for me at least.

As for grinding PvE rewards and then AH those for PvP currency: by the same experience I mentioned before I can say, that inflation will not permit reasonable prices/exchange rates except for certain uber rare items, for which you need inadequate amounts of grind time.

In this game (as any other CG) I'm interested in draft mode only, thus any other activity is not that fun to me. Thus I hope this time around developers would be able to balance game economy to allow non real money draft entry for reasonable amount of PvE grind. Time will tell.

blakegrandon
09-06-2013, 06:22 AM
Though it's not what I want to hear: after investing into games where trading and AH are legal and encouraged (D3 and PoE for example) I can conclude that after a while actual gameplay is shunned in favor of trading/bidding/trying to acquire best items instead of actually playing that game. And that's not fun for me at least.

I played D3, I did not play PoE. D3 failed because the drop rates made it almost impossible to actually farm any decent items in any amount of time, which resulted in the AH being used to acquire gear and farming to acquire paragon levels/gold. I shouldn't say impossible because to me it was actually more akin to old games that required a LOT of grinding, the instant gratification nowadays is what resulted in the AH exploding in popularity....



As for grinding PvE rewards and then AH those for PvP currency: by the same experience I mentioned before I can say, that inflation will not permit reasonable prices/exchange rates except for certain uber rare items, for which you need inadequate amounts of grind time.

Inflation can be countered with appropriate gold sinks and crafting. It's a fine line to walk and I feel Cryptozoic will learn from D3's mistakes.



In this game (as any other CG) I'm interested in draft mode only, thus any other activity is not that fun to me. Thus I hope this time around developers would be able to balance game economy to allow non real money draft entry for reasonable amount of PvE grind. Time will tell.

You could PVE grind and also support Cryptozoic by buying a few drafts here and there. I can't tell if you're advocating for 100% Free to play without having to invest any time or effort.

I kind of wish Hex didn't go down the "F2P" Mentality because it "cheapens" the image of the game to some degree. Using MMORPG labels was a mistake in my opinion, I get that it makes it easier for people to "understand" PVP, PVE, what's free and so forth; but terms like F2P create expectations that people will be able to do everything in the game for Free.

Then you get into the whole debate of what a "reasonable" grind is, back in my day we would sit in Lower Guk or Butcherblock and other EQ 1 zones for DAYS farming what would be considered mediocre gear nowadays...

If you like Hex Drafting, throwing $7 a draft once or twice a week hopefully won't break your bank!

ramseytheory
09-06-2013, 07:01 AM
Thank you, guys: really appreciate the info (Shadowelf where that +rep button?).

Though it's not what I want to hear: after investing into games where trading and AH are legal and encouraged (D3 and PoE for example) I can conclude that after a while actual gameplay is shunned in favor of trading/bidding/trying to acquire best items instead of actually playing that game. And that's not fun for me at least.

As for grinding PvE rewards and then AH those for PvP currency: by the same experience I mentioned before I can say, that inflation will not permit reasonable prices/exchange rates except for certain uber rare items, for which you need inadequate amounts of grind time.

In this game (as any other CG) I'm interested in draft mode only, thus any other activity is not that fun to me. Thus I hope this time around developers would be able to balance game economy to allow non real money draft entry for reasonable amount of PvE grind. Time will tell.

For what it's worth, CZE are apparently being very careful about building in gold sinks and they've hired an actual economist as a consultant. (There's also at least one draft-based PVE dungeon, although we don't know any details.)

Rieper
09-06-2013, 07:02 AM
Though it's not what I want to hear: after investing into games where trading and AH are legal and encouraged (D3 and PoE for example) I can conclude that after a while actual gameplay is shunned in favor of trading/bidding/trying to acquire best items instead of actually playing that game. And that's not fun for me at least.

I need to point something out for this part. This is by definition how TCG work, it is the whole reason there is T in TCG. So yes for hex this is actually playing the game. Matchs, deckbuilding and collecting(trading and buying here) are the 3 parts that glue a TCG together. This part will not change in any way, because this kinda what most people want out of the game!

Price for gold to platinum will be 100% controlled by supply and demand. They didn't hire a economist for fun, so yes over years inflation will mean more gold is needed for 1 platinum, but at same time also means card prices with gold will go up. And we donīt even know anything about gold sinks yet. I do not see the problem, if they actually find a perfect solution, then they doing something even better the most IRL currencies.....

And last part kinda comes out selfish. "I only wanna do this, please change stuff to my play style"(also a thing they wonīt earn much money on)

Diesbudt
09-06-2013, 07:04 AM
I need to point something out for this part. This is by definition how TCG work, it is the whole reason there is T in TCG. So yes for hex this is actually playing the game. matchs, deckbuilding and collecting(trading and buying here) are the 3 parts that glue a TCG together. This part will not change in any way, because this kinda what most people want out of the game!

Price for gold to platinum will be 100% controlled by supply and demand. They didn't hire a economist for fun, so yes over years inflation will mean more gold is needed for 1 platinum, but at same time also means card prices with gold will go up. And we donīt even know anything about gold sinks yet. I do not see the problem, if they find a perfect solution, then they doing something even better the most IRL currencies.....
And last part kinda comes out selfish. "I only wanna do this, please change stuff to my play style"(also a thing they wonīt earn much money on)

If the bolded happens, than I feel Cryptozoic should get out of the game industry and try to get into government and make the economy of the world better. lol

And to your whole post: It kills me how people forget (see sig) the 3 main letters in what they are calling this game [TCG]. This game is supposed to fully emulate a paper trading card game, except digitally. So when Hex makes choices that follow a TCG pattern, people shouldn't be surprised or saying "I don't like that/it is unfair".

cgerrr
09-06-2013, 07:19 AM
Thanks again for the civil discussion. Btw, if my posts seem as selfish demands: I'm not demanding anything or labeling anything "unfair/not-fun" - just voicing my opinion and past experience for references. And I'm completely aware about Trading part of TCG: I'm simply not interested in it (as said before only draft matters to me).


I kind of wish Hex didn't go down the "F2P" Mentality because it "cheapens" the image of the game to some degree. Using MMORPG labels was a mistake in my opinion, I get that it makes it easier for people to "understand" PVP, PVE, what's free and so forth; but terms like F2P create expectations that people will be able to do everything in the game for Free.
That is certainly a standing out facet of the problem at hand: as they say "In for a penny, in for a pound". I.e. game labeled F2P, thus it's expected to be able to experience every aspect of the game without real money investment. And by answers in this thread players actually can do that (presumably), though many details are unclear.

I'm perfectly fine with that. All that's left to see is how well developers will implement in-game economy and ratios between fun and grind, though knowing that many are failed doing that right (including game industry giants) does not inspire.


I can't tell if you're advocating for 100% Free to play without having to invest any time or effort.
As I said earlier I want reasonable investment of time and effort. And by that I don't mean instant gratification or grind for item with 0,000000001% drop chance. I'm quite old and grinded my share at D1/D2 time. Now I want to experience things I actually like without enormous amount of grinding. And if HEX can't provide me with that: oh well, it's not my cap of tea then.

Malicus
09-06-2013, 07:19 AM
Even if it isn't available immediately there may be gold sink phantom drafts etc somewhere down the line. I definitely wouldn't rule out such a prospect.

Rieper
09-06-2013, 07:29 AM
cgerrr: i said it sounded a bit selfish, donīt worry wasnīt meant as a mean thing. But if you really are only interrest in draft then there is only option up opening up your wallet or grind gold/pve cards and trade on AH. This format is a money maker will most likely never get a pve only, other then maybe a dungeon with smaller and same draft pool for years against AI.

Donīt think you should expect gold sink phantom draft either. More likely these will be 7 platinum buy in.

Malicus
09-06-2013, 07:40 AM
...
Donīt think you should expect gold sink phantom draft either. More likely these will be 7 platinum buy in.

Why would you pay full price for a phantom draft? If they wanted to say do a phantom with full prizes them maybe say a 3 platinum buy in or something to support the prizes but not 7, and offering phantom via gold sinks without prizes wouldn't be unreasonable.

Aradon
09-06-2013, 07:42 AM
Why would you pay full price for a phantom draft? If they wanted to say do a phantom with full prizes them maybe say a 3 platinum buy in or something to support the prizes but not 7, and offering phantom via gold sinks without prizes wouldn't be unreasonable.

I think a full-price phantom draft would just have a larger payout of pack prizes, for players who prefer to 1) use their packs for drafts or 2) have packs rather than draft picks.

Diesbudt
09-06-2013, 07:44 AM
Even if it isn't available immediately there may be gold sink phantom drafts etc somewhere down the line. I definitely wouldn't rule out such a prospect.

No, the gold sinks will be all PvE related. They are serious in keeping gold and pve separate from platinum and pvp. With the link being the players and AH, because they want trading and selling to happen. That being said, they will not have PvP phantom draft for gold. However, they may have A.I. drafts for gold for PvE cards. And they already have 1 dungeon that mimics a draft against A.I with pve cards.

Also cgerrr: Just like any game, drafts will require money. It will be hard to grind enough at any reasonable pace to do this quite often. (CZE has to make money) It will be 3 packs + $1 of platinum. (just In case you didn't know.) [But if you are just interested in the drafting aspect (which in my opinion is weird, and this isn't just talking about you but everyone who just likes draft) you could sell the cards you got from the draft for some platinum as well, to quicken the amount you need for the next draft.

If you want a closer comparison, look at League of Legends (LoL). You can play for free and over a long period of time unlock the "expensive" champions and runes and such you will want to compete. Or you can buy them at a faster pace. However if my guessing is correct, I assume it would take a few lucky good drops, a very lucky amazing drop or about 3 days worth on serious playing (3-4ish hours) and some haggling on the AH to trade enough platinum for 1 pack from players, at the start because of how cheap set 1 packs will be with the massive influx. However this will go up in time as new sets are released and when the influx of packs start drying up.

Rieper
09-06-2013, 07:45 AM
Price could be lower, since no draft cards to give out. so with 3 platinum they could still do rewards. So yeah lower price is fine.

But reason for gold phamtom draft (other then one every blue moon), is pretty simpelly. It pulls people away from normal draft, so it splits community more up and also takes people away from a gametype that earns crypto more money.

Malicus
09-06-2013, 08:05 AM
Price could be lower, since no draft cards to give out. so with 3 platinum they could still do rewards. So yeah lower price is fine.

But reason for gold phamtom draft (other then one every blue moon), is pretty simpelly. It pulls people away from normal draft, so it splits community more up and also takes people away from a gametype that earns crypto more money.

This was my initial feeling when phantom was brought up previously but part of the fun of drafting is the winning and winning without prizes isn't nearly as satisfying.

With a prizeless phantom draft no PVP cards would be earned so there would effectively be no overlap just a casual format which is limited by a gold sink, it would by its nature probably be less competitive so shouldn't draw too much from the active draft pool.

I am certainly not ruling out the possibility of such a thing since it would be cool and CZE likes to do things that are that :p

Shadowelf
09-06-2013, 08:07 AM
Even if it isn't available immediately there may be gold sink phantom drafts etc somewhere down the line. I definitely wouldn't rule out such a prospect.

A quick clarification; phantom drafts won't be gold sinks, but are part of the intro tutorial into the game and their purpose is to help you and teach you how to draft (http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 check 0:37:44)

Aruken
09-06-2013, 08:24 AM
Thus I hope this time around developers would be able to balance game economy to allow non real money draft entry for reasonable amount of PvE grind. Time will tell.
I am fairly new, so sorry for the question i am going to ask. As I understand there won't be any free pvp people can't join?! Can someone break it down for me please? The website was not helping.

ossuary
09-06-2013, 08:32 AM
The PVP portion of the game is like Magic: the Gathering. You have to have cards to play. You buy packs to get cards to build decks, and compete against other players (in tournaments and whatnot). For the most part, buying the packs is the only ongoing way to get the packs of PVP cards.

It may be possible to get a VERY small one-time amount of packs by completing PVE content (to entice people to try out the other side of the game), and it may also be possible to take items / cards you receive as loot on the PVE side and sell it on the auction house for platinum (the currency which lets you buy PVP packs and pay tournament entry fees), so you could in theory play the PVP side in a limited fashion without ever spending a dime, but this would take a lot of time and not be an ideal way to have a large volume of cards available - on the whole, if you want to play PVP, you'll have to spend at least some money.

deathandtexas
09-06-2013, 08:38 AM
THE SKY IS FALLING. THE SKY IS FALLING. I love how people say things like "If CZE doesn't do X, clearly the game is just going to crumble into dust within a few months." Where X is generally "allow me to avoid ever spending money on anything." PvP is a full blown TCG - you have to either buy cards or win in tournaments to get PvP cards - that's the primary mechanism of acquiring them. Any you get through PvE is just gravy and I'm sure you will be able to get a taste of PvP cards through this route as it will wet peoples' appetites for more, leading to money to CZE.

Aruken
09-06-2013, 08:42 AM
The PVP portion of the game is like Magic: the Gathering. You have to have cards to play. You buy packs to get cards to build decks, and compete against other players (in tournaments and whatnot). For the most part, buying the packs is the only ongoing way to get the packs of PVP cards.

It may be possible to get a VERY small one-time amount of packs by completing PVE content (to entice people to try out the other side of the game), and it may also be possible to take items / cards you receive as loot on the PVE side and sell it on the auction house for platinum (the currency which lets you buy PVP packs and pay tournament entry fees), so you could in theory play the PVP side in a limited fashion without ever spending a dime, but this would take a lot of time and not be an ideal way to have a large volume of cards available - on the whole, if you want to play PVP, you'll have to spend at least some money.

Thank you for your quick answer. So as I understand it, once I have my deck I'll be able to compete in pvp freely right?
And I have an other question that might be linked to that: can you win new cards by winning in pvp?

Kilo24
09-06-2013, 08:47 AM
Thank you for your quick answer. So as I understand it, once I have my deck I'll be able to compete in pvp freely right?
And I have an other question that might be linked to that: can you win new cards by winning in pvp?
Yes, but there is a real-money (platinum) entry fee for competing.

ossuary
09-06-2013, 08:48 AM
Thank you for your quick answer. So as I understand it, once I have my deck I'll be able to compete in pvp freely right?
And I have an other question that might be linked to that: can you win new cards by winning in pvp?

We haven't gotten a ton of clarification on this, but here's what we know:

The normal "draft" tournaments are where you buy or bring 3 unopened packs of cards, pay $1 (in platinum) to enter, and then you draft the cards to build your deck, and play against the other 7 people in the tournament. Top placers (usually top 4) get extra packs as the prize.

We know almost nothing about the "constructed" format so far, except that it will exist. We don't know the exact cost to enter, or what the prizes would be. This is the format where you bring an already built deck and sideboard, to compete against others who have also brought their pre-built decks.

Both of those formats (and any other tournament styles they decide to have) are pay to enter, and have prizes for winners. You can also just play "casual" PVP against friends, guildmates, etc. without paying anything beyond acquiring your cards, but there are no prizes in casual play, just the fun of playing the game.

Aruken
09-06-2013, 08:49 AM
Yes, but there is a real-money (platinum) entry fee for competing.
so there is no free draft mode just for the fun, even if there is no rewards?

Aruken
09-06-2013, 08:51 AM
@ossuary: so no casual play with strangers possible? Also I have to ask: do we keep the cards we drafted after the tournament ended?

Xenavire
09-06-2013, 08:52 AM
so there is no free draft mode just for the fun, even if there is no rewards?

We haven't had confirmation on this. The assumption is no until someone says otherwise.

And casual play will be exactly that - no fee's, playing against random people or friends. Only tournaments and draft/sealed will have fee's.

BongoBong
09-06-2013, 09:21 AM
THE SKY IS FALLING. THE SKY IS FALLING. I love how people say things like "If CZE doesn't do X, clearly the game is just going to crumble into dust within a few months." Where X is generally "allow me to avoid ever spending money on anything." PvP is a full blown TCG - you have to either buy cards or win in tournaments to get PvP cards - that's the primary mechanism of acquiring them. Any you get through PvE is just gravy and I'm sure you will be able to get a taste of PvP cards through this route as it will wet peoples' appetites for more, leading to money to CZE.

uhhhh who has said anything close to that?

Gwaer
09-06-2013, 09:24 AM
There will be at least one PVE dungeon that is based on drafting. That'll likely be the first dungeon as well. So that will be completely free. And its supposedly a ton of fun.

Shrennan
09-06-2013, 09:28 AM
There will be at least one PVE dungeon that is based on drafting. That'll likely be the first dungeon as well. So that will be completely free. And its supposedly a ton of fun.

Did we ever find out if that dungeon was called Scrolls vs. Dinisaurs or Squirrels vs. Dinosaurs? =P

Aruken
09-06-2013, 09:43 AM
We haven't had confirmation on this. The assumption is no until someone says otherwise.

And casual play will be exactly that - no fee's, playing against random people or friends. Only tournaments and draft/sealed will have fee's.
Alright. About the draft/sealed, do we get to keep the cards after the tournament? I am expected that we won't but I have to ask, never having the chance to draft IRL.

Shrennan
09-06-2013, 09:45 AM
Alright. About the draft/sealed, do we get to keep the cards after the tournament? I am expected that we won't but I have to ask, never having the chance to draft IRL.

For PvP drafts (not the PvE draft dungeon)? Yes. You keep the cards that you drafted. It's why drafts require 3 packs + the $1 entry fee.

Same goes for sealed. Although sealed may require 6 packs + entry fee.

bwarner
09-06-2013, 09:46 AM
Alright. About the draft/sealed, do we get to keep the cards after the tournament? I am expected that we won't but I have to ask, never having the chance to draft IRL.

Yes, you get to keep the cards after. This leads to interesting decisions sometimes about whether to draft the card you want for your collection or the card that you think will help you win the draft.

Gwaer
09-06-2013, 09:49 AM
Did we ever find out if that dungeon was called Scrolls vs. Dinisaurs or Squirrels vs. Dinosaurs? =P
It's squirrels v dinosaurs.

Shrennan
09-06-2013, 09:50 AM
It's squirrels v dinosaurs.

Good. Good. I will choose squirrels!

majin
09-06-2013, 08:52 PM
Good. Good. I will choose squirrels!

and i believe this will be an arena which is far different from dungeons

zadies
09-06-2013, 08:56 PM
Enh they are considering the windego village a dungeon so I think they are using the term to mean a series of linked events with a dungeon reward at the end as opposed to one off pve card battles.

Shadowelf
09-07-2013, 06:55 AM
so there is no free draft mode just for the fun, even if there is no rewards?

phantom drafts; they are part of the intro tutorial into the game and their purpose is to help you and teach you how to draft (http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 check 0:37:44)


and i believe this will be an arena which is far different from dungeons

Indeed the dinosaurs vs squirrels dungeon sounds alot like the arena. You can choose to ally with either one , the choice will be account bound, and the races associated with it will rotate on a yearly basis

Arena: (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-geek-allstars/id446568794?ign-mpt=uo%3D4 episode 54 check 0:30:15
Draft dungeon (squirrels vs dinosaurs) http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:12:48

Gwaer
09-07-2013, 07:26 AM
Those are the same thing. Squirrels vs dinosaurs is the arena dungeon. Which is the draft dungeon.

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 04:21 AM
hi im kinda new here but i really have to say something about the whole F2P issue.

i really think CZE should think about a way to let people earn ~1 pvp bosster a week or something like that through playing the game pvp or pve.
a lot of people who hear F2P are gonna rage if they find out that they wont have the chance to get competetive through sheer time investment. this is a major fault when you try to get into the e-sports business. your game can only be an e-sport if you have the community to support it and F2P is the fastest way to get to that critical point.
so people need to think that they could get into top tier competetive gaming without spending money. and through that you will get a lot of players and eventually a lot of money.

Shadowelf
09-11-2013, 04:29 AM
i really think CZE should think about a way to let people earn ~1 pvp bosster a week or something like that through playing the game pvp or pve.


Welcome to the game/forums

Not exactly free but quite cheap; also if you decide to buy slacker backer you get 2 months of it for free

Vip access is a montly subscription (voluntary not mandatory), that will give you the option for just $4 a month to get 1 booster pack per week for free, access to a montly tournament only for subscribers (with juicy rewards), and access to a 'goldfish' feature, that will allow you to test your deck's initial draw and few draws after that (update #7 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=8)

Yoss
09-11-2013, 09:58 AM
The simple question:

Will players be able to use/buy/get PvP content (including PvP cards, Draft entries etc.) with PvE rewards/currencies by legitimate means? I.e. being able to acquire platinum/other PvP currencies and goods by playing PvE or with other means not related to real money or AH exchange between players.
Yes, but no one knows how high the money/time exchange ratio will be. Check out the currency/AH discussion for some details:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26789


We know almost nothing about the "constructed" format so far, except that it will exist. We don't know the exact cost to enter, or what the prizes would be. This is the format where you bring an already built deck and sideboard, to compete against others who have also brought their pre-built decks.
Yeah, it's all assumptions so far. Best guess is that Constructed will cost $3 to enter and will give the same prize pool as draft (8 players, 12 prize packs total). (Reason: $3 times 8 players is $24 for 12 packs, which matches the $2 per pack retail pricing.) Here's a link to the old Booster Price Analysis thread:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25592


do we keep the cards we drafted after the tournament ended?
Yes. This is why you should, in general, always open your packs through tournament play: you get a chance at the prizes in addition to keeping the cards you open. Check out nicosharp's excellent thread on making efficient use of your money:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24477

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 10:07 AM
Welcome to the game/forums

Not exactly free but quite cheap; also if you decide to buy slacker backer you get 2 months of it for free

Vip access is a montly subscription (voluntary not mandatory), that will give you the option for just $4 a month to get 1 booster pack per week for free, access to a montly tournament only for subscribers (with juicy rewards), and access to a 'goldfish' feature, that will allow you to test your deck's initial draw and few draws after that (update #7 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=8)

dont get me wrong i know its cheap and i already did the slacker backer ting because sadly i learned too late of this game. also i will be a VIP subscriber for a long time its just great value for just 4$ a month.
but the internet bein idiots, they dont care how cheap it is as long its not free. its stupid i know but thats how people in the internet behave.
im not arguing for me im arguing for the success of the game which imo could be greatly influenced by a simple thing like that.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-11-2013, 10:17 AM
While I plan to play quite a bit of PVP, I do fully support the idea that every mechanic (PVE, Dungeons, Raids, PVP, Tournaments, Drafts) in the game could be used by F2P players with enough time. Here's an example that I feel would be a big hit, maintain inclusiveness, and afford everyone with flexibility for payment:

Drafting
Costs $1 (in plat) + 3 packs
or
Costs $1 (in gold) + 3 packs

Give people the option to spend platinum they bought with real world money or to spend the gold currency they have earned by playing the game. Look at LoL's system for acquiring champions and runes. Look at WoT for acquiring tanks. With enough time, anyone can access the all the features Hex provides. This would also allow F2P players to try out PVP without having to pay or if they are younger, borrow their parent's credit card.

Yoss
09-11-2013, 10:19 AM
While I plan to play quite a bit of PVP, I do fully support the idea what everything in the game could be acquired by F2P players with enough time. The one example I and I'm sure many others would love to see is this.

Drafting
Costs $1 (in plat) + packs
or
Costs $1 (in gold) + packs

Give people the option to spend platinum they bought with real world money or to spend the gold currency they have earned by playing the game. Look at LoL's system for acquiring champions and runes. Look at WoT for acquiring tanks. With enough time, anyone can access the full system. This would also allow F2P players to try out PVP without having to pay or if they are younger, borrow their parent's credit card.
Reposting this, since it seems you missed it:

Yes [you will be able to PVE your way to PVP], but no one knows how high the money/time exchange ratio will be. Check out the currency/AH discussion for some details:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26789

The_Wine_Gnat
09-11-2013, 10:24 AM
@ Yoss

I read it when you first posted it and enjoy many of those ideas. I'm all for exchange rates too. Whatever CZE decides. However, I would still like to see the option of choosing to pay for a draft with Plat or Gold. Requiring people to go to the AH to look up the exchange rate, figure out if it's ok for the day, then exchange their gold for plat, is four steps too many to play a draft game with gold.

Add the option of paying with gold or play for drafting. Make it simple. No one wants unnecessary steps. Ask the UI thread guys.

Yoss
09-11-2013, 10:31 AM
@ Yoss

I read it when you first posted it and enjoy many of those ideas. I'm all for exchange rates too. Whatever CZE decides. However, I would still like to see the option of choosing to pay for a draft with Plat or Gold. Requiring people to go to the AH to look up the exchange rate, figure out if it's ok for the day, then exchange their gold for plat, is four steps too many to play a draft game with gold.

Add the option of paying with gold or play for drafting. Make it simple. No one wants unnecessary steps. Ask the UI thread guys.
Sorry, I couldn't tell from your post if you had seen mine or not. Post 47 clears it up nicely, thanks. I actually agree with you. AUTO-CUREX (so that one could basically use the currencies interchangeably) was part of the suggestions in the linked thread for a while, but was recently removed due to liquidity concerns. Here's a link to the post where I explained the deletion:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26789&page=32&p=290996&viewfull=1#post290996

zadies
09-11-2013, 10:46 AM
I feel that people have way too much sense of entitlement.

If the gold sinks are awesome as claimed then individuals will either trade plat or boosters directly for gold earned in the ftp system.

If the legendary equipment is as chase worthy and over the top as indicated(really depends on drop rate) then this will be tradable for plat.

You are given a starter pack and can do for free 1v1 matches with no prizes with said pack.

There is zero reason for cze to make a PvP method that involves prizes which all managed by cze tournants/Que's released have for free.

Shadowelf
09-11-2013, 10:47 AM
dont get me wrong i know its cheap and i already did the slacker backer ting because sadly i learned too late of this game. also i will be a VIP subscriber for a long time its just great value for just 4$ a month.
but the internet bein idiots, they dont care how cheap it is as long its not free. its stupid i know but thats how people in the internet behave.
im not arguing for me im arguing for the success of the game which imo could be greatly influenced by a simple thing like that.

1)Well they said that that there won't be paywalls and that pve will scale with starters http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:59:15

2)You will be able to sell your pve drops at the AH for platinum to fund your pvp needs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 0:33:15

3)pve equipment drops will be the chasiest things in the game
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:21:50

4)Cory works on a gold sink that will help gold retain its value therefore making it more desirable in the market
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/21/gencon-2013-interview-with-a-princess-transcript/

5)you can play pve in hard mode to unlock items with potentially greater value and cosmetics (cooler looking drops)
http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360 0:08:58

6)they are planning fun daily quests like phantom version of cards; you will be able to get phantom versions of cards via crafting or as a rare drop in pve, socket them to a wheel, and you get a spin of that wheel each time you login with a chance to win one of the cards that were socketed there; and those cards will be absolutely tradeable
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:39:15

7)value of packs in the game is higher that any other card game. This gives more value to vip program. Why ? well they are cheaper, give you the chance of a primal pack full of rares and legendaries, plus each pack contains a chest with chance for higher rewards like more packs, items, gold, sleeves and mercs

more on vip update #7 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=8
more on primal packs update #5 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=9
more on treasure chests http://hextcg.com/exclusives-treasure-and-mercenaries/

The_Wine_Gnat
09-11-2013, 10:53 AM
@ Shadowelf

I've been meaning to tell you this. You rock. Always appreciate your posts on every thread. Data for the win!

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-11-2013, 11:17 AM
Without reading all these pots, you will potentially be able to get PvP stuff via PvE. Simply put, farm high end items in PvE, sell for plat or boosters, then use those to get PvP cards.

Also, commons, uncommons and jank rares will likely sell for gold, given how commonplace they'll be (and in the case of jank rares, how undesired they are).

Shadowelf
09-11-2013, 12:07 PM
@ Shadowelf

I've been meaning to tell you this. You rock. Always appreciate your posts on every thread. Data for the win!

Thank you :o

Cazychel
09-11-2013, 01:04 PM
Though it's not what I want to hear: after investing into games where trading and AH are legal and encouraged (D3 and PoE for example) I can conclude that after a while actual gameplay is shunned in favor of trading/bidding/trying to acquire best items instead of actually playing that game. And that's not fun for me at least.

For D3 I'd let it stand that way, but for PoE (Path of Exile) I have to say: There's no AH (as of now) and the Engame with Maps works way better than D3s (non-existent or RMAH-based endgame), also long term playablitily and re-playablity is given with the different leagues, races, achievments and their long term plans of enhancing the game. Plus it is 100% pure F2P with an outstanding level of quality and ambition - exactly what I will expect of HEX, btw.

Yes, F2P has quite a bad reputation, because they consisted solely of cheap carbon-copy MMOs, social games and half-hearted rip-offs. People nowerdays not only have the mentality that everything should be free and they have the right so steal it (digitally), but also that those things actually offered for free are garbage or a trick to get their money or just advertisment (which, too, is a trick to get their money ;-) ).

But I think that in the future, people will accept F2P and/or crowdfunded games (like HEX and PoE) more and more to be able to be of equal quality or even better than AAA titles by EA or Blizzard.

BTT:
Probably not directly. As many have stated you can maybe sell PVE loot for Platinum and get into the PVP stuff. But I am not sure, whether that would be a good thing.
I wonder, how seperated PVP and PVE actually will be. On one side PVP would have to be pretty indipendant to have a healthy environment, on the other hand it could be really frustrating when they are completely seperated and you cannot use anything from PVP for PVE and vice-versa.

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 01:37 PM
1)Well they said that that there won't be paywalls and that pve will scale with starters [...]

first off i have to agree with The _Wine_Gnat your post really are very helpful and i really appreciate the time to filter out all those statements.

still i think farming pve and playing the auction house to get some F2P PvP going is too much/complicated for the common F2P casual gamer who you want in masses to play your game to form a big community with a lot of money spenders.

again i dont have anything against how it is right now. i realize, having played MTG a few years back, that this will be propably the cheapest TCG to play. but with the hearthstone craze going on right now i think you could optimize your "mousetrap" if you so will.
lets face it hex will be by far the more complex and in the long run fun game compared to hearthstone which looks very very casual to me and apart of the arena/draft mode has 0 appeal to me as someone who likes the MTG system. but in the end that one will have more players not just because its casual and very easy to pick up or because its popular/WoW. but also because it seems really easy to collect your cards just by playing it.

i hope you get what im trying to say. im not bashing the game in any way. its just something the devs should think about.

anyways im really looking forward to playing a decent TCG again its been like 10 years since i played MTG and i really miss the TCG feeling.

Gwaer
09-11-2013, 01:40 PM
Honestly, I'm concerned about the viability of their business model as it is. There's so much pve content that most people may just be content to never pay a dime and just play f2p PVE stuff. If enough people don't decide to switch over to pvp, there will be a major problem for this game in general. Cutting into the only place they have the opportunity to be financially viable just seems like a terrible plan.

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 01:45 PM
Honestly, I'm concerned about the viability of their business model as it is. There's so much pve content that most people may just be content to never pay a dime and just play f2p PVE stuff. If enough people don't decide to switch over to pvp, there will be a major problem for this game in general. Cutting into the only place they have the opportunity to be financially viable just seems like a terrible plan.

i think you underestimate the F2P gamer just look at Dota2, TF2 or Marvel Heroes, they are making a ton of money. and in TF2 all you buy are stupid hats.
its kinda weird but most F2P gamers will spend money if they like the product. thats my whole point. you need the mass of players and eventually they will start paying. especially with the really cheap VIP program this could turn ut to be a goldmine.

they have to stop thinking in TCG terms. they are a F2P computer game now the whole community is very different in the internet, and first of all its very competetive.

Gwaer
09-11-2013, 01:47 PM
Except these guys aren't selling hats, they're giving away all that extra cool stuff for free as part of the gameplay. The only things CZE is selling are starter decks, pvp packs, and tournament entries.

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 01:53 PM
Except these guys aren't selling hats, they're giving away all that extra cool stuff for free as part of the gameplay. The only things CZE is selling are starter decks, pvp packs, and tournament entries.

my point was you can make money with seemingly useless stuff. and if they wont sell sleeves or some kind of differend board backgrounds they really should reconsider that too :)

the thin is if a F2p player comes into this game and wants to play pvp and realizes that he cant advance without paying at all hell be gone in a blink of an eye. gamers want to be rewarded for playing thats just how computer games work.
and lets face it most people who want to play a TCG want to play PVP not PVE.

Shadowelf
09-11-2013, 02:02 PM
my point was you can make money with seemingly useless stuff. and if they wont sell sleeves or some kind of differend board backgrounds they really should reconsider that too :)


Nope; Cory has said that he is not going to nickeldime us. All that they will be selling is what Gwaer said; platinum, boosters, starters, and entry fee to tournaments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z20tC_cGSsY check 0:28:55

Actually you might want to watch this part; it summarizes what i was saying in my previous post nicely :)

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 02:08 PM
omg everytime i watch a video about this game i wannafast forward the next two weeks or so till alpha hits :D

but again ;) i think every TCG gamer will be like i was: "wtf 4 boosters a month for only 4$??? and 2$ for additional booster packs? this is rediculously cheap."
but i think the PC/F2P gamer who never played TCG's before will not be very happy about this.

Rieper
09-11-2013, 02:13 PM
its kinda weird but most F2P gamers will spend money if they like the product.

How is this weird? It makes perfect sense to me. if i had some good fun with a game, i will always go to they shop and use a bit money as a "thank you for something i could enjoy"(Hell i did this with gunghos puzzle&dragons and guild wars 2, they helped me kill alot of hours with something fun. They deserve that 10$ i used.)

Also just no, to the part about stopping with thinking in TCG terms. The game is a TCG before anything else and TCG themself more or less have always been using the same model alot of F2P games uses now. Free stuff with something RNG that gives more(and at times better stuff), but hex also has treasure chest and primal. Even more RNG then most F2P games.

I could see treasure chest be one things casuel players buy platinum for, because they really want a merchenarie(spelling?) or sleeve, since those canīt be sold or trade if i remeber right.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-11-2013, 02:14 PM
Nope; Cory has said that he is not going to nickeldime us. All that they will be selling is what Gwaer said; platinum, boosters, starters, and entry fee to tournaments


I would be thrilled if they allow players the choice to pay for Boosters, Starters, and Entry Fees with Platinum or Gold. Aka, how LoL does it. Gold users still can play and be part of the game, acquire cards, just at a slower pace than if they paid for Plat. I mean it, I REALLY hope they go this route.

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 02:18 PM
How is this weird? It makes perfect sense, if i had good fun with a game, I will always go to they shop and use a bit money as a "thank you for something i could enjoy"(Hell i did this with gunghos puzzle&dragons, they helped me kill alot of hours with something fun. They deserve that 10$ i used.)

Also just no, to the part about stopping with thinking in TCG terms. The game is a TCG before anything else and TCG themself more or less have always been using the same model alot of F2P games uses now. Free stuff with something RNG that gives more(and at times better stuff), but hex also has treasure chest and primal. Even more RNG then most F2P games.

I could see treasure chest be one things casuel players buy platinum for, because they really want a merchenarie(spelling?) or sleeve, since those canīt be sold or trade if i remeber right.

yeah that came out wrong. i also do support games if i like them and thats reasonable.
whats not so reasonable to most people is paying for something that has no direct value.

and i disagree on you disagreeing. Cory said that they want this game to go e-sports and you cant do that on the TCG crowd alone imo. so you need the pc gamers.
also mercenary or merc :)

Xenavire
09-11-2013, 02:26 PM
omg everytime i watch a video about this game i wannafast forward the next two weeks or so till alpha hits :D

but again ;) i think every TCG gamer will be like i was: "wtf 4 boosters a month for only 4$??? and 2$ for additional booster packs? this is rediculously cheap."
but i think the PC/F2P gamer who never played TCG's before will not be very happy about this.

I have been a F2P player and a TCG player, and F2P players don't mind spending money now and then, as long as they can rationalise it. TCG players will see spending the money as a bargian, and the only turn offs are likely to be that 1) They dont have physical cards, and B) They need 3G or WiFi if they want to play away from home.

But the F2P players, they need to see it as worth the money. They wont dissapear if they understand the game - only idiots get all up in arms about things like that. But I have a small example to show why I think F2P players are more likely to convert to paying players than any other MMO I know of.

Ragnarok online 2. It is a fine game, fairly recently launched (first in asia then in EU/US) but any and all purchases (at least during the launch period, things may have changed) were basically rentals. Yes, you were paying a few dollars/euros for an outfit, a mount, consumables. They might have even had weapon and armour for sale. But everything expired after a certain time, or was a limited use deal. And yet the game has a very active fanbase (and for all I know at this point, it could be completely pay to win.)

On the other hand, you have a few paid sub MMO's that offer trail periods and accounts, and those same people convert to paying players. But the sub is far more than they would pay per month on random items in a F2P game.

Long story short, people will pay for crap, but people will pay a lot more for permanence. And CZE has been clear that they will only sell packs, and cards are as permanent as you want them to be. Add in the fact that people could turn a profit by buying those PvP cards and possibly farming exp and achievements for them for foils and alternate art, and then sell them, they could invest a small amount and go 'infinite' just by working hard.


So there are a few hooks here that could turn a F2P player into a paying player. Permanence, the lure of profit, and a chance to compete. I can see even the most casual F2P player considering it.

Right, that was a long way of me saying "They might think its expensive from a F2P perspective, but they might not care."

Rieper
09-11-2013, 02:31 PM
and i disagree on you disagreeing. Cory said that they want this game to go e-sports and you cant do that on the TCG crowd alone imo. so you need the pc gamers.
also mercenary or merc :)

I know magic is not an electronic game, but in end magic is still more or less one the games that startet what e-sport is. So you last comment is a bit off if you ask me. WoWtcg also has money tournaments and i pretty sure it isnīt as big as magic's playerbase. Also TCG crowds tend to be gamers anyway, but TCG lovers should be enough for making it into a e-sport. All those casuel gamers are not gonna do anything for e-sports part actually, they might do stuff for cryptos wallet.

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 02:38 PM
I know magic is not an electronic game, but in end magic is still more or less one the games that startet what e-sport is. So you last comment is a bit off if you ask me. WoWtcg also has money tournaments and i pretty sure it isnīt as big as magic's playerbase. Also TCG crowds tend to be gamers anyway, but TCG lovers should be enough for making it into a e-sport. All those casuel gamers are not gonna do anything for e-sports part actually, they might do stuff for cryptos wallet.

well sports are financed by viewers thats also true for e-sports. so more players equals more money for the tournaments. which will encourage more players to go pro.
and ofc even the smallest game/community can start tournaments. but im talking about competing with the big ones SC2/LoL/Dota2

@Xenawire: im not saying the game will fail if they dont do it like i say, it most likely will not. im just saying they might be alienating a lot of players with their current system who would otherwise stay and be paying customers.

Shadowelf
09-11-2013, 02:39 PM
I would be thrilled if they allow players the choice to pay for Boosters, Starters, and Entry Fees with Platinum or Gold. Aka, how LoL does it. Gold users still can play and be part of the game, acquire cards, just at a slower pace than if they paid for Plat. I mean it, I REALLY hope they go this route.

Currently, you won't be able to buy stuff from their store with gold directly; but you can definately do it via the AH, by selling gold, pve drops (items, equipments, possibly phantom cards) and crafting materails for platinum, which you can then use to buy packs/starters and pay for your entry fee to tournaments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 0:33:15


A: There is Gold (in-game currency) and Platinum (premium currency).

B: You won't be able to purchase boosters with Gold through the store. Gold will be able to be spent in the Auction House to purchase cards you need from people that list items for Gold. Additionally, you'll be able to grow your collection with PvE card and gear drops in dungeons and raids.

C: Gold can be used for vendors, auction house, trades, Keep defense, and a variety of other things we're working on. The in-game store requires Platinum.

Rieper
09-11-2013, 02:57 PM
well sports are financed by viewers thats also true for e-sports. so more players equals more money for the tournaments. which will encourage more players to go pro.
and ofc even the smallest game/community can start tournaments. but im talking about competing with the big ones SC2/LoL/Dota2


No e-sports is not always sponsored by viewers, e-sport is sponsored by companies that wanna show of they brand and want improve they sales(or goodwill). As soon there is any money prizes and it is showed to some kinda viewers, this is when it is a e-sport. Size doesnīt matter(Did i just say that? ><).

And you aim way to big, hopefully crypto is not even aiming close to that. (Because aiming to high often ends in failure). Hopefully they take it slow and have something that works well with small comminuty first and then grow it slowly, if need. This is more this is more the communities job then cryptos, they just need supply tools.

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 03:07 PM
No e-sports is not always sponsored by viewers, e-sport is sponsored by companies that wanna show of they brand and want improve they sales(or goodwill). As soon there is any money prizes and it is showed to some kinda viewers, this is when it is a e-sport. Size doesnīt matter(Did i just say that? ><).

And you aim way to big, hopefully crypto is not even aiming close to that. (Because aiming to high often ends in failure). Hopefully they take it slow and have something that works well with small comminuty first and then grow it slowly, if need. This is more this is more the communities job then cryptos, they just need supply tools.

well yes aiming at viewercounts of SC2 and the like is too high you are right. to aim at a state where you can make money through tournaments directly and have other companies like esl or fansites host tournaments/leagues/cups of their own is not only reasonable but should be their target imo. and for that you need a lot of players/viewers because without them no advertising partners or sponsors will be interested in you. just look at dota2 if you want to see what a game with a lot of viewers can do. there are tons of leagues/tournament because they can host them and they actually make money out of it. getting into that place sometme in the future would be awesome wouldnt it?
also just having promotion tournaments is not e-sport if you ask me.

Shadowelf
09-11-2013, 03:19 PM
Cory and e-sports (actually sc2/lol is mentioned ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 0:35:40-0:38:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpwQQVcW-Us check 0:47:00-0:49:10

Harmonica
09-11-2013, 03:41 PM
Cory and e-sports (actually sc2/lol is mentioned ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 0:35:40-0:38:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpwQQVcW-Us check 0:47:00-0:49:10

your a fucking almanach dude :D
also i guess i have to apologize for not watching thre whole thing the first time but i just didnt have the time today they are all bookmarked though :)

but yeah just as Cory said. Hex has the potential to really break in the e-sport thing and it should, it would be perfect for that and there is a lot of money to gain from that also. but as i said you need the community to get/keep e-sports going and the whole f2p thing really helps with that. i hope theyat least wil have some prompt that teaches the new players how F2P works in this game, you know the whole farm pve -> sell stuff on AH -> get pvp cards. because it sounds very difficult and might alienate new players, thats at least my point of view. but yeah im repeating myself :)

well its 0:40 local time so im going to bed now. g'd night

Morgaln
09-11-2013, 04:07 PM
Just wanted to add my take on the matter, as I feel (and this isn't a negative remark) that maybe many people active on these forums are more accustomed with TCG's than MMO's or complex PC games in general. I'm not afraid at all that CZE might not make enough money on this game if it offers quality PvE content for free (which it will of course :P). People tend to spend their cash on games they love and enjoy playing. If Dota 2 wasn't such an F2P excellent game, I really don't think people would spend their money on buying completely worthless (as in have no effect on the game, only appearance of heroes) items in the shop. You have to understand that games that offer a skeleton of a game as F2P and bother you with paying to get a full experience are unsuccessful as they don't get along with the serious PC gamer attitude. The only games that DO manage to support that model are social (as in, Facebook) games, but that's a different topic altogether.


Regarding e-sports, viewers and a large community ARE VITAL. As someone before me correctly mentioned, companies do provide most of the cash for making tournaments profitable, but without a large population of viewers to which these companies' products are exposed to, it just wouldn't be appealing for companies and sponsors to spend money on. F2P is an important part of this as it allows potentially hundreds of thousands of people to experience the game without having to pay anything, meaning a far larger exposure in both the TCG and PC gaming fanbase. It also strikes me as almost necessary for CZE to offer Hex as F2P, as I'm sure they know very well how hesitant serious TCG players would be to spend money on a game where they're essentially buying and trading pixels and they can't have a physical card collection.