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Kami
09-06-2013, 09:32 AM
Will AIDA be restricted from use during participation in competitive events?

For example:

A player chooses their selections from boosters in a draft then druing the deck-building phase they use AIDA to 'build' their deck for them. This constitutes assisted help (i.e. crutch) for players. The obvious answer is to not allow use of AIDA in the deck building process for a draft, however...

What if a player loads up their Library in another window/account/machine/etc. and copies the cards chosen into a 'new' deck then has AIDA work its magic there? Then they proceed to clone the 'created' deck for the draft.

If the AI is particularly strong at deck-building, should we be concerned about 'cheating' in this sense? Or do you think this is a non-issue for fair tournament play?

Shrennan
09-06-2013, 09:36 AM
It's a non-issue since it's available to everyone. Also, it's better to allow it than to have the example of cheating that you mentioned. I still don't think AIDA will be able to replicate a pro-player's skill at deck building too, but I could be wrong.

Daer
09-06-2013, 09:36 AM
I think it is generally a non-issue since I don't think AIDA will be especially useful to anyone other than beginners.

Deciphered
09-06-2013, 09:39 AM
Unless they've accidentally created Skynet over there, I think that allowing AIDA during drafts would just pull up the few worst players at the bottom, but not really effect top-level play. And I think that would be for the best. If some new player doesn't come to a draft and have to sit and watch while his rookie deck explodes in a shower of poor resource allocation, then great. That's a player that might show up to play again. And like you say, you couldn't really stop determined players from using AIDA on another screen if they wanted to badly enough.

keroko
09-06-2013, 09:42 AM
you may well end up being able to spot an aida deck construct by commonalities in the priorities it uses for construction.

Its like understanding any opponent?

tbh i'd rather not face anyone who's got absolutely no idea how to build a deck and just slaps together something and then has a terrible play experience against others who seem to mystically draw and play good things all the time. It is infuriating and frustrating for the new user, who can feel their 'investment' in these cards they got to be worthless in competetive play.

player far more likely to blame system than their lack of skill - to most, they hold the subjective keys to the universe - if only other ppl would just understand etc etc.

So, using some nifty algorithms to auto-produce viable decks from cards from an available set is nice.

If CZE wanted to the system could be used to analyze current FoTM and build against that based on how often it is played etc.

they can do a great deal once you consider the recorded player actions, a great deal.

funktion
09-06-2013, 09:47 AM
If so it does take away a lot of the fun of sealed deck building.

deathandtexas
09-06-2013, 09:50 AM
Drafting and making a deck is 75% of the fun for me in a limited format, and doing it yourself is the only way to improve; however, like others have mentioned, there's really no way to prevent other people from using AIDA on another screen and the idea of other players using it doesn't really bother me.

keroko
09-06-2013, 09:53 AM
^ @funktion for the experienced user. You'd turn off auto-skill up or auto-item buy in a moba wouldn't you, maybe after you found your feet.

AIDA may well be a barrier of entry crusher:
'its your 1st ever sealed?'
'oh jesus, they want me to build a deck against competitive players in x few minutes from a restricted set I pay for in advance and have no idea what I'm getting?! how the hell do I win?!1!? I'm not paying for that, looks interesting but I don't want to fund more experienced players winning free boosters do I?'
'well, have a shot. there's others like you, lots of them. here, we'll even put you together a deck using some math based on what you get in the packs - so you'll have a fighting chance. the deck will work within the limitations of your seal card set; it'll function. and hell, people get lucky!'

is that really so bad if you as an experienced player can make your own decks from the sealed set asap, and maybe have time to compare to the AI generated best case.

to me that sounds like a great tool for use in a time constrained scenario, that explicitly aids those with troubles achieving required play state with the allocated time.

what I do not want is someone turned off the format, or worse made dissillusioned with the game by the negative play experience.

imagine a 1h, best of 3 match per round of a tourney where its over for the new player in 5 minutes each bout and then waiting about for next round. That is no fun whatsoever, and tbh its blank slots in the tourney that bulk up a prize pool. BS, fight for your winnings - even if its against people using decks made for them by an automated system.

its not like the VAST majority of players don't simply copy theorycraft of a small subset of players.

me, I ONLY play sealed competitively. I cannot afford the equations involved in constructed, and don't really want to template, ever.

Tinuvas
09-06-2013, 09:56 AM
Isn't that the point of AIDA? To assist with deckbuilding? Also, to have a decent draft deck, you need to know how to draft decent, which AIDA can't help you with. I'm not scared of AIDA-built decks. Heck, I might check with AIDA myself once in awhile to find synergistic combos I might of missed.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-06-2013, 10:06 AM
I can't see it being a problem. I mean, to police not allowing players help with deckbuilding you'd pretty much have to monitor everyone at their computers, which obviously isn't going to happen - so better to have it open to everyone, rather than restrict it for everyone and still have people using work arounds.

If they were to ever do 'physical' tournaments though, like they get everyone to LA for worlds, then sure, they could police it then so they could turn it off if they choose.

GenghisMike
09-06-2013, 10:07 AM
Anything that can assist new players I view as a good thing. Seeing as everyone can use it its not giving anyone an unfair advantage.

funktion
09-06-2013, 10:15 AM
^ @funktion for the experienced user. You'd turn off auto-skill up or auto-item buy in a moba wouldn't you, maybe after you found your feet.

Oh no... I'm not saying it would be required or even always advantageous for people to use it, just that I would never use it for sealed deck... it would take the FUN out of it for me.

Turtlewing
09-06-2013, 10:16 AM
Since all players have access to AIDA I don't see any reason to restrict the use of her in tournaments (it's not unfair if everyone has it).

Drafts in particular are more about knowing which cards to pick than building an optimal deck from a pile of random cards. Once you've made your picks even if AIDA can spit out the optimal deck, you'll still be limited by your own ability to make good draft picks. And then you need to be able to take the deck and determine how to optimally play it (Which likely means you have to be about as good at understanding the game as AIDA since you have to be able to take her deck and determine why the cards she chose were the right ones to choose).

In limited, AIDA will serve a role in the meta-game similar to strategy articles. Using them is an advantage over not using them, but you'll still be constrained by your ability to correctly play the deck, and you will probably have to make some choices before AIDA can assist you (even if it's to choose the first card in the deck and then get recommendations from there).

In constructed AIDA will serve a role similar to net-decks. I can't see any issue here that hasn't long since happened in paper TCGs.

On the whole AIDA should make deck design better. In particular she should help weaker players sort out resource curves. So on the whole she should lead to better games. I also doubt she'll actually be better than the best human players at deck building.

Miwa
09-06-2013, 11:10 AM
I'd hope that we'd get something in game to do the math, since we're going to do it out of game if we dont. Then again, for most of the common scenarios, the percentages of certain things happening are pretty known.

I can't see how AIDA would be much more than a crutch for lower tier players after there are a few sets out. Though I guess if they continuously run simulated drafts and games on a bunch of high-powered computers a neural-network-based AI could get pretty good at determining card value. Especially if fed info from real drafts with humans also. But there's a lot of poker in drafting... reading the people next to you can be as valuable as knowing card value.

Yoss
09-06-2013, 04:14 PM
It's a non-issue since it's available to everyone. Also, it's better to allow it than to have the example of cheating that you mentioned. I still don't think AIDA will be able to replicate a pro-player's skill at deck building too...
This.

Xenavire
09-06-2013, 04:46 PM
Unless Aida can make your draft picks for you, I see this as a non-issue. AIDA will not magically make a rare-drafter deck viable, nor will it help the timmies and jimmies and whatever other guys out there that can't pick cards to save their lives.

Hell, even I am probably in that situation - I never got the chance to draft in my life (lack of money hurts when drafts are incredibly rare at your hobby shop - they literally gave a few days warning to scrape together about $20 - local currency. Not easy.) Meaning I have plenty of constructed experience, but very little drafting experience.

Leingod
09-06-2013, 07:06 PM
If so it does take away a lot of the fun of sealed deck building.

Only if it's better than skilled players at building a deck, which I highly doubt it will be. Otherwise it's a small increase in challenge for the high end players and a huge jump in enjoyment for the low end players. That's a trade off I'd make almost every time.