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Purpherb
09-06-2013, 12:09 PM
One of my big problems with Duel of Champions was that you could only use each card once in a deck. It made experimenting with unique decks and builds a pain in the ass. Have they addressed this ever? With the equipment and talents, this could seriously ruin all of that if they choose to go the same route as Duel of Champions.

Kilo24
09-06-2013, 12:10 PM
Yup. You can use the same cards and equipment in as many decks as you want.

keroko
09-06-2013, 12:19 PM
consider them as play pieces you own. you will have a pool or bank of these play pieces in an overall card collection.

you may use them as you wish, as long as you obey restrictions for a format or maximum copies in a given deck etc.

explicitly, you could have 'keroko the pariah' 4x in your deck if you wanted. you'd need 4 copies of the card available to you in your pool / collection / bank of available 'play pieces'. you could then make 100 decks with the same 4x cards in it, you're only playing one deck at a time (as far as we know)

Lukezors
09-06-2013, 12:52 PM
Yup. You can use the same cards and equipment in as many decks as you want.

Thanks god I was worried about this one as it really killed Duel of the champions for me aswell

blakegrandon
09-06-2013, 02:19 PM
Am I the only one worried about market saturation? If you only need 4 of each card to build whatever deck you want, it quickly means you'll flood the AH with all leftovers.

Think about physical TCG's, people would have 12-16 copies of the same cards being used over several decks, and sure you could "de-sleeve" a deck to reuse it, or you could shell out and have multiple copies to use over the decks.

To be completely honest I wish you couldn't use the same card in multiple decks without "de-sleeving" BECAUSE it would mean Cryptozoic would probably offer more generous "drop rates", where having 4 cards being usable over all of the deck builds means they will factor in the fact that you only need 4 of a card to make any deck when it comes to drop rates.

I guess we'll see how it works at release, if cards are "too plentiful" with limited use(IE you only need 4) the market could crash really quickly.

jimmywolf
09-06-2013, 02:44 PM
Am I the only one worried about market saturation? If you only need 4 of each card to build whatever deck you want, it quickly means you'll flood the AH with all leftovers.

Think about physical TCG's, people would have 12-16 copies of the same cards being used over several decks, and sure you could "de-sleeve" a deck to reuse it, or you could shell out and have multiple copies to use over the decks.




To be completely honest I wish you couldn't use the same card in multiple decks without "de-sleeving" BECAUSE it would mean Cryptozoic would probably offer more generous "drop rates", where having 4 cards being usable over all of the deck builds means they will factor in the fact that you only need 4 of a card to make any deck when it comes to drop rates.

I guess we'll see how it works at release, if cards are "too plentiful" with limited use(IE you only need 4) the market could crash really quickly.



only issue with your fix is pre set decks saves, even if you could de sleeve to try slow the devaluing it just extra step to do what your trying stop. an if you can't save pre set decks too try add value by forcing you keep decks, that just piss of more people then encourage higher value.



card will drop in value you no matter how you try make it rare, cards will keep value if enough people want them. reminds me of steam cards, people complained when value went from 80 cents+ to average of 20 cents.

to me it worth more too have the masses able too buy an sell at reasonable price, versus elite banking on the high market price an buy an selling too keep the price up.

Shadowelf
09-06-2013, 02:50 PM
Just to officially confirm it here is the link of the vid where Cory talks about it http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 check 1:22:28

blakegrandon
09-06-2013, 03:40 PM
card will drop in value you no matter how you try make it rare, cards will keep value if enough people want them. reminds me of steam cards, people complained when value went from 80 cents+ to average of 20 cents.

to me it worth more too have the masses able too buy an sell at reasonable price, versus elite banking on the high market price an buy an selling too keep the price up.

I agree, which is why I might look into the auction house but I'm not going to hold my breath that it will hold any value over the long-term on an individual card basis.

When you have potentially millions of players all trying to sell what they have it creates a huge supply resulting in lowered prices. Of course a lot of it boils down to supply and demand, which is why in a way using the same card in multiple decks could lead to diminished demand.

I could see people getting Rng-Screwed getting the same rares over and over. It's not fun when you're paying for said rares that you then unload on the AH for a fraction of what you paid for it.

jetah
09-07-2013, 01:32 PM
Has there been any information if we can turn extra cards into crafting materials like in hearthstone? I really haven't been keeping up with Hex details and only mention because of the topic.

Shadowelf
09-07-2013, 01:48 PM
Has there been any information if we can turn extra cards into crafting materials like in hearthstone? I really haven't been keeping up with Hex details and only mention because of the topic.

Yeap definately; You earn resources by completing pve tasks or breaking cards down into materials which you can then use to craft items, pve cards and cosmetics More on crafting update #5 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=8

Also Kevin Jordan on crafting http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360 check 0:58.00 and also 1:02:20) onwards

jetah
09-07-2013, 02:46 PM
Thanks Shadowelf!

so it could be possible to get cards off the AH just to convert into crafting materials.

Banquetto
09-07-2013, 02:49 PM
To be completely honest I wish you couldn't use the same card in multiple decks without "de-sleeving" BECAUSE it would mean Cryptozoic would probably offer more generous "drop rates", where having 4 cards being usable over all of the deck builds means they will factor in the fact that you only need 4 of a card to make any deck when it comes to drop rates.

Couldn't agree less. Like the OP, I found this insufferable in MMDoC - it absolutely killed any enthusiasm I had to experiment with different decks because it was such a pain in the ass having to recreate my "main" deck afterwards.

Playing Rise of Mythos, on the other hand, which allows you to freely build a large number of decks (if there's a limit, I sure haven't hit it) out of whatever cards you have in your collection, is a joy. I'm constantly experimenting with combinations and having a great time doing it.

Would what you're suggesting help stimulate demand in the economy? Sure. A few people would collect more than four of certain cards. It would be a tiny benefit for a massive reduction in fun for everyone playing the game, though.

hex_colin
09-07-2013, 02:58 PM
Am I the only one worried about market saturation? If you only need 4 of each card to build whatever deck you want, it quickly means you'll flood the AH with all leftovers.

Think about physical TCG's, people would have 12-16 copies of the same cards being used over several decks, and sure you could "de-sleeve" a deck to reuse it, or you could shell out and have multiple copies to use over the decks.

To be completely honest I wish you couldn't use the same card in multiple decks without "de-sleeving" BECAUSE it would mean Cryptozoic would probably offer more generous "drop rates", where having 4 cards being usable over all of the deck builds means they will factor in the fact that you only need 4 of a card to make any deck when it comes to drop rates.

I guess we'll see how it works at release, if cards are "too plentiful" with limited use(IE you only need 4) the market could crash really quickly.


You're discounting the fact the cards have "history", e.g., even if you have 4 Cosmic Transmogrifier's, you might want one of the ones from the deck that just won the World Championship! Or the Jadiim that funktion won the monthly KS tournament with! It'll be interesting to see how card history, achievements, and experience impact the market. I expect that whatever impact only needed 4 of a card will have on "devaluing" the market in general will be compensated for by the "history" aspect.

Also, PVP legendaries/rares are not going to be the highest valued cards in the game. Legendary equipment will be - just watch... And people only need 1 of those each.

blakegrandon
09-07-2013, 03:00 PM
It would be a tiny benefit for a massive reduction in fun for everyone playing the game, though.

That could be said about any aspect of a game that is "tedious" or that requires spending some money.

The only thing worse than a reduction of fun is the destruction of the economy due to a lack of demand.

Think about it, if you only ever need 4 of a given card where is the incentive to crack packs to make more play sets?

I feel like there is going to be a serious shortage of cards or a serious flood of cards due to lack of demand.

If you only need 4 of a card and they make cards incredibly "rare" to the point where you're spending $100 to get a chase card, how is that "fun" compared to trading or buying from a healthy market where people are snapping up cards and thus more packs are being opened?

There's a balance between fun and economic stability, if we did whatever was most "fun" for the majority of people the game would crash pretty fast because it would remove any incentive to purchase.

zadies
09-07-2013, 03:38 PM
Things will decrease in value until the second block or whenever the boosters are rotated out. If they don't run reprints of anything once a set goes off the market you end up with supply constraints so as long as the population is growing the value will then stablalize and go up for the chase rates to run in legacy.

Gulbech
09-07-2013, 03:47 PM
Yeap definately; You earn resources by completing pve tasks or breaking cards down into materials which you can then use to craft items, pve cards and cosmetics More on crafting update #5 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=8

Also Kevin Jordan on crafting http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360 check 0:58.00 and also 1:02:20) onwards

Damn shadowelf, no matter which topic I read, and somebody have a question - you always have an official video whither the exact time.:) do you keep an overview with all interview. Their topics and time?
It is quite impressive :)

Shadowelf
09-07-2013, 03:57 PM
Damn shadowelf, no matter which topic I read, and somebody have a question - you always have an official video whither the exact time.:) do you keep an overview with all interview. Their topics and time?
It is quite impressive :)

Something like that ;) Sometimes i feel that when Alpha comes, i'll be out of job :)

HyenaNipples
09-07-2013, 04:57 PM
There are several people here arguing in favor of being forced to spend more money.

That's a new one.

hex_colin
09-07-2013, 05:06 PM
There are several people here arguing in favor of being forced to spend more money.

That's a new one.

No, I think they're actually in favor of their KS benefits/cards being worth more so that they can sell some of it off to make a profit and still play the game. ;)

blakegrandon
09-07-2013, 06:01 PM
No, I think they're actually in favor of their KS benefits/cards being worth more so that they can sell some of it off to make a profit and still play the game. ;)

True story, my Star Wars Galaxy account was at one point worth around $50,000 USD.

At the time I was in High School and it didn't dawn on me to sell my account because the game was flourishing.

Dead games make for worthless accounts. Food for thought but games are very fickle creatures and an out of control economy could lead to the game's downfall.

Don't say it never happens because it happens all the time and leads to games getting shut down.

Xenavire
09-07-2013, 06:20 PM
True story, my Star Wars Galaxy account was at one point worth around $50,000 USD.

At the time I was in High School and it didn't dawn on me to sell my account because the game was flourishing.

Dead games make for worthless accounts. Food for thought but games are very fickle creatures and an out of control economy could lead to the game's downfall.

Don't say it never happens because it happens all the time and leads to games getting shut down.

Yikes, and I thought WoW accounts being worth a couple of thousand was crazy. Sucks you missed out on that (I mean, with that much money you could have made a new account and hired someone to play it for you for months) but like you said, games are fickle, and the consumers even more so.

I wonder if they will come up with some kind of perk for having more than a playset of cards? (I have no idea what it could be, but I wouldn't object to having a perk if it was interesting, and didn't require an insane number of cards.)

HyenaNipples
09-07-2013, 07:26 PM
Oh, my mistake.

This thread has several people who want to force me to spend more money so they have the opportunity to earn money.

I always love my electronic entertainment to come with a slice of realistic capitalism, because I don't get boned hard enough in real life already.

zadies
09-07-2013, 07:57 PM
Given cze has promoted the idea the cards have an intrinsic value the point of view they are professing isn't really against the grain.
Looking at how thing behave in MTG with physical cards is not a bad thing.

Maphalux
09-07-2013, 08:06 PM
In physical MTG I didn't have more than 4 copies of a card. When I wanted to use them in a different deck, I would simply put them in. It only makes sense that CZE would let you use the cards in any deck you are playing at the time. Just like you could if it were a paper TCG. Just like M:TGO does for that matter.

zadies
09-07-2013, 08:10 PM
Depends on how you sleeve your cards a number of people may do that with the rarer chase cards but for cards bellow certain price points that varies between individuals will keep most of a deck together so it doesn't need to be completely rebuilt each time.

Ease vs cost.

chi
09-07-2013, 08:59 PM
Limited formats are enough incentive for me to crack packs.

Malicus
09-08-2013, 02:56 AM
Depends on how you sleeve your cards a number of people may do that with the rarer chase cards but for cards bellow certain price points that varies between individuals will keep most of a deck together so it doesn't need to be completely rebuilt each time.

Ease vs cost.

Thats true but forcing you to use multiple copies of non-rare cards wouldn't achieve anything really except a little frustration (hmm do I need to keep 16 copies of this or 12 copies - how many decks am I running with it again? So the issue boils down to the frustration of changing out rares between decks vs the additional value of the cards by increasing their scarcity and demand (if I have 8 copies I would sell 4 but may not if it is convenient to keep them and if I change decks often enough I may go from 4 copies to 8).

For me I think people really overestimate how many cards they are going to be acquiring. If you wanted to get a play set of all the rares you are talking about needing the results of I think 360 packs. The reality is far higher due to the lower appearance rate of legendary cards. Now not everyone is interested in having a playset - those who do not play constructed etc or simply don't play those cards but lets look at a chase legendary card and how many packs need to be opened by the community in order for you to have those (there is obviously overlap and so card values are relative the more chase rares/legendary the lower the value of each chase rare/legendary) if you say 1/8 for legendary to replace rare and I think there are 70 rares and 20 legendaries then there is only one playset available for evey 920 packs opened.

blakegrandon
09-08-2013, 05:14 AM
Oh, my mistake.

This thread has several people who want to force me to spend more money so they have the opportunity to earn money.

I always love my electronic entertainment to come with a slice of realistic capitalism, because I don't get boned hard enough in real life already.
The point-------------------------------------------------------Your head.

Without a healthy economy a trading card game doesn't exist. Without a healthy economy, Hex "does not survive" in the long term. (Disclaimer, lots of games with unhealthy economies survive for a long time chugging along)

Silly me, to think Cryptozoic is spending money on an economist for absolutely no reason... I mean, why have any gold sinks or grinds then? By your logic making you "work" for your "electronic entertainment" is barbaric.

Banquetto
09-08-2013, 05:39 AM
Without a healthy economy a trading card game doesn't exist. Without a healthy economy, Hex "does not survive" in the long term. (Disclaimer, lots of games with unhealthy economies survive for a long time chugging along)

An economy based on "either spend lots more money, or suffer irritating inconvenience swapping cards around any time you want to try out different decks" is not a healthy economy.

What you are suggesting would segment the playerbase into a few distinct groups.

1) the people willing to buy lots more cards so they can use full sets of 4 in multiple decks
2) the people unwilling to buy more cards, who would sigh and suffer the inconvenience of constantly swapping things around (and think less of the game as a result)
3) the people unwilling to buy more cards, who would abandon any interest in experimenting with different decks, and just play the same deck all the time (and think less of the game as a result)

I'm really, really sure that group 1 would be tiny and massively outnumbered by groups 2 and 3. That's not a healthy economy and not a healthy game.

blakegrandon
09-08-2013, 05:43 AM
I'm really, really sure that group 1 would be tiny and massively outnumbered by groups 2 and 3. That's not a healthy economy and not a healthy game.

Please explain how people not buying cards is healthy for the economy?

If there are three groups, and only one of them is buying cards, which one do you think stimulates the economy the most?

If you only need 4 of any card, and you have 4 of said card, you no longer need cards. Saying people that wouldn't buy more cards won't buy more cards if they need to buy more cards to build decks is kinda redundant because they weren't going to buy more cards anyways...

nekoangel
09-08-2013, 05:45 AM
My favourite part about using cards in multiple decks is i dont have to re-sleeve the dam things ever game!

Sleeving cards is the bane of life....

zadies
09-08-2013, 08:22 AM
I don't think that they will require you to have more then 4 cards but I also fell that people are underestimating what the will have to do with rarity when distributing the cards due to that decision.

Vengus
09-08-2013, 08:25 AM
My favourite part about using cards in multiple decks is i dont have to re-sleeve the dam things ever game!

Sleeving cards is the bane of life....
But but we don't know yet how the sleeve system will work in HEX! :p

HyenaNipples
09-08-2013, 10:45 AM
Know what else is bad for the game's economy? People not playing the game.

Your idea is to pointlessly increase the amount of money people need to invest to enjoy the simple act of deck creation. It is ridiculous. It's an empty tactic to string out demand for the benefit of profiteers alone. The attempts to luff it up this idea behind economic concepts is comical.

Most of the desired 'demand' is going to come from new sets and new players, not from everyone's inability to make a second blood deck because they only have 7 Murders instead of 8. A game employing such a blatantly obvious form of money-grubbing is going to push players away. So for the ability to leech a small game population for longer, you gave up the chance to offer your products to a huge population.

arastor
09-08-2013, 12:01 PM
Considering one of their big marketing goals is to show all of the advantages Hex has as a digital card game, I would think that requiring different copies of cards for different decks would seem somewhat backwards and result in bad press.

"The convenience of not having to go to the store! The freedom to have cards that physical games could never replicate! The familiar nuisance of swapping your cards between decks!"

Hmm. That last part isn't quite as catchy.

Banquetto
09-08-2013, 02:09 PM
Please explain how people not buying cards is healthy for the economy?

If there are three groups, and only one of them is buying cards, which one do you think stimulates the economy the most?

If you only need 4 of any card, and you have 4 of said card, you no longer need cards. Saying people that wouldn't buy more cards won't buy more cards if they need to buy more cards to build decks is kinda redundant because they weren't going to buy more cards anyways...

My assertion is that your idea would lead to a very small percentage of players buying more cards (because they were determined to have multiple decks with zero inconvenience and thus needed more than 4 of certain cards).

However, I believe that your idea would also lead to the great majority of players buying less cards. They still wouldn't want more than 4 of any card (because it would feel like "wasting" money), they would enjoy the game less, they would play less, they would quit sooner - they would buy less.

All this suggestion that people will get their cards and stop spending money is off-base - that's what the ongoing release of new sets is meant to handle. And I'm sure that any player who buys literally everything he wants from one set will have spent more money in the duration of that set than any company would ever budget as an average spend from one player.

Obviously we're both just putting out opinion and guesswork here, but I really don't think that you'd ever be able to convince me that your idea would make large numbers of player go "oh, OK, I'll buy more cards". I honestly believe - based on personal experience of how demoralizing that game design is - that it would mean less players spending less money each on average.

Aldazar
09-08-2013, 10:59 PM
I also think it'd be pretty silly to require you to have more than 4 of each card in order to try different deck combinations... As has been pointed out previously, all it does is create extra pointless work disassembling and reassembling decks, creating additional frustration...

Banquetto's points about the three groups of players also seem pretty self-evident to me... If you eliminate group 3, you have fewer players in the game, making it less fun for everyone else (the assumption being that a bigger playerbase is better - more diversity in opponents, easier to find a game, etc). Similarly, if you upset/piss-off group 2, they will play less, recruit less, and there will be fewer people playing... All this so that group 1 players will buy a few more cards? Doesn't seem like a worthwhile trade-off to me...

The biggest problem with your argument, Blake, is that you assume that people will get a full playset of every card they need (plus equipment) without even trying and immediately stop buying cards, thus stalling the economy. What you fail to account for is the fact that a) new players will join and need to accumulate cards b) new sets will be added, and people will need to acquire cards from the new sets, and c) people will buy cards for drafting even if they have all the full sets they need for constructed... I'm sure there are many other drivers to the economy that I haven't thought of too...

Purpherb
09-08-2013, 11:26 PM
Yea I am glad most of us seem to agree with the way the developers are going (using cards in multiple decks allowed). I also think that having very rare cards to try and collect is one of my favorite parts of tcgs and with a huge population it could over saturate the rare cards in the auction house. Especially with the amount of booster packs going to kickstarter backers, for set 1 at least. It will be cool to see how they balance this.

As for any concerns about them making less money, I think it will only force CZ to continuously pump out new cards or features which helps everyone in the long. I personally will make my larger purchases with the release of a new set of cards as I'm sure many others will too. I think set 1 will be unique due to the kickstarter rewards but if they are as far as they claim I wouldn't be surprised to see set 2 available at the actually launch. But I do really hope there are going to be a good amount of hard to acquire cards to hunt for, and not just on the pve/raids side of things.

HyenaNipples
09-08-2013, 11:47 PM
To take this topic a bit farther: Forcing people to own more cards is an arbitrary way to force purchasing, and it's similar in philosophy to not letting people trade cards in a dTCG.

I'm fairly confident that all of Hex's competitors have doomed themselves by having no trade mechanics. Even Hearthstone, the gem of the gaming world's eye at the moment, will inevitably decay once everyone gets sick of dropping stacks of cash for a random shot at super rare cards. It's silly.

Whoever made the decision to make Hearthstone rather than digitize the World of Warcraft TCG lost Blizzard millions and prepped the world for the arrival of Hex TCG.

chi
09-09-2013, 12:29 AM
Carte didn't let players use the same cards in multiple decks. And we all know what happened to Carte...
Although Carte did have a ton of other problems.