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View Full Version : Telegraphs, way to see what your opponent is doing.



Juve
09-08-2013, 01:59 AM
coz english isnt my native language, so i will use someone else to explain what i mean.

start from 4:00-4:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjzflVd6grY&feature=player_detailpage#t=241

i pretty much agree with him. the game could look a little bit less pasive when there would be something constantly moving on the screen. and ofc mindgames!
but im not sure if there's a palce for second player hand on the current gamescreen.

and btw. it's not like that i want hex to look like something else, just post this to know what you guys are thinking. I can not wait for this game

RandomWitness
09-08-2013, 11:12 AM
I liked that little UI feature in Hearthstone, but at a higher level of play I don't think it be comin into play in anyway. You can just look at your cards without mousing over them. And you can still bluff in card games that don't have that little feature, just have a handful of cards that your opponent can't see is a mind game.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-08-2013, 11:53 AM
Two of the more common way to bluff in digital games like Hex/Magic (MTGO, DotP):

1) Attacking with a creature that seems like it should get eaten alive in combat (ie. attack with a 1/1 into a 2/2). If you do this in a set with combat tricks, you're not-unlikely to have those tricks, and you have the mana available, your opponent may just let your creature through, depending on what he'd lose if he took the gamble.
2) Not responding immediately when an opponent casts a spell (works best if it's not something that isn't so good that it needs to be answered), if you're playing blue. This can bluff that you have a counterspell in hand, which your opponent may start playing around.

MoikPEI
09-08-2013, 11:56 AM
I don't have a strong desire for a feature like telegraphing. I don't believe seeing telegraphs would be reliable in helping me make any better choices. I would be ignoring it most of the time.

That said, it does make me think 'voluntary reveal' where you can choose to show your opponent a card would be nice. I remember seeing and doing that a lot in MtG. Your opponent's attack phase would be starting, and you could flash two Giant Growths at him. Some players would hesitate and wait until they have a way to deal with the cards, buying you more time to set up a better board for yourself.

ossuary
09-08-2013, 12:13 PM
I never got that, personally. Wouldn't just eating 2 of his creatures be an even better way to set up a better board position?

BongoBong
09-08-2013, 12:13 PM
I definitely like how hearthstone does that. As minor as it seems it can keep the game a bit more interesting and engaging during your opponents turn.

Zomnivore
09-08-2013, 12:21 PM
I think day9 had a decent vid talking about this a while back, getting a 'read' on w/e that thing was.

How to build that framework for understanding stimulus and creating very keyed-in game decisions that have very real quantifiable metrics for how much of a certain action you need to do in response to passive, and active signals and what not.

I guess I'm a little disappointed that that video didn't even do anything at all like that. It just said 'hey I can see him shuffle cards, thats kind of cool, I guess you can do mind games with that huh' and then its gone. No real analysis on how you could go about creating a false 'read' or w/e or how you'd even approach those sorts of deceptions.

Was not worth linking imo.

MoikPEI
09-08-2013, 12:33 PM
@ossuary, depends on if the Giant Growths would mean a win or a trade. Ex, 4/4 vs 1/1 + GIant Growth. It's not something someone does all the time, just during very close games, trying to delay until a follow-up to the board reset is drawn.

BongoBong
09-08-2013, 12:41 PM
I think day9 had a decent vid talking about this a while back, getting a 'read' on w/e that thing was.

How to build that framework for understanding stimulus and creating very keyed-in game decisions that have very real quantifiable metrics for how much of a certain action you need to do in response to passive, and active signals and what not.

I guess I'm a little disappointed that that video didn't even do anything at all like that. It just said 'hey I can see him shuffle cards, thats kind of cool, I guess you can do mind games with that huh' and then its gone. No real analysis on how you could go about creating a false 'read' or w/e or how you'd even approach those sorts of deceptions.

Was not worth linking imo.

While we would normally equate telegraphing as giving away what your move is, it seems pretty clear from the op that they just mean being able to see what the opponent is doing, and not really talking about using that information to make a read on them. The video supports what they were saying.

Zomnivore
09-08-2013, 01:00 PM
While we would normally equate telegraphing as giving away what your move is, it seems pretty clear from the op that they just mean being able to see what the opponent is doing, and not really talking about using that information to make a read on them. The video supports what they were saying.

I understand that he's saying it creates a more dynamic experience, I just got a bit bitter that it sorta glanced at how cool that/those system of conversation is/are.

Its something I learned best of all from Garry's mod and Trouble in Terrorist town. Deception is al;sdkjaskl;df;alsdijafl;skdfas;f Keyboard smashingly satisfying and absolutely enlightening.

Its consensual in context of the game, and you just get to go balls to the wall crazy with the level of how much you can do just the craziest most evil stuff in that game...and its absolutely immerseive and fun and almost on a level of nerdy that makes Role-players look normal.

The way that those deceptive systems change in the context of the game's design is really cool, and its just another way that I can add value to the medium of multiplayer experiences and just games in general as active performance art and other things.

Juve
09-08-2013, 01:03 PM
Two of the more common way to bluff in digital games like Hex/Magic (MTGO, DotP):

1) Attacking with a creature that seems like it should get eaten alive in combat (ie. attack with a 1/1 into a 2/2). If you do this in a set with combat tricks, you're not-unlikely to have those tricks, and you have the mana available, your opponent may just let your creature through, depending on what he'd lose if he took the gamble.
2) Not responding immediately when an opponent casts a spell (works best if it's not something that isn't so good that it needs to be answered), if you're playing blue. This can bluff that you have a counterspell in hand, which your opponent may start playing around.

if it comes to attak/combat trick, from what i have seen in hex so far the there's no option to attack with some creatures then after some actions (playing another creature, constant etc.) attack with rest, imo it greatly reduce the "attack trick" u could be able to push through.

maybe im wrong ? is that posible in hex ? Rage Howler (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Rage-Howler/78) +
Blood Cauldron Ritualist (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Blood-Cauldron-Ritualist/234) + Blood-Harbinger (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Blood-Harbinger/68)

or almost samething like above but with blaze elemental and Call the Grave (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Call-the-Grave/163) ofc blaze elemental need to be destroyed with something befer eot.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-08-2013, 01:57 PM
Huh? Why would you need to play other creatures or constants for this kind of combat trick?

1) I attack with Sensei of the Milky Eye (1/1)
2) My opponent blocks with, say, Boulder Brute (4/4)
3) After blockers have been declared but before combat damage is dealt, I cast Wild Growth targetting my Sensei (+4/+4, so he's now 5/5)
4) ... profit!

That's the actual line of play. Thus, attacking with Sensei into an able to block Boulder Brute (or other troop) can represent this line of play, which means you can bluff having the Wild Growth just by attacking, and potentially get an extra damage through for free.

Is it worth it? Depends on the situation. I'd say the bluff is, in most cases, not that useful, but it is there.

zadies
09-08-2013, 02:03 PM
Very cool idea but the way they designed the game was for minimal packet transfers so it doesn't eat bandwidth. I remember reading somewhere where playing on 3g would still provide the same game experience.

This idea would require a lot more bandwidth.

Juve
09-08-2013, 02:13 PM
Huh? Why would you need to play other creatures or constants for this kind of combat trick?

1) I attack with Sensei of the Milky Eye (1/1)
2) My opponent blocks with, say, Boulder Brute (4/4)
3) After blockers have been declared but before combat damage is dealt, I cast Wild Growth targetting my Sensei (+4/+4, so he's now 5/5)
4) ... profit!

That's the actual line of play. Thus, attacking with Sensei into an able to block Boulder Brute (or other troop) can represent this line of play, which means you can bluff having the Wild Growth just by attacking, and potentially get an extra damage through for free.

Is it worth it? Depends on the situation. I'd say the bluff is, in most cases, not that useful, but it is there.

first, my example show that hex will probalby have less kinds of "tricks" avilable that lets say wow tcg had.

second, im not sure if u get the "trick" in example ? actually its not trick, just attemp to push as much dmg as u can, with cards u have on board.

2 with howler 3 with the second ork then sacriface ork to buff rat to 4/4 then force opponent to ethier take 5 or let u search for second blood orc and give him speed and attack for 7.
tir
ITS just example, i dont try to make bilion dmg or force dev too change rules or something especialy that we didint saw them yet. I just want to show that with only one chance for attack, u miss some kind of tricks.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-08-2013, 02:25 PM
The gist I got from your OP was that you want to see where the opponent was moving their cursor, so that the opponent could try and bluff you, or something like that. I was demonstrating that bluffing will exist in the game even if you don't include it, and I don't think it's necessary. I mean, in a live game of Magic players don't wave their hands over their graveyard or library while their thinking, or point at individual cards in their hand while they ponder.

If I was right in my interpretation of what you meant, then your example isn't a combat trick, as you can't do it during combat. It's just card synergy, and involves no bluffing.

If I was wrong in my interpretation, then just ignore my post I guess.

Juve
09-08-2013, 02:50 PM
The gist I got from your OP was that you want to see where the opponent was moving their cursor, so that the opponent could try and bluff you, or something like that. I was demonstrating that bluffing will exist in the game even if you don't include it, and I don't think it's necessary. I mean, in a live game of Magic players don't wave their hands over their graveyard or library while their thinking, or point at individual cards in their hand while they ponder.

If I was right in my interpretation of what you meant, then your example isn't a combat trick, as you can't do it during combat. It's just card synergy, and involves no bluffing.

If I was wrong in my interpretation, then just ignore my post I guess.

my main point was exactly what the guy in video said, but then we start discuss about "trick, think like that, and i just tried to show that im a little bit unhappy.

acctualy, there are a lot of decks that force u to check gy, and cards that can do somethink with gy, at least in wow tcg, example Jonas the Red (http://www.dailymetagame.com/decklists.aspx?udt_463_param_detail=11),

as i said in the op, english inst my main language, so its hard for me to express everyting what i want to say.
i guess that telegrapsh could be just small not important think, but could add some more deep to the game. (and way to resemble that u play against real opp, not just pc :P)

Mr.Funsocks
09-08-2013, 06:48 PM
I definitely like how hearthstone does that. As minor as it seems it can keep the game a bit more interesting and engaging during your opponents turn.

I'd actually say this is the more important reason to do it. Bluffing someone is probably a little unlikely, as others have said you can just look without zooming. But it does make it seem far more like there's a person across from you, which, believe it or not, is really important in a game.