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jetah
09-09-2013, 11:08 PM
I listened to an audio track with HEX (I assume it was Dragon Con) and one of the developers said that if "you didn't get an item from that raid, you could head to the market and trade it" not a direct quote but fudging some of it.

The History of the Concern
Now, I played Neverwinter and one of the greatest problems brought up was the fact that the game could be P2W (pay to win). The idea was you could convert dollars for Zen, then Zen to Astral Diamonds to buy off the AH. After a Mod/CM/Dev said it was Pay for Convenience, I ran with it as well till after the launch of the game. We didn't have access to 'end game dungeons' so we only assumed that most/all of the gear would be bind on pickup (BOP, meaning not able to trade it). This was the assumption I went with then I was defending the P2W/F2P arguments prelaunch which was taken from my other MMO days.

After the game was live and it took only 3 days to level, we started to noticed that nearly everything was not bound to character. It wasn't bound at all. This had the community in an uproar. The main fuel was that those that were farming the last dungeon was able to sell the gear on the AH, thus confirming the P2W. I know this was stretching it.

Fast forward a few months (around 3-4 from launch), the developers stated that they will change the gear drops to be bound in future expansions.

Concern Realized??
I know that any Card Games (Collectible or Tradable) will have some type of paying to get packs. I understand that and I put that in the category with running dungeons/raid and trying to get your drop (we have a 15 chance per pack to get the cards we want).

Will there be any items/card from dungeons or raids that will be bound to the account, thus making them untradeable to other players? Can someone spend cash to buy every card and item before even playing the game from the in game market (not using 3rd party sites).

What this Topic isn't
This isn't a topic of what is or isn't pay to win, I know the definitions very between everyone. I'm not trolling either, I'm genuinely concerned about this.

@Mods - if this gets out of hand close it, delete it. Do what you must!

[edit] bah didn't spell 'almost' correctly in the title; didn't noticed till I refreshed the General Discussion page.. oh well.

noragar
09-09-2013, 11:41 PM
I don't understand the concern.

So Player A goes to a dungeon and get an item in a loot drop. Player A trades the item to Player B (for another item, for gold, for platinum, for whatever). How does it affect on you whether Player A has the item or Player B has the item? What is the effect on anyone besides Player A and Player B?

shizuyami
09-09-2013, 11:49 PM
Its a trading card game. ofcourse if you want a decent collection quickly you will have to spend some money. Especially if you are a collector who wants everything in the game. More on topic: If everything in the game is available to free players without paying a cent I dont consider a game pay to win.

There are so many ways for you to get your items/cards: trough just doing maps, trading with people or buying it with the ingame currency. This said sure spending some money makes you get equipment or cards easier but if you put in a little efford its perfectly possible to get everything you need in a reasonable amount of time.

Simply do dungeons and raids, sell the equipment and pve cards that you dont plan on using and make good trades, if you do it right soon you will be rolling in cards.

Now if you want to collect everything as a free player, including cards and equipment your not going to use you will have a much harder time to get everything, it might be near impossible even simply because of the amount of time you have to put in. But its still possible.

This all said, I dont consider this game pay to win at all because there are enough ways to get the deck what you want trough free methods and its not like paying players have access to content that you dont have access to. ( except draft mode since you need the packs but that only makes sense since its basically opening packs since you get to keep the cards.)

You can always sign up for the VIP program, it costs you almost nothing and you will get some nice bonuses out of it. It will get your collection going and if you know a little about trading you can get some nice profit!

keldrin
09-09-2013, 11:51 PM
The only bound to account items I know of are mercenaries so far.
Well, the kickstarter tier flags, Dungeon crawler, raid leader, guild leader, collector, and Pro Player.
But technically those are bound to account on account creation.

A advantage of Hex vs some of the traditional MMOs, is that a small group can't monopolize a area of a dungeon/raid, so that they are getting most of the drops.
So, yeah, there will be some pay to win in PVE. However, this doesn't impact competitive PVP, like it does in a traditional MMO. Add to this, a lot of people are hoping there will be a buyers market for PVE cards and gear. In this environment, people putting more money into the game, for convenience, a faster start, or whatever, may in fact be a good thing. Because that fifth time you get the same rare equipment drop, you'll be wishing you could sell or trade it for something you can use.
Plus, a lot of us bought ahead of time, getting us a lot of cards to work with letting us hit the ground running, in both PVP and PVE.
Someone wanting to drop some money to get a decent to good deck together so they can be competitive in PVE, doesn't hurt anyone.

My greatest concern, is there not being a market for PVE drops. That sounds far worse in my opinion.

Gwaer
09-10-2013, 12:26 AM
My greatest concern, is there not being a market for PVE drops. That sounds far worse in my opinion.

This is definitely a concern of mine as well.

Malicus
09-10-2013, 12:45 AM
The other thing you have to consider is the difference between an RPG in which you can empirically state what the best gear/talent set up is and a TCG where you can have far greater diversity in how top tier pve may be tackled.

There may come a time when a certain deck is dominant but when this happens decks which are strong against this may rise to prominence so you cannot simply buy a deck and win pvp.

The other big question though and the most important for people is their own long term win conditions. In an RPG it may be full BiS or it may be a world first well if you buy the gear you probably don't get world firsts because you bought the gear off the ones who did and if its BiS well that concept is a little simpler while at the same time being more complicated because any day some new brewer can come along and wreck your BiS deck by changing the meta.

lucedes
09-10-2013, 01:15 AM
are you complaining about being able to sell raid drops? really?

Malicus
09-10-2013, 01:25 AM
are you complaining about being able to sell raid drops? really?

Technically he is questioning the impact of people being about to BUY raid drops :)

Shadowelf
09-10-2013, 01:47 AM
Concern Realized??
I know that any Card Games (Collectible or Tradable) will have some type of paying to get packs. I understand that and I put that in the category with running dungeons/raid and trying to get your drop (we have a 15 chance per pack to get the cards we want).

Will there be any items/card from dungeons or raids that will be bound to the account, thus making them untradeable to other players? Can someone spend cash to buy every card and item before even playing the game from the in game market (not using 3rd party sites).


Ok what we know so far;

1)They have no plans for Bound on Equip or Bound to Account equipment (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/03/dragoncon-2013-interview-with-chris-woods-magical-creature/ check 0:01:50)

2)Cory said he will make sure that equipment and gold will hold and maintain a great value by;

a)introducing unique gold sinks

Interviewer: Yesterday we talked in the group about various aspects of PVE, and I’m interested in getting your comments about those. I think the first one was, you said that you had some interesting ideas about really interesting gold sinks. I want to hear your general comments about that.
Cory Jones: World of Warcraft did something interesting. They created the need to repair your stuff. Gold sinks are hyper-important. Without something that actively removes gold from the economy, you’re never going to be able to create the level of desirability that you want. Gold has to be the lubricant between all the other stuff in the game, and that lubricant is a big piece of what turns the gears to make desirability go up.
That’s super-important because when I kill a boss or whatever, and I’m waiting to see what he drops, if I don’t give a shit – and I think we saw a game in the not-so-distant pass that’s about random drops that didn’t quite catch it right, and it really makes the visceral, the excitement piece of the game disappear, which is super-problematic. So, you need ways to pull the gold out of the economy so that it still is important, and allows people to buy and sell and trade and all that stuff. The problem is, in my opinion, gold sinks that are mandatory part, they’re almost like – repairing your gear in WoW is almost a pay wall. It was. So, I don’t want to do a lot of that. I’m trying to figure out ways to not do that at all.
I don’t want to say what it is yet because it’s going to be a pretty big reveal, but I’ve built into the game a gold sink that is fun. It’s going to be something you’re gonna be able to do that is going to be super-fun and I think people are gonna love it. Maybe I’m wrong. My instincts are usually good, but I’ve been taught that I can be wrong via Kickstarter. But I think people are going to like it, and I think it actually gives you the opportunity to use gold in a way that’s super-fun and is going to pull it out of the economy because it’s something you’re gonna want to do as opposed to have to do.
I think that’s gonna keep gold very high in terms of value, which is gonna help everyone, including the people who want to play for free. Maybe I’m working against myself here, but the idea that the PBE guys gathering gold, gold may be a commodity that is valuable enough that they’re going to be able to trade it for some of the PBP cards that they want, so your time played can actually equal the other pieces of the game so that you don’t have to spend a ton of money. (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/21/gencon-2013-interview-with-a-princess-transcript/)

b)rarity of pve drops

Cory has said that equipment will be among the chasiest things in the game (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:21:50)

c)fun daily log in rewards

You will be able to get phantom versions of cards are rare pve drop or by crafting, socket them to a 'wheel', and you will be getting a spin of that wheel each time you log in, with a chance to win one of the cards socketed there. And phantom cards will be tradeable !!! (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:39:15)

d)hiring an economist

Cory said that they hired a professor of economics that used to work for a tcg company, to write a report for them about platinum and gold and to figure out pricing models and inflation (http://www.twitch.tv/knightsoftheroundshow/b/430004874 check 0:55:30)

3)As for the some people will be able to buy all stuff of the AH and have a collection day one, well this pretty much happens to every card game out there. There are people that bought Producer tier and got every card. Does this means that they are the better than you? nope. What they got with money, you can earn with time, effort and dedication. There are people out there that would choose the second option anyday you know :)

Arbiter
09-10-2013, 03:23 AM
You are actually misinterpreting why this was bad for Neverwinter but won't be an issue here. In Neverwinter, any character can earn Astral Diamonds (up to 24K a day, plus whatever they can make off the AH). So the AH was not pay to win, people would get the currency eventually, although they could just pay for more currency.

The reason this was bad was because the bind on equips were boss loot that the party rolled for, and there were initially no exclusions to the roll (so a warrior could roll on cleric gear and had just as much of a chance as a cleric as getting it). This lead to inevitable drama in group content, and made it difficult for people who didn't have regular play groups to gear up without having to spend AD. Hex, I believe, will have no rolled for loot, everyone gets their roll(s) on the loot table.

The other issue of course is that with only 12 equipment slots, it was way too easy and quick to be finished gearing if you can just AH the last few bits that you need. That, again, isn't a hassle with Hex. You will need multiple different decks and cards, to beat the various "rule breaking" dungeon and raid fights. In Neverwinter (and traditional MMOs) once you are geared, everything else is pure profit and, worse, if BoE you can just set yourself to have enough currency for the next gear level when it arrives. That is why they had to change, players who didn't pay a cent were ready to just buy their gear upgrades. In Hex, you have 350 PVE cards and 700 pieces of equipment, and while you won't need them all, various decks will need a lot of those cards, and you should always be collecting for a deck. Sure, some people won't have the drive to create more than a few decks and will just avoid the dungeons/raids that their decks do not work in, but for those that play enough there will always be things to buy. It is the best of both worlds, a player can decide to have a small collection and will still be able to compete in PVE at the highest level in the right instances, or, if they want to play a lot, the trading nature of the game means they are always meaningfully upgrading their character.

zadies
09-10-2013, 06:24 AM
The difference between a tcg and an RPG is that the items that drop from the very last raid aren't by definition better then the items you get anywhere else.

Being able to buy the latest and greatest stat stick I'm an RPG is bad it trivializes the content.

Having a cool card that is 10% of your deck is not going to trivailize the game having a bomb card does not make for an auto win in a tcg.

jetah
09-10-2013, 06:27 AM
are you complaining about being able to sell raid drops? really?

Technically he is questioning the impact of people being about to BUY raid drops :)
Pretty much what Malicus said.

don't get me wrong, I have no problem giving game developers money. I've spent ~700 in WoW over 8 years, 700 in forsaken world, 700 in Rift, ~700 in eve online, 400 in neverwinter and 1000 in HEX.

Seems all my concerns were put to rest by the replys (minus lucedes). Thanks for that. I hadn't considered that each person was getting their own loot (however in Neverwinter during the Dungeon Delves people would get their own loot from said chest).




Ok what we know so far;
d)hiring an economist

Cory said that they hired a professor of economics that used to work for a tcg company, to write a report for them about platinum and gold and to figure out pricing models and inflation (http://www.twitch.tv/knightsoftheroundshow/b/430004874 check 0:55:30)

3)As for the some people will be able to buy all stuff of the AH and have a collection day one, well this pretty much happens to every card game out there. There are people that bought Producer tier and got every card. Does this means that they are the better than you? nope. What they got with money, you can earn with time, effort and dedication. There are people out there that would choose the second option anyday you know :)

Shadow an economist is nothing compared to the hate of 1 person saying this game is p2w which could turn a whole community of potential players against it. I cannot tell you the number of threads and post going back and forth in Neverwinter. It wasn't a debate it was pure hatred and bickering.

and this (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/) is what I was listening to when I heard about the Raid drops and going to the Market/AH.

Thanks everyone! This community rox!

adding in:

The difference between a tcg and an RPG is that the items that drop from the very last raid aren't by definition better then the items you get anywhere else.

Being able to buy the latest and greatest stat stick I'm an RPG is bad it trivializes the content.

Having a cool card that is 10% of your deck is not going to trivialize the game having a bomb card does not make for an auto win in a tcg.

good point. yeah playing more RPG's, the number of slots are limited with a BiS list. I did read HEX was starting with 350+ cards +items. The only real advantage is you can nitpick what you wanted to buy.

I didn't think about the total number of deck build possibilities either. it's not like HEX has 1 helm that is BiS.

ramseytheory
09-10-2013, 06:27 AM
c)fun daily log in rewards

You will be able to get phantom versions of cards are rare pve drop or by crafting, socket them to a 'wheel', and you will be getting a spin of that wheel each time you log in, with a chance to win one of the cards socketed there. And phantom cards will be tradeable !!! (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:39:15)

As an aside, this one is definitely not a done deal - IIRC in that interview Cory basically said that if they ever implemented daily login rewards it might look something like that. It's definitely not something that's going to be available at launch.

Shadowelf
09-10-2013, 03:25 PM
The difference between a tcg and an RPG is that the items that drop from the very last raid aren't by definition better then the items you get anywhere else.

Being able to buy the latest and greatest stat stick I'm an RPG is bad it trivializes the content.

Having a cool card that is 10% of your deck is not going to trivailize the game having a bomb card does not make for an auto win in a tcg.

Yeah that's what Cory thinks too; you won't be able to trivialize that experience ( http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:48:25)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 0:12:50)



good point. yeah playing more RPG's, the number of slots are limited with a BiS list. I did read HEX was starting with 350+ cards +items. The only real advantage is you can nitpick what you wanted to buy.

I didn't think about the total number of deck build possibilities either. it's not like HEX has 1 helm that is BiS.

Actually there will be 360 pvp cards in set 1 (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/31/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pvp-design-panel/ check 0:12:38) and 300 pve cards (http://hextcg.com/game/overview/), and you can have 2 pieces of gear for every card you can get (http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:19:50). It's crazy how many combination you can uncover in the process especially if you also add gems in that equation :)


As an aside, this one is definitely not a done deal - IIRC in that interview Cory basically said that if they ever implemented daily login rewards it might look something like that. It's definitely not something that's going to be available at launch.

True should have put planning or thinking there somewhere, but you got my point ;)

Corpselocker
09-10-2013, 08:11 PM
I am confused from the OP subject title. Is Edwards James Almos (sic) his greatest concern? Fear not, he's pretty good at hunting Cylons.

jetah
09-11-2013, 05:32 PM
I am confused from the OP subject title. Is Edwards James Almos (sic) his greatest concern? Fear not, he's pretty good at hunting Cylons.

who's Edwards James?

I mispelled Almost.. didnt see that till after i refreshed the general forums... which i mentioned in the edit part of the first post.

ossuary
09-11-2013, 08:19 PM
Dude... do you even Cylon?

jetah
09-12-2013, 01:19 PM
Dude... do you even Cylon?

and what's Cylon?

Hatts
09-12-2013, 06:22 PM
I am confused from the OP subject title. Is Edwards James Almos (sic) his greatest concern? Fear not, he's pretty good at hunting Cylons.

That joke olmost worked ;)

ossuary
09-12-2013, 07:03 PM
and what's Cylon?

If you're really that confused, maybe try Google? God, what DO they teach people these days, anyway?

The_Wine_Gnat
09-12-2013, 07:17 PM
If you're really that confused, maybe try Google? God, what DO they teach people these days, anyway?

Obviously that being a dick is ok in society. Way to explain it for him.

jetah
09-12-2013, 07:17 PM
If you're really that confused, maybe try Google? God, what DO they teach people these days, anyway?

Not confused, just don't know what people are talking about. I'm not really concerned enough to research it.

ossuary
09-13-2013, 03:16 AM
Not confused, just don't know what people are talking about. I'm not really concerned enough to research it.

But enough to post twice asking someone else to do the work for you? :)

jetah
09-13-2013, 07:19 AM
But enough to post twice asking someone else to do the work for you? :)

Just being active in my thread. I don't care, but I know my thread was derailed.