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jetah
09-12-2013, 07:16 PM
How will the UI accommodate anyone with a physical handicap? ie: color blindness, incapable of using a mouse, etc.

I'm just wondering what considerations, if any, is Crypto making.

Mr.Funsocks
09-12-2013, 07:25 PM
They are working on color blindness I think, and tablets are great for mouse-incapability.

Ofiach
09-12-2013, 08:02 PM
Is there really anything they can do for not being able to use a mouse? The ability to use tablets is a bonus as stated above, but that seems like it's a hardware issue not an issue a game can fix. I have a friend who was seriously injured and he had to buy a special combination trackball/clickpad to be able to use a computer.

As for the color blindness I would imagine they are doing something about it. They wouldn't let that slip under the rug. Maybe alpha wont have a "Colorblind Mode" but 'm guessing by beta or release it will be thoroughly polished and integrated.

jetah
09-12-2013, 08:17 PM
I know there are controllers that could help. i'm just curious if the Ui will be 'controller' friendly for this.

BongoBong
09-12-2013, 08:53 PM
I know there are controllers that could help. i'm just curious if the Ui will be 'controller' friendly for this.

Not sure about this, but with the newest UI update I thought it looked like the game was being played with a controller. There was no cursor to follow and when the block and attack icons came up, the movement seemed to be a very smooth and joystick like movement.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts/584925

Ofiach
09-12-2013, 11:54 PM
The rig my friend has comes with software that integrates it into the computer just like its reading a regular mouse. As for a joystick or controller that's a good question. I really wouldn't expect them to think along those lines at the very start. Probably worth looking into or bringing up to a mod. This game is accessible to someone without fine motor control, unlike FPS's. I would expect them to want to try and make any hardware that helps people with disabilities be bug free.

Mention it to a mod or send a ticket in I suppose, I have a buddy I watch football with who had his arms mangled and didn't even think along these lines. Might be worth getting their attention so they can put it on a "To Do" list if they haven't already.

Aaric
09-13-2013, 12:15 AM
Like Ofgiach said, send a ticket in, and if you can, include the name of the software w/e special controller you have uses. I know there have been issues in the WoW MMO with their system detecting some of these special controller programs as cheats.

jetah
09-13-2013, 07:00 AM
I don't have any physical handicaps. the thought just hit me while browsing these forums.

I watched that Ui video and I couldn't even see the cursor. I thought the capture program had a problem.

Mr.Funsocks
09-13-2013, 09:02 AM
I don't imagine there'll be any cheat-detection systems in Hex. You can't really cheat... All the stuff you do and are not allowed to see is stored server-side, so you'd have to hack the server. An input system won't effect that.

I imagine anyone who has a disability that precludes the use of a mouse will have a program like JoyToKey to emulate a mouse on a controller, or whatever other thing they need. They could natively support some control schemes, but realistically, that's not particularly necessary.

Also I don't want your average player using a controller when I play against them. It's slower, and if you can use a mouse there's no reason.

jetah
09-13-2013, 09:12 AM
I don't imagine there'll be any cheat-detection systems in Hex. You can't really cheat... All the stuff you do and are not allowed to see is stored server-side, so you'd have to hack the server. An input system won't effect that.

I imagine anyone who has a disability that precludes the use of a mouse will have a program like JoyToKey to emulate a mouse on a controller, or whatever other thing they need. They could natively support some control schemes, but realistically, that's not particularly necessary.

Also I don't want your average player using a controller when I play against them. It's slower, and if you can use a mouse there's no reason.

What proof do you have that a controller (for a handicap person) is slower than a mouse? The player might be slower because of a lack of complete motor control. Until we see control setup, we can only speculate whether one is slower or faster than the other. From the UI perspective, I can see native controller support. Sure that person would have to hit the d-pad or stick more to move the cursor but it doesn't mean they'll be slower.

If FF14 can be played with a controller (on PC and ps3), I'm sure HEX can be played with one too. I've played Dungeon Defenders, and oddly enough it was faster with a controller than with a k/m. It actually pissed me off for a while when I was using the controller seeing it was faster and better.

Xenavire
09-13-2013, 09:15 AM
What proof do you have that a controller (for a handicap person) is slower than a mouse? The player might be slower because of a lack of complete motor control. Until we see control setup, we can only speculate whether one is slower or faster than the other. From the UI perspective, I can see native controller support. Sure that person would have to hit the d-pad or stick more to move the cursor but it doesn't mean they'll be slower.

If FF14 can be played with a controller (on PC and ps3), I'm sure HEX can be played with one too. I've played Dungeon Defenders, and oddly enough it was faster with a controller than with a k/m. It actually pissed me off for a while when I was using the controller seeing it was faster and better.

Having tried MTG with a controller, no, it is not faster for cardgames. It is FAR slower and very counter intuitive. The fractions of seconds you save by using a mouse very quickly add up.

For handicapped people it will vary from person to person, but I assume that whatever they normally use in place of a mouse will still be faster overall.

jetah
09-13-2013, 09:29 AM
@Xenavire - you're comparing MTG to HEX. that's like putting FF14 against WoW. yes they can both be played with controllers but FF14 was designed with controllers in mind. FF14 allows you to have up to 16 abilities usable with the controller (plus target marking) but I've only seen print screens showing the UI, I don't own a PS3. I'm not sure how you'd manage WoW with a controller. Again it's just speculation as to which will be faster in HEX. I'm willing to say the player, being faster or slower, will make more of a difference than a controller or k/m. To that effect, we can say that tablets will be far faster than k/m but that's speculation too.

We don't know if HEX is being designed for controllers but they could, if they plan on porting it to xbox/psn.

Zomnivore
09-13-2013, 09:32 AM
I think part of making hex accessible to the handicapped will be tablet support and the user interfaces with tablets allow for more innovative mechanical alternatives than normal digit use, so if you wanted to jerry-rig some tongue operated thing...you'd be liable to do that without coding.

Mathaw
09-13-2013, 09:34 AM
I think what most people mean when they say 'not with a mouse' is with a keyboard. It's pretty common from a UI accessibility perspective to allow for keyboard only input - it's also a viable alternative for your able bodied user too. I'd actually like to see that accommodated. Aside from the keyboard the input methods used by many differently abled folks would be analogous to a mouse anyway - simply controlled with a different part of the body. Allowing for game pads isn't really an accessibility consideration.

Accounting for colour blindness should be a given, as it effects 10% of the userbase in some form or another.

jetah
09-13-2013, 09:47 AM
I think what most people mean when they say 'not with a mouse' is with a keyboard. It's pretty common from a UI accessibility perspective to allow for keyboard only input - it's also a viable alternative for your able bodied user too. I'd actually like to see that accommodated. Aside from the keyboard the input methods used by many differently abled folks would be analogous to a mouse anyway - simply controlled with a different part of the body. Allowing for game pads isn't really an accessibility consideration.

Accounting for colour blindness should be a given, as it effects 10% of the userbase in some form or another.

There's a difference between game pad (ie Logitech G13 (http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/g13-advanced-gameboard) or Razer Orbweaver (http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-keyboards-keypads/razer-orbweaver/)) and a controller like Xbox or PS.

Xenavire
09-13-2013, 10:11 AM
@Xenavire - you're comparing MTG to HEX. that's like putting FF14 against WoW. yes they can both be played with controllers but FF14 was designed with controllers in mind. FF14 allows you to have up to 16 abilities usable with the controller (plus target marking) but I've only seen print screens showing the UI, I don't own a PS3. I'm not sure how you'd manage WoW with a controller. Again it's just speculation as to which will be faster in HEX. I'm willing to say the player, being faster or slower, will make more of a difference than a controller or k/m. To that effect, we can say that tablets will be far faster than k/m but that's speculation too.

We don't know if HEX is being designed for controllers but they could, if they plan on porting it to xbox/psn.

I dont think you understand - MTG was designed to be played with a controler and was super slow and horrible. Even if Hex tries to do the same, it has already been proven to be a good deal slower to navigate through cards and abilities than it is to with a mouse.

There is no argument there - MTG was on Xbox and PS3, and was horribly slow. It isn't like comparing WoW and FF14 at all.

zadies
09-13-2013, 10:48 AM
I think they believe you mean mtgo as opposed to dotp.

Xenavire
09-13-2013, 10:56 AM
Ah, yeah that might be the issue. But I figured the logical thing would be to think about the one that had native controller support.

But yes, DotP was horribly slow with a controller.

Miwa
09-13-2013, 03:53 PM
Pretty much requires Unity to support UIAutomation, and for CZE to export interfaces to support it. Not a trivial undertaking if base Unity support isn't there since the UIAutomation provider interface isn't trivial...

Unless you don't mean supporting screen readers and all sorts of other accessibility hardware...

Mr.Funsocks
09-13-2013, 09:16 PM
What proof do you have that a controller (for a handicap person) is slower than a mouse?

I meant for an able-bodied person :-P Controllers are slower/worse in most genres than Kb/mouse, and I don't wanna wait for a stubborn controller user to play. Obviously those who have disabilities get to use whatever they need to use :-P

Ofiach
09-13-2013, 09:55 PM
I don't think there is a plausible way to police that though. I for one wouldn't want to be the one on CZE's staff going to check peoples disability claims to give them permission to use a controller, that's a bit..... well dumb. I would just say add support and we'll just have to suffer through a few extra seconds for the controller faithful to make their turns.

I asked my buddy about this and he said most rigs emulate kb/m inputs so there doesn't have to be alot of software work on a game developers end. According to him the rig he uses doesn't have any trouble with any of the games he plays.

Also anything made by the MTG crew for online gaming is an absolute shit show. Terrible coding, bad GUI, and servers based in someones basement. Somehow MTGO lags worse than most persistent world RPG's and SolForge(made by a crew from MTGO) is also a lag/crash fest. I seriously doubt CZE is as inept as they are, I would expect controller interfaces to be much smoother if CZE decides to support them.

I don't think it's fair comparing WotC's obvious ineptitude for anything beyond creating a solid card game and CZE's potential. This game is being started in a digital format so ALOT more polish will be given to the GUI and controller support.

jetah
09-13-2013, 10:18 PM
I don't think it's fair comparing WotC's obvious ineptitude for anything beyond creating a solid card game and CZE's potential. This game is being started in a digital format so A LOT more polish will be given to the GUI and controller support.

This is why I said they are speculating as to which is faster. Regardless of which is faster both sides has a certain amount of time to play in. There are some players that will take the full time aloted.

Again, if CZE develops the UI/input for controller support, I don't see how it'd be slower.

Mr.Funsocks
09-13-2013, 11:42 PM
I don't think there is a plausible way to police that though.

Why would you police that? I'm just saying don't put in a well-advertised, native support that will encourage people to use it over a mouse. There are plenty of ways to emulate kb/m, they're set.

Ofiach
09-14-2013, 12:00 AM
I guess that's true enough Funsocks, I would rather just see it supported and wait a few extra seconds instead of there being an artificial block for other people to have to work around.

Equality and all that jazz! :P Just let everyone play how they want to play and only modify it if it becomes an issue. Which 4-5 seconds per turn shouldn't become.

There are going to be people taking a minute per turn even in casual just because that's how some people play. I highly doubt good controller support will cause notable delays. I still say there should be a reputation system for people being ridiculous about slow play but that's another discussion in another thread.

Xenavire
09-14-2013, 03:09 AM
There will be noticeable delays unless they stumble across the single most perfect controller setup ever.

If they make one button press to scroll through your cards, if they make it do one card at a time, it will take forever. If they make it so you can hold it to scroll faster, there is a good chance you will scroll past things. One button press to play will lead to hundreds of mistaken plays, two button presses slows down the game.

A button press to zoom in, another to zoom out, another button to target... Every little action possible will take longer, and it will snowball in terms of time. And the more inexperienced the player, the longer it will take.

People will take whatever they perceive to be the easiest, so if you do give controller support, I am sure you will see a lot of people using them even if its slow and annoying.

So I would rather there was a small barrier to deter those kinds of people. People with a handicap will already be familiar with overcoming that barrier, and may have better options than controllers.

Ofiach
09-14-2013, 03:34 AM
There will be noticeable delays unless they stumble across the single most perfect controller setup ever.

If they make one button press to scroll through your cards, if they make it do one card at a time, it will take forever. If they make it so you can hold it to scroll faster, there is a good chance you will scroll past things. One button press to play will lead to hundreds of mistaken plays, two button presses slows down the game.

A button press to zoom in, another to zoom out, another button to target... Every little action possible will take longer, and it will snowball in terms of time. And the more inexperienced the player, the longer it will take.

People will take whatever they perceive to be the easiest, so if you do give controller support, I am sure you will see a lot of people using them even if its slow and annoying.

So I would rather there was a small barrier to deter those kinds of people. People with a handicap will already be familiar with overcoming that barrier, and may have better options than controllers.

You're being a tad limited in your view of how controller support can be implemented.

There are games that use the joysticks on an xbox/ps controller and use them like the inputs from a trackball. So instead of needing buttons to click through each card it moves the selection icon just as a mouse does. For the inputs from the controller you just use two of the buttons on the controller as LMB/RMB. The depth of depression on the joystick can alter the speed the selection icon moves. It really isn't a hard concept it's just about whether or not they want to implement it, or even thought about it TBH.

That is good controller support. It's a fact that other games for PC have used this concept and CZE is entirely capable of doing so also.

This is going to sound a little harsh but so be it. Your last sentence pisses me off. Is your time really so precious that someone who was born disabled or got their arms destroyed in the military should be forced to go through extra hoops just so you don't have to wait an extra couple seconds?? That is absolute horseshit, those people have to deal with enough bullshit in real life, they shouldn't be forced to go through bullshit in something that is meant as entertainment. That isn't meant as a personal attack on you, but you should really think beyond your own minor discomforts on a subject like this.

Xenavire
09-14-2013, 04:05 AM
You're being a tad limited in your view of how controller support can be implemented.

There are games that use the joysticks on an xbox/ps controller and use them like the inputs from a trackball. So instead of needing buttons to click through each card it moves the selection icon just as a mouse does. For the inputs from the controller you just use two of the buttons on the controller as LMB/RMB. The depth of depression on the joystick can alter the speed the selection icon moves. It really isn't a hard concept it's just about whether or not they want to implement it, or even thought about it TBH.

That is good controller support. It's a fact that other games for PC have used this concept and CZE is entirely capable of doing so also.

This is going to sound a little harsh but so be it. Your last sentence pisses me off. Is your time really so precious that someone who was born disabled or got their arms destroyed in the military should be forced to go through extra hoops just so you don't have to wait an extra couple seconds?? That is absolute horseshit, those people have to deal with enough bullshit in real life, they shouldn't be forced to go through bullshit in something that is meant as entertainment. That isn't meant as a personal attack on you, but you should really think beyond your own minor discomforts on a subject like this.

You know what is horseshit? You don't know jack about being handicapped. I was born with a condition that affects my motor skills, and I learned to manage it - just like most other handicapped people. What you are doing is looking down on them, treating them as lesser people, when they are not as pathetic and frail as you seem to think!

If a handicapped person is playing a lot of MMO's, they will have figured out a solution for themselves, and know the limitations of that solution. If they need controllers, there are many programs that allow you to map a controller like a mouse.

I don't think CZE needs to do this, but if they did offer it sometime, that's good. But if they don't get it just right, there will be hundreds of people out there wasting peoples time, for no reason other than being too lazy to use a mouse and keyboard.

Ofiach
09-14-2013, 04:28 AM
You've adapted, you've overcome a natural disability, that's great. What about people who can only use control sticks or something similar? In game support for those would be a great step by CZE. Not everyone was born with a disability, some got cut to ribbons in the military. They don't need anymore horseshit than they already get.

You're right I don't know about being handicapped, I just spent 2 of the last 3 years recovering from surgeries fixing damage done to my body in the military. I was lucky and came out with all ten fingers and ten toes I only needed reconstructive surgeries. Some of my friends lost the use of arms and legs or got them completely blown off and anyone who says they should be forced to go through extra hoops is full of themselves.

Like I said you've adapted and that's good for you. What about the people who haven't? Just because you did doesn't mean everyone else can. Some people don't have hands or have one or two fingers left on one hand and severe nerve damage. What those people deserve to be forced into extra work because you cant wait a few extra seconds for them to play their hand? That's myopic and self centered.

I'll never compare myself with someone who was born disabled, I can't know what that's like. I'll never look down on someone like that either because I know how mentally fucked I am after every surgery. I can't imagine not being able to have the goal of eventual recovery at the end of it.

zadies
09-14-2013, 05:27 AM
I think what xenaavire is saying is that the readily available mimicking solutions have been in development far longer then this game has even been a pipe dream so it is very hard to imagine that the native controller support they might implement would be better then those tools.

Really the argument that they should place it in natively just reads that people are using handicapped individuals as a cover to have poor controller support added to the game becuase a non-handicaped individual wants to use a controller easily when someone who really is severely disabled would already have the needed tools at their disposal that have been tested and had years of development as input devices.

Xenavire
09-14-2013, 05:39 AM
The level and kind of handicap varies, and I didn't say people couldn't use controllers. My point is there are already methods available. If they make it baseline, lazy people will abuse it (as they always do).

People who have been handicapped later in life still have access to the same tools, but I understand if it is harder for them to adapt. But if you tried DotP, you can see how using a controller poorly makes the game unbearable, and why it is a bullet that needs to be dodged. I don't mind particularly which way the bullet is dodged, but if the controller ends up similar to DotP, it isn't even going to be enjoyable to play.

Ofiach
09-14-2013, 05:52 AM
I don't mind dealing with a few people using a controller if it makes the game more accessible, this is why a reputation system should be put in. From personal experience the "lazy" option is a mouse, using a controller is the hard way to do things. If you're going to say people are going to be "lazy" they would fall back on the easiest interface available, that's a mouse not a controller in a point and click game.

Also MTGO is IMO a terrible experience. It lags, it crashes, it randomly plays cards you weren't even touching. I never played DotP so I can't comment on that, but from experience with WotC's digital expansions I can say they put sub par product out there and fall back on a solid card game. Once again I say it is unfair to compare WotC's obvious ineptitude with CZE's potential.

From what I understand Cory Jones isn't going to let any aspect of this game be sub par, so getting it to their attention now will allow them time to get it polished by beta/launch.

Avedecus
09-14-2013, 06:52 AM
I don't really follow the issue with "people might take more time with controllers". Unless my memory is failing me, both players have a limited amount of time they are allowed to spend in total during the game. And that would be the hurdle for anyone using a controller to deal with, not yours. You don't get to go into a game and make people play on your schedule.

zadies
09-14-2013, 09:15 AM
I'm fine with people asking for controller support don't ask for controller support because handicapped people "need" it though. Given the varying levels of disability those who are disabled will have already found and adapted to the tools needed to allow them to play the games they want to play.

I mean the severely disabled would use a program like switchXS or eye readers which do exist, and other programs that have been designed from the ground up to utilize input methods that will mimic keyboard/mouse inputs. Hiding behind the disabled and asking for controller support is pitiful.

The methods may be harder to implement then using the support natively but they are done better then any attempt to slipshod it onto the game could possibly be.

If you want controller support for the game great but don't try to mask it behind a usability for the disabled argument.

Things like adapting the cards for the color blind are things that the game design team should be looking at in regards to a disablity.

Xenavire
09-14-2013, 09:25 AM
The issue is controller people taking time they don't need to take, and affects both sides. There is a significant difference between someone thinking about making a move, and someone making a move that should take 3 seconds, and instead takes 10.

If you ever face a combo or control deck, and the person is using a controller, kiss your time goodbye, because it will easily be twice as long as normal.

Gwaer
09-14-2013, 09:37 AM
Kiss their time goodbye. It'll be their clock ticking down, not yours.

Hopefully very soon after launch they'll have options to set match length times so that you can set it to 15min per side or less. But you should always just plan for a game to take the entire allotted time.

jetah
09-14-2013, 11:09 AM
@Xenavire - You're still speculating that controllers, with native support, would be much slower than k/m. Unless you've had access to the HEX Alpha (not any other digital card game) you can't stat for fact that a controller is slower.

Each side will have, what, 30 minutes to play their hand per turn. I understand most people will not need 30 minutes. I have only played Hearthstone beta which is the extent of my digital card game experience (actually of my TCC experience). Yes, I will take longer than someone who's played MtG for 5+ years.

@Gwaer - I'd like to see the option to change the turn limit. I know at first I'll be using all the time I need while I learn HEX (and TCC in general). But as I get better, I'd like to option to changing it. (kind of reminds me of how you can put a no rush timer in SupCom or any other RTS.)


This thread isn't about wanting controller support hiding behind 'handicap accessible'. I, personally, hate controllers. I've always said that if I wanted to use a controller, I'd have a console. I only used controller support as an example. I'm curious if CZE is thinking about handicap individuals. I know they couldn't account for all types of input. Yes, some people would have to emulate things where others' wouldn't.

zadies
09-14-2013, 11:31 AM
What it was originally and what it had become in the discussion between Ofiach and Avedecus trying to defend them to Xenavire are two different things.

Things like color blindness is something that designers should look at.

Getting into a time use argument when talking about those with disabilities is also pointless because it has devolved into what a normal person will do taking a turn not how much the usability is improved from the perspective of the disabled person for whom using the kb/mouse is not an option.

jetah
09-14-2013, 11:51 AM
What it was originally and what it had become in the discussion between Ofiach and Avedecus trying to defend them to Xenavire are two different things.

Things like color blindness is something that designers should look at.

Getting into a time use argument when talking about those with disabilities is also pointless because it has devolved into what a normal person will do taking a turn not how much the usability is improved from the perspective of the disabled person for whom using the kb/mouse is not an option.

Tis true.

Shadowelf
09-14-2013, 01:30 PM
Hopefully very soon after launch they'll have options to set match length times so that you can set it to 15min per side or less. But you should always just plan for a game to take the entire allotted time.



@Gwaer - I'd like to see the option to change the turn limit. I know at first I'll be using all the time I need while I learn HEX (and TCC in general). But as I get better, I'd like to option to changing it. (kind of reminds me of how you can put a no rush timer in SupCom or any other RTS.)


This is what i could find about timers;


The timers will start with a specific amount of time (sometimes that you can set on game creation) then count down. For the most part, there won't be timers in dungeons as you can leave a dungeon and then come back and pick up where you left off. There are some dungeons that put you on a timer, however. Raids will have timers to prevent issues. There will also be activity and disconnect timers that run in concert with the normal timer.


Activity timer clocks the amount of time a player has to make an action when they have priority. If they don't make an action after an amount of time they get a pop up warning, if they still don't make an action after an amount of time they lose the match. Disconnect timer is similar, but it will give more time to the player, and notify their opponent of how much time has elapsed.


You'll be able to set timer length (or not have one) in casual 1v1 games. Additionally, most dungeons won't have timers (who cares if you make the AI wait). However, some dungeons will have a timer as part of the dungeon mechanic. But that is the exception.

zadies
09-14-2013, 06:07 PM
Never really had issues with activity timers when someone from the servers point of view is 'playing' if someone wants to play the game at a speed they deem apporiate more power to them.

Ofiach
09-14-2013, 06:46 PM
You guys try to twist arguments around so hard it's amazing.

1) The game should have native support for as much handicapped friendly hardware as possible. Adding any walls in that process is completely stupid.

2) They should also support controllers, I mean why not? I understand the "PC gaming elite" hate everything console but some people don't and should be allowed to use whatever the hell they want.

See two different points. You took what was a discussion about native support for alternate controls to help disabled people, and turned it into an argument against xbox/ps3 controllers. So of course I fell right for it and answered that those should have native support also. Your complete hate of everything console is blinding you to how easily it could be implemented. As for the native support of rigs for the handicapped, that shouldn't even be an argument it should be done plain and simple. I'm sure they can call the companies that make these and bug test them enough to offer an experience where there are few if any bugs once the game hits release.

Also for the third time, stating that controllers can't be implemented fluidly in a TCG based off WotC's ineptitude is absolutely wrong.

Xenavire
09-14-2013, 07:34 PM
It is you who is twisting. I enjoy controller play, depending on the game. I hold no special hatred towards controllers.

However, we have proof showing controllers do not mix well with MTG styled games.

And no-one said other avenues should be blocked in terms of handicap support, they are only saying it should be done well, or not at all (because options already exist.)

And you can claim WotC are terrible all day and no-one will argue, however, they are the only TCG makers to have integrated controllers into a digital copy of a card game. And it was fairly bad.

I do have an exception to add though, even though it doesn't fit the criteria properly, but Yugioh for PSP/DS both used 'controllers', but they also had a UI with finite space to work with (not to mention the DS used touch controls as well to bridge the gap between controller and mouse style precision).

Yugioh was bearable, but it was bearable because of the finite nature of the game. 5 creatures, 5 spells/traps, hand and fusion/field/deck/graveyard zones, and removed from play. That is a total of 16 zones, very easy to navigate in comparison with the near infinite nature of MTG or Hex.

It can be done, sure, but for all we know it could take a miracle to make it user friendly. WotC may not be as inept as people think (although chances are that they are more inept than we think), but without proof you can hardly claim this will just fall into place. Do you want to risk Hex having shoddy controller support just because it isn't possible to do better?

If they are going to support something, it should be a guaranteed win for everyone, not just those you think deserve it.

Ofiach
09-14-2013, 10:15 PM
My 2 points again.

1) any hardware that helps someone who is disabled should be supported and tested and be as bug free as possible by launch.

2) Controllers should also be supported.

I got caught up in arguing semantic bullshit so yeah you're twisting caught me up. I'm a little too easy to bait with stupid arguments. Also if you've spent any time on MTGO you should know everything there is bad. Seriously they got someone they could pay in Cheetos and 40's to design the online game.

There is absolutely no proof that controllers are incompatible with TCG's. One or two poorly developed games is not "proof." E.G. If one bad game constituted proof of something then having a movable camera is a bad idea because that one game did it wrong and the camera gets stuck in walls! That isn't proof. There is much more proof that a controller stick can be used to manipulate the mouse the same as a trackball can with minimal native support. I can compile a list for you once I get home of all the games in my Steam library that use this method.

There have been games where controller sticks have been used to move the pointer around. It isn't that hard to imagine a similar principle in a TCG. Just because Yugioh or digimon didn't doesn't mean CZE won't. One of the earlier pokemon card games on the Gameboy, Color? DS? its been a while, had a system where depressing the D-pad moved a pointer around the screen. You telling me the can't do the same with a controllers sticks?

This is where a reputation system would come in though, you can see who's a "slow" player who's "fast" etc etc and decide if you want to play them or not. It solves the "He's taking 5 more seconds than he should because hes a controller noob" issue.

Xenavire
09-15-2013, 03:24 AM
There were only ever 2 Pokemon TCG games, both on the GBC. Both navigated purely by menu, no pointers. I do not know any TCG on a console or handheld that uses a free pointer controlled by dpad or a stick - even the PSP, which should have been perfect by your arguments does not have a game like that to my knowledge.

Just because non-tcg games can and have done it does not mean it is automatically going to work for Hex. If you played DotP for any decent length of time you would know it is difficult at times to target even with a mouse due to the clutter. How much worse would it be with a controller, which is far less accurate?

Ofiach
09-15-2013, 03:56 AM
I never played DotP but I know it's a MTG project, I really have no faith in them doing anything right in the digital side of things. In MTGO the game lags so bad any control input feels wonky. Any reference to those games falls under the category of "probably done horribly" in my mind.

You seem to be of the mind that if it wasn't done before in a TCG it can't be done, that's wrong. I've never seen "double back" cards in a TCG but it's a cool idea and looks easy enough to use.

If other games can use joystick input to move a mouse around the screen just fine why cant a TCG? I use joysticks in some of the Freespace mods,that free software can make the joystick input move through the menus without an issue. Why then is it so hard to do the same in a TCG. Controller v mouse in relation to moving the clicker around is just joystick v trackball inputs.

This is a moot point in relation to handicapped accessibility though. If someone is disabled or injured so badly they can't use a mouse I highly doubt they can use an Xbox/PS controller.

Xenavire
09-15-2013, 06:00 AM
I am not saying it can't be done, I am just saying there may be a reason it hasn't been done before. DotP would have been the perfect place to try, after all.

There may be some technical issues we are unaware of, or it might be too resource consuming to be worth adding, but the free pointer using a control has not been used in any dTCG that I know of, even with plenty of chances.

And again, there are already programs available that do the same and probably with more accuracy.

As for whether handicapped people could or would benefit from a controller, that would be down to the individual.

So, you are wrong on several points. I do think, if it was done well, it could be a nice feature, but I don't think it is currently possible, at least not as part of the client, or it would have been done. Maybe CZE has found a workaround, but I wouldn't bank on it, just because they have better options natively available.

They have keyboard and mouse, and they have tablets. If it impossible for you to use either, it is not unreasonable to assume that you have found an alternative specific to your particular issue.