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View Full Version : Ebonrock, post-banning?



vulture27
09-14-2013, 01:04 PM
I think it is safe to say that the Ebonrock + Technical Genius deck in some form is going to be degenerate and trivialize the PvE in this game. If you don't know what I mean, here are three versions of the deck;

http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/deck=350
http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/deck=326
http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/deck=170

Getting to my question then, post nerf/banning (Technical Genius being the easiest target to dismantle the deck) is there another deck that can make use of Ebonrock's powerful abilities? So far I have the following alternatives, but I am not really satisfied with either. I assume I may be missing a key card or equipment to base a deck around.

http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/deck=443
- Assume Tech Genius is not banned, flood the field, dig for Hollowed Field, win with a swarm of 1/1 fliers if the computer tries to attack into your worker bots.

http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/deck=448
- Assume Tech Genius is banned, similar to above, easier access to buff spells but no ability to dig through your deck to find a key card.

Falaris
09-14-2013, 01:58 PM
Not saying the combo is not overpowered, it definitely has the potential to be. However, these decks need more than 20 resources in them.

Kami
09-14-2013, 02:19 PM
Don't also forget that the PvE AI may have advantages we don't. We already know they'll have AI only cards, it's not that much of a leap to assume they may have additional bonuses as well.

Shadowelf
09-14-2013, 02:46 PM
Don't also forget that the PvE AI may have advantages we don't. We already know they'll have AI only cards, it's not that much of a leap to assume they may have additional bonuses as well.

This; we can't call for pre-bans before we even had a taste of pve experience; i believe they know what they are doing. Cory has said multiple times that we won't be able to trivialize pve. Also mercs will be nerfed, not banned (http://hextcg.com/exclusives-treasure-and-mercenaries/)

Cory Jones on pve balance https://www.youtube.com/wI think whaatch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 0:11:23

Aradon
09-14-2013, 04:25 PM
They did already nerf Technical Genius. I think it's safe enough at this point. Being the author of one of the three decks, I can say that at the very least, my deck is correct at 20 resources. I wouldn't be surprised if the others have been tested for their resources as well.

If we're not abusing it completely though, I'd say Pack Raptor with Peek is a pretty decent idea. I'd also want to include a Volcannon (or some Overrun variant) in a lot of Ebonrock Decks. He can make *so* many artifact creatures.

vulture27
09-14-2013, 06:08 PM
Not saying the combo is not overpowered, it definitely has the potential to be. However, these decks need more than 20 resources in them.

Having over 20 resources is completely unnecessary in the current combo variants. After you play your second resource there is rarely a reason to play another in my testing.

@Shadowelf; Not really calling for a ban, just not expecting this to make it to live. I figure it cant hurt to be ahead of the curve.

@Kami; Agreed, the AI will have a variety of advantages we can't predict. However, we have to assume that the AI can be defeated with a powerful non-degenerate deck, and so far no other deck seems even close in power level to the Ebonrock/Tech Genius. I would hope that turn 2 or 3 wins do not become the standard for a viable PvE deck.

@Arabon; I cant decide if I like Volcannon or not. It certainly is a powerful effect, but I would rather find a win condition requiring less then 5 cost.

Mindless
09-15-2013, 08:42 AM
What if the enemy don't have normal rules? Its possible that pve will be trivilized regardless of how much they work on it but as said we have not seen it yet.

Shadowelf
09-15-2013, 02:11 PM
What if the enemy don't have normal rules? Its possible that pve will be trivilized regardless of how much they work on it but as said we have not seen it yet.

Well in this case...

So, in that spirit, I want to say that unlike cards (where there will be no modifying, only banning in tournament formats), mercenaries will be fixed if they are damaging the game experience. They represent a design challenge that is far greater in terms of balance than a single card, and we will not allow our attempt at “fun” to trivialize the PVE content.
(http://hextcg.com/exclusives-treasure-and-mercenaries/)

Eierdotter
09-16-2013, 02:22 AM
The only way to give the AI advantage over these fast decks would be to limit the amount of cards played/drawn per turn.
Everything else probably hurts "normal" decks too hard

Armies
09-16-2013, 06:37 PM
still have to see how powerful the standard champions are compared to mercs as well, could be some really nice class cards as well as charge powers

Shadowelf
09-16-2013, 06:43 PM
still have to see how powerful the standard champions are compared to mercs as well, could be some really nice class cards as well as charge powers

They will be pretty powerful; check the warrior skill tree. Note it's only shown up to lvl 14-champs can go up to 50 http://hextcg.com/creating-and-gearing-up-your-character/

Aradon
09-16-2013, 07:02 PM
They will be pretty powerful; check the warrior skill tree. Note it's only shown up to lvl 14-champs can go up to 50 http://hextcg.com/creating-and-gearing-up-your-character/

Wasn't it confirmed that those trees are quite out of date and have been extensively reworked? I don't think we know a whole lot about what champions will look like at this point, but they are supposed to be more powerful than mercs, which are already pretty good.

Shadowelf
09-16-2013, 07:08 PM
Wasn't it confirmed that those trees are quite out of date and have been extensively reworked? I don't think we know a whole lot about what champions will look like at this point, but they are supposed to be more powerful than mercs, which are already pretty good.

Really? I wasn't aware of it; anyway even if it won't be the final version that will end up being into the game, it still it gives you an idea on how powerful a champion can be in comparison to a mecenary

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-17-2013, 09:29 PM
Without looking at the decklists, Technical Genius isn't the best way to make use of Ebonrock. ;-)

vulture27
09-18-2013, 07:23 AM
I'm going to assume Reverse Engineering does not interact with Spectral Lotus in the most degenerate and retarded ways imaginable. Only other cards I see with a potentially low cost and game changing effect are Time Bug ("Time Bug is the Master of Time," wtf does that even mean?) or Void Marauder.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-18-2013, 09:07 AM
Hmmm? Why don't you think you can transform RE into Spectral Lotus (not drawing a card due to it not entering play, but rather transforming while already being in play), tapping for 3 temporary mana and 3 threshold, and filtering via the SL gloves ability?

While that's more for certain combo decks that want the burst mana and card filtering, you can also go the 1-4x Master Theorycrafter route, reduce a 7 or less cost troop down to 3 mana, and thus get any 7 or less cost troop out on turn 3.

vulture27
09-18-2013, 01:26 PM
I think my question is exactly what does "inscribe" mean in this game? Is it like imprint from MTG (the targeted card is voided from the game, but leaves behind some form of information on the inscribing card), or does Reverse Engineering turn into that individual copy of the card? It seems as though the first of the two could allow you to avoid the permanent transformation of a Lotus.

Anyway, I still cant figure out the interaction you have noticed. I did however see a few options that I missed previously, and they again make me think that Reverse Engineering is just way too stupidly powerful. There is a reason Demonic Tutor has been banned or restricted in almost every format for a very long time.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=202628

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-18-2013, 02:28 PM
While we can't know for certain, I'd imagine that if the card were to be voided, it'd say so. It seems like inscribe just marks RE with the card, for future transformation if that's what you want to do. Obviously the SL route becomes a little less viable if it's taken out of your deck, though I don't think the RE will transform into a real SL under any circumstance.

Getting a fifth spectral lotus in a deck, and one that doesn't consume a real lotus, is enormous. You get to tap it for 3 mana and 3 threshold is a huge burst that allows for degenerate plays, and then filtering a large number of cards thanks to the gloves is absurdly powerful for combo decks that only require a couple of cards to go off.