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Purpherb
09-16-2013, 01:44 PM
It has not been addressed yet, but how would you feel if there was some type of bought item that made pve easier (bought with real cash). I am personally very excited for the pve side of things and was under the assumption that there would be no way to purchase advantage in that except for buying pvp booster packs. What would everyone be cool with and what would turn you off for purchsables in pve. I know they said there will be no phone game mechanics that limit playtime and also that it has all been designed so that the player will progress as they advance with items and cards.

Gwaer
09-16-2013, 01:47 PM
They've also said very sternly that you won't be able to buy anything like this. I'd be pretty upset about it I think.

Gulbech
09-16-2013, 01:54 PM
You will however be able to buy things of the auction house, so you can pay to get an advantage if you want. But it will not be a direct part of the fame, where you pay to cze.

zadies
09-16-2013, 02:39 PM
If they disabled the ability to sell items on the ah for plat then you inherently make PvP p2win which if the ah is actually as well balanced as hoped with chase equipment being worth money you can argue the entire game is pay for convince.

Umaro
09-16-2013, 02:54 PM
I think it would be a bad choice to have Real Money P2W items on the PVE side, as it would just put Hex on the same level as the iOS/Android "Card Battle" games. I would not, however, be opposed to gold purchases that make PVE easier, like buffs of sorts.

We already know that Raid Leaders and all players in their party start with "Raid Leader's Blessing" (i believe it was called), which is a constant that heals each player for 1 at the start of their turn, etc etc. I would love to see things of this nature that are up for gold purchase, though I feel that making permanent ones available for purchase would take away from the KS exclusivity of the tiers with similar things. Something like a temporary, similar item for sale for gold would be pretty cool.

This could have some various applications, too. Some could be for assistance in defeating a dungeon, some could be for treasure hunting, some could just be for kicks, and some could be how one attempts hard-mode dungeons (ex: Attempt Junkyard Dogs with xxx dungeon buff for added rewards upon completion.)

Shadowelf
09-16-2013, 03:01 PM
1)To answer the OP's question there probably won't be xp boosts or stauff like that in pve
(http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360 check 0:45:55)

2)Well they said that that there won't be paywalls and that pve will scale with starters
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:59:15

3)You will be able to sell your pve drops at the AH for platinum to fund your pvp needs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc check 0:33:15

4)pve equipment drops will be the chasiest things in the game
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check check 0:21:50

5)Cory works on a gold sink that will help gold retain its value therefore making it more desirable in the market
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/08/21/gencon-2013-interview-with-a-princess-transcript/

6)you can play pve in hard mode to unlock items with potentially greater value and cosmetics (cooler looking drops)
http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360 check 0:08:58

7)they are planning fun daily quests like phantom version of cards; you will be able to get phantom versions of cards via crafting or as a rare drop in pve, socket them to a wheel, and you get a spin of that wheel each time you login with a chance to win one of the cards that were socketed there; and those cards will be absolutely tradeable
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:39:15

8)value of packs in the game is higher that any other card game. This gives more value to vip program. Why ? well they are cheaper, give you the chance of a primal pack full of rares and legendaries, plus each pack contains a chest with chance for higher rewards like more packs, items, gold, sleeves and mercs

more on vip update #7 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=8
more on primal packs update #5 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=9
more on treasure chests http://hextcg.com/exclusives-treasure-and-mercenaries/

9)The Void Society has come to Entrath to gather raw materials for their war effort back home. They take cards and gear you don’t need and, in return, give you items that can combine into new and unique PvE cards and gear. Players can gain access to these crafting cards and gear by turning the cards and gear they don’t need into component parts, then assemble the crafting components into items. Unlock more powerful items and crafting recipes as you level your crafting skill. (update#5 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=9)

The_Wine_Gnat
09-16-2013, 03:10 PM
I'm finding myself following Shadowelf's reponses more and more consistently. :)

<3

heavyhitter86
09-16-2013, 03:25 PM
I love shadowelf ... just skip ahead to his posts and get all of the questions answered with proof.

Shadowelf can I follow you on twitter?

Gulbech
09-16-2013, 03:32 PM
I just want his list off all interviews, what they contain and when. Even think I can sell it :P

Gwaer
09-16-2013, 03:34 PM
A good bit of it is out of date. But the amount of time he put into catalogueing it all is pretty incredible.

Shadowelf
09-16-2013, 03:41 PM
I'm finding myself following Shadowelf's reponses more and more consistently. :)

<3


I love shadowelf ... just skip ahead to his posts and get all of the questions answered with proof.

Shadowelf can I follow you on twitter?

Thanks for the support guys; really means a lot to me :o


I just want his list off all interviews, what they contain and when. Even think I can sell it :P

Here is it; stickied at new player help forum. http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26987 (some info about alpha's release is outdated-have to persuade my lazy ass to update it :)


A good bit of it is out of date. But the amount of time he put into catalogueing it all is pretty incredible.

Thanks :) Mind to tell me what is outdated so that i can update it ?

Gwaer
09-16-2013, 04:41 PM
I do try to correct things when I notice them. I don't do lists like you do =). A lot of the stuff said in the original twitch streams have been changed or clarified elsewhere. Often in person.

Shadowelf
09-16-2013, 04:50 PM
I do try to correct things when I notice them. I don't do lists like you do =). A lot of the stuff said in the original twitch streams have been changed or clarified elsewhere. Often in person.

And I appreciate your feedback; there is no way however to access in person info, and till i find it written or voiced somewhere by an official source, so that i can proper catalogue it and link it if needed, i will be using those ;) Nothing has changed so drastically that is misinforming anyway, as far i'm concerned

jetah
09-16-2013, 04:55 PM
actually you can kinda p2w even in pve. you buy boosters, sell cards, buy items, p2w.

This was also posted in my thread "My (almos) Greatest Concern". I can't link to it because it'll violate the forum CoC.
*and yes, I misspelled almost!


Shadow,
where is your blog with all of this? you could just point people to it!

Shadowelf
09-16-2013, 05:07 PM
Shadow,
where is your blog with all of this? you could just point people to it!

Stickied at new player help forum http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26987

Going to put it at my sig too, since nobody visits that forum it appears :)

zadies
09-16-2013, 05:49 PM
There is a difference between p2win and paying in general there are only 2 items released that can be considered p2win and both of them are kickstarter rewards. Anything else in the game can be earned by playing the game and you are not excluded from getting it without paying.

jetah
09-16-2013, 05:53 PM
There is a difference between p2win and paying in general there are only 2 items released that can be considered p2win and both of them are kickstarter rewards. Anything else in the game can be earned by playing the game and you are not excluded from getting it without paying.

And TCG are just p2w anyways. You have to pay (time or money) for boosters or individual cards. Some people pay with pay check others with Time.

Gwaer
09-16-2013, 06:18 PM
Tcg's are pay to play. There's nothing you can buy in magic that guarantees victory. Many cheap decks have beaten expensive ones. Pay to win would be if you could buy a potion that made you take half damage and do twice as much damage or something similar.

Ofiach
09-16-2013, 06:24 PM
And TCG are just p2w anyways. You have to pay (time or money) for boosters or individual cards. Some people pay with pay check others with Time.

Not true at all jetah. Most TCG's are P2P, as is HEX. P2W is a way of forcing anyone who wants to compete at a high level to pay for a F2P model. This game is not a F2P model so I just have to consider it P2P and sigh at the marketing departments lies.

I really feel this game's kickstarter and Main website need to be much more honest about this games pay model. This title is pay to play with some free to play elements, touting it as a F2P TCG is pretty shady. They've made such a solid(looking) game that I don't believe it needs to have PVP hidden behind such a paywall but whatever.

They're doing the old Heroin dealer trick. Give people a "Free Sample" to get them hooked and watch em come back for more.

Someone coming along who doesn't have time to watch interview after interview and sees "A brand new F2P MMOTCG," throws a hundred or so into the game because they see that F2P stuff everywhere will be pissed to find that the reason most people like TCG's is behind a Pay Wall. Lets be honest, most people are drawn into TCG's for the PVP, I for one wont give a rats ass about much of the PVE content because I don't have time to grind dungeons, there's a reason I don't play RIFT or WoW.

Gwaer
09-16-2013, 06:32 PM
Honestly, I was most excited about PVP and from that stance I can see your point. But PVE is so huge and rich and just has so much depth to it that it is a f2p game all on its own. It's just paid for by people that do PVP. Seriously. From the looks of it a player with no interest in PVP can get so many hours of enjoyment out of PVE without paying a dime that its ridiculous.

Aradon
09-16-2013, 06:33 PM
I dunno, I care almost exclusively about the PvE. I can play PvP with my friends at the local card shop. And anyone who expects a completely free-to-play TCG is going to be disappointed one way or another. The nature of them is that you buy booster packs to collect cards. What's to collect or trade if there's nothing to acquire?

Gwaer
09-16-2013, 06:39 PM
The PVE set that you can only get through PVE content and cannot buy in booster packs is almost as large as the PVP set. 300 some odd cards. There's a ton of stuff to acquire. Add in the gear you want and you have plenty of stuff to work toward and never need to pay a dime if you don't want to.

jetah
09-16-2013, 06:57 PM
yeah i guess p2w isn't correct and that p2p is what Hex is, however...


the f2p part is for pve. they will give pve people cards left and right and you do get a starter deck for creating an account. pve can be f2p.

zadies
09-16-2013, 07:04 PM
It really all comes down to how much chase pve equipment is if you can even use the p2p argument. If something in the ftp pve section sells for 100 bucks worth of plat then the game is not pay to play it becomes pay for convenience.

Simo46
09-16-2013, 08:02 PM
TCG's always have an inherent cost involved, and naturally they aren't viable if you're not paying for cards so I don't know what the worry is. The fact they were are getting what I view as 'free value' through the immense PvE side of things is a fantastic bonus.

Ofiach
09-16-2013, 09:11 PM
I'm not saying the PVP being Pay to play is a bad thing at all. I'm just one of those people who likes things up front and plainly spoken. "F2P PVE and P2P PVP, with a small chance of selling and trading some PVE stuff for PVP stuff." If that had been a header on the kickstarter or on the main website I wouldn't have any issues at all.I just feel that there was no real reason for them to try to skirt the issue, if anything it has a slight negative impact in my mind. They never really come out and say on the website or kickstarter that ONLY the PVE is F2P, it's just spin control and it bugs me. Just a pet peeve I guess.

@Gwaer The PVE being F2P just means CZE is going to make a crapton off people buying plat to pay for super rare cards. F2P gaming is so huge for a reason. That reason? F2P gaming makes more money than any subscription based game ever has. Look at the billions made by SOE or RIOT on their Sub par F2P titles alone. It's a good business model because people balk at subscriptions but feel all giddy paying 5 bucks for a weapon. It's just playing to human instant gratification needs. That feeling of, "I'm getting a leg up on everyone for just five bucks! HAHA!!" and then by the end of a month they've put 50 bucks in for a few pieces of equipment.

@Zadies I think that will most likely come down to each individual player. I don't really have time to get into dungeon crawling, so this game is going to be P2P no matter what for me since I wont be putting in the hours to get the rare lewts. I'm not much into raiding either, even when I played wow many many moons ago I was all about the PVP and never raided. I really can't see people dropping much more than a 20 on some super rare card that they can get from grinding a dungeon.

On that note are we getting a mixed bag of PVP/PVE cards in the starters/boosters or are we choosing between PVP/PVE starters/boosters? I'm still a little fuzzy on that topic.

zadies
09-16-2013, 09:18 PM
I was picking an obscene number really to make a point but looking at the uber rates in ddo I really have seen people drop 200 on a single pve item.

Doesn't really matter how you might choose to play if the option is available and you choose not to take advantage of it then you are paying to avoid grinding which is not paying to play given you were given the choice not to have to pay or paying to speed up your ability to PvP neither are pay to win or play.

Ofiach
09-16-2013, 09:23 PM
Someone paid 200 for a PVE item... in a computer game?.... holy crap. I can't wrap my mind around that. But there was the guy who killed his friend for selling something off his account like ten years ago. I guess my mind doesn't work that way.

The point you're making works both ways however. If something's going for 100 bucks or 200 do you really think more than a hundred or so people are going to get it? Are they even going to sell it? so PVP becomes a little less P2P for a few people, that's not a F2P model.

Kami
09-16-2013, 09:31 PM
I'm not saying the PVP being Pay to play is a bad thing at all. I'm just one of those people who likes things up front and plainly spoken. "F2P PVE and P2P PVP, with a small chance of selling and trading some PVE stuff for PVP stuff." If that had been a header on the kickstarter or on the main website I wouldn't have any issues at all.I just feel that there was no real reason for them to try to skirt the issue, if anything it has a slight negative impact in my mind. They never really come out and say on the website or kickstarter that ONLY the PVE is F2P, it's just spin control and it bugs me. Just a pet peeve I guess.

Technically speaking, there was no spin. It is literally free-to-play. Even in other free-to-play games, there are aspects that you have to pay for but there is no upfront cost to play the game.


@Gwaer The PVE being F2P just means CZE is going to make a crapton off people buying plat to pay for super rare cards. F2P gaming is so huge for a reason. That reason? F2P gaming makes more money than any subscription based game ever has. Look at the billions made by SOE or RIOT on their Sub par F2P titles alone. It's a good business model because people balk at subscriptions but feel all giddy paying 5 bucks for a weapon. It's just playing to human instant gratification needs. That feeling of, "I'm getting a leg up on everyone for just five bucks! HAHA!!" and then by the end of a month they've put 50 bucks in for a few pieces of equipment.

This is an assumption that a lot of players are making. Buying super-rare cards or equipment does not mean you will have a good deck or a better chance than a player who spent nothing. The fact that this is inherently a card game and not strictly an MMORPG in the traditional sense means that TCG mechanics come in to play. In a traditional MMORPG, there is a substantial difference in equipment quality, level, buffs, etc. In a TCG though, you're limited by your strategy. If only super-rare cards were viable, game modes like Pauper, Highlander, etc. wouldn't make sense.

Let's say in a traditional MMORPG you have two weapon slots, helm, armor, shoulders, gloves, legs, boots, two accessory slots, and a neck slot. That's roughly eleven 'options' you have and in most cases, there is an optimal loadout; typically involving expensive and hard to obtain gear. In a TCG like Hex, you have a loadout of sixty possible cards or more (slightly less or more depending on shards included). If things are balanced and/or depending on your play style, it's unlikely that there will be an optimal loadout in general that works for everyone.

Long story short, spending more money does not necessarily mean you have a fast access pass to winning.


@Zadies I think that will most likely come down to each individual player. I don't really have time to get into dungeon crawling, so this game is going to be P2P no matter what for me since I wont be putting in the hours to get the rare lewts. I'm not much into raiding either, even when I played wow many many moons ago I was all about the PVP and never raided. I really can't see people dropping much more than a 20 on some super rare card that they can get from grinding a dungeon.

The only potential money I see players feeling forced to spend/trade for would be for rare/legendary equipment that enhances their particular deck and play style. Even then, it is optional. Deck building knowledge will likely be far more important than having one specific card/equipment.


On that note are we getting a mixed bag of PVP/PVE cards in the starters/boosters or are we choosing between PVP/PVE starters/boosters? I'm still a little fuzzy on that topic.

All paid boosters are PvP cards only.

zadies
09-16-2013, 09:31 PM
Free to play is just that you play without paying anything. It is not free for everything. It means you have equal opportunity from the RNG gods as someone that dumps money into the game.

Notice I never said the game wasn't pay to win given the kickstarter had things a hopefully small percentage of the population can never have period.

But a game model where you can take time and convert it into in game currency that doesn't have a wall between what you can earn and what you can purchase outright is not pay to play.

The question becomes does the ah actually facilitate this... If it does paying becomes a choice as to what is more valuable time or money.

The raid leader/producer/dungeon clawler tires in kickstarter actually blew a hole in the entire argument that the game isn't pay to win but as long as you can't buy something directly with cash that you can't buy through conversion in game at a realitively reasonable rate of exchange then the game isn't pay to play.

Ofiach
09-16-2013, 09:38 PM
Having to fall back on technicalities is the exact way I think of spin control. If I borrowed a buddies car and it got rearended and totaled then when I returned it and he asked "did you scratch it?" if I said "No" It's "technically" true. I didn't do anything to it at all.

Same principle, they say one thing but it's only half the story. Half-truth, spin control, manipulation, etc etc. There was absolutely no reason for them to do it.

EDIT rather than write a whole new post: F2P is something like PS2, LoL, or how the PVE is set up in this game. You will absolutely have to pay to get into PVP in this game, there's no way around it. Tournaments cost money and boosters cost money. Casual PVP doesn't gain you anything so it's a non-entity. Like I've been saying it doesn't bug me that it's set up this way. The way the game is touted is what bothers me.

Kami
09-16-2013, 09:42 PM
Having to fall back on technicalities is the exact way I think of spin control. If I borrowed a buddies car and it got rearended and totaled then when I returned it and he asked "did you scratch it?" if I said "No" It's "technically" true. I didn't do anything to it at all.

Same principle, they say one thing but it's only half the story. Half-truth, spin control, manipulation, etc etc. There was absolutely no reason for them to do it.

Wrong analogy. The question the your buddy should have asked was: "Is the car damaged?"

A better example (although not 100% accurate to the game) would be: I give you a free car with a full tank and tell you it's free-to-drive.

Soul-of-Void
09-16-2013, 09:46 PM
Dont have any proof but i remember they said starter deck is usable in pvp.

As for that p2w etc, anyone that got any contact with TCG would know it was always p2p couse of the nature of the game. Hex even got pve side that is f2p and can get every drop free if spend enouth time like any other MMO. Sure ppl can buy things that will boost the chance to complete dungeon/raid but it like that in any other MMO.

zadies
09-16-2013, 09:48 PM
They have always said that pve was free to play. Never in any discussions do I remember them even hinting that PvP cards were free.
If there was no PvP balanced set the entire game would be free to play.
Also given each tier listed its projected value in terms of starter decks and boosters walking away with the idea that PvP was free to play in any competive sense seems rather strange.

Gwaer
09-16-2013, 10:15 PM
Also it's not 100% certain that you have to pay for PVP. You can sell stuff from PVE. Farm that stuff and buy PVP cards on the ah. Make some plat to pay for tournament fees. Play PVP in the anything goes format that allows PVE cards and equipment.

Also. It's not a technicality that there are things to buy. All f2p games have things to buy. Just like people pay RP for champs in league rather than farming ip. You can farm for your PVP stuff too. Granted you'll be buying it through an AH instead of the CZE store. But you can buy it with in game currency/plat you got from trades. The potential to be entirely f2p even in the nominally pay to play section is extremely generous on their part.

Ofiach
09-16-2013, 11:08 PM
Just gonna have to agree to disagree here then. You're never going to convince PVP isn't a P2P model and they didn't broadcast that message at all during the initial marketing for a reason.

Once again I'm going to say the system they chose isn't a bad thing at all.

@ Kami While that analogy made me chuckle (that's how I got my first beater from my old man) I dunno if that analogy is better. I did ask if the game was F2P and the answer was yes. I should have asked if the entire game was F2P. So technically they got me because I asked the wrong question.

Unhurtable
09-16-2013, 11:47 PM
Oh boy this discussion again. Lets see if we have learnt anything in a months time.



As for that p2w etc, anyone that got any contact with TCG would know it was always p2p couse of the nature of the game. Hex even got pve side that is f2p and can get every drop free if spend enouth time like any other MMO. Sure ppl can buy things that will boost the chance to complete dungeon/raid but it like that in any other MMO.

And TCG are just p2w anyways. You have to pay (time or money) for boosters or individual cards. Some people pay with pay check others with Time.

If they disabled the ability to sell items on the ah for plat then you inherently make PvP p2win which if the ah is actually as well balanced as hoped with chase equipment being worth money you can argue the entire game is pay for convince.

PvP is already partially P2W. Its somewhere in the grey zone between P2P and P2W.


actually you can kinda p2w even in pve. you buy boosters, sell cards, buy items, p2w.

This was also posted in my thread "My (almos) Greatest Concern". I can't link to it because it'll violate the forum CoC.
*and yes, I misspelled almost!

It violates the CoC to link threads regarding a certain topic already being discussed in the thread?

Tcg's are pay to play. There's nothing you can buy in magic that guarantees victory. Many cheap decks have beaten expensive ones. Pay to win would be if you could buy a potion that made you take half damage and do twice as much damage or something similar.

Can you buy a potion for double damage? No, but the starter deck will not be as strong as a 20$ deck. I'm 99% certain of this, and I would love to see someone winning a tournament with a starter deck vs 20+$ decks. Saying that "cheap decks have beaten expensive ones" says nothing regarding whether or not the expensive deck has a larger win ratio. To be fair, that could be correct, but it's like saying "That other guy had a potion of double damage and I still beat him. This game therefore cannot be P2W".


Not true at all jetah. Most TCG's are P2P, as is HEX. P2W is a way of forcing anyone who wants to compete at a high level to pay for a F2P model. This game is not a F2P model so I just have to consider it P2P and sigh at the marketing departments lies.

P2W doesn't necessarily mean you have to invest money to compete at a high level, just look at LoL. It's P2W until you get to play in big tournaments where everything is unlocked.


I really feel this game's kickstarter and Main website need to be much more honest about this games pay model. This title is pay to play with some free to play elements, touting it as a F2P TCG is pretty shady. They've made such a solid(looking) game that I don't believe it needs to have PVP hidden behind such a paywall but whatever.

They're doing the old Heroin dealer trick. Give people a "Free Sample" to get them hooked and watch em come back for more.

Someone coming along who doesn't have time to watch interview after interview and sees "A brand new F2P MMOTCG," throws a hundred or so into the game because they see that F2P stuff everywhere will be pissed to find that the reason most people like TCG's is behind a Pay Wall. Lets be honest, most people are drawn into TCG's for the PVP, I for one wont give a rats ass about much of the PVE content because I don't have time to grind dungeons, there's a reason I don't play RIFT or WoW.
The game is pretty much F2P. PvP is essentially F2P, you just can't play in tournaments or formats that require boosters. PvE is F2P.
I don't see how the marketing is off. It would be like releasing Starcraft 3 for free, then having a money-opt-in for Ladder games. You can still claim its F2P, but a part of the experience would require money.


This is an assumption that a lot of players are making. Buying super-rare cards or equipment does not mean you will have a good deck or a better chance than a player who spent nothing. The fact that this is inherently a card game and not strictly an MMORPG in the traditional sense means that TCG mechanics come in to play. In a traditional MMORPG, there is a substantial difference in equipment quality, level, buffs, etc. In a TCG though, you're limited by your strategy. If only super-rare cards were viable, game modes like Pauper, Highlander, etc. wouldn't make sense.

But starter decks will clearly not be the best decks. A person who spent 20$ should have a higher chance to win based on the efficiency of his deck compared to someone who plays with a starter deck. Of course this is not a linear curve, a 200$ deck will most certainly not have a much higher chance of winning vs a 100$ deck.

I'm not saying only super-rare cards are viable, but saying that starter decks will be just as viable as a carefully constructed deck of 20$ is at best not very honest.

Arbiter
09-16-2013, 11:53 PM
Dont have any proof but i remember they said starter deck is usable in pvp.

They definitely have not said this. There will be paid starters, that will have a preset deck of PVP cards. For those that do not want to buy a starter deck, they can start with a free starter deck. This deck cannot be traded and the only other thing we know about it is that it is there so you can start playing the PVE free to play game.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-17-2013, 01:32 AM
@ Unhurtable - P2W doesn't necessarily mean you have to invest money to compete at a high level, just look at LoL. It's P2W until you get to play in big tournaments where everything is unlocked.

You had some valid points until this. Then you lost me. LoL isn't pay to win. Pay to buy skins. Every single champion and rune are free through IP. Just takes some time. How do I know. Been playing since Beta and I have just about all of them. You should correct your post.

WoT is P2W. The Lowe was outrageous when they released it. You could only get it if you paid hard cash.

Ofiach
09-17-2013, 01:44 AM
Oh don't even get me started on WoT and wallet warriors -_-.... My poor Beta Is-4 and the A**F**ing it took because of the Lowe...... Damn those Russian's and their P2W BS. Not to mention the KT being so UP when it was such a deadly tank..... errrrrrrm sorry old rage memories :P

@ Unhurtable saying PvP is F2P when you earn nothing in PVP unless you're PAYING to get into the tournaments makes no sense. By that logic vanilla WoW was F2P because you could reach lvl 10 for free.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-17-2013, 01:54 AM
Oh don't even get me started on WoT and wallet warriors -_-.... My poor Beta Is-4 and the A**F**ing it took because of the Lowe...... Damn those Russian's and their P2W BS. Not to mention the KT being so UP when it was such a deadly tank..... errrrrrrm sorry old rage memories :P

@ Unhurtable saying PvP is F2P when you earn nothing in PVP unless you're PAYING to get into the tournaments makes no sense. By that logic vanilla WoW was F2P because you could reach lvl 10 for free.

I could feel you physically shaking as you emphasized PAYING. Lol.

(love the wallet warrior reference too!)

Ofiach
09-17-2013, 01:59 AM
*Anime devil face shaking fist at the screen* PAYING!!!!!!

Lmao sorry. Recovering from surgery the drugs make me laugh a little too easily.

Heh I had many many many arguments on the old wot forums before the game made me finally give up because they stealth buffed gold ammo one too many times. I think my old guild is probably having nightmares about my rages over that subject. The Lowe and gold ammo, the Kryptonite bullet for WoT.

Unhurtable
09-17-2013, 03:46 AM
@ Unhurtable - P2W doesn't necessarily mean you have to invest money to compete at a high level, just look at LoL. It's P2W until you get to play in big tournaments where everything is unlocked.

You had some valid points until this. Then you lost me. LoL isn't pay to win. Pay to buy skins. Every single champion and rune are free through IP. Just takes some time. How do I know. Been playing since Beta and I have just about all of them. You should correct your post.

WoT is P2W. The Lowe was outrageous when they released it. You could only get it if you paid hard cash.

Let's compare LoL to its competitor Dota2.
One game lets you have all the heroes from the start.
The other game requires you to either farm to get all the heroes or you can pay to get them earlier.
Would you put both games in the same "not P2W" basket? Having all the heroes is clearly an advantage as countering an enemy with a specific hero can lead to a huge advantage.

Secondly, just because you can farm it up doesn't mean it suddenly becomes "not P2W". There is virtually no difference between an item you cannot acquire by playing and an item that you can buy for money or requires a million hours into the game.


Oh don't even get me started on WoT and wallet warriors -_-.... My poor Beta Is-4 and the A**F**ing it took because of the Lowe...... Damn those Russian's and their P2W BS. Not to mention the KT being so UP when it was such a deadly tank..... errrrrrrm sorry old rage memories :P

@ Unhurtable saying PvP is F2P when you earn nothing in PVP unless you're PAYING to get into the tournaments makes no sense. By that logic vanilla WoW was F2P because you could reach lvl 10 for free.

1. F2P doesn't require you to "earn" anything by playing it. Can you play PvP without paying a single dime? Yes, hence it's not P2P. If something is not P2P, then its F2P.
2. Vanilla WoW was F2P until level 10, that is absolutely true. Do you want to play post level 10? Then they want money for that.
3. Tournament fees have nothing to whether or not PvP is F2P. It would be like saying "LoL isn't F2P because some tournaments have entry fees".

Ofiach
09-17-2013, 03:58 AM
Unhurtable do you listen to your own arguments?

1) F2P means you can earn anything relevant to progression for... ummm what's the word... free? maybe? If that was the case in HEX you could buy Boosters for silver/gold, whatever it is you earn besides plat.

2) So because it was F2P to level ten you're going to call the game F2P? ummmmm no I don't think so.

3) LoL is F2P because just about every tournament is free to enter(even the biggest of the tournaments is free for the players), the progression is free, anything concerning actual gameplay is free. So unless the entire system has changed in the past 6 months, which I highly doubt, LoL is most definitely F2P.

You had some good points the first time around...... what happened?

Unhurtable
09-17-2013, 04:28 AM
Unhurtable do you listen to your own arguments?

1) F2P means you can earn anything relevant to progression for... ummm what's the word... free? maybe? If that was the case in HEX you could buy Boosters for silver/gold, whatever it is you earn besides plat.

2) So because it was F2P to level ten you're going to call the game F2P? ummmmm no I don't think so.

3) LoL is F2P because just about every tournament is free to enter(even the biggest of the tournaments is free for the players), the progression is free, anything concerning actual gameplay is free. So unless the entire system has changed in the past 6 months, which I highly doubt, LoL is most definitely F2P.

You had some good points the first time around...... what happened?

1. What is "relevant to progression"? So what you are saying is if LoL decided to introduce 1 Hero that must be bought with money, the game would seize to be F2P?

2. Yes I would call it F2P up to level ten. The entire game wouldn't be F2P obviously, but it would be F2P up to level 10.

3. But LoL wouldn't seize to be F2P just because some tournaments would require an entry fee.

Lets expand on the example I gave in point number 1, and lets say the newly introduced hero required 1 trillion IP to require. This means by playing without IP boosters, it would take approximately 10 billion games to acquire the hero for free. Is the progression still "free" by the same means as the progression was before this hero was implemented? No, because the new hero essentially requires you to pay for it since nobody can reasonably play 10 billion games on the same account. This of course is an extreme example, but the point I'm trying to make is that just because something can be earned by playing the game does not mean its not part of a P2W structure.

zadies
09-17-2013, 07:06 AM
Sorry why should they pay you to play their game?

That is really what you are asking for when requesting free to play PvP tournaments with prizes.

The fact is that you can play noncompetitive non-tournament PvP for free and all of the pve which is what they touted as being free.

You haven't proposed an alternate workable model for cze to actually be able to pay their employees.

Also you have not explained how you could expect free to play competitive prize driven PvP when the tiers clearly set a real world value for boosters and update 1 explained how drafting required you to show up with three of your own boosters.

Given the ah has not come out to set relative values for gold and pve gear this conversation really won't go anywhere because it is based on the premise that pve items are basically worthless.

Ofiach
09-17-2013, 07:16 AM
I know I'm diving down the path of flame and troll but, what the hell, why not.

1) If you don't know what progression is in a video game I suggest you read up some before disagreeing/agreeing with a post about it. Sure, there can be some variations in the most technical aspects of "progression"; however, anyone having an honest argument can easily understand the basic meaning of someone else when it comes to that. So I'll be specific in a general way, wait what? Progression in a TCG is about getting the cards you need to make you're deck more powerful. You can progress in PVE just fine as F2P, the PVP side is stagnant without cash though. So back to my point, this games PVP is not F2P at all.

Its cease not seize.

As for you're example about LoL, no that wouldn't stop it from being F2P if it was 1 champ. I would just consider that champ a special case. The entire rest of the game is F2P one champ wouldn't change that. The LoL devs aren't stupid enough to make the only pay champ be godlike either so it probably wouldn't even fall into the P2W category.

2) Go back and read the post's you quoted earlier, you're arguing against the point you were attempting to make. I'm not really sure you have a point anymore besides arguing, but whatever that's not the point. You wouldn't call WoW F2P for such a flimsy reason. If Blizzards marketing had been putting F2P banners everywhere then capped the game at level ten and never mentioned anything about that on the main website people would have been pissed. Especially since there was a 60$ buy in to WoW back in the day and people weren't very used to Subbing for games.

P.S. Even you said what should have been and was said about WoW's free trial. "Yes I would call it F2P up to level ten. The entire game wouldn't be F2P obviously, but it would be F2P up to level 10." All I've been trying to say is CZE should have been just as honest about their set up, there was no need to play the game they did.

3) You're right it would still be free to play, because you earn IGC every game you play and that IGC goes toward buying new champs and perks. So you're still progressing, so it's still F2P, tournaments requiring an entry fee would just make competition P2P.

Also please make up your mind between calling something P2P and P2W, there is a pretty large difference. You're bouncing back and forth makes it really hard to understand what point you're trying to make.

Don't most people play for the PVP? I view TCG's as one of the most balanced and fun PVP experiences out there. CZE shouting F2P everywhere and kinda slipping over it in interviews is shady.

This is a bad example but lets go back to LoL. I would never trade a skin I paid for to get a champion I could unlock for a few hours of play time. That's kind of the system that you guys are saying makes PVP F2P, trading stuff that cost real cash for stuff that didn't. It makes no sense to me.

@Zadies as I have said over and over. I don't mind their set up, there was just no need for them to be shady about it.

zadies
09-17-2013, 07:53 AM
I would say most tcg players play PvP, which is why it is monitized in a system similar tho cheaper then MTG because tcg players understand it.

Most mmo players play pve and that is the crowd used to the marketing idea of f2p and the entirety of pve is f2p.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-17-2013, 10:15 AM
@Unhurtable - Your posts are devolving into arguing for arguments sake. Back up and see the definition of what you are trying to argue about, then start over. They call it a "mulligan" in golf.

F2P: Anything in the game that affects gameplay can be earned for free through time and experience. (ex: LoL, PS2)
P2W: Certain items/heros/tanks in the game, each with their own unique stats are ONLY accessible if you shell out hard cash. (ex: WoT, MWO).

Tinuvas
09-17-2013, 10:37 AM
Same principle, they say one thing but it's only half the story. Half-truth, spin control, manipulation, etc etc. There was absolutely no reason for them to do it.

Like I've been saying it doesn't bug me that it's set up this way. The way the game is touted is what bothers me.

I was actually startled by the honesty of CZE in their marketing compared to other F2P games out there. True, deep, F2P games don't exist as such in my experience. Maybe it's that jaded point of view that made my expectations low enough that the reality was exciting and refreshing for me.

While YOU don't have any serious interest in PvE, the fact that they will have an entire wing of the game that has no serious Real Cash advantage points almost blows my mind. As someone who will be spending significant amounts of time in PvE (and PVP, but that's not the point), my greatest concern is that they won't invest heavily in future expansions and let PvE shrivel on the vine a bit. That fear has been mollified by what CZE has SAID, but we'll have to see.

Rieper
09-17-2013, 10:42 AM
A game can be B2P/F2P and P2W at same time.

F2P is about cost to get into the game and keep playing with out getting kickoff for not paying.(Game is either B2P, F2P or P2P)
P2W is about what it takes to stay a top. None p2w takes time and P2W takes money.(Here we as far i know only got P2W or T2W(time to win))

The 2 thing have nothing to do with each other, you just often use them for same games, because lately alot of F2P screw up and end up with using a P2W microtransaction.
So yes if blizzard wanted to wow could be P2P with P2W.

Umaro
09-17-2013, 10:51 AM
...my greatest concern is that they won't invest heavily in future expansions and let PvE shrivel on the vine a bit. That fear has been mollified by what CZE has SAID, but we'll have to see.

I'm not actually all that concerned about this. Consider the fact that since there is no 3D model art aside from the quest hubs (that I know of, anyway), that artwork for future expansions will be incredibly (comparatively) easy to generate. Beyond that, it's just story, card, and deck building, and perhaps a few specific card interactions. As opposed to a full-fledged MMO like WOW, Rift, SWTOR, etc, where new expansions require new 3D armor skins, new creatures, new bosses, 3D Model clipping issues and world interactions, and voice acting. I think that expanding on the PVE will be low-cost enough that as long as the game is doing well, we'll get new content.

Just my thoughts, though. I could be very wrong.

ossuary
09-17-2013, 11:16 AM
As someone who will be spending significant amounts of time in PvE (and PVP, but that's not the point), my greatest concern is that they won't invest heavily in future expansions and let PvE shrivel on the vine a bit. That fear has been mollified by what CZE has SAID, but we'll have to see.

For what it's worth, Cory has stated that they have a 7 year plan for the story to this point. While it's true that some of that story will be told via the release of PVP sets and the flavor text and whatnot that goes, a lot of that story is also going to be taking place simultaneously inside the PVE side of the game. If you've seen any of the videos that show the world map and Cory talking about it (I'm sure Shadowelf will show up at some point soon to provide a link... linkmaster, I summon you! ;)), the PVE areas that will be available at game launch make up a little tiny corner of the whole planet; visually, the area that we will have access to at the beginning looks like a single country on a Risk board. The idea is for that PVE game area to continue to expand over the years to give us more and more content to play around with. So I don't think you need to worry about the MMO part of the game shriveling up after the first couple of months. :)

Unhurtable
09-17-2013, 01:45 PM
I know I'm diving down the path of flame and troll but, what the hell, why not.

1) If you don't know what progression is in a video game I suggest you read up some before disagreeing/agreeing with a post about it. Sure, there can be some variations in the most technical aspects of "progression"; however, anyone having an honest argument can easily understand the basic meaning of someone else when it comes to that. So I'll be specific in a general way, wait what? Progression in a TCG is about getting the cards you need to make you're deck more powerful. You can progress in PVE just fine as F2P, the PVP side is stagnant without cash though. So back to my point, this games PVP is not F2P at all.

Its cease not seize.

As for you're example about LoL, no that wouldn't stop it from being F2P if it was 1 champ. I would just consider that champ a special case. The entire rest of the game is F2P one champ wouldn't change that. The LoL devs aren't stupid enough to make the only pay champ be godlike either so it probably wouldn't even fall into the P2W category.

I know what progression is in a video game. Something is not progression if the sole ability to gain it is through monetary means, which would be the case in the cards of Hex (or essentially any TCG really).

Oh right, sorry yes I meant cease not seize.
By your definition....


F2P means you can earn anything relevant to progression for... ummm what's the word... free?

LoL would cease to be F2P as part of the progression (getting all the heroes) would be locked behind a paywall.



2) Go back and read the post's you quoted earlier, you're arguing against the point you were attempting to make. I'm not really sure you have a point anymore besides arguing, but whatever that's not the point. You wouldn't call WoW F2P for such a flimsy reason. If Blizzards marketing had been putting F2P banners everywhere then capped the game at level ten and never mentioned anything about that on the main website people would have been pissed. Especially since there was a 60$ buy in to WoW back in the day and people weren't very used to Subbing for games.

P.S. Even you said what should have been and was said about WoW's free trial. "Yes I would call it F2P up to level ten. The entire game wouldn't be F2P obviously, but it would be F2P up to level 10." All I've been trying to say is CZE should have been just as honest about their set up, there was no need to play the game they did.

Yes, lets go back shall we. Lets go back to the beginning. Here we go:
First up, me:


The game is pretty much F2P. PvP is essentially F2P, you just can't play in tournaments or formats that require boosters. PvE is F2P.

To which you responded:


By that logic vanilla WoW was F2P because you could reach lvl 10 for free.

To which I answered:


Vanilla WoW was F2P until level 10, that is absolutely true. Do you want to play post level 10? Then they want money for that.

To which you replied:


So because it was F2P to level ten you're going to call the game F2P? ummmmm no I don't think so.

To which I responded:


Yes I would call it F2P up to level ten. The entire game wouldn't be F2P obviously, but it would be F2P up to level 10.

And here we are. I don't see where I'm arguing against the point I was trying to make. I have a point besides arguing. Maybe you should go back and figure it out. I can also be very vague in my posts :)
The marketing team of WoW never said "all progression is F2P", but there have been LOADS of banners saying "Try out World of Warcraft for free". Of course they are going to use words to make their game look the best.

Where should they have been honest? The game is a F2P MMOTCG. It is certainly not a P2P MMOTCG.



3) You're right it would still be free to play, because you earn IGC every game you play and that IGC goes toward buying new champs and perks. So you're still progressing, so it's still F2P, tournaments requiring an entry fee would just make competition P2P.

Also please make up your mind between calling something P2P and P2W, there is a pretty large difference. You're bouncing back and forth makes it really hard to understand what point you're trying to make.

Something can be P2P and P2W at the same time. Those terms are not mutually exclusive. Its like saying "this car is big and red". Yes, there is a pretty large difference between a big car and a red car.

I don't see where I have mixed these up to be honest.


Don't most people play for the PVP? I view TCG's as one of the most balanced and fun PVP experiences out there. CZE shouting F2P everywhere and kinda slipping over it in interviews is shady.

This is a bad example but lets go back to LoL. I would never trade a skin I paid for to get a champion I could unlock for a few hours of play time. That's kind of the system that you guys are saying makes PVP F2P, trading stuff that cost real cash for stuff that didn't. It makes no sense to me.
AFAIK Hex has been mostly marketed as "the first MMOTCG" and they have been talking heavily about the PvE aspect rather than the PvP aspect.

No, I'm saying PvP is F2P because there is no requirement to pay in order to participate. I personally think that the "you can get PvP cards slowly by playing PvE and trading" is not a valid argument for why Hex is not partially P2W.


@Unhurtable - Your posts are devolving into arguing for arguments sake. Back up and see the definition of what you are trying to argue about, then start over. They call it a "mulligan" in golf.

F2P: Anything in the game that affects gameplay can be earned for free through time and experience. (ex: LoL, PS2)
P2W: Certain items/heros/tanks in the game, each with their own unique stats are ONLY accessible if you shell out hard cash. (ex: WoT, MWO).

My posts tend to devolve into argumentation because there is no point in shouting "no you are wrong" over and over again. Argumentation is one of the better ways of finding out who is actually correct, so I tend to use it.

I backed up (as you might have seen earlier in this post) and I still don't understand where I seem to be "arguing against myself".

But in your case of F2P LoL wasn't a F2P game until they made Runepages available to buy through IP (at first they were only available through RP or special rewards), since Runepages have an effect on gameplay. LoL was clearly a F2P game before this.

But in your case WoT wouldn't be P2W if the best tanks either required 5$ or a hundred thousand games, since they would not only be accessible if you shell out hard cash.

As I've tried to explain dozens of times on this forum, it is a greyscale. Some games are more P2W than other games.

Thrawn
09-17-2013, 02:09 PM
I think the better question is why anyone would care about P2W on the PVE side of a game. I could care less if someone who gave Cryptozoic a bunch of money can beat a dungeon faster than I can.

jimmywolf
09-17-2013, 04:19 PM
For what it's worth, Cory has stated that they have a 7 year plan for the story to this point. While it's true that some of that story will be told via the release of PVP sets and the flavor text and whatnot that goes, a lot of that story is also going to be taking place simultaneously inside the PVE side of the game. If you've seen any of the videos that show the world map and Cory talking about it (I'm sure Shadowelf will show up at some point soon to provide a link... linkmaster, I summon you! ;)), the PVE areas that will be available at game launch make up a little tiny corner of the whole planet; visually, the area that we will have access to at the beginning looks like a single country on a Risk board. The idea is for that PVE game area to continue to expand over the years to give us more and more content to play around with. So I don't think you need to worry about the MMO part of the game shriveling up after the first couple of months. :)

great news thanks for sharing

Shadowelf
09-17-2013, 04:56 PM
Sorry for being late Oss...summoning sickness:p


For what it's worth, Cory has stated that they have a 7 year plan for the story to this point. While it's true that some of that story will be told via the release of PVP sets and the flavor text and whatnot that goes, a lot of that story is also going to be taking place simultaneously inside the PVE side of the game

http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:51:20


If you've seen any of the videos that show the world map and Cory talking about it (I'm sure Shadowelf will show up at some point soon to provide a link... linkmaster, I summon you! ;)), the PVE areas that will be available at game launch make up a little tiny corner of the whole planet; visually, the area that we will have access to at the beginning looks like a single country on a Risk board. The idea is for that PVE game area to continue to expand over the years to give us more and more content to play around with. So I don't think you need to worry about the MMO part of the game shriveling up after the first couple of months. :)

http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:30:50

Aradon
09-17-2013, 05:24 PM
Sorry for being late Oss...summoning sickness:p

So it's a tap ability, then? :D

Shadowelf
09-17-2013, 05:30 PM
So it's a tap ability, then? :D

Nope, but sometimes it has the same results; feeling dizzy in the process ;)

The_Wine_Gnat
09-17-2013, 07:12 PM
Nope, but sometimes it has the same results; feeling dizzy in the process ;)

Ahahahaha. +1

Unhurtable
09-18-2013, 01:07 AM
I think the better question is why anyone would care about P2W on the PVE side of a game. I could care less if someone who gave Cryptozoic a bunch of money can beat a dungeon faster than I can.

Why would raiders in WoW care if they sold "Sword of Dragonslaying" with doubled DPS of the best non-money-acquired weapon in the game?

My point : Some people don't like P2W in competition.

Murmeldjuret
09-18-2013, 03:44 AM
They never explicitly said all was F2P or that PVP was not, so it's hard to point either way. I can see no false advertisement. It was more only stating the good parts. They said many times that PvE was entirely free to play. They didn't say PvP was mostly not, because it is a gray area. If you read the FAQ from the KS, they say that draft and tournament will have entry fees, which is definitely not F2P. So you can't really say the entire game is F2P. But for no cost you can download the client, enjoy 100s of hours PvE, and "play" PvP with the starter deck (I assume you can play regular 1v1 PvP with it). So while PvP isn't in my opinion F2P the game could definitely be called F2PMMOTCG. F2P is basically no puchase cost and play without subscription.

I think people overuse the term P2W. Even back in the older days of WoT when premium ammo only cost RWM, it wasn't really an issue since nobody used it. And no premium tank has really ever been the best tank, it has mostly been an easy to use good tank.
IS3>Lwe