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View Full Version : Limiting guilds to one faction? Why?



Ogodei
09-17-2013, 04:07 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that this is a horrible mistake?

So yet again, my guild will have to split up in a game (since we never can agree on one faction), effectively splitting the community in half. This can be especially painful for small communities or a few months after release, when the initial hype is over and there are less and less people online at a time, or for people playing outside peak times, etc. You get my point – it just makes things worse.

I hope this is false information, since I don't really see a reason for doing this. No point for PvE, since dungeons will be single player anyways and raids can have mixed groups it seems.

So why do it for PvP? To allow guild vs. guild tournaments that are also faction vs. faction?

Also I thought faction would depend on character (= champion?) and not account, which doesn't apply for PvP as I understood it. (You don't have a "character" for PvP right? Just pick a pre-designed champion and that's it?)

I also assumed guild membership (as well as friends lists etc) would be account- and not character-based (I loved how easy they handled this in GW2, there you could even join multiple guilds, while having to chose an "active" one to "represent" for each character, but being able to switch whenever you wanted – everything else seems like a step backwards from that evolutionary step imho)

Honestly I don't really get it, anyone care to explain what makes this necessary?

Shadowelf
09-17-2013, 05:12 AM
Background and info

You can run both factions into one account, and you can interact normally with opposite races; form guilds and raid together. The difference will be some faction specific quests and dungeons (http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 0:25:25 to 0:26:44)

The only dungeon (we know of) that will force you to choose and the choice will be account bound is the arena. there will be 2 pair of enemies battling out that will be rotating on a yearly basis, and once you choose to ally with one, you can't get the card associated with the other (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...ign-mpt=uo%3D4 episode 54 check 0:30:15)

As for faction specific quests, these will be champion bound, meaning that you will be able to complete all faction specific quests in one account (http://hextcg.com/exclamation-points...uestion-marks/)

You can use all the cards in your collection; there will be one master account and despite the race you will be using all the cards will be available to you (http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 check 0:25:25)

How i interpret it;

You can have both ardent and underworld champions in the same account. You can form guilds limited to underworld or ardent or form mixed guilds. If you want to help a buddy to a faction specific quest or dungeon(ardent for example), you have to log in with your ardent champion. Raids won't be faction specific, so you can you use both factions to raid with. Both keeps will share the same collection of cards (your account's collection). They haven't said how they intend the 2 keeps to work. It is possible that you will only be able to attack ardent keeps with your underworld champion and vice versa.

As for champions you can choose to ally with a faction with one character, then login with another and ally with the opposite faction. This way you can collect all faction specific rewards

Sources:

http://hextcg.com/exclamation-points-and-question-marks/ (faction specific quests being champion bound)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02nFYZLwdBc (faction specific quests being champion bound)
http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 check 0:25:45 to 0:28:00 (champion's for both sides, 2 keeps, everything played in one account)
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ (faction's interaction 0:33:00, 2 keeps 0:35:28)

hammer
09-17-2013, 05:41 AM
Great post ShadowElf - You-should-be and deserve-to-be a forum moderator. I hope your amazing efforts at cataloguing information and responding to questions in a balanced and informed manner is recognised with ModBot1 status soon enough!
Thank you

vickrpg
09-17-2013, 05:50 AM
Great info as always, Shadowelf. Hammer beat me to saying it though...

However, I don't feel the OP's problem was addressed in its entirety. And since it's a concern I share, could you help me out with a source for this?


You can have both ardent and underworld champions in the same account. You can form guilds limited to underworld or ardent or form mixed guilds.

I don't recall hearing about mixed guilds anywhere, and I do recall Cory stating you had to chose a faction for your guild somewhere(I am unable to quote sources at the moment, I apologize).
As a guild master backer, it would not be as fun if I had to force my guild to make underworld characters to enjoy my benefits/be with everyone else, even if they are able to do so easily, if they don't *want* to play that character as much as their ardent, they'd lose out on my 20%. That's why the faction limits (if they exist) are troubling.

Shadowelf
09-17-2013, 06:11 AM
Great post ShadowElf - You-should-be and deserve-to-be a forum moderator. I hope your amazing efforts at cataloguing information and responding to questions in a balanced and informed manner is recognised with ModBot1 status soon enough!
Thank you

Thank you :o



Here is the link http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:33:00. At around 0:33:20 he says that [...]we have a guild system that is fine what you faction is[...], then goes on and says that 'you can be ardent or underworld as far as that goes'. Yeah it's a bit confusing and i may interpreting this part wrong :confused:

But i sent them a ticket a couple of days ago, and i hope they care to clarify :)

Ogodei
09-17-2013, 06:27 AM
Thanks for trying to get some more light into this (I still don't quite get it though). I had the original information from this post: Dragon*Con PvE Panel - Presentation Notes (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=27347)


There WILL be Cross-Faction co-op in raids. Guilds will be limited to Ardent/Underworld, but raid groups can be mixed.

… which would make absolutely no sense.

Ratticus
09-17-2013, 07:48 AM
The dragon con panel that is being quoted said

"We have in PVE specifically a guild system that is by what your faction is so you would either be argent or you would be underworld as far as that goes but we also will just let you roll both."

I would read that as you can have both underworld and argent champions on the same account (roll both) but guilds are faction specific. I'd infer guilds are like MMO's were guild membership is champion (or more likely keep) based not account based which would also explain why they have PvP teams.

tautologico
09-17-2013, 07:53 AM
In World of Warcraft you can only have a guild with characters in the same faction. If everyone wants to play together, everyone must be either Horde or Alliance. Maybe it's the WoW influence.

Maphalux
09-17-2013, 07:55 AM
What CZE was saying on the panel is that you can raid with whomever you want, no matter their faction. But guilds are faction specific. However, you can roll both Ardent and Underworld characters on the same account so it wouldn't be like you were locked out of content because you wanted to be in a certain guild. Join your ardent guild and create another underworld character to experience that part of the story.

They did not mention mixed guilds at all. From what was said, it was clear that guilds will be specifically one faction or another. For what purpose, we don't know yet, but I'm sure they have a specific reason as to why they are doing this.

zadies
09-17-2013, 07:59 AM
We don't know how story/world progression is going to work.

If the go for something legend of the five rings esq then it makes sense to separate the factions.

Cazychel
09-17-2013, 08:09 AM
From a PVE standpoint it would be logical to seperate guilds into ardent and underworld, being able to raid mixed in general then runs contrary to that, though, and would only make sense in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" scenario, where you're forced to combine resources against a greater evil.

For PVP here, which is not intended as a faction vs. faction system, but as a full-fledged TCG tournament evironment, it does make absolutely no sense to limit a guild to one faction - especially, when different decks would need different champions ideally. I would like to have PVP guilds to discuss strategy with, test PVP decks and numbercrunch the statistics.

On this matter it would be interesting to know, how exactly Champions will work: When do you chose your champion? Can you switch the champion on any deck you've built? How does that work in a draft? Can I chose a champion after I drafted my cards or am I stuck with whatever champion I happened to log in with? Can you see the champions of the other drafters and guess what they will be drafting beforehand?

vickrpg
09-17-2013, 08:10 AM
The issue isn't being locked out of content, it is being locked out of social groups(guild) because of what faction you like to play more often.

Let's say I make an underworld guild, but my best friend likes to play ardent. He can't be in my guild unless he makes an underworld character and joins it, (and gets the KS rewarded XP boost only for his underworld character) This means that he has to play underworld to be in my guild, or I have to play Ardent to be in his. As far as KS rewards, this means i have to be in 2 guilds to get all of the benefits of the xp bonus, for example.

It is like the wow system, I was hoping it wouldn't be.

Maphalux
09-17-2013, 08:23 AM
@Cazychel: Guilds have nothing to do with PvP. There are going to be 8 man PvP teams that are external to guilds. Guilds are for PvE.

Enuncia
09-17-2013, 08:50 AM
From a PVE standpoint it would be logical to seperate guilds into ardent and underworld, being able to raid mixed in general then runs contrary to that, though, and would only make sense in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" scenario, where you're forced to combine resources against a greater evil.

For PVP here, which is not intended as a faction vs. faction system, but as a full-fledged TCG tournament evironment, it does make absolutely no sense to limit a guild to one faction - especially, when different decks would need different champions ideally. I would like to have PVP guilds to discuss strategy with, test PVP decks and numbercrunch the statistics.

On this matter it would be interesting to know, how exactly Champions will work: When do you chose your champion? Can you switch the champion on any deck you've built? How does that work in a draft? Can I chose a champion after I drafted my cards or am I stuck with whatever champion I happened to log in with? Can you see the champions of the other drafters and guess what they will be drafting beforehand?

Don't have a link for you, but I remember them saying that in Draft you have access to all available champions, and you choose your champion after drafting your cards, during the deck-build phase. This would mean (in my mind) you cannot see your opponent's champions (since doing so also would allow you to rifle through their deck).

Showsni
09-17-2013, 09:13 AM
Drafts won't use your own crafted PvE Champion, you'll be able to pick from any of the stock of regular PvP champions. And you'll pick during the deckbuilding stage (fairly sure).

So, this is my understanding...

The Keep is the top level of your account. For PvE play, you create champions based on gender and race, and as you play with them advance along skill trees, unlocking buffs and so on. You can freely create champions of any race/faction, so you could easily create an Ardent Human champion and an Underworld Shin'hare on the same account. Presumably it then has all the champions you create as being based out of your keep.

I'd assume that when joining a guild it's the account (that is, the Keep) that joins. Since Keeps can contain both Ardent and Underworld champions (again, I assume), I don't think guild will limit who can join.

Presumably, when they say guilds themselves are either Underworld or Ardent that means that when the guild is created the guildmaster chooses which faction the guild is aligned with, but if Keeps are neutral (again, assuming here) I don't think that would block anyone from joining; it would rather just be a broad alignment for the guild itself, useful in the case of things like potential guild wars. So, if all my assumptions are correct (big if!) I think you could happily roll a bunch of Ardent champs for your Keep, and then join an Underworld aligned guild. Maybe?

At least, I hope that guilds won't limit who can join based on factions. But since the keep is the top level of the account, and a single keep can create champions of both factions, I don't see how it can do so.

NoahBuddy
09-17-2013, 09:42 AM
if guilds are going to be faction specific i at least hope that there will not be anything stopping a guildmaster from creating two guilds, one of each faction and then unifying them on a separate guild site. that does seem like a pain in the butt and CZE said they want things easy (not as in game difficulty level). this really does need some clarification.

If the faction guilds come to be I vote Clan ArdentBlade and Clan UnderBlade. kinda has a nice ring to them.

Namiriel
09-17-2013, 09:47 AM
Faction specific guilds are dumb in a game built around pvp. Plus if they allow for both factions in a raid, then there's not any fluffy or mechanical balance issue that's at stake here.

Guilds are a social constraint to join up with similar people. Splitting every group in half for no reason is a bad idea.

Ogodei
09-17-2013, 09:49 AM
So if guilds are only for PvE purposes while we have only teams of 8 players max for PvP that would be … pretty damn weird. I still don't get why I would need guilds for PvE only, it should be a community above everything, for the WHOLE game.

I was hoping for stuff like scheduled guild-only tournaments and rankings, where you could define your own prizes and conditions etc. Things I can't do with a team of 8 people. A place to play with and AGAINST friends, meet new friends, exchange knowledge, trade cards, discuss the game – a community to have fun together.

I can't think of game mechanics that would really require to limit guilds to only one faction, that couldn't be solved in some other way without hurting the community in such a severe way. If they really need a fixed faction for a certain PvE thing – whatever that might be and which would only be a small portion of the game I'd think – why not require the guild to decide on a faction just for that small part of the game and allow only characters of that faction to participate in that specific activity.

I really don't like the idea of character-based membership that wouldn't allow me to talk in guild chat while leveling a champion of another faction (should I ever decide to do that).

Namiriel
09-17-2013, 09:57 AM
Yeah, basically destroying guild chat sounds awful.

Maphalux
09-17-2013, 10:12 AM
We have no idea why they made the faction restriction choice regarding guilds but we can assume there is some logic for it. Mr. Jones specifically said during the GC PvE panel that if they don't do what is easiest and most intuitive for the customer, they have to have a very good reason for doing so.

Maybe they will tell us what that reason is in the near future. Or perhaps that plan will change entirely. It is far too early and there is too little information for us to be sure about anything.

Rieper
09-17-2013, 10:33 AM
If guild are faction based and mostly PVe. That will be first letdown for me about the game. I would prefer guild just that a huge chat, with bank and few other guild features.

First off you want pvp and pve players in same guild with maybe "battlegroup" that people can join to make pvp teams on top. This means people can find each other across gametype and keep in touch with guildies or hell have a nice conversation if you opponent disconnect in a tournament(Go on guild chat while waiting on him to come back or waiting for next match).
Biggest advantage of this is, pve and pvp players keep in touch with each other, so if a pve needs someone for raid, maybe someone almost done with his draft can say "i am done in 5 min, if you wanna wait" and for pve players they more likely to get more decks in bank vault to test, which mean they also more likely to try a constructed game, since they don΄t need to build those expensive decks themself to even test it!

It is just a huge advantage all around with guild being for EVERYTHINg

Faction based guild = splitting community. Not sure what else to explain, so amazingly simpel to see that this splits community up. Look at world of warcraft, a friend you meet later in life might be on wrong faction. Now suddenly one if you have to leave a guild to play together or be in same chat. But nobody wants too, because they also some good friends with in they old guild. It is jsut a stupid annoyance. And unlike wow we do not have open world faction based combat, only thing that was close to that was castle defense. Now with us having both a ardent and underworld castle, thats gone too any way.
Also faction based stuff actually ends with some bad feelings. Hell the horde vs alliance feeling there is in wow at times is actually disguting to read.("For the horde" part never helped this feeling of hostillity there can be)

zadies
09-17-2013, 10:39 AM
Has no one actually followed how the legend of the five rings tournament outcomes effect that entire universes lore?
Right there if they do anything similar is a reason to have faction guild splits because the work you do for a side could in theory have a major impact on the game world.

Idus
09-17-2013, 02:39 PM
So if guilds are only for PvE purposes while we have only teams of 8 players max for PvP that would be … pretty damn weird. I still don't get why I would need guilds for PvE only, it should be a community above everything, for the WHOLE game.

I was hoping for stuff like scheduled guild-only tournaments and rankings, where you could define your own prizes and conditions etc. Things I can't do with a team of 8 people. A place to play with and AGAINST friends, meet new friends, exchange knowledge, trade cards, discuss the game – a community to have fun together.

I can't think of game mechanics that would really require to limit guilds to only one faction, that couldn't be solved in some other way without hurting the community in such a severe way. If they really need a fixed faction for a certain PvE thing – whatever that might be and which would only be a small portion of the game I'd think – why not require the guild to decide on a faction just for that small part of the game and allow only characters of that faction to participate in that specific activity.

I really don't like the idea of character-based membership that wouldn't allow me to talk in guild chat while leveling a champion of another faction (should I ever decide to do that).

Everything you've said I agree with 100%. Now maybe we're all soing a Chicken Little here, because we don't have enough info, but at least if we have the discussion and Crypto are watching, they can take our concerns into consideration before the system is set in stone.

Restrictions for specific story purposes may be fine, but general guild membership should be open to all, as people join guilds based on real life values, not whether they are playing with orcs or dwarves (except hardcore RP'ers, but I don't really see Hex being an RP magnet).

If split/dual guilds end up being the only answer, forgetting all the other issues of playing with who you want, how you want, this also doubles the administrative nightmare for guild leaders as well.

I just hope we're all reading too much into Cory's statement about guild faction alignment, and we can truly play whatever characters and decks we like within our guilds. I'm in a PvE guild, and have plans for many different guild events of our own creation, outside the PvE storyline, allowing members to play against each other with all sorts of crazy decks. If we now have some artificial blockage on the numebr of different event "designs" we can come up with, due to factional restrictions, I'll be very sad indeed.