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View Full Version : How would you feel about cryptozoic selling unused kickstarter packages?



Soldack
09-17-2013, 06:23 AM
I never heard of this game until after the kickstarter ended. I have donated for the slacker backer.

I noticed that in the kickstarter, there were higher end packages/tiers that went unsold.

How would the community feel if Cryptozoic sold just the remaining tiers that were available for any of you in the kickstarter but that it went unsold?

For example, at $250 there were 281 Collector Tiers unsold....

Shadowelf
09-17-2013, 06:31 AM
They said that they won't be selling KS tiers after KS ends. So no matter how the community feels about it, they won't do it

Fans have asked if we're going to continue the tier backers past the Kickstarter date. We will have a Slacker Backer option at $50 that offers the following:

1 Starter Deck ($10 value)
25 Booster Packs ($50 value)
2 months of VIP ($8 value)

We will not extend the individual tier rewards you see now past Friday at campaign close.

update #28 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts/501438?page=2#comments

Soldack
09-17-2013, 06:35 AM
I know they said they weren't planning to do it.

But, if they came out with a "due to unanticipated high demand..." and then offered just the UNSOLD stuff from the kickstarter, how would you feel about that is my question...

Shadowelf
09-17-2013, 06:37 AM
I know they said they weren't planning to do it.

But, if they came out with a "due to unanticipated high demand..." and then offered just the UNSOLD stuff from the kickstarter, how would you feel about that is my question...

Well to answer your question, they didn't sell GKs and PPs during the KS, while they knew that this could potentially double their KS money. Why sell KS tiers now?

As for how i feel about it, no problem from my part

Kami
09-17-2013, 06:44 AM
I think that ship has sailed. Currently, if they were to re-offer the unsold KS tiers, what would happen is many people will pay for them just to resell it later at a profit due to scarcity. You then increase the risk of scams and such as well.

Not to mention, it would be unfair to those who actually bought in early during the actual KS campaign. You'll also run into the same problem of how people 'missed' the resale.

I don't think it's a good idea to re-offer unclaimed KS tiers.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-17-2013, 06:54 AM
It would open a can of worms that shouldn't be opened - because slacker backer exists, if they suddenly decide to sell unsold (or rather, unpledged) Kickstarter tiers some SBs would rightfully be able to say "this is unfair on me, as I would have certainly not bought SB and gotten a collector/king/producer etc had it still been available, but it wasn't so I spent $50 to get SB, but now it is available so I'm effectively out $50".

MollDennTV
09-17-2013, 06:55 AM
I think that ship has sailed. Currently, if they were to re-offer the unsold KS tiers, what would happen is many people will pay for them just to resell it later at a profit due to scarcity. You then increase the risk of scams and such as well.

Not to mention, it would be unfair to those who actually bought in early during the actual KS campaign. You'll also run into the same problem of how people 'missed' the resale.

I don't think it's a good idea to re-offer unclaimed KS tiers.

I agree with you. I had only bought BS, since I had not heard of the game before KS was over. it's too bad, but to reopen up for sale again, it will be unfair to those who were quick

MoikPEI
09-17-2013, 07:01 AM
I kind of feel like the arguments for keeping backer tiers final is to protect scarcity for its own sake. I don't understand why the attribute of scarcity is desirable in and of itself, and needs to be protected/enforced. I feel it almost presumes people typically had a purchasing motivator of "no one else will ever have these afterward" among their reasons for backing. Not simply "this is my only chance to get these" but rather "it's pleasing that everyone else will miss out". Is part of kickstarter's intrinsic value its ability to provide schadenfreude? I have a feeling the validation/upside of protecting scarcity for its emotional value lies in collectability, but that's one motivation I don't understand myself and would need help with.

Kami
09-17-2013, 07:17 AM
The reason scarcity is important in this case isn't primarily because the KS backers want to feel special. It is because those who bought in early take on inherently more risk and this is a bonus for them.

You have to remember, this isn't like pre-ordering a completed or near-completed game. There wasn't much in terms of gameplay media and confirmed information during the KS either (until near the end, and even then, there was a lot of big information still missing and still is).

By offering the KS tiers now that the game looks like it will be 100% successful, you basically turn all the KS backers into guinea pigs. If it failed, well sucks to be a KS backer. Oh, it looks good now, I'll get on board with all the goodies for myself since there's no risk.

noragar
09-17-2013, 07:27 AM
As much as I would love to pick up another KS for myself, I think opening them back up would be a horrible idea.

The main reason is simply that they said they wouldn't. If a company starts going back on it's word before the game is even released, how much trust can we put in them in the future? I hope that anytime they say they will or won't do something that they stick by it barring a very unusual and catastrophic unforseen circumstance.

Further, how would it benefit CZE to sell more kickstarters? Certainly they were getting more bang for the buck in getting a pledge back in May/June than they would get by getting a pledge now. So would they account for that difference by raising the price of the KS, or by removing some of the rewards? I think either option would leave a bad taste in some percentage of people's mouths leading to more forum drama.

I also agree with the points made above about the Slacker Backer buyers and people buying up the additional KS for resale thus locking out many of the people who missed the original KS anyway.

MoikPEI
09-17-2013, 07:29 AM
I'm having a hard time reconciling that. I didn't personally feel there was a risk for backing Hex given the quality of the prototype displayed in the Kickstarter video. I did use it like a pre-order. I'm interpreting that argument to say it's more likely most backers were saying "probably CZE can't pull this off, I'll put some money in, just in case" than going "I want what I'm seeing".

Turtlewing
09-17-2013, 07:29 AM
How would the community feel if Cryptozoic sold just the remaining tiers that were available for any of you in the kickstarter but that it went unsold?


I would feel the decision reflects poorly on CZE's community management skills, financial foresight, and their integrity as a company.

The Kickstarter tiers were advertised as "exclusive" to that campaign, and at the time they announced Slacker Backer it should have been obvious that they could sell many more of certain Kickstarter tiers (including the "unsold" slots of existing ones). But they chose to make the statement that they would not extend the availability of those pledge packages.

As a digital game their perceived integrity is not an asset they can afford to squander as fundamentally they need to convince us that the bits we're buying access to are sufficiently similar to paper cards in scarcity and longevity that we can treat them similarly. And reversing a decision regarding the exclusivity of a limited time offer messes with that perception of value/integrity.

I would not mind them adding new packages with similar rewards, nor adding anything they didn't promise exclusivity on to Slacker Backer, and I'd love to see them make the currently un-tradable elements of the Kickstarter rewards trade-able, but outright flip-flopping on their stance regarding kickstarter exclusivity is something I don't think they should consider.

MoikPEI
09-17-2013, 07:40 AM
I would not mind them adding new packages with similar rewards

Grinding Gear Games has been doing this with Path of Exile. Seems like a good solution.
For me it comes down to an expectation that I won't be able to tell how many King or Grand King backers there are in-game, but I would notice the difference between a $2,000,000 game and a $3,000,000 one. I feel I'll gain more than I lose (nothing) by having more higher-pledge slacker backers.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-17-2013, 08:40 AM
If they were to ever consider it, they'd need to pretty much offer SBs a chance to upgrade their slacker backer to another tier if they so desire.

EntropyBall
09-17-2013, 08:43 AM
I don't think there is a financial incentive for them to offer these tiers at this point. Those tiers are all a big discount off the release prices, and with the alpha/beta right around the corner, people will soon be paying them real money. If the game is good, those slacker backers will be spending more than the initial $50, and CZE gets more money anyway. If they got an extra $1 million today, it probably wouldn't appreciably change the product you see at release (down the road, yes, but tough to convert money into progress that quickly in development). Keep in mind that they will be making money during the beta, since people will be able to buy platinum at that point. So they are only ~2 months from starting to bring in money outside of pledges.

Selix
09-17-2013, 09:12 AM
I would need a really good reason for them to open it up again. For me KS accounts have a real value although we don't know what that value is yet we can see already there is a demand should this game be good. And that is the investment right there. If this doesn't take off then we KS backers are out of luck but if it takes off......

OTOH I would not be against them starting an auction of the remaining (but only five per year) KS accounts at Hexcon. Each year they could auction of five randomly selected KS accounts from the limited tiers which would be a good way to set the market value of KS accounts in general.

Namiriel
09-17-2013, 09:51 AM
As someone who wanted a PP and got blown out by all the greedy people who made multiple KS accounts to hoard them, that sounds bad.

Umaro
09-17-2013, 10:20 AM
I'm a little biased on this subject. I desperately want a Pro Player tier (I know, they sold out), but don't want to play $500-600 and potentially get scammed out of it. I wish they sold KS tiers right up until Beta started, but I fully understand why they cut off that option when they did. The market would be absolutely flooded for the first few sets if they sold all of their KS tiers completely.

jetah
09-17-2013, 11:32 AM
I asked about CZE opening up more grand king tiers and they wouldn't. If CZE wanted the money they would have opened more of the 250+ tiers during KS.

Just because you see low numbers on KS could mean they were taken via PayPal.

Frank1397
09-17-2013, 12:14 PM
I bought most of my tiers using paypal. I think most off us did that

mudkip
09-17-2013, 01:33 PM
... if they came out with a "due to unanticipated high demand..." ...

Due to high demand they're going to sell stuff for cheaper? I don't see it happening ;)

Stick around though, there's A LOT of people who bought multiple backers, so you never know. I forsee a number of people who bought an extra King or less, skimming the packs then offloading the accounts with all of the exclusive merc, sleaves etc.

Vorpal
09-17-2013, 01:40 PM
I don't see any reason for them to do this

-selling discounted KS tiers after they've raised the money they need is just taking money out of their own wallet for no purpose
-going back on their promise that fans were buying a time limited exclusive offer causes ill will among fans

Since there are no good reasons for them to do this, I would look askance on them doing it, as it would indicate very poor judgement.

Shrennan
09-17-2013, 06:40 PM
In the completely unlikely, hypothetical scenario that CZE will suddenly decide to go against what they have said and sell the KS tiers and/or give away KS rewards then I would be pretty upset - if only because CZE had already said that they would not do such a thing. However, if they had never promised anything like that then I would have no reason to get upset. With that said, if they wanted to somehow reopen a new pledging system (even beyond the slacker backer rewards) then just make new rewards for that instead of reusing the ones from the KS.

Xtopher
09-17-2013, 07:04 PM
Probably a good number of them would go to people that already bought in to KS. I know I'd drop another $500 on a second account.

sukebe
09-17-2013, 07:08 PM
I would rather they did not do this for 2 reasons.

First: They specifically said that the kickstarter packages would only be available during the kickstarter campaign. Whether or not you agree with the whole scarcity = better issue it should be clear that an online TCG producer (or any company for that matter) should keep their word.

Second: I can almost guarantee that many of the kickstarter deals put up for sale like this would be purchased by those who intend to resell. I want to say I am against things like this but it is really hard for me to blame people who just want to make a bit of money. I am unemployed, unemployable, and broke and I would love the practically guaranteed money that buying some the remaining kickstarter tiers would allow me to make. The point I am trying to get at here is that the kickstarter tiers are way under priced for what they offer you and are very limited. It doesnt take a genius to see that people will take advantage of that if they can.

Just to be clear so I don't get any pms about selling my kickstarter tier, I will NOT be selling it :-) I have had to live with eating nothing but eggs, ramen and plain salad for far to long to give up my Grand King tier.

This actually brings me to another point. I only made these sacrifices because they said I would not be able to get this deal ever again. I would be a bit hurt to know that I could have spread the cost out over another 1 or two months but was not told. I only make $700 a month so it has been a big strain on my health and budget to get this but I did it anyway because I believe in this game and feel that I will save money with this purchase in the long run.

Just my $0.02, I know it is almost entirely opinion based but it is something I feel strongly about :-)

Black_Omega
09-17-2013, 07:57 PM
Don't see it happening. I think CZE knows it will alienate the KS backers. It will also 'diminish' the perceived value of the tiers available during the KS Campaign... and selling them at a 'reduced cost' would throw things into all kinds of hell I am sure.

Sure, a lot of us would love to get our hands on some more stuff (I'd love a Collector tier, I had to downsize my pledge due to some serious RL issues). But c'est la vie. There may be 'packaged deals' later on available through the Hex Market, who knows right?

knightofeffect
09-17-2013, 09:01 PM
It personally wouldn't hurt my feelings; I'd use the opportunity to try and get more friends into the game. I'm just for getting as many people into the game as possible, kinda the same reason I was against all the tier stacking; but that wasn't a popular opinion either =P.

funktion
09-17-2013, 09:14 PM
I don't see the benefit to do so on their end. I don't see the pros outweighing the cons. Additionally there is a cost that comes with being an "early adopter".

RECHiD
09-17-2013, 10:16 PM
I think that Cryptozoic selling the extra accounts would be perceived as a little unethical by the KS backers, but I could see them giving out some of the bonuses through tournaments, or community events. Rather than being seen as "just stuffing more money in their pockets," something like that could be seen more along of lines of "giving back to the community."

Also, if real money tournaments turn out to be a legal nightmare, or too expensive to be worth it on Cryptozoic's end, then they will need to come up with tournament rewards that are epic enough to get the players excited. Collector's Tier exclusives, discontinued PVE cards, or the likeness-on-a-card/design-a-card seem like awesome prizes to me.

sukebe
09-17-2013, 10:49 PM
It personally wouldn't hurt my feelings; I'd use the opportunity to try and get more friends into the game. I'm just for getting as many people into the game as possible, kinda the same reason I was against all the tier stacking; but that wasn't a popular opinion either =P.

I was also against the tier stacking. I would not have minded as much if there was a way to do it without making multiple accounts on kickstarter (which if not against ToS/user agreement is at the very least against the spirit of kickstarter I think). I would have preferred they allowed you to purchase multiple lower tiers through add ons but kept the limited tiers to one per person.

arastor
09-18-2013, 07:11 AM
I was also against the tier stacking. I would not have minded as much if there was a way to do it without making multiple accounts on kickstarter (which if not against ToS/user agreement is at the very least against the spirit of kickstarter I think). I would have preferred they allowed you to purchase multiple lower tiers through add ons but kept the limited tiers to one per person.

Actually you could purchase once through KS and once through PayPal without making extra accounts / violating ToS. That said, I thought it was a bad idea when I saw the whole thing get started. Opened up a whole big can o'worms. I guess it made Crypto plenty of money, so it probably turned out OK in the end though. The logistics of the whole thing are probably still a nightmare on Crypto's end.

Kami
09-18-2013, 07:16 AM
Actually you could purchase once through KS and once through PayPal without making extra accounts / violating ToS. That said, I thought it was a bad idea when I saw the whole thing get started. Opened up a whole big can o'worms. I guess it made Crypto plenty of money, so it probably turned out OK in the end though. The logistics of the whole thing are probably still a nightmare on Crypto's end.

It was an unintended oversight at the time. If I recall correctly, it was an innocent request from a forum user that kinda grew into a firestorm from there once people realized what that meant.

According to the most recent stats we've heard, out of over 19k backers, there are only roughly 14k unique backers. That means there are a good chunk of people pledging for others and/or multi-pledging for themselves.

The flip-side of this is that a good chunk of the account bound rewards will be even rarer since certain things don't stack.

Rydavim
09-18-2013, 03:13 PM
No matter what is said in this or any other thread, this will not happen.

Now that that's out of the way...

I suspect as far as community reaction goes negativity would come primarily from the fact that this hypothetical would mean that Cryptozoic went back on their word. Historically, not a good thing to do, especially before your product comes out. Sure, some people would complain that their precious is now not as valuable/special/whatever. But I think we're [i]mostly a pretty nice community, and I'd like to think we're above, "Neener neener, you can't have (x)."

Unfortunately, for those in the community who missed out on KS, I would wager money that Slacker Backer will remain the only pre-launch "package" option. It's possible they will add additional options after launch for folks looking to get into the game, but they will never offer any of the KS exclusives again.

I think Cryptozoic's integrity as a company was one of it's selling points when looking for funding for this game, and they're not going to want to diminish that trust.

kobisjeruk
09-19-2013, 02:39 AM
If Nike comes out with a campaign for a new Limited Edition AirWalk which made people camp out and lined up a day before release but then decided to change it to un-Limited a week after considering how much of a hit it was, what do you think will happen?

People will be furious, especially those who stand in line a day in advance. But more so that turn of event will smear Nike's image more than anything else.

KS isnt exactly in the same vein but in this matter, it kinda is.

Selix
09-19-2013, 07:24 AM
Honestly the best solution for this is for Crypto to somehow facilitate the actual transfer or sale of accounts.not just cards but actual whole accounts.that would just about solve this issue but Crypto probably wants to wait to see how popular the game is before investing in all of the resources required to deal with the ongoing legal ramifications of such and similar actions.

Soldack
09-19-2013, 07:45 AM
If Nike comes out with a campaign for a new Limited Edition AirWalk which made people camp out and lined up a day before release but then decided to change it to un-Limited a week after considering how much of a hit it was, what do you think will happen?

People will be furious, especially those who stand in line a day in advance. But more so that turn of event will smear Nike's image more than anything else.

KS isnt exactly in the same vein but in this matter, it kinda is.

Umm NO. If Nike made the limited run, and sold say, 600 pairs of the 1000 pairs. What do they do later with the 400 unsold pairs?

I was asking how you would feel if crypto sold the UNSOLD KS packages that were offered in limited quantities and went unsold, like the $250 collector tier that I want...

majin
09-19-2013, 08:07 AM
I was asking how you would feel if crypto sold the UNSOLD KS packages that were offered in limited quantities and went unsold, like the $250 collector tier that I want...

then most of the 14k unique KS backers will feel betrayed that something exclusive isn't exclusive anymore.

i understand why others want this as they are late to the party but it will break the great bond the CZE made with the community by being honest and making this a "fan first game"

yes, you can argue that those who are late are fans too but they already promised that the KS tiers won't be offered again and there had already been a lot of suggestions for a better slacker backer (I personally want them to offer $125 slacker backer but not as grand as the king tier) but this will never happen

if they do this, then they will just be another money-hungry company but they are not which is why we believe in them and backed them with that much money during the KS period

Xtopher
09-19-2013, 08:45 AM
I've thought all along that once we get post-beta, there are a number of sweet deals that CZE could offer to everyone, not just people that missed out of KS. And, I'm sure there will be. So, please be patient.

Diesbudt
09-19-2013, 10:12 AM
Umm NO. If Nike made the limited run, and sold say, 600 pairs of the 1000 pairs. What do they do later with the 400 unsold pairs?

I was asking how you would feel if crypto sold the UNSOLD KS packages that were offered in limited quantities and went unsold, like the $250 collector tier that I want...

1) Since this is digital, there is no such thing as this happening. There product doesn't exist. It is like Pre-ordering Nike. They say they will take pre-orders ONLY for the 1,000 of the shoe they are willing to make. However will only make them on the pre-order. Thus if only 750 pre-order. Only 750 is made. Not 1000. And once the deadline is over, that is that.

2) They have said they will keep to their word and not reopen them. This is important to stay this way for the integrity of the company on a new Game being made.

3) Right now is the status quo. Changing anything will affect said status quo. Right now, its everyone is accepted and only a few feel really bad/shafted. However if they flip on said status quo, this would cause a lot more people to complain/dislike the new situation. Thus it is smarter to stay as is, especially after saying they will not be available anymore after the end of the campaign.

4) They also feel they put too much into each tier, and fear that may hurt the game during set 1. Having more grabbed will just worsen the situation, and thus would be wise not to "sell" those tiers anymore, to damn up the rivers now instead of letting constant water flowing in over their heads.

thegreybetween
09-19-2013, 11:03 AM
I'm a Slacker Backer who found the game after the campaign closed, or else I would have jumped on a better pledge. But while I'd love a crack at them again, in truth I value integrity more. Crypto says "No way", then I expect "no way". If they were to open the pledges back up, it would be going back on their word, and that is an ominous portent for the future of this game.

So live with the SB package, and know that the future of the game is in good hands. You'll feel much better about jumping into a bigger pre-order purchase when the next set comes out.

On a related note, though: All of the KS-exclusive content is going to make life interesting for slacker collectors like myself. If any of you KS backers have plans to offload your "Mooof" mercenary, shoot me a message.

majin
09-19-2013, 11:33 AM
On a related note, though: All of the KS-exclusive content is going to make life interesting for slacker collectors like myself. If any of you KS backers have plans to offload your "Mooof" mercenary, shoot me a message.

you will need someone who will give/sell you the account after they traded everything else as these are account bound. gl

thegreybetween
09-19-2013, 11:37 AM
you will need someone who will give/sell you the account after they traded everything else as these are account bound. gl

Balls.

Oh well. At least the mercs I do manage to collect should be cool, then.

SuperPueppi
09-19-2013, 12:42 PM
While I would of course use the opportunity to get a king tier or so, I would actually just do so because I will be spending as much on the game anyway and thus I could get more bang for my bucks. We know that this is not going to happen though, so I thought it might be more worthwile to explain how I feel about being late to the party:

I am SB too, and after being a bit upset learning that the KS was already over, actually I don't mind much having missed out on them anymore, given that CZ did a great job in designing the exclusives and given that it will be next to impossible to collect everything in the game anyway (i.e. even the highest KS tiers don't get all sleeves and among the 17k backers only a fraction went for the higher tiers I would assume, mercenaries already said to be impossible to get them all) - which has been my primary "upset-reason" anyway.

The really nice aspect of the KS exclusives even for me as a SB is that I actually will either not see them at all (as PvE is mostly solo) or they will actually help me achieve my goal (as in a raid). Potentially another advantage of the dTCG, being easy to avoid ppl who want to rub in your face that they "got more" or were earlier in the game.

The exception might be keep defending, however we will just have to wait for how this actually works - I would assume that the exclusive cards are either banned for this part of the game or at least those that have written "free entry to any keep" written all over them (lotusses...).

On the upside I am quite happy that I am still that early in the game (still regretting a bit that I only started with MtG in Revised) and if HEX sticks around for a couple of years even we SB will have our share of exclusives, once set 1 goes out of rotation.

In a slighter longer version here is my breakdown of what SB missing out on and how I feel about it - which might serve as some consolation for other SB too.

Looking at it from "what am I missing out on?" perspective there is (based on king and above):

- 11 PVE exclusive cards: some of them quite powerful, and given that you could potentially get your hands on 4 of them through trading we even might end up seeing decks that are centered around the stronger oney like the silvan enchanter them have an easier life in beating some of the PvE content. Lotus Garden is obviously the most hurting thing there, however the PvE Content has to be beatable without it obviously so I am up for the challenge there ;)
So basically I am missing out on a bit of flexibility in PvE deck construction and variance in gameplay experience.
- 5 alternate art PVP cards: not missing out on anything there if not from a collector's perspective
- 8 additional PvE mercenaries, some powerful, but most rather feel like "fun" mercenaries, so again, some of them might give an advantage to certain PvE situations, but not gamebreaking
- 1 exclusive Starter Deck: not sure there, but I would assume that while the deck is exclusive, the cards are not, so you can just get them through other means

Except for the Mercenaries everything it theoretically possible to obtain through trading. Time will tell if so and at which cost (but if you are really trying to get your hand on anything, $$$ should be a secondary concern for you anyway ;) )

I am skipping on the rest of the stuff like additional loot, extra XP and such, as most of it is (while nice of course) obtainably by simply playing the game more or just providing you with cost saving opportunities (e.g. loads of boosters at half price, although we will have to see how much of that saving actually comes through depending on AH prices).
And yes, there's even a bit more exclusive things in the top tiers, but paying 500$+ for an unreleased game is at least for me unrealistic unless drunk and having just received my yearly bonus - even though I am prepared to spend quite a bit of money on this one.