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View Full Version : I tried explaining Hex to a friend and got shot down..



Mooglewut
09-18-2013, 06:38 AM
(First post here; everyone seems relatively friendly when the trolls aren't lurking ._.)

So, I was explaining to a 'friend' (more so a DotA buddy) what Hex in it's essence is, what it's about, and some of the features, such as the PvP and PvE elements, keeps, raids and dungeons, etc.

He shot me down pretty quickly, saying that in his mind, the whole point of a TCG or CCG was the social element, face to face playing, reading your opponent..

I wanted to try and defend Hex by pushing the digital-only benefits, like only needing a few of the same card to put them in an infinite number of decks, or the 'double back', and the PvE and equipment elements.

His reply, again, was saying that the whole thing sounded like a rip-off of MTG.. He continually assaulted the digital assets being gimmicky.

I don't really know what to say to him about the game after that conversation. I wonder if there are many people that feel the way he does. Personally, I found the game late and put in for the 'Slacker Backer' and I couldn't be more excited for the alpha to start. This game will ideally be the one that breaks my 1,400 hour DotA streak.

What do you guys think? Have you met anyone who is AGAINST the idea of a digital TCG?

Kami
09-18-2013, 06:47 AM
Uh... my only comment in regards to the 'social' element is that it is still a social game. You can't really play a match without another player (excluding AI). It is inherently built-in to the game, regardless of being physically there or not.

You can still read your opponent but it is slightly different. Bluffing, stalling, etc. are all there.

Besides, if digital is a gimmick, explain MTGO... where it accounts for around 30-50% of WotC's revenue for the Magic franchise.

If he doesn't like it, nothing wrong with it imo. His choice.

The only major complaints I've heard of for digital TCGs typically have nothing to do with social aspects; they primarily deal with the lack of tangible items (i.e. physical cards).

MoikPEI
09-18-2013, 06:49 AM
One of my cousins is like that about board games, loves playing them for those same social element, face to face playing, reading your opponent, seeing reactions type reasons. He doesn't really play video games much at all though. I can't think of anyone who's a big video game player that has a specific genre they won't do electronically but will in real life.

Hemotherapy
09-18-2013, 06:58 AM
I've been trying to get some friends of mine to play the game too. Recently tried explaining it to a friend that use to play MtG a long time ago and enjoyed it, I told him about Hex and tried to do my best to describe it but I don't think I did a good job on it...Still pending a yay or nay.

I wish I had a way to just sit cory down with my group of friends so they can get hyped like I can about the game!


I think Cory said it best when he said something to the tune of that of course it's similar to magic, they invented the genre, everything is going to be like magic in one way or another.

It's like someone saying your wheel is a rip off of the guy that invented the wheel...You can't really change it all that much than how it looks and how big or small it is, can't really mess with perfection!

lite
09-18-2013, 06:58 AM
i pad/laptop ftw :p

Mooglewut
09-18-2013, 06:59 AM
Thanks for your input so far, guys. I think I'll link him to this thread so he can see what and why other people feel the same way I do about the game!(:

Hemotherapy
09-18-2013, 07:02 AM
Thanks for your input so far, guys. I think I'll link him to this thread so he can see what and why other people feel the same way I do about the game!(:

Good luck! I've only really pushed 1 person really hard to play with me, the others I just linked the kickstarter to them (back when it was still open) and I figured they' be morons to not jump on this with me! Silly me thinking the kickstarter video that sold me would sell them...

I've never been that friend that said "Hey we should check out this game", never. Because I've never had a game that I've played outside the group that was just amazing. And now I feel like CZE has bottled lightning and I'm trying to tell everyone about it but no ones listening. MMO TCG should be all I have to say!

Mooglewut
09-18-2013, 07:07 AM
Good luck! I've only really pushed 1 person really hard to play with me, the others I just linked the kickstarter to them (back when it was still open) and I figured they' be morons to not jump on this with me! Silly me thinking the kickstarter video that sold me would sell them...

I've never been that friend that said "Hey we should check out this game", never. Because I've never had a game that I've played outside the group that was just amazing. And now I feel like CZE has bottled lightning and I'm trying to tell everyone about it but no ones listening. MMO TCG should be all I have to say!

I'm generally not one to push new games on my group, either, until Planetside 2 released! I said "MMO FPS GUYS, COME ON!!!!!"..

That didn't turn out nearly as well as I'd hoped, so people don't listen to me so often anymore ):

Xenavire
09-18-2013, 07:45 AM
Since there will be a free to play aspect, any naysayers now are likely too stubborn or too stupid to say they will try it. Sadly, those people might never change their minds, but anyone who actually gets their hands on the game will more than likely change the tune they are singing.

Just tell them they can try it for free someday, and if they still complain, ignore them in the meantime. When it is open to all comers, bring it up again, bring along a laptop or tablet, or get them over to your place and make them try it. If they still say no, then they are likely never going to concede that the game is worthwhile.

Chiany
09-18-2013, 07:54 AM
Just show them Alpha in 2 weeks, if they still don't want to play, than no harm done.
It's hard to explain something when you can't show it to them.

Yasi
09-18-2013, 07:56 AM
Just show them Alpha in 2 weeks, if they still don't want to play, than no harm done.
It's hard to explain something when you can't show it to them.

Show them Magic the Gathering. Then show them Hearthstone. Done.

Thunderbringer
09-18-2013, 08:06 AM
Hey there!

I had exactly the same reaction from my MtG friends. ALL OF THEM except one denied the game almost instantly. I believe this denial is similar to people not wanting to give up WoW. They have invented so much all those years in the game they are reluctant to try something new.

My opinion? Their loss.. ;-)

Kami
09-18-2013, 08:29 AM
Please keep things civil and on topic. >_>

Xenavire
09-18-2013, 08:35 AM
Please keep things civil and on topic. >_>

Excuse me, but I was not being insulting, I was being informative. Yasi is an obvious troll, and Hearthstone will turn off Magic players if you try to tell them Hex is similar.

And I believe it was entirely on topic, as I was advising against poor advice.

Mooglewut
09-18-2013, 08:36 AM
I do plan on streaming Alpha footage once the alpha is live, so maybe them seeing that will change some minds.

Shrennan
09-18-2013, 08:37 AM
The only major complaints I've heard of for digital TCGs typically have nothing to do with social aspects; they primarily deal with the lack of tangible items (i.e. physical cards).

That's mainly the complaints I've heard regarding a digital TCG - if the game shuts down, the cards go away or the physical cards will always have more value than the digital cards (this one isn't really true).

Anyway, I'm actually more excited about Hex being a digital TCG in part because the cards are digital. No clutter for my collection!

As for the topic at hand, I don't think there's really much you can do right now to convince your friend otherwise. One thing you may be able to do to change his mind is to show him the game being played once it becomes available to the public.

blakegrandon
09-18-2013, 08:47 AM
I have friends that swore they watched Hex gameplay and refuse to check it out... The problem is they insisted they watched gameplay footage BEFORE there was even gameplay footage!

At some point I just gave up, if people want to check it out they'll check it out, otherwise it's their loss.

Aerensiniac
09-18-2013, 09:28 AM
So, I was explaining to a 'friend' (more so a DotA buddy)
Trying to explain something to a DotA player was your first mistake ;)

He shot me down pretty quickly, saying that in his mind, the whole point of a TCG or CCG was the social element, face to face playing, reading your opponent..
And this made it obvious that he has no clue what he is talking about and comparing TCG to poker.
Your expression wont change your hand nor can you bluff with it.

His reply, again, was saying that the whole thing sounded like a rip-off of MTG.. He continually assaulted the digital assets being gimmicky.Yes, and as we all know call of duty is a rip-off of doom with gimmicky game play.

What do you guys think? Have you met anyone who is AGAINST the idea of a digital TCG?
There are two major downsides to digital TCG in my eye:
1. The possibility for the developers to screw with the cards after they have been released (where as hard print cards were something that had to be tought about before being released) and with that potentially ruining the value of items in the classic nerfing circle jerk.

2. The lack of feel and smell of cards.
I remember sorting, putting everything into deck protectors and what not was all part of the feel.

As far as social goes, i disagree and i find it quite the irony to hear a "social" argument from a dota player which is like 4chan complaining about trolls. I've been around dota ever since it shoved up on Warcraft and its one of those games with a legendary **** community and the collection of most antisocial people that ever existed.
Thats that.

Yasi
09-18-2013, 09:53 AM
Well for me, I will never ever play a TCG in real life at a card shop and the only reason I will be playing Hex is because it is a digital game. Also the only reason I am playing Hex is because it is a blatant copy of MTG because I have wanted to play MTGO for over a year now and have watched people play it on Twitch over the past year but I don't wan't to invest money into such a shitty company.

Same here. When I was a kid 8 years ago I wanted to play Magic the Gathering Online but it cost money and I don't have money.

stiii
09-18-2013, 10:02 AM
That's mainly the complaints I've heard regarding a digital TCG - if the game shuts down, the cards go away or the physical cards will always have more value than the digital cards (this one isn't really true).

Anyway, I'm actually more excited about Hex being a digital TCG in part because the cards are digital. No clutter for my collection!

As for the topic at hand, I don't think there's really much you can do right now to convince your friend otherwise. One thing you may be able to do to change his mind is to show him the game being played once it becomes available to the public.

Yeah you only need to look at any number of dead TCGs to see the only difference is between your stuff being worthless and very slightly better than worthless.

stiii
09-18-2013, 10:05 AM
Besides, if digital is a gimmick, explain MTGO... where it accounts for around 30-50% of WotC's revenue for the Magic franchise.



I am reasonable certain that it is 30-50% of the US magic market. Which is still quite a bit of course.

HyenaNipples
09-18-2013, 10:38 AM
Your friend's opinions are valid because he describes every other digital TCG that exists.

To convince him that Hex is fundamentally different, seeing will be believing.

Vorpal
09-18-2013, 10:45 AM
It sounds to me like this is an instinctive reaction, not a position arrived at after long and sober reasoning.

You are unlikely to be able to 'logic' him into liking it.

Your best bet is probably to play it with him face to face. Or team up and go on a dungeon raid together, while being in the same physical space. If that gets him hooked, he'll probably get over his initial objection. Which is a bit nonsensical anyway. He plays dota, that has just as little social interaction as he claims HEX would have.

Yasi
09-18-2013, 10:48 AM
It sounds to me like this is an instinctive reaction, not a position arrived at after long and sober reasoning.

You are unlikely to be able to 'logic' him into liking it.

Your best bet is probably to play it with him face to face. Or team up and go on a dungeon raid together, while being in the same physical space. If that gets him hooked, he'll probably get over his initial objection. Which is a bit nonsensical anyway. He plays dota, that has just as little social interaction as he claims HEX would have.

What if Hex is just a terrible game...? Maybe OP should just leave his friend alone? A dTCG isn't for everyone :/ Especially when you have to spend money to even remotely be able to compete in PvP.

RanaDunes
09-18-2013, 10:49 AM
I prefer playing MTGO (over physical cards) when playing against my friend who's usually just sitting next to me.

stiii
09-18-2013, 11:05 AM
It sounds to me like this is an instinctive reaction, not a position arrived at after long and sober reasoning.

You are unlikely to be able to 'logic' him into liking it.

Your best bet is probably to play it with him face to face. Or team up and go on a dungeon raid together, while being in the same physical space. If that gets him hooked, he'll probably get over his initial objection. Which is a bit nonsensical anyway. He plays dota, that has just as little social interaction as he claims HEX would have.

As opposed to all the long and sober reasoning that people have used to conclude that Hex will be great?

Auriok
09-18-2013, 11:18 AM
i would rather play on reallife tcg but allways i cant thats why i choose hex so i can play sometimes tcg.

Hemotherapy
09-18-2013, 11:39 AM
Besides, if digital is a gimmick, explain MTGO... where it accounts for around 30-50% of WotC's revenue for the Magic franchise.

Not really a digital gimmick, on MTGO if you get a full set of cards you can trade in the digital versions for IRL versions IIRC

Xenavire
09-18-2013, 11:44 AM
Not really a digital gimmick, on MTGO if you get a full set of cards you can trade in the digital versions for IRL versions IIRC

Which also bumps up the cost of the boosters. Hex can beat that price point by miles, meaning for a purely digital experience it is far better.

And having a nearly complete set of cards in MtGO does nothing for you, and cashing out means your progress is lost ingame (at least, I would think so, if someone has information to clarify I would like to see it.) So the cross format features only help if you are investing money into digital and physical (unless you only care about collecting, in which case the digital nature does make it easier.)

Yasi
09-18-2013, 11:46 AM
Too much biased shenanigans in this thread. Can't we all just agree to disagree whatever we're talking about?

jetah
09-18-2013, 11:48 AM
(First post here; everyone seems relatively friendly when the trolls aren't lurking ._.)

So, I was explaining to a 'friend' (more so a DotA buddy) what Hex in it's essence is, what it's about, and some of the features, such as the PvP and PvE elements, keeps, raids and dungeons, etc.

He shot me down pretty quickly, saying that in his mind, the whole point of a TCG or CCG was the social element, face to face playing, reading your opponent..

I wanted to try and defend Hex by pushing the digital-only benefits, like only needing a few of the same card to put them in an infinite number of decks, or the 'double back', and the PvE and equipment elements.

His reply, again, was saying that the whole thing sounded like a rip-off of MTG.. He continually assaulted the digital assets being gimmicky.

I don't really know what to say to him about the game after that conversation. I wonder if there are many people that feel the way he does. Personally, I found the game late and put in for the 'Slacker Backer' and I couldn't be more excited for the alpha to start. This game will ideally be the one that breaks my 1,400 hour DotA streak.

What do you guys think? Have you met anyone who is AGAINST the idea of a digital TCG?

tell your friend to grab a tablet and play at a card shop!!

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-18-2013, 11:50 AM
In terms of your friend, I'd wait until you get your alpha access, play around with it a bit, and then show him. He might really enjoy it, though if he's really enjoy Magic and has money in that he may not want to ditch. For me personally, I like Hex because it's a lot like Magic, with some nice innovations and a good engine, and I can get in on the ground floor. When I found out about the KS I had actually been considering getting back into competitive Magic but was hesitant due to the investment involved, but then I found out about Hex and I've been happy to have made the switch ever since.

I haven't actually told many of my friends about Hex though. Given that it's part MMO, I feel like they'd be overly concerned about me, given that I had issues with playing WoW in the mid-naughties. But at the very least I'll be playing a lot with my bro which is nice.

Hemotherapy
09-18-2013, 11:50 AM
Which also bumps up the cost of the boosters. Hex can beat that price point by miles, meaning for a purely digital experience it is far better.

And having a nearly complete set of cards in MtGO does nothing for you, and cashing out means your progress is lost ingame (at least, I would think so, if someone has information to clarify I would like to see it.) So the cross format features only help if you are investing money into digital and physical (unless you only care about collecting, in which case the digital nature does make it easier.)


I don't see how that would raise the price of boosters IRL, at the bulk rate they're churning out cards it wouldn't take much effort at all to print a full set, they probably just eat that WHEN it happens because it's probably very rare that it does.

It's nice to have it to be able to transition from digital to real life when you want to. Your taste in how you play the game may change, or you may just want to cash out and be done, but want something to have and hold as a reminder of your time you had in the game that may or may not be worth something some day IRL.

Xenavire
09-18-2013, 11:51 AM
Too much biased shenanigans in this thread. Can't we all just agree to disagree whatever we're talking about?

I don't see that much bias. And the whole topic is about bias - having a little may show the OP how he can argue against it.

But I think the OP has got everything he needs right now. If none of the suggestions work, then he can come back for more advice if he still wants to try.



I don't see how that would raise the price of boosters IRL, at the bulk rate they're churning out cards it wouldn't take much effort at all to print a full set, they probably just eat that WHEN it happens because it's probably very rare that it does.

It's nice to have it to be able to transition from digital to real life when you want to. Your taste in how you play the game may change, or you may just want to cash out and be done, but want something to have and hold as a reminder of your time you had in the game that may or may not be worth something some day IRL.

No, I meant it pumps up the price of the digital boosters. If not for the cash out, it could be quite cheap (easily able to match Hex.)

Hemotherapy
09-18-2013, 11:54 AM
I don't see that much bias. And the whole topic is about bias - having a little may show the OP how he can argue against it.

But I think the OP has got everything he needs right now. If none of the suggestions work, then he can come back for more advice if he still wants to try.




No, I meant it pumps up the price of the digital boosters. If not for the cash out, it could be quite cheap (easily able to match Hex.)


I wouldn't put it past them to do that, but I think the online boosters are the same cost of the IRL ones, atleast that's how it was years and years ago when I played when it was first released.


Too much biased shenanigans in this thread. Can't we all just agree to disagree whatever we're talking about?

Coming from the biased shenaniganer...

Xenavire
09-18-2013, 12:00 PM
I wouldn't put it past them to do that, but I think the online boosters are the same cost of the IRL ones, atleast that's how it was years and years ago when I played when it was first released.


My point exactly - they could easily drop the price of their boosters if they didn't need to keep the value the same as physical cards (the cash out.) Because they have the cash out, they have no choice but to keep the booster prices up, meaning Hex can easily beat them in value if you only plan to play digitally. If you play physically too, then you are already paying a set amount, and if you are guaranteed what you want through careful collection, then digital would be a viable way to collect those cards.

The hitch is competetive players tend to just buy singles that they need, having a collection would not do them much good. Hence why I said it is better for collectors (who would benefit just as much from lower prices, if they dont mind not having a physical copy.)

I forget my original point now, but MtGO falls short of what Hex can do as a purely digital TCG, but is a fine option for someone who is already playing MTG.

BongoBong
09-18-2013, 12:18 PM
It sounds to me like this is an instinctive reaction, not a position arrived at after long and sober reasoning.

You are unlikely to be able to 'logic' him into liking it. .

Or he just doesn't like what he sees. Nothing wrong with that, whatever his reasons are.


Your best bet is probably to play it with him face to face. Or team up and go on a dungeon raid together, while being in the same physical space. If that gets him hooked, he'll probably get over his initial objection. Which is a bit nonsensical anyway. He plays dota, that has just as little social interaction as he claims HEX would have

But there is no physical alternative of dota to play, so not really analogous. It would be trying to say to people that prefer reading physical books over ebooks that because they read websites on the internet it doesn't make sense for them to prefer physical books.

Vorpal
09-18-2013, 12:46 PM
Or he just doesn't like what he sees.

He hasn't seen it yet. friend isn't trying to convince him that he should like Hex after he played it and didn't like it - his friend is trying to convince him to give it a shot in the first place.


But there is no physical alternative of dota to play, so not really analogous.

Well there's not going to be a physical alternative of HEX to play either.

Niedar
09-18-2013, 12:52 PM
I don't think it is true that they have to keep the digital boosters price high, they could just increase the cost of redemption but this is wotc we are talking about here. I don't think mtgo needs set redemption though and it should be removed entirely imo.

Hemotherapy
09-18-2013, 12:54 PM
My point exactly - they could easily drop the price of their boosters if they didn't need to keep the value the same as physical cards (the cash out.) Because they have the cash out, they have no choice but to keep the booster prices up, meaning Hex can easily beat them in value if you only plan to play digitally. If you play physically too, then you are already paying a set amount, and if you are guaranteed what you want through careful collection, then digital would be a viable way to collect those cards.

The hitch is competetive players tend to just buy singles that they need, having a collection would not do them much good. Hence why I said it is better for collectors (who would benefit just as much from lower prices, if they dont mind not having a physical copy.)

I forget my original point now, but MtGO falls short of what Hex can do as a purely digital TCG, but is a fine option for someone who is already playing MTG.

I see what you're saying, it's give and take for sure. I like the idea of being able to trade in my cards for real life versions though at some point even though there is no IRL version of hex. It just would be nice to have my favorite cards that I can hold on to log past the time where the machines take over and they repurpose the hex servers for other things, that way I can still have something for my money at the end of the day when I'm in the trenches fighting the terminators

Niedar
09-18-2013, 12:56 PM
I see what you're saying, it's give and take for sure. I like the idea of being able to trade in my cards for real life versions though at some point even though there is no IRL version of hex. It just would be nice to have my favorite cards that I can hold on to log past the time where the machines take over and they repurpose the hex servers for other things, that way I can still have something for my money at the end of the day when I'm in the trenches fighting the terminators

Of course since there is no physical version of Hex they could just sell them at very little markup and not require you to have an entire set of cards. Any card you want a print version of you could get. It wouldn't be worth anything but it would be physical card.

BongoBong
09-18-2013, 12:58 PM
He hasn't seen it yet. friend isn't trying to convince him that he should like Hex after he played it and didn't like it - his friend is trying to convince him to give it a shot in the first place.

So what? Everyone needs to try everything someone says is good? If he knows what he sees doesn't interest him, why bother trying. I know I wouldn't like ringette, why would I bother trying it? Sure, there will be times where someones mind is changed, but who cares. Let them make their own decisions about it and get over it.


Well there's not going to be a physical alternative of HEX to play either.

There are very similar physical games you can play. Theres no real physical alternative to the internet.

Hemotherapy
09-18-2013, 01:00 PM
Of course since there is no physical version of Hex they could just sell them at very little markup and not require you to have an entire set of cards. Any card you want a print version of you could get. It wouldn't be worth anything but it would be physical card.


Would be a nice thing to do, but I don't think they've mentioned *yet* that they were interested in doing that at some point.

Shrennan
09-18-2013, 01:11 PM
Yeah you only need to look at any number of dead TCGs to see the only difference is between your stuff being worthless and very slightly better than worthless.

Well, you can play it but if it's dead you likely won't have many people to play it with. I've trashed my entire collection of cards from dead TCGs over the years because there was nothing I could do with them.

There may be other reasons for people to keep old cards from dead TCGs, but for me personally there really isn't. Once the game is essentially dead (I can't find anyone to play with) and the cards have lost their value, then I pretty much have no issue with getting rid of my collection. The only thing that I could think of that I would remotely miss would be cards that have a nostalgic memory. That is something that cannot be replicated by digital TCGs when they die.

sukebe
09-18-2013, 01:13 PM
Aerensiniac Said: lots of stuff

Response: MTG is very much like poker. While bluffing cannot change what you have in your hand, it can change how your opponent plays against you. Many great MTG players do very well in poker tournaments and vice versa. Bluffing and reading your opponent is a huge part of the game. It is not entirely lost to the digital realm though. While you can't fake an expression you can wait a bit longer to pass priority if they play something while you are in saphire with mana open. This could imply you have a counter and might make your opponent a bit more cautious. There are many more examples but that is not what this topic is for :-)

Xenavaire said:And having a nearly complete set of cards in MtGO does nothing for you, and cashing out means your progress is lost ingame (at least, I would think so, if someone has information to clarify I would like to see it.)

response: Actually most people who would cash out sets in MTGO get those sets by either putting them together through drafts or buying them with money made from selling packs/singles from drafts. So they loose little or even nothing for converting their cards from digital to physical. In fact, I recently learned that it is cheaper to put together a set of cards in MTGO and then pay to turn them into physical cards than it is to simply buy the physical sets from online vendors. Wish I knew this before when I was spending so much on MTG :-)

Hemotherapy said: I don't see how that would raise the price of boosters IRL, at the bulk rate they're churning out cards it wouldn't take much effort at all to print a full set, they probably just eat that WHEN it happens because it's probably very rare that it does.

Response: It doesnt raise the price of RL boosters, it makes it so that they do not sell booster packs in MTGO for less than they do real booster packs. Also, there are entire businesses that sell sets of MTG that they get from MTGO and convert to RL cards so it happens very often.


Response to OP: I agree with others when they say your best bet is wait until Alpha starts and show the game off to him then. Might want to wait a bit after alpha starts as there may very well be bugs at first and you wouldnt want to let him focus on those instead of the normal gameplay.

nicosharp
09-18-2013, 01:24 PM
I think Cory has mentioned in interviews that Hex was built with the TCG player in-mind that has aged a few years since the early magic days, and has a family and responsibilities that hinder their ability to play in local card shops with friends.

Moving a social card game to a digital platform allows people with competing priorities and geographical challenges to play with friends at their convenience. This takes the commute, the scheduling, the missed family time and the storage issues away from the previous TCG players logistical challenges.

There are other aspects of the game that encourage social interaction, but of course it is never the same as making friends and socializing / hanging out with people IRL. Sadly, it is very challenging for many people to do this now-a-days, and the cost savings of staying home is a huge factor as well, for an otherwise expensive hobby.

I am sure there will be a time where local hobby shops that support WiFi, will be able to create and host their own tournaments within the hex client, and can invite tablet gamers to come and play. Social integration is not limited to the awesome physical touch and smell of fresh cards in your hand, sitting across the table from another sweaty meatbag.

jetah
09-18-2013, 06:29 PM
nicosharp - don't dorget you can use a laptop too. Also we don't need a card shop when we have starbucks and mcdonalds with free wifi and food!!

Selix
09-18-2013, 08:51 PM
Is there any particular reason why shops or just groups of people couldn't hold local tournaments on tablets? I mean sure there is a barrier to entry in the form of actually owning a tablet but if consider yourself a series card collector I imagine getting a tablet won't be a barrier at all. Heck high schools are starting to hand them out to kids.

And even if you don't own a tablet the store could "rent" them out for the tourney. I imagine hex will be designed to work on tablets not nearly as expensive as an iPad just for this purpose.

There are definitely some wonderful things about being physically near players when playing a game (See Gencon) but then there are also time times when you want to play and there is no one physically around or you don't have time to find someone.

Selix
09-18-2013, 09:14 PM
I think Cory has mentioned in interviews that Hex was built with the TCG player in-mind that has aged a few years since the early magic days, and has a family and responsibilities that hinder their ability to play in local card shops with friends.

Moving a social card game to a digital platform allows people with competing priorities and geographical challenges to play with friends at their convenience. This takes the commute, the scheduling, the missed family time and the storage issues away from the previous TCG players logistical challenges.

There are other aspects of the game that encourage social interaction, but of course it is never the same as making friends and socializing / hanging out with people IRL. Sadly, it is very challenging for many people to do this now-a-days, and the cost savings of staying home is a huge factor as well, for an otherwise expensive hobby.

I am sure there will be a time where local hobby shops that support WiFi, will be able to create and host their own tournaments within the hex client, and can invite tablet gamers to come and play. Social integration is not limited to the awesome physical touch and smell of fresh cards in your hand, sitting across the table from another sweaty meatbag.

And there is one other good thing. Many exercise machines allow you to sit a tablet on them these days. How many of us would benefit from drafting while on an exercise bike? Even if we rode that bike at 1mph thats 1mph more then we would be doing sitting in a chair with physical cards.

sukebe
09-18-2013, 09:20 PM
And there is one other good thing. Many exercise machines allow you to sit a tablet on them these days. How many of us would benefit from drafting while on an exercise bike? Even if we rode that bike at 1mph thats 1mph more then we would be doing sitting in a chair with physical cards.

lol, I like this idea. I might have to purchase an exercise bike just for this purpose. I would certainly benefit from exercise.

Mahes
09-19-2013, 06:52 AM
I also have a couple of friends that I play magic with that I have tried to explain this game too. For them it is a wait and see kind of thing. The " face a person across a table" argument against this game is a strong and valid point. I can understand people wanting to maintain this kind of social aspect of the game they play. For me, it is the freedom of being able to play this game anytime I want, that drove me to this game. I cannot go to FNM anymore and this just seemed like the next logical choice. Also, it is a plus not having to have literally 1000's of cards categorized and taking up space in my house.

I think as the game comes out and becomes popular, more magic players will try it out.

Vorpal
09-19-2013, 07:23 AM
So what?

So your statement didn't make sense. What is your point, exactly? That it's wrong for people to try to interest their friends in games?



There are very similar physical games you can play. Theres no real physical alternative to the internet.

Dota is not the internet. There are numerous face to face tabletop games you can play where you control a hero and it levels up.

Hemotherapy
09-19-2013, 07:40 AM
I also have a couple of friends that I play magic with that I have tried to explain this game too. For them it is a wait and see kind of thing. The " face a person across a table" argument against this game is a strong and valid point. I can understand people wanting to maintain this kind of social aspect of the game they play. For me, it is the freedom of being able to play this game anytime I want, that drove me to this game. I cannot go to FNM anymore and this just seemed like the next logical choice. Also, it is a plus not having to have literally 1000's of cards categorized and taking up space in my house.

I think as the game comes out and becomes popular, more magic players will try it out.

That's why I'm excited about it, sure you won't get the pleasure of drawing that game ending card and just tossing it on the table and say GG and walk off like you could IRL or see the look on peoples faces as you do things, but the ability to log in whenever and play, plus the added PvE aspect is well worth the trade off.

I'm just hoping the community is REALLY REALLY good. For this game to thrive and be maximum fun it has to have a strong community feel to it. Which I feel so far, so, so far so good for me! :D


FNM was a blast when I played it, I really wish I had stayed with magic longer, so many fond memories and I wish I had more of them, hoping Hex will rekindle that flame!

DreamPuppet
09-19-2013, 08:58 AM
People said the same thing about online poker 15yrs ago and it's now a billion dollar a year business. Reading people in poker is a lot more important than in magic. When you play 1 game of magic you know whats in the other guys deck and can work around it, in poker every hand is always different.

Hemotherapy
09-19-2013, 09:00 AM
People said the same thing about online poker 15yrs ago and it's now a billion dollar a year business. Reading people in poker is a lot more important than in magic. When you play 1 game of magic you know whats in the other guys deck and can work around it, in poker every hand is always different.


Very true.

BongoBong
09-19-2013, 09:25 AM
So your statement didn't make sense. What is your point, exactly? That it's wrong for people to try to interest their friends in games?

What doesn't make sense about someone not needing to try a game to have a initial opinion on whether they will like it or not. It's no less logical than all the people on these boards who are super excited about this game and think its great despite the fact that they have not tried the game yet. Are you saying that there is not a single game out there, that after looking at videos and reading up on it, you would decide not to play despite someone telling you how good it is or else you would be illogical?

I am not saying people shouldn't try to convince their friends to play, just that your position that if they don't want to try it out then they must be illogical is wrong.



Dota is not the internet. There are numerous face to face tabletop games you can play where you control a hero and it levels up.

When did I say it was? My reference to the internet has to do with my example of how someone may like physical books over ebooks, despite the fact that they read stuff on the internet, which according to your logic doesn't make sense because hey, if they read stuff electronically (on the internet) how could they argue against reading ebooks?

The gameplay of those tabletop games could not be considered comparable to dota. Do you honestly think the similarities between dota and a tabletop game where you level a hero is the same as the similarities between hex and magic?

Vorpal
09-19-2013, 11:45 AM
What doesn't make sense about someone not needing to try a game to have a initial opinion on whether they will like it or not.

They can have an opinion. It will simply be a less informed opinion than if they had actually tried it. You seem to be strenuously arguing that it's a horrible thing to try to interest a friend in something he initially is reluctant to try.


I am not saying people shouldn't try to convince their friends to play, just that your position that if they don't want to try it out then they must be illogical is wrong.

No, you are incorrect. People can well decide not to play something for illogical reasons. I think the reason he gave is illogical. He is perfectly free to decide to play or not play whatever he wants for whatever reason he wants, logical or illogical. Just as his friend is free to try to interest him in it. For logical or illogical reasons.




When did I say it was?

let's recap:

Sceptical Friend: I don't like the lack of social aspects in Hex
Suggested response: it will have the same social aspects as DOTA, which you enjoy

Your retort: There's no physical version of DOTA to play!
My response: There's no physical version of HEX to play...
Your retort: Well there are other TCG's you can play physically!
My response: There are other RPG's you can play physically...
Your retort: Well the gampelay of RPG's isn't all the same!
My response: Well, the gameplay of TCG's isn't all the same...

Where are you going with this line of thought?

You could definitely replicate DOTA on the tabletop. You'd have creep waves controlled by a GM and two separate setups to simulate fog of war (the way they do double blind fog of war for any number of games)

So if your argument is that you COULD play hex physically but you CANT play Dota physically, you're wrong.

If that isn't your argument, what is?

BongoBong
09-19-2013, 12:44 PM
They can have an opinion. It will simply be a less informed opinion than if they had actually tried it. You seem to be strenuously arguing that it's a horrible thing to try to interest a friend in something he initially is reluctant to try.

I don't believe I have ever said that its a horrible thing to try, please quote where I say that.




No, you are incorrect. People can well decide not to play something for illogical reasons. I think the reason he gave is illogical. He is perfectly free to decide to play or not play whatever he wants for whatever reason he wants, logical or illogical. Just as his friend is free to try to interest him in it. For logical or illogical reasons.


We are talking about preferences, what does your logic, or really logic in general have to do with anything? If someone likes something so be it, if they don't so be it. There is no need for logic to come into play when it comes to what someone likes. Will someone suddenly enjoy something better just because it fits within your line of "logic"?



let's recap:

Sceptical Friend: I don't like the lack of social aspects in Hex
Suggested response: it will have the same social aspects as DOTA, which you enjoy

Your retort: There's no physical version of DOTA to play!
My response: There's no physical version of HEX to play...
Your retort: Well there are other TCG's you can play physically!
My response: There are other RPG's you can play physically...
Your retort: Well the gampelay of RPG's isn't all the same!
My response: Well, the gameplay of TCG's isn't all the same...

Where are you going with this line of thought?

You could definitely replicate DOTA on the tabletop. You'd have creep waves controlled by a GM and two separate setups to simulate fog of war (the way they do double blind fog of war for any number of games)

So if your argument is that you COULD play hex physically but you CANT play Dota physically, you're wrong.

If that isn't your argument, what is?

The basis is that just because dota doesn't have the same social aspects to it, doesn't mean he cant want or enjoy social aspects in a different type of game. Dota is not the same type of game as hex, so assuming one must want the same level of social interaction in both doesn't make sense.

Malakili
09-19-2013, 01:31 PM
His reply, again, was saying that the whole thing sounded like a rip-off of MTG

That's the biggest selling point.

Vorpal
09-19-2013, 02:39 PM
I don't believe I have ever said that its a horrible thing to try, please quote where I say that.

I'm confused as to what you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to prevent the OP from attempting to interest his friend in the game?


We are talking about preferences

Well, not really. We're talking about a situation where a person has, without trying it, dismissed something a friend of his thinks he'll like. We are providing ways the friend might overcome his initial reluctance to at least get him to try it.

Then, if he doesn't like it, fine, he's made an informed decision.

You *appear* to be taking issue with this.

We're not trying to convince someone to like something he hates. We're trying to help a friend find a way to convince his friend to at least give something a try.

Is that inherently objectionable to you?

stiii
09-19-2013, 04:44 PM
It sounds to me like this is an instinctive reaction, not a position arrived at after long and sober reasoning.

You are unlikely to be able to 'logic' him into liking it.

Your best bet is probably to play it with him face to face. Or team up and go on a dungeon raid together, while being in the same physical space. If that gets him hooked, he'll probably get over his initial objection. Which is a bit nonsensical anyway. He plays dota, that has just as little social interaction as he claims HEX would have.

This is the post that is causing the problem.

You are pretty much saying that liking Hex is sober and logic and not liking Hex is an instinctive reaction without showing any support for this.

Urimagination
09-19-2013, 07:36 PM
Im new to the whole TCG thing. Got Magic 2014 on steam and loved it. But i cbf going to play with people irl. I like the idea of being able to have a quick game in the morning in my robe with a cup of tea. or at night in my undies with a beer lol.

If i went irl in my undies and a beer i would get arrested

Xenavire
09-19-2013, 07:41 PM
Im new to the whole TCG thing. Got Magic 2014 on steam and loved it. But i cbf going to play with people irl. I like the idea of being able to have a quick game in the morning in my robe with a cup of tea. or at night in my undies with a beer lol.

If i went irl in my undies and a beer i would get arrested

Or you would make good friends with a cop. Very good friends. I mean what cop wouldn't want to start the day with a sip of a cold frosty beer?

Shrennan
09-19-2013, 08:57 PM
Since this topic is sort of dealing with the differences between digital and physical TCGs - one thing that I think Hex doesn't have over a physical TCG is the time it takes to play a match. Of course, I don't think Hex was designed to be a "sit down and play for a couple of minutes" type game like SolForge or Hearthstone, but it does bring up an interesting idea: CZE could certainly try to think of a gametype where it could be a "quick" game relative to normal Hex.

Regardless, I think Hex is better for not catering to the digital advantage there with time. It just means that we'll all have to plan a period of time to play the game just like we would with a physical TCG. Besides, if we can't play for extended periods of time, then I think the PVE can cater to that.

This is not exactly on topic, but this thought occurred to me as I was reading this thread.

jetah
09-19-2013, 09:36 PM
To help the OP.

How can we help suggest to the OP that HEX is not a 'rip-off of MtG'. I don't know much about MtG but I know that HEX will have a pve aspect which is story driven (at least I think it is). It'll have dungeons and raids. Players can chat with each other. Join guilds for social aspect or to try new decks.

I'm sure there will be post on here and MtG that suggest/question HEX is a a MtG clone or not. How do state it isn't or how can we state it's different?

@OP
outside of playing the alpha in front of your friend. Ask them how they'd play this turn (in the alpha).

you could tie him/her down and beat them until they try it. You could burn all of those MtG cards, then say HEX ain't got that. Sell off their cards to buy HEX boosters. if you're against that.. I'm out of ideas.

Hemotherapy
09-20-2013, 07:55 AM
The two problems people face when not wanting to play Hex because they play MtG (Maybe only one of these applies actually) are:

1) MtG has more of a social aspect being that it's irl. This is a good, and a bad thing. If there's a good community it's great, if there isn't, it sucks. I've played some games with people I really wouldn't ever socialize with outside of being forced to play with them because of FNM.

Example:

For me, it was a bad thing. When I was heavy into MtG and really enjoyed it, I made a goblin deck, this was around nemesis w/e that mask block was era. I was really happy about it, it always did well at FNM in my area and I really enjoyed the play style and the fact that it was themed to goblins! Man I was excited about this deck. My parents were happy that I found a hobby that I really enjoyed too. I started to foil out the deck as most people do when they find a great deck they love. I had about 50 out of 60 cards done, half of it being land I needed. Some of the cards my parents bought through card stores online to give to me as gifts too. Well, the guys at the card shop I went to got mad. Apparently there was some kind of ranking system with FNM, where you'd get points? And you could see where you ranked in your local area? I don't know. I'm hearing all this second hand years later after what happend happend. So, they got mad because I was messing up their rankings. They were all well established MtG's that lived off trading and were veterans of the game, and here I am, a newbie, that comes in and starts beating them, and I started climbing the ladder and was knocking some of them a rung under me. So, this place is in the mall, I was going to eat lunch and didn't want to carry my deck around with me to look like that nerdy kid that can't be without his cards! So I asked my friend who ran the place to watch my deck for me, he put it in the back where he normally puts stuff. The guys that were mad at me at the time got in there, stole it, and went to other card shops in the area to trade away all my stuff. I was devistated. I never even knew it was them. I always had an uneasy feeling around them like they didn't really like me all THAT much but I didn't know they hated me. years later one of their friends told me what happend and I couldn't believe it.

This is why I got out of magic, and this is why I'm happy to play a fully digital TCG. 3 DB's ruined magic for years for me. I tried to get back into the game at one point but at this point I was out on my own so I didn't really have the money to keep up with it and it was more frustrating to not be able to play at a higher level because I didn't have the cards I needed. I tried MWS for awhile and it was fun, but it got boring quick and made me long for the IRL experience.


2) People see Hex as a blatant rip off of another game, and will just refuse to play it because generally "rip offs" aren't ever as good as the thing they rip off. Which is a pretty crummy reason to not play the game, it's SIMILAR to MtG in ways, but it HAS to be. There's no reason for Hex to reinvent the wheel here. It's like Apple getting mad at Samsung for having a phone with 4 rounded corners and glass on it...HELLO...what else are they suppose to do?! Obvioulsy card games will always have a similar aspect to MtG.

Xenavire
09-20-2013, 09:02 AM
2) People see Hex as a blatant rip off of another game, and will just refuse to play it because generally "rip offs" aren't ever as good as the thing they rip off. Which is a pretty crummy reason to not play the game, it's SIMILAR to MtG in ways, but it HAS to be. There's no reason for Hex to reinvent the wheel here. It's like Apple getting made at Samsung for having a phone with 4 rounded corners and glass on it...HELLO...what else are they suppose to do?! Obvioulsy card games will always have a similar aspect to MtG.

This point is right on the money. To this day, I haven't met a WoW clone that felt nicer to play than WoW, even when I am sick to death of WoW itself. However, that is not to say there isn't a game that couldn't beat it for me, and I will tend to try new games as they come.

But ignoring a game completely because it is similar is ignorant. I always give things a chance if the world and settings interest me, etc. So I passed on things like SWTOR, and Rift, but just because I wasn't particularly interesting - I looked at FFXIV and decided against it because it didn't seem well put together at the time I looked. Ragnarok Online 2 I tried, because I loved the original RO, but they whored it out with a bunch of micro transactions, and at the time I played it wasn't very well balanced. But I never pass on them because they are WoW clones. (Or at least so similar to WoW that they get compared to WoW.)

The same is true of MtG. I tried the WoWTCG and wasn't particularly impressed, and I have played PokemonTCG and Yugioh and liked them. I tried that one superhero TCG (Marvel or DC, can't remember which) and hated it, and even tried the DragonballTCG (which I frankly didn't understand). But I never refused to try one because it was a copy of another game I had played.

Any time spent looking at Hex can show it does things well enough to be worth a try. I hope all the people questioning it take the time to try Hex, and not write it off because of the similarities to Magic.

Hemotherapy
09-20-2013, 09:29 AM
^ Not to get too off topic here, but me and my roomate use to play the ever living shiz out of RO - Could you elaborate on RO:2? I was thinking about playing that with him, the graphics looked great, is the gameplay all that different?

Xenavire
09-20-2013, 09:35 AM
The gameplay is very much like WoW, with a few tweaks, It isn't terrible, but the balance was off at lower levels (healers were fairly strong at solo'ing things, etc) so I never bothered getting to high level play. But everything seemed in need of a good balancing.

The grind though, is a lot of the most interesting costumes, mounts, and items of random sorts were for sale (and only available via the shop) and had durations. Like a 7 day mount, etc. The lack of permancence on things you paid good money for was a real problem for me, and I ended up not caring anymore.

Compared to WoW, it feels like a rush job. It did just get a bunch of new classes though, so the balance issues might have been dealt with. And it is not bad for being free to play, just not up to the quality I am used to.

Gameplay-wise, it is very different from RO1. It keeps some of the thematics and story, and most of the classes are there (in essence,) but a lot of the charm was lost.

Yasi
09-20-2013, 09:36 AM
^ Not to get too off topic here, but me and my roomate use to play the ever living shiz out of RO - Could you elaborate on RO:2? I was thinking about playing that with him, the graphics looked great, is the gameplay all that different?

I played RO since the beta all the way up to 2012? and I can say with certainty that RO2 is nothing like its predecessor. It has the Ragnarok theme and that's it. It's your generic run-of-the-mill Asian MMORPG.

Vorpal
09-20-2013, 10:59 AM
This is the post that is causing the problem.

You are pretty much saying that liking Hex is sober and logic and not liking Hex is an instinctive reaction without showing any support for this.

No, I'm not saying anything of the kind.

Moreover instinctive reactions can be the correct one.

If you decide you don't like something without trying it, that is often an instinctive reaction.

And you will often be correct.

Also, I specifically talked about this specific situation seeming to be an action of instinct.

People attempting to generalize this to applying to all people who decided HEX is not for them are simply making assumptions without any supporting evidence.

I am saying "It sound like this specific person decided to do A instinctively"

You cannot possibly turn that into "Everyone who decides to do B does so only after careful thought"

Hemotherapy
09-20-2013, 11:35 AM
I played RO since the beta all the way up to 2012? and I can say with certainty that RO2 is nothing like its predecessor. It has the Ragnarok theme and that's it. It's your generic run-of-the-mill Asian MMORPG.

Same here, we played it in the beta up til about 2010.

Good to know it's nothing like it! I wont waste my time then!

BongoBong
09-20-2013, 10:09 PM
I'm confused as to what you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to prevent the OP from attempting to interest his friend in the game?

I am not trying to accomplish anything. I saw a statement made by you that I disagreed with and stated so. I have no such beliefs that what I write on this forum is going to have any sort of impact with what this person decides to do.


Well, not really. We're talking about a situation where a person has, without trying it, dismissed something a friend of his thinks he'll like. We are providing ways the friend might overcome his initial reluctance to at least get him to try it.

Then, if he doesn't like it, fine, he's made an informed decision.

You *appear* to be taking issue with this.

We're not trying to convince someone to like something he hates. We're trying to help a friend find a way to convince his friend to at least give something a try.

Is that inherently objectionable to you?

You weren't just trying to find ways he might overcome it, you stated he was being illogical in his decision not to try it. I disagree with the line of reasoning you have for him being illogical.

Once again, I have no issue with someone trying to suggest or even push a game on to a friend. I disagree with your assertion that the friend must be illogical for their reasoning against wanting to try it. I have no objection to trying to get the friend to try it, I object to your reasoning as to why they are illogical.

Kami
09-21-2013, 05:54 AM
Okay guys, try to stick on topic. Your arguments have derailed into how you're disagreeing instead of actually trying to assist the OP.

If you really want to argue with each other about whose method is better, take it to PM. ^^;

ZephyrNic
09-21-2013, 09:03 AM
I'll admit, I love that aspect of tcgs. Getting together with friends, playing into the we hours with our latest monstrosities. Yet, I'm not in my early 20s anymore. I have a family, and my friends and I work some very different schedules. So the appeal of Hex for me is I don't have to spend travel time to play a match or three, with a player base that is solely located online, and has a rich pve enviroment for when I feel more in the mood to traverse a story.

Is Hex a bit of a mtg clone? Sure, a bit, and those familiar elements with the addition of all the new elements crypt has developed is what makes this game so exciting. It is both familiar, yet completely new. Having the opportunity to be in on the ground floor of this, well, I feel very lucky. Plus having just missed getting a lotus in mtg, I am ecstatic to have one here lol.

jetah
09-21-2013, 10:03 AM
I've found that showing the game or a well done video is better than talking to friends about a new game. When alpha is out just invite your friend over to help you build some decks. this may help convince your friend better than you could with words.

I think CZE is taking trading cards and combining it with storytelling via pve.