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Soldack
09-18-2013, 09:27 AM
Will this game have world first achievements?

If so, do they count from start of Beta or from launch?

If not, why not? :)

What is the max level?

arastor
09-18-2013, 09:37 AM
I believe they've stated they would like to have World First achievements in game. No idea on Beta vs. Launch though. Pretty sure they haven't said anything.

Max level is 20 mercenaries, 50 for PvE champions. PvP champs have no levels.

*Shadowelf posting a video in 3...2...1...*

Yasi
09-18-2013, 09:59 AM
There shouldn't be any kind of achievements that promotes world firsts or anything that discourages solo play.

Shadowelf
09-18-2013, 10:04 AM
I believe they've stated they would like to have World First achievements in game. No idea on Beta vs. Launch though. Pretty sure they haven't said anything.

They said they will have all sort of achievements, and especially on cards (http://hextcg.com/double-back/), but i don't have an official link where they specifically said about world firsts (i promise to search though )


Max level is 20 mercenaries, 50 for PvE champions. PvP champs have no levels.

http://hextcg.com/game/champion/
http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:26:10


*Shadowelf posting a video in 3...2...1...*

1113...1114...1115 sorry i'm late :)

stiii
09-18-2013, 10:08 AM
There shouldn't be any kind of achievements that promotes world firsts or anything that discourages solo play.

You want to give a reason for this?

I mean I don't care even slightly for world firsts but that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't exist.

zadies
09-18-2013, 10:28 AM
There were rather long debates on trying to balance world firsts around the ks rewards. I really hope they aren't included time stamping the deck will allow other sites to track it but doing it in the game opens a huge pay to win can of worms.

ixokai
09-18-2013, 10:29 AM
How do World First's discourage solo play?

Achievements are little meaningless points of pride. I think World First's would be cool: I doubt I'd get many (any), but -- for example -- if I opened up a pack and got a legendary and it was the first of that legendary, having it get a little achievement on its double back saying so would be fun and interesting.

Or, if I was the first person to beat this dungeon, why not have that noted? Since dungeons are ALL solo, it... doesn't make any sense to say an achievement noting such a thing would discourage solo play.

That said, if they don't have them, I won't really mind either. They only "discourage" something when they give rewards.

Now, will achievements give rewards in Hex? (Only visual, I'd think, like sleeves or what not) If any do, I think all that do should be obtainable by everyone given enough time investment -- but that just means if they do give rewards, don't include World's First's in them.

ixokai
09-18-2013, 10:31 AM
There were rather long debates on trying to balance world firsts around the ks rewards. I really hope they aren't included time stamping the deck will allow other sites to track it but doing it in the game opens a huge pay to win can of worms.

???

How are achievements a balance issue? You have World's First Dragon Bob... or don't. At what point does that impact winning or losing?

Vorpal
09-18-2013, 10:33 AM
Achievements for the idea of world firsts doesn't bother me.

To mean anything, it would have to start at launch, not in beta.

Plus there were lots of disagreements over 'world firsts' with the raid leader bonuses mattered or not.

I get the feeling a lot of people are trying to translate the WOW world first scene into hex. I think it is going to be very different.

Instead of needing 40 people to commit to 6 hours of raiding then being locked out for a week, you can grab 2 buddies and hammer the boss over and over until he dies.

I would expect most world firsts to be completed on the day of release before I even get back home from work.

I very much doubt there will be a situation where it takes months and months to beat an encounter. If it does, well, that could be cool, but I don't see it happening without implementing the lockouts they used in WOW.

Yasi
09-18-2013, 10:43 AM
You want to give a reason for this?

I mean I don't care even slightly for world firsts but that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't exist.

It's just that the only people who will be able to complete these types of achievements are people who are in a group.

Daer
09-18-2013, 10:52 AM
To mean anything, it would have to start at launch, not in beta.


They would still mean nothing since all the people in beta would have had weeks/months to build their collections. World Firsts in Hex seem pointless at best and detrimental at worst.

BongoBong
09-18-2013, 11:01 AM
Achievements for the idea of world firsts doesn't bother me.

To mean anything, it would have to start at launch, not in beta.

Not sure that is really possible since they are not wiping our stuff from closed beta. Not sure if that just means our exp and cards, but I would assume it also includes our progress. Even if it does wipe the progress having all your loot and exp from the closed beta would make it pretty unfair anyways.

Soldack
09-18-2013, 11:11 AM
Not sure that is really possible since they are not wiping our stuff from closed beta. Not sure if that just means our exp and cards, but I would assume it also includes our progress. Even if it does wipe the progress having all your loot and exp from the closed beta would make it pretty unfair anyways.

After closed beta I assume is open beta, at the end of open beta, when everyone has had a chance to get ready for it, open the World First achievements at "launch."

Or, what about just having world fist achievements for future, newly released content...

Xenavire
09-18-2013, 11:12 AM
The simple answer would be to start world firsts when new content is released, not at launch. Everyone has time to acclimate, learn, and collect. So there will be an estimated equal footing when the world first opportunities roll around.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-18-2013, 11:20 AM
I don't think there's an issue with having world firsts available as soon as the content becomes available. If you weren't around or ready when the content became available, sure, you might wish you were, but you weren't, so at least you'll be able to lean on that. Given that the game is so similar to MTG (so people can start learning even now), and that there'll be a full alpha period and at least some beta period before people get access to normal PvE, there'll be plenty of time to learn.

On the subject of discouraging solo play, I'd imagine that world firsts would be linked to raids, and perhaps hard mode dungeons. While I'm not against normal mode dungeons having world firsts, I can't imagine they'll be nearly as difficult as the ones I've mentioned, so I don't know if they'd really be anything more than fluff.

As for balacing around the KS rewards - really, the only KS item that would cause contention is Ebonrock. While some tiers and players are going to have access to more cards and items than others (ie. a producer would be in a great spot should they have the desire to go for a world first and be good enough), it's certainly not an insurmountable advantage given that we'll have likely months of beta to acquire PvP cards and items with which to start our PvE journey with, and there are plenty of very strong decks that can be made with just the KS reward PvE cards and items, and PvP cards and items.

And really, if a producer does win due to having access to all those PvE cards and items from the get go, well, I won't feel too hard done by for that. They did pay about 12.5 times what I did into the game (DC, RL, Coll and SB), and it would be a fair call for me to say that the KS edge got them over the line.

Gwaer
09-18-2013, 11:21 AM
There's not going to be much PVE stuff in beta at all. 1 dungeon at last count. The arena.

Kami
09-18-2013, 11:24 AM
World Firsts will never be fair. Period.

Too many variables. This was pretty much discussed to death in an older thread a while back.

As an example:

1. Time Zones
2. People who just happen to be unable to play at X times due to work, school, sickness, etc.
3. People who can spend an enormous sum on Boosters to build their optimal deck ASAP
4. People who have bonuses from pledging
5. Network issues
6. Computer isues
7. <etc.>

All World Firsts do is to show that you were lucky enough to beat the odds; not that you are the best for doing it first. In other words, World First is a meaningless achievement that looks/sounds nice only.

Yasi
09-18-2013, 11:29 AM
All World Firsts do is to show that you were lucky enough to beat the odds; not that you are the best for doing it first. In other words, World First is a meaningless achievement that looks/sounds nice only.

What if you're world first like 10 or 100 times in a row though? Being world first 100 times in a row has to mean something other than nothing.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-18-2013, 11:37 AM
I dunno; I think it's a gross generalisation to classify it as luck.

For those 6 issues listed:

1. For a player that really wants to get a world first, the time zone they're playing in won't matter.
2. For a player that really wants to get a world first, they'll set aside some time to go for it. While this is a very competitive mindset, would it really be fair for a person who manages to take some leave from work to do so to not have an edge over someone who doesn't? Of course not. Now it's not feasible for some people - like a student - but that's a priorities issue (and Hex should always come after school anyway).
3. For a player that really wants to get a world first, they'll invest as much as they think they need to in order to secure it. I know I'll be gunning for cards I believe will be required for raids very early on in the beta, so I'm ready as soon as normal PvE rolls out.
4. For a player that really wants to get a world first, they can seek a third party seller to get a raid leader account.
5 and 6. For a player that really wants to get a world first, they'll try and ensure their computer and network won't have issues during their attempt. If they do regardless, it's more bad luck than getting lucky if they don't.

2 is the most valid point because it's not feasible to expect some players who might go for world firsts to take time off work or school, but again, it all comes down to priorities. I mean, imagine I was attempting to get into the 2016 Olympics. I should prioritise though, and if I don't do as well in my event because I prioritised work or school instead, that doesn't mean others were lucky that they got to prioritise the Olympics, it just means that I didn't think it was as important as other aspects of my life. Which is a very fair call.

4 is also somewhat valid, given that it requires going outside the game. But the RL buff is an issue between CZE and players, and ultimately, a player who is dedicated enough to the goal could get the account (just like if I was more dedicated to the goal I could try and buy someone's producer account).

But I will stress, world firsts don't say squat about one player being better than another. It says who did something first. Period. It doesn't comment on anything about them, except that they cleared something first. While some things may be able to be inferred from it (depending on the difficulty of the encounter in question, that the player either made a good decklist and displayed skill in that area, or that they had enough spare time to get their first then knock over an easy encounter), ultimately, nothing is proven by it.

Kami
09-18-2013, 11:38 AM
What if you're world first like 10 or 100 times in a row though? Being world first 100 times in a row has to mean something other than nothing.

I'd say it would be dependent on which World Firsts they are. If they are things that are achieved sequentially, it may or may not be meaningless. If they were achievements that were completed without being linked to progress in another World First, then I could see that potentially being somewhat more meaningful (but in the grand scheme of things, still not really).

In either case, I still find World Firsts to be meaningless. This is my personal perception on the subject, obviously.

I proposed another more meaningful achievement but that would require leaderboards and encourage competition.

For example: Your ranking based on how quickly you defeat a dungeon or raid. Every person has an equal opportunity as there is a definitive start line and end line. And as the game progresses with new cards/equipment/etc. people will always have an opportunity to break the top record.

jetah
09-18-2013, 11:41 AM
There shouldn't be any kind of achievements that promotes world firsts or anything that discourages solo play.

That I'm aware of, the whole pve is solo. the only grouping you'll do is for raids.


Like someone stated, world first wont matter when we have no lockout for raids/dungeons.

Yasi
09-18-2013, 11:42 AM
For example: Your ranking based on how quickly you defeat a dungeon or raid. Every person has an equal opportunity as there is a definitive start line and end line. And as the game progresses with new cards/equipment/etc. people will always have an opportunity to break the top record.

I was being sarcastic-heh. I couldn't care less for world first or this subject for that matter. I just wanted to post to post, to be honest...However now that you brought up the ranking thing; I can see how that would be really good and fair.

jetah
09-18-2013, 12:09 PM
For example: Your ranking based on how quickly you defeat a dungeon or raid. Every person has an equal opportunity as there is a definitive start line and end line. And as the game progresses with new cards/equipment/etc. people will always have an opportunity to break the top record.

oddly enough WoW has this. They baseline the gear so everyone entering has equal item level gear (if you're higher it's dropped, if your lower it doesn't change). These are time challenges fastest wins.

BongoBong
09-18-2013, 12:14 PM
After closed beta I assume is open beta, at the end of open beta, when everyone has had a chance to get ready for it, open the World First achievements at "launch."

I typically take open beta to essentially be the release with any of these f2p games nowadays. I just think its pretty pointless to have a world first for content that has already been cleared.


Or, what about just having world fist achievements for future, newly released content...

Good point. Like someone else said most of the pve probably isnt in during the beta so all future content could have it.

In the end I don't care at all what they do with world firsts as it has absolutely zero relevance to myself, and likely wont have any relevance to the vast majority of players.

Vorpal
09-18-2013, 12:54 PM
They would still mean nothing since all the people in beta would have had weeks/months to build their collections. World Firsts in Hex seem pointless at best and detrimental at worst.

The idea that someone has a better collection than you do does not in and of itself invalidate the concept of world firsts.

World firsts in WOW weren't considered invalid because the 'winning' guild had better gear.

There is always going to be someone who has more time than you, and can thus get a bigger collection/better gera.

As I understand it, there is basically no PvE content available in the closed beta anyway, and all the progress is going to be wiped, before the open beta (open to everyone) so that everyone would be starting off an as even a playing field as can reasonably be expected.

Remember, you can always use your pvp cards in pve, so the argument about 'building up your collection' doesn't seem to make much sense since anyone could drop a couple hundred bucks and instantly build up their collection that way.

I think it's a bit silly to start the clock before the game is even released, so I think these achievements starting on official release makes more sense than having them start in an open beta. Making the achievement start when the content is first available is also a defensible position, though in practice it may amount to the same thing as it sounded like there would be virtually no pve content before release. (Which saddens me a little bit, as I am actually looking forward to the pve content greatly). This makes perfect sense though. WOW didn't put all it's dungeon content out there in betas either.

I still don't think world firsts are going to be a big 'thing', for the reasons I mentioned. A very tiny subset of people cared about it in WOW, I think the portion of the playerbase that cares about it in HEX will be even smaller. I personally won't care but if HEX wants to put in achievements to please the people that do care, I have no objection.

Tinuvas
09-18-2013, 01:08 PM
I remember hitting the local game store at midnight for Wrath of the Lich King when it released (first and last time I did that for WoW). I had it installed and was playing by 2am, but really remember the game announcing different world firsts the next day while everything was new and fun for me and those with me. I thought it was awesome. There was no way with all of my variables that I was capable of even attempting any of them, but seeing others hitting them just hyped the experience for me. It was a ton of fun.

I would love to see world firsts, even knowing that I HIGHLY doubt I would be getting any of them. Just seeing others being rewarded in that way would be awesome for me. It gave a feeling of validation for the ridiculous amount of time I was spending online, created a sense of community, and made me want to push forward to get to those goals, even if I wasn't the first to do so.

Miwa
09-18-2013, 01:18 PM
I don't mind that they'll give out world first achievements any more than I mind that the special olympics gives out gold medals.

Falaris
09-18-2013, 01:46 PM
As long as there is no tangible benefit derived from world firsts (IE rewards), I don't see the issue with them. Yes, the kickstarter players will have a decided advantage. So what?

Zygon
09-18-2013, 02:10 PM
I honestly think World's Firsts are stupid in this game. :) There's no competition among everyone, just the people who were fortunate enough to have enough money to get the KS tiers that give 4 copies of everything, and have ridiculous advantages for it.

Kami
09-18-2013, 02:15 PM
I honestly think World's Firsts are stupid in this game. :) There's no competition among everyone, just the people who were fortunate enough to have enough money to get the KS tiers that give 4 copies of everything, and have ridiculous advantages for it.

You're assuming those same people have the skill and ability to create the perfect decks and know exactly what to do in situations we aren't even aware of (given how little of PvE we've seen).

Miwa
09-18-2013, 02:18 PM
And that they can overcome their individual shortcomings and cross the finish line first.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-18-2013, 02:18 PM
In addition to what Kami said, you're also assuming that those producers are going to be going hard for world firsts. While if they are they do have an advantage in terms of collection (which would likely only extend to PvE cards given that PvP cards will be available for months when the beta first comes out), let's consider that the producer tier was a $10k outlay for an entertainment purchase. I'd be surprised if most people with that kind of disposable income didn't have full time jobs that they have to be mostly committed to - the people who get world firsts are likely going to be playing almost non-stop when normal PvE comes out.

Zygon
09-18-2013, 02:33 PM
You're assuming those same people have the skill and ability to create the perfect decks and know exactly what to do in situations we aren't even aware of (given how little of PvE we've seen).

You're assuming these people won't play Alpha or Closed Beta, when world's firsts will not be a thing yet. There will be some PvE in Closed Beta, which will be more then enough time for people to get a feel for things. You're assuming everyone with this advantage has less skill, for some reason.

You don't need perfect decks, but if you don't need time to gather your resources, you also have more time to experiment as well.

It's a gigantic advantage.


EDIT: In response to Jax. It's not even just them. It's higher tiers or people with more money in general.

As a speedrunner, I know that most of what makes and breaks speedrunning is preparation and variables.

Money solved/solves a LOT of these problems. What might take you days to figure out a way to beat a dungeon boss with your collection as you try to expand it and experiment, it will only take them hours.

Why? Because they need way less prep time, and have way less variables. It's not 'what can I do with this small amount of cards I have (because the game JUST came out). It's more 'Look at my cards and figure it out.'

If they're any good at all, it will cut off huge amounts of time towards the same goal. And honestly if they at least didn't love the idea, or MtG or MMOs in general. I doubt the 39 people just don't care.

The only way you have a shot anymore is if you spend ridiculous amounts of money on packs and the AH in hopes to level the playing field.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-18-2013, 02:49 PM
Normal PvE isn't coming out at any point early on in the beta. There is plenty of time to obtain any PvP cards and gear you desire. So that side of proceedings is moot.

Honestly, I misremembered how many tiers get 4 of all cards at release - but even then, it's potentially not that bad. I can tell you right now that there are amazingly strong decklists that can be formed via just PvP cards and equipment, and KS PvE cards and equipment. Sure, having a card like Void Breech with its equipment right out of the gate allows for different strategies to be utilised, but PvP cards alone give us plenty of options.

I personally don't think I'm even close to being out of the running simply because I'm not being given any sets at release - there's a lot of strong decks that can be switched between just from the PvP cards, so even if one dungeon is disadvantageous towards one deck-from-PvP-cards, there'll likely be another deck-from-PvP-cards that does very well.

And if I do lose out to a tier that got given sets? At least I'll be able to reasonably say that they beat me largely, if not entirely on the back of their superior card pool. My competitive nature can take losing a race to something like that. :-P And I reiterate, world firsts only show who cleared the content first; they are not necessarily a reflection of skill.

Also, you don't need to spend ridiculous amounts of money on boosters in order to obtain the cards and equipment you want. Straight up cracking boosters is the worst way to acquire specific cards/items you're looking for.

Zygon
09-18-2013, 03:27 PM
Who says you're going to have a full PVP set? The world's firsts will likely start in Open beta, when the wipe is done and you get your KS package.

Also,

You really think you have time to be economical in a race for world firsts? Come on Jax. There isn't going to be an established market for at least a week, and it's not going to settle down for at least a month.


Your best shot is to try to settle the score as quickly as possible, and get as much of the set as possible, and try to outsmart them to make up for the disadvantage. Is it possible? Sure. Is it going to be really really hard? Yeah. And you're definitely going to need a high tier KS (even if it's not 4 of everything) or a lot of money to blow trying to scramble for your stuff to make up for the advantage.

Who says they can't take off work? There's a whole thread of people doing that for Alpha. Or what if they were just rich kids, with mega money, and don't actually have a job? I give you credit for your optimism, but trying to negate their leg up with 'maybe if's is not a very logical way to hope for the best.

I'm not chasing firsts, that's for sure. I wish you luck in your quest for them though.

zadies
09-18-2013, 03:38 PM
The producers also have access to all legendary equipment drops not just the cards which cuts out literally hundreds of hours of grinding.
Also DC and RL have huge advantages as well which you are discounting jax because I believe you will be merging both into one account.

I wish I had thought to multi purchase when I saw go sold out lol.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-19-2013, 02:31 AM
Also DC and RL have huge advantages as well which you are discounting jax because I believe you will be merging both into one account.
A much bigger number of players have RL and DC (I don't consider DC an advantage as it's something which can be overcome with money), so I didn't compare them to the 4-of PvE card and PvE equipment bonus, which is something that will be different.

Players coming into the game post-Kickstarter might have issue with the RL buff, but that's the case with or without world firsts and isn't exclusive to that notion. I know if I was one of those players though, and I really wanted the buff for whatever reason, I'd be trying to buy an RL+ account second hand. It's not ideal, for sure, but not insurmountable.


Who says you're going to have a full PVP set? The world's firsts will likely start in Open beta, when the wipe is done and you get your KS package.
This is the first time in a while that I've heard of a wipe in beta. I believe it's been understood at this point that we'll be given all our swag at the start of the closed beta, and there won't be any wipes. I could be wrong, but I'd want Shadowelf-esque narrative before believing otherwise. ^^


You really think you have time to be economical in a race for world firsts? Come on Jax. There isn't going to be an established market for at least a week, and it's not going to settle down for at least a month.
This is assuming your previous point is true, which I don't think it is. If we have a month or two or three of acquisition time of PvP cards, then yes, you have more than enough time to be economical.


Who says they can't take off work? There's a whole thread of people doing that for Alpha. Or what if they were just rich kids, with mega money, and don't actually have a job? I give you credit for your optimism, but trying to negate their leg up with 'maybe if's is not a very logical way to hope for the best.
I think it's very logical to assume that, on average, people who make more money generally work harder. It's not always the case, and I also made that comment before being reminded that primal and dragon lord both also get a playset of the release cards (and $2500 isn't an absurd eexpenditure).


At the end of the day, I'm not saying that 4x PvE cards and equipment isn't a leg up. But if we're able to acquire the PvP set - which I believe I will, because I haven't heard any talk of a wipe since the Kickstarter, and it's my understanding now that we'll just go into beta and carry on from the start until release - then, far less drama. I know I've made a few very strong PvE decklists already that consist simply of PvP cards and equip + KS cards and equip. I won't get to abuse amazing cards like Clone Zone and Void Breech out of the gate, but those are the breaks. And if I lose out to players who had a playset at release? Good work to them; I lost the race, and I can even pin it on another player having an advantage to me. I won't lose any sleep. :-P



Actually, I got some Shadowelf quotes about wipes from other threads:

What is Alpha/Beta access ?

Alpha access was unlocked during the KS and offers all backers early access to the game, character name reservation and guild creation.You'll be able to register your account name, reserve names for your guilds and chars, and play an early alpha version of HEX before anybody else. The devs then will be proceed to wipe your Alpha process before allow beta to begin. Beta will be where the fun begins; you will get access to your rewards, be able to trade/sell/buy stuff, play pvp/pve and generally a good taste of the game before launch.

Originally Posted by WBrinkman from Reddit on May 29th
None of this is finalized, so what we do may change. We may do a short free beta to stress test (written in May, before the alpha was announced, which sounds like it will be taking its place), make sure the client is good to go. Then we'll do a monetized beta just like you've seen most online games do out there. Once that hits, there will be no wipes. Of course, if cards were created by accident, that's a bug and we'd rectify that. But aside from that, the cards you earn at that point forward are yours. We wouldn't want to wipe away any awesome legendary cards or any of the experience you've earned on your individual cards. That's no fun for anyone.

Shadowelf
09-19-2013, 02:44 AM
Here is one more for you Jax

Creator Cryptozoic Entertainment on May 30
@Tim: Alpha will be free of charge and we're not starting your rewards at that time, so there will be a wipe.


(update #22 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts/495539#comments)

blakegrandon
09-19-2013, 06:20 AM
Personally I'm against world Firsts. Not because of the debate about "fairness" but because it makes me choose between achievement hunting and enjoying the game at a leisurely pace.

I liked Starcraft 2's method of achievements where you could accomplish them at your own pace, slowly but surely achieving them all (hell I have 75% of the achievements in SC2 and some of them are still eluding me because of the sheer amount of wins it requires).

The problem with world firsts is that while achievements are meaningless, allowing only one person to ever get it means people will have to choose between going for them and doing other parts of the game.

Saying world first achievements will only appeal to a small amount of players ignores the players that enjoy achievements but also want to experience other content.

World firsts are an "Epeen Contest" by those that try to amass as many as possible, I once played an mmorpg where there were world firsts for pretty much everything, can't even remember the name of it, and yes you could get a few but there would be 1-2 players racking up virtually all of them.

I'd rather see them focus their time and efforts on achievements that the majority of players can "eventually" get, not one time achievements that force you to either skip school/work in order to "possibly" get or skip other content in order to get.

Vorpal
09-19-2013, 07:20 AM
If only one person in the entire game can get an achievement, I'm not going to lose any sleep at all over missing it.

I imagine they'll hand out achievements for tournament victories at hex con, that kind of thing. I doubt very much that only 'world first' achievements will be in the category 'not everyone can get'.

If you want, I think it would make sense to divide achievements into two categories, so that people who like to get 100% achievement can still do so. All achievements that everyone can get can go into one category, and then achievements that are exclusive (if one person gets them, another can't) can go in that category.

zadies
09-19-2013, 07:37 AM
World firsts should only be in games that are either time to win or skill to win. Any game that is either luck to win or pay to win no matter the capacity should not have world firsts.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-19-2013, 07:40 AM
Hex is pay to play, not pay to win. ;-)

Edit: in my opinion, at least, for the PvP side of things. PvE is of course F2P. But when we're talking about the PvP cards, I'd argue that because none of the hard to obtain cards will be mandatory across all competitive decks, it's a pay to play system.

Now, if they made a card so good that you had to include it to have a chance, and that card was legendary, I'd say that would be pay to win (and bad design :-P).

zadies
09-19-2013, 07:46 AM
Ah but you can't buy raid leader and you stated that the DC bonus could be overcome with money while they do no guarantee wining the DC bonus is like in the 100 meter dash in the olimpics but you can pay a million dollars so you only have to dash 50 meters. While in theory if you aren't a real runner a trained athlete will still beat you if you are both equally skilled you are more likely to win.

So money influences the out come. And pve is f2p any influx of money moves it to p2w it doesn't matter how small the scale gets tipped it does tip. Even if you only have a .001% better chance of wining it is still better.

Also it is luck based if two people with mirror decks start an event at exactly the same time going for a world first the one with the better draws will win faster given equal skill.

PvP is where the game is p2p.

Given the absurdity of the released raid cards and the legendary equipment all of which is obtained from pve I feel you are overrating the significance that a PvP card with no equipment for it will impact the pve meta. Once you get the equipment for it which takes half the time with DC or money(p2w) it is a hybrid card.

But all methods of obtaining equipment and pve only cards are pay to win in some regard even if you personally grind them all out someone else paid to get them in half the time or could just buy it off the ah.

I am not saying this is a bad model from a total game perspective, but given the luck element and no matter how small you decide to argue it down to there is still a pay to win element. World firsts are not something I would want cze to endorse because it is impossible given the current design to make it just skill and time impacting the outcome.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-19-2013, 08:08 AM
1. It's a gross exaggeration to compare running half a race to getting some extra loot drops and an extra card at the start of a raid. It's more akin to maybe 10 meters. Still quite meaningful, of course.

2. Virtually any game with a random element involves luck at times. Texas Hold Em, Magic, Hex, Craps, Yahtzee - there's a reason there's no label like "luck to win". Because so many games involve luck at their core, and players incorporate it into their strategies.

3. I never said a PvP card with no equipment. In boosters there will be chests, which will contain (at times) equipment for PvP cards. As such, it's going to be possible to get the equipment you need for your PvP cards before normal PvE comes out.

3.5. I'd argue that from the PvE cards we have spoiled, the only cards that won't be available to most players at launch (either by trading or KS rewards) that could be powerful enough to cause concern are Void Breech, and to a lesser extent Clone Zone. While there will be many other awesome cards in PvE, for sure, most of them are akin to PvP cards in power level.

4. Your argument appears to be that world firsts are pay to win, not PvE in general. If you needed expensivecards in order to succeed at PvE, then I'd agree that PvE as a whole is pay to win. As it stands though, investing money into cards only gives you an advantage; buying certain cards won't be required to complete PvE content (and if it is, it may be a problem - though raids should obviously be more challenging the weaker your deck is).

So, is a "pay to win" achievement a bad thing? I don't think so. After all, the starting cards is just one thing that is going to contribute to world firsts, and I'd say isn't the major one. Time and preparation are far more important. If you have every card when the PvE content comes out, but you aren't planning on playing almost non-stop until you get the achievement/s or haven't done a lick of preparation or decklist building, you're not going to beat someone who has put in all that time, before and during the start of the game, and has all the PvP cards they're looking for.

I will note that Blake brings up a point in that he's not a fan of the idea of world first achievements because he feels it causes some pro-achievement players to want to try and rush through the game in order to try and get the achievement, rather than relaxing and enjoying the game. It's a valid opinion. However, my opinion is that more options are better than less, and in this case, it's simply up to the individual to prioritise what they want more out of the early part of the game - the chance to get a world first, or to take the game at their preferred pace.

hex_colin
09-19-2013, 08:56 AM
Having access to lots of cards will be important, but it's going to pale in comparison to the mental effort and play time necessary to "solve" PVE content. It's not just a matter of putting together the 60 best cards and winning - most of the PVE content will require decks that solve multiple divergent challenges without switching out cards, etc. Add in the complexity of doing that across 3 decks for raids and it'll be all about what you know about the cards and the encounters, and have very little to do with how extensive your card collection is.

Kami
09-19-2013, 09:34 AM
Speaking of PvE, it's not as simple as just defeating the AI as well.They've already stated that certain matches will need to be defeated with certain conditions in place to advance. And even then, there may be multiple paths of advancement.

Yasi
09-19-2013, 09:38 AM
PvE is going to be easy mode. You're playing against AI that has a limited number of cards...

Kami
09-19-2013, 09:42 AM
PvE is going to be easy mode. You're playing against AI that has a limited number of cards...

You're also playing against an AI that has AI-only cards and possibly other advantages dependent on conditions.

Zygon
09-19-2013, 10:18 AM
I don't like arguing this with you Jax. You call me out on assumptions then you have assumptions that are way out there.


You're assuming that closed beta will be the money part of beta, and it probably won't be, just to say that there will be an established market.

Then you assume that if they're going to have enough features in this closed beta (such as an established market) that it wouldn't be enough to start the world's firsts.

You're assuming the best of both worlds. That the game will be developed enough for an established market at a point where it won't be wiped, but not enough to implement world's firsts. I'd be shocked if this happened, as it just doesn't make logical sense.

Then you go on to assume that closed beta and open beta will be the same beta. Shadowelf can quote to prove me wrong or true, but I'm pretty sure it was said that we will be getting our KS rewards on OPEN beta. But there will be a closed beta before that. (Which will likely just be evolved alpha.) Most likely the world's firsts will be unlocked on OPEN beta, where the KS tiers are given out and anybody can come in and play.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-19-2013, 10:57 AM
I don't like arguing this with you Jax. You call me out on assumptions then you have assumptions that are way out there.
I'm happy to agree to disagree rather than argue.


You're assuming that closed beta will be the money part of beta, and it probably won't be, just to say that there will be an established market.
It's more an educated guess, given the quotes I posted. ;-)


Then you assume that if they're going to have enough features in this closed beta (such as an established market) that it wouldn't be enough to start the world's firsts.
I don't even get this... they've said they won't have normal PvE at the start of the beta. And if you've listened to what the people that went to Gen Con (and possibly Pax) said, the PvE side of things isn't as far along as the PvP side of things. PvP has been the larger focus.


You're assuming the best of both worlds. That the game will be developed enough for an established market at a point where it won't be wiped, but not enough to implement world's firsts. I'd be shocked if this happened, as it just doesn't make logical sense.
I never said anything about the market - only that you wouldn't need to crack boosters to get cards, and that would be inefficient. Prices fluctuate all the time; even if a set's been out for a while a strong performance by a card in a tournament will see its price rise. Also, it's possible to get every card you want with a very minimal outlay thanks to on-demand tournaments.


Then you go on to assume that closed beta and open beta will be the same beta. Shadowelf can quote to prove me wrong or true, but I'm pretty sure it was said that we will be getting our KS rewards on OPEN beta. But there will be a closed beta before that. (Which will likely just be evolved alpha.) Most likely the world's firsts will be unlocked on OPEN beta, where the KS tiers are given out and anybody can come in and play.
I already quoted those things. They did say that - but also before an alpha was announced. And everything that's happening in the alpha sounds like what would have been happening in the closed beta. It's not a stretch to think that closed beta = alpha in this case.

Vorpal
09-19-2013, 11:34 AM
PvE is going to be easy mode. You're playing against AI that has a limited number of cards...

They will have their own special cards and be able to break the rules.

It would be trivially easy to create an unbeatable PVE encounter.

It would also be trivially easy to create a laughably easy PVE encounter.

It will depend on how good the CZE dungeon design guys are.

Zygon
09-19-2013, 12:00 PM
I'm happy to agree to disagree rather than argue.


It's more an educated guess, given the quotes I posted. ;-)


I don't even get this... they've said they won't have normal PvE at the start of the beta. And if you've listened to what the people that went to Gen Con (and possibly Pax) said, the PvE side of things isn't as far along as the PvP side of things. PvP has been the larger focus.


I never said anything about the market - only that you wouldn't need to crack boosters to get cards, and that would be inefficient. Prices fluctuate all the time; even if a set's been out for a while a strong performance by a card in a tournament will see its price rise. Also, it's possible to get every card you want with a very minimal outlay thanks to on-demand tournaments.


I already quoted those things. They did say that - but also before an alpha was announced. And everything that's happening in the alpha sounds like what would have been happening in the closed beta. It's not a stretch to think that closed beta = alpha in this case.

Yeah we can just stop. I don't know how you plan on competing and being economical especially when I highly doubt they're going to wait to add achievements until after the money part of beta starts, but good luck. That's why I brought up the market.

I will admit that Alpha COULD be the 'closed beta' they once referred to. But who knows for sure. I hope for your sake that I'm wrong, because it's gonna be tough to get over those obstacles. I have to give you props for your optimism.

It still bothers me how much your assumptions are the 'best of all worlds' but oh well. I hope that they indeed give you 2-3 months to get your sets before significant PvE happens with no wipe...however ridiculous that sounds.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-19-2013, 12:32 PM
I'd rather be optimistic than pessimistic any day of the week.

Also, my experience with other games has taught me that many people cry of the falling sky when it isn't actually happening. If you look at these forums, it's happening (the crying) over and over and over. I know that if I am wrong, and if the top 3 tiers do get the PvP leg up as well as the PvE leg up, then what can I do about it? Bitch and whine? No; I'll know that the achievement was out of my reach due to that advantage, and just enjoy the other 99.9% of the game. ^^

These achievements, more than any others, will just be fluff. All they mean is that someone did something first; while inferences might be able to be made depending on the accessibility to the race, ultimately, all world first says for certain is that the account got there first.

Miwa
09-19-2013, 12:34 PM
I think that people expecting to do much of any PvE during alpha (and probably even during beta for a while) are going to be sorely disappointed...

Shadowelf
09-19-2013, 12:38 PM
Then you go on to assume that closed beta and open beta will be the same beta. Shadowelf can quote to prove me wrong or true, but I'm pretty sure it was said that we will be getting our KS rewards on OPEN beta. But there will be a closed beta before that. (Which will likely just be evolved alpha.) Most likely the world's firsts will be unlocked on OPEN beta, where the KS tiers are given out and anybody can come in and play.

Truth to be told, atm we don't know what kind of beta we will be getting. Also that info was before they decided to prolong Alpha; but let's take it form the beginning shall we?

May 29


Originally Posted by WBrinkman from Reddit on May 29th
None of this is finalized, so what we do may change. We may do a short free beta to stress test (written in May, before the alpha was announced, which sounds like it will be taking its place), make sure the client is good to go. Then we'll do a monetized beta just like you've seen most online games do out there. Once that hits, there will be no wipes. Of course, if cards were created by accident, that's a bug and we'd rectify that. But aside from that, the cards you earn at that point forward are yours. We wouldn't want to wipe away any awesome legendary cards or any of the experience you've earned on your individual cards. That's no fun for anyone


June 2 Angry Joe video

Cory only mentions beta (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc 0:44:22)

June 5 Week n' Geek video

This is probabbly what confuses you; Cory talks about the first beta (pvp beta) that will be very pvp centric with a section of pvp so that you can level up champs/mercs; then there will be the pve beta (second phase) where they will have the entire game in it; (http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 1:34:35)

June 7

As we're moving through Alpha and things are going well, we'll then announce when Beta begins. At that point, we'll let you know how Beta works and how you will collect your rewards. (update #31 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=4)

June 12 E3 interview

Cory speaks of public beta being at the end of September which will follow closed Alpha ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z20tC_cGSsY 0:27:30)

August 31

Cory reveals that Alpha will be several months long, and they will slowly incorporating features in it, till beta which will be several months after Alpha, and that they will have a nice list of stuff for it.(http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ 0:36:05)

What will probably be happening imho

Instead of having a short alpha and 2 phases of beta, we will now have a prolonged Alpha, that will last 3 months, and they will be incorporating all sort of pvp stuff they had in their mind to test. Then everything will be wiped before beta begins. As for beta we don't really know what cory means with 'a nice list of stuff'; beta could be what was initially planned, one dungeon and lots of pvp to soft launch with most features. This needs further clarification atm. One thing is certain; there won't be any wipes once we get our stuff in beta. As for world firsts, it will most likely be a beta thing, after we have received our rewards

SuperPueppi
09-19-2013, 03:34 PM
Personally I'm against world Firsts. Not because of the debate about "fairness" but because it makes me choose between achievement hunting and enjoying the game at a leisurely pace.

I liked Starcraft 2's method of achievements where you could accomplish them at your own pace, slowly but surely achieving them all (hell I have 75% of the achievements in SC2 and some of them are still eluding me because of the sheer amount of wins it requires).

The problem with world firsts is that while achievements are meaningless, allowing only one person to ever get it means people will have to choose between going for them and doing other parts of the game.

Saying world first achievements will only appeal to a small amount of players ignores the players that enjoy achievements but also want to experience other content.

World firsts are an "Epeen Contest" by those that try to amass as many as possible, I once played an mmorpg where there were world firsts for pretty much everything, can't even remember the name of it, and yes you could get a few but there would be 1-2 players racking up virtually all of them.

I'd rather see them focus their time and efforts on achievements that the majority of players can "eventually" get, not one time achievements that force you to either skip school/work in order to "possibly" get or skip other content in order to get.

This.
In addition to unfair advantages of higher tiers this would also mean that faster decks and gameplay are favorised (well at least by those aiming for world firsts).

And of course there's already enough achievements on the double backs - which will then provide you with aesthetic improvements (if you're into that thing), so it's at least getting you s.th..
Meaningful world firsts like winning the first pro tournament or such will be remembered anyways, and I have high respect for these things as they show skill and such.

What I am not a big fan of are these extensive lists of achievements such as in WoW, which to me is basically a poor effort at prolonging gametime. With new sets coming out all 4 months who needs stuff like that? Or to keep track of who leveled what champion to 50 first etc? What I like about Hex is that it is clearly setting a different pacing for PvE and PvP, world firsts would only be detrimental to that.
I would rather have CZ polish the core of the game and improve there than adding e-peen features. And talking about that, I would hate any step of the game to be delayed for only one day for implementation of them.
PvP is more than enough to show off your skills.

Leingod
09-19-2013, 03:50 PM
I'd like to see world first achievements for the content that CZE designs to be extremely difficult. It should only ever start at the official launch of a set/content patch though. Beta would be a horrible time to track world firsts because we should be testing first and foremost, but also because encounters are extremely likely to change.

As far as fairness well, no world first has ever been fair. Sometimes you kill everything during the beta test, sometimes you have 3 sets of glaives going into sunwell, and sometimes you can bring a raid full of warlocks to kill Yogg with 0 lights. It is very much likely to be fairer having world firsts in Hex due to the fact that you can AH specific cards for your collection rather than random drops and you won't need 24-39 other people so the organizational disadvantages many have in MMOs for 'competitive' raiding are non-issues in a game like Hex.

zadies
09-19-2013, 06:06 PM
The issue is that making a prominent part of pve a pay to win experience taints the entire experience because it looks like you favor and are rewarding that behavior.
I have money and am more then willing to spend it but making achievements that are basically bought will cause issue with people trying to defend the idea of the game being f2p look at how much complaining there is about p2p PvP when it was never advertised as being remotely f2p but could be traded for on the ah.

Unhurtable
09-20-2013, 12:06 AM
PvE is going to be easy mode. You're playing against AI that has a limited number of cards...

"No guys its okay raiding in *insert almost any MMORPG here* is going to be easy mode. You are playing against bosses that have a limited amount of abilities and health...."

SuperPueppi
09-20-2013, 12:12 AM
The issue is that making a prominent part of pve a pay to win experience taints the entire experience because it looks like you favor and are rewarding that behavior.
I have money and am more then willing to spend it but making achievements that are basically bought will cause issue with people trying to defend the idea of the game being f2p look at how much complaining there is about p2p PvP when it was never advertised as being remotely f2p but could be traded for on the ah.

Good point with the PvE F2P aspect, though you could always argue that getting world firsts isn't part of the f2p experience (at least getting them won't since they are obviously exclusive).

Kami
09-20-2013, 04:00 AM
The issue is that making a prominent part of pve a pay to win experience taints the entire experience because it looks like you favor and are rewarding that behavior.I have money and am more then willing to spend it but making achievements that are basically bought will cause issue with people trying to defend the idea of the game being f2p look at how much complaining there is about p2p PvP when it was never advertised as being remotely f2p but could be traded for on the ah.

That's not entirely true. From what we know:

1. The entire PvE campaign is F2P. In other words, you can access and play the entire PvE campaign without paying a cent.
2. There will be some PvP using PvE cards and even champions/mercenaries. This is assumed to be free as well.
3. Only competitive PvP which use limited champions and PvP-only cards (PvE cards restricted for balance) will be P2P.

I'm not really sure where you expect them to earn revenue by making everything free. That doesn't seem logical to me. I'd rather have a game to play than a game that is no longer playable due to bankruptcy.

blakegrandon
09-20-2013, 06:15 AM
I will note that Blake brings up a point in that he's not a fan of the idea of world first achievements because he feels it causes some pro-achievement players to want to try and rush through the game in order to try and get the achievement, rather than relaxing and enjoying the game. It's a valid opinion. However, my opinion is that more options are better than less, and in this case, it's simply up to the individual to prioritise what they want more out of the early part of the game - the chance to get a world first, or to take the game at their preferred pace.

It could be argued that I shouldn't have to prioritize rushing through the content or missing part of the "rewards".

If you're saying world firsts aren't part of the rewards then they shouldn't be called achievements that "anyone" can possibly get. If they ARE rewards for completing games the developers are essentially forcing people to choose how to play their game.

The thing is world firsts really aren't "more" options because it doesn't really give people the option of "choosing" between rushing and not-rushing to get them, because if they don't rush to get them then they can never get them.

Personally I feel if they keep it in a separate category that people can ignore, go for it, but if I have to constantly log in every day and be reminded of my lack of world firsts because I didn't rush, it will get annoying real quickly.

I don't want a category of achievements that is pretty much empty taunting me day in and day out, even Blizzard's "Feats of Strength" section of achievements annoyed me because a lot of those will never be obtainable again.

I don't think forcing players to prioritize getting a world first or playing the game at their pace is the best option out there, I personally feel achievements for finishing content are fine, this isn't like EQ 1 where world firsts took months of organizing 50-100 person raids, camping sections of zones and praying for that rare spawn to drop, only to have the server go down right beforehand....

If world firsts are "meaningless" then they shouldn't be implemented, if they have meaning then they shouldn't be implemented because then they only benefit a VERY small percentage of players.

One last thing I want to point out is how do you adjudicate two players that get the same world first at the exact same time? It won't be so unique then will it?

Food for thought, I'm not a fan of options that only benefit a very small percentage of the players and that leads to gloating/exponential account value(due to rarity) for those that put rushing through content ahead of actually enjoying said content.

It's like if someone skips a line at an amusement park and then the ride attendant decides to reward them for it while those waiting patiently get turned away when they get to the front of the line.

Xenavire
09-20-2013, 06:26 AM
Well, I want to chip in here. Jax and Blake have good points, but what if instead of world firsts, they implement some kind of mastery achievements? Not anything to do with being the first, but with being thorough and dedicated. Of course, it wouldn't be as unique, but if it was difficult to do, it would be sought after.

Think along the lines of loremaster or glory of the ___ raider, or the dungeon hero achievements from WoW. Something to show you have mastered the content.

Seems a better show of skill than a world first, personally. And it should not be easy, or something that can be 'boosted' through.

I wouldn't advise it to be too strict like win in X turns though.

Mire options for Jax, and a real show of skill for Blake.

zadies
09-20-2013, 09:00 AM
Was talking specifically about World First achievements encouraging a pay to win atmosphere in pve Kami.
Also I was pointing out there are a variety of threads moaning about PvP being pay to play not commenting on it being a bad thing.
Now if you encourage a pay to win atmosphere in what is the supposedly free to play portion of the game(I know it is free to play but world firsts would encourage a pay to win atmosphere) then you have defeated the purpose of making pve free to play or at least there are those in multiple communities who will take it that way.

Also I wasn't endorsing the idea that PvP should be f2p or anything of that nature only look at some of the threads like
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=27551
And there really isn't anything in pve that currently actively encourages getting a super cool destroy it all deck as quickly as possible but World First achievements would do just that.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26981
On the subject about people complaining about having to pay to PvP

Gwaer
09-20-2013, 01:22 PM
World firsts aren't pay to win. According to Cory PVE is going to be very difficult. It's going to be a huge challenge to get past many parts of it, money and cards or no. update is out! hold that thought.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-20-2013, 01:51 PM
It could be argued that I shouldn't have to prioritize rushing through the content or missing part of the "rewards".
You don't have to prioritize that - it's your choice which you choose to do.


If you're saying world firsts aren't part of the rewards then they shouldn't be called achievements that "anyone" can possibly get. If they ARE rewards for completing games the developers are essentially forcing people to choose how to play their game.
Everyone has a choice about how they're going to play Hex. To PvE, to PvP, to do both, to be hardcore, to be casual, to rush through PvE to get to the endgame, or to go through it slowly to soak it all in. This is just one more choice that will be available early on with content - to rush through to endgame to try and get the achievement.

Personally, when it comes to WoW, I've always been a rush-to-endgame player as that's the part of the content I enjoy. But I know not everyone's like that. There are players that go through each zone and want to see the story. There are players that twink and stay low level. There are players that only level via dungeons, enjoying the social experience. To each their own.


The thing is world firsts really aren't "more" options because it doesn't really give people the option of "choosing" between rushing and not-rushing to get them, because if they don't rush to get them then they can never get them.
It gives people the option of going for them, or not. Yes, it's only a one time option, but world firsts by their very definition are only available once - to the first people that get them. It's still a choice - and if you decide it's not what you want to do, that's your prerogative.


Personally I feel if they keep it in a separate category that people can ignore, go for it, but if I have to constantly log in every day and be reminded of my lack of world firsts because I didn't rush, it will get annoying real quickly.
Why would you be reminded of it every day? There is going to be one player for each world first, compared to the entire player base. Unless you happen to be looking at that <0.01% of the player base every day, you'd only be reminding yourself. :-P


I don't want a category of achievements that is pretty much empty taunting me day in and day out, even Blizzard's "Feats of Strength" section of achievements annoyed me because a lot of those will never be obtainable again.
I liked the Feats of Strength. I was very proud to have a few, most notably the Immortal. I earnt that through a lot of effort. In any case, the achievements don't even show up unless you have them (if they do it like WoW), so you'd be reminding yourself.


I don't think forcing players to prioritize getting a world first or playing the game at their pace is the best option out there, I personally feel achievements for finishing content are fine, this isn't like EQ 1 where world firsts took months of organizing 50-100 person raids, camping sections of zones and praying for that rare spawn to drop, only to have the server go down right beforehand....
They're not forcing you. It's your choice.


If world firsts are "meaningless" then they shouldn't be implemented, if they have meaning then they shouldn't be implemented because then they only benefit a VERY small percentage of players.
They're not meaningless. They indicate who did something first. While that's all they do (as in, they don't automatically say someone is more skilled or more talented at PvE), it still shows who won the race to doing that particular content first.


One last thing I want to point out is how do you adjudicate two players that get the same world first at the exact same time? It won't be so unique then will it?
If it's the exact same time, cool bananas. The odds of that happening are astronomically small though. In WoW though, with server first raids, the team who gets it first gets the achieve, even if another team gets it within minutes of the first. You literally have to cross the line first. Though for some achieves I believe (I may be wrong on this, can't remember if it's from Bizz or from my guild talking about it pre-MoP) that once the first person gets it, a window opens for a minute or two where anyone else can get the achieve, after which it's closed off.

In any case though, if 2, 3, or even 4 people have a world first achievement - it's still a much, much, much smaller number than the entire playerbase.


Food for thought, I'm not a fan of options that only benefit a very small percentage of the players and that leads to gloating/exponential account value(due to rarity) for those that put rushing through content ahead of actually enjoying said content.
Who said we aren't going to enjoy the content? Rushing and enjoyment aren't mutually exclusive. ;-)


It's like if someone skips a line at an amusement park and then the ride attendant decides to reward them for it while those waiting patiently get turned away when they get to the front of the line.
This analogy ignores the fact that the people who earn it are likely going to have to put in a lot of effort to actually get it. It's more akin to this - it's like if someone skips a line at an amusement park because they're in the middle of a cross country road race and don't want to lose time to someone else in that race (stopping at the amusement park was mandatory we'll say), so those people who kept going have a chance at winning the race, and the people who decided to stay at the amusement park get to enjoy the rides, then finish travelling cross country afterwards at whatever pace they want to.



Now, I'm not actually saying your wrong - these are both our opinions. I'm just highlighting that I don't think it's anywhere near as one sided as I felt your post was. In any case, I can see how it might be frustrating for someone that can't feasibly get free time when normal-PvE comes out but would've liked to have gone for the achievement. I actually understand that quite well - but ultimately, I feel like most balanced people would understand that only a very small number of people will get world firsts, and not having them is no big deal.

To actually give a real life example, with MoP I actually went for server first paladin. I was also hoping for overall character, but I new my GM had done about 3 or 4 levelling runs on the beta so was very, very prepared (he ended up getting to 90 about 3 or 4 hours before anyone else). I got on the game as soon as the server was up, and spent very little time not playing it. But I hadn't prepared enough (I'd only done about half a levelling run myself), and lost server first paladin by about 30 minutes.

Truth be told, I wasn't even that frustrated. I would've been quite proud to get that limited edition achievement, but at the end of the day, it wasn't going to affect my future gameplay. Furthermore, I was happy to have reached maximum level - I could experience all the content that MoP had to offer thanks to already being 90, and I got to have an easier time when I went back to do all the zones, given my level and gear superiority.

With Hex, even if they don't have world firsts I'd still rush to endgame. Many players are like me, and they'll try to get through the content as quickly as possible, have all content available to them, then go back at their leisure to do whatever content they want. If I rush in Hex, but fail to get any world firsts - big whoop, I still have the entire game to play.

zadies
09-20-2013, 07:35 PM
Getting free runs to figure out the best leveling start is completely diffent then paying to start 6 hours before everyone else.
You only have to beat one dungeon per raid so you can buy out any cards needed from the others literally shaving hours off your time.
Pay to win in this context literally is a time advantage gwear while you may not need to pay to beat raid/duengeon x you can pay to have an advantage no matter how small thus the achievement that is first come gets it and no one else does is pay to win.

Thunderbringer
09-20-2013, 07:43 PM
World firsts imho is meaningless, only because it affects a tiny percentage of players. Really a very tiny... i mean three people in a raid will get the achievement? So only those three people will get it?

Anyway i am not against it AS LONG AS there is not a grayed-out line on my achievements (like in Tera's world firsts) constantly reminding me my failure to achieve this. I am a completionist and i would really like not to be reminded of things i could definetelly not accomplish due to my time zone.

Stok3d
09-21-2013, 07:30 AM
Anyway i am not against it AS LONG AS there is not a grayed-out line on my achievements (like in Tera's world firsts) constantly reminding me my failure to achieve this. I am a completionist and i would really like not to be reminded of things i could definetelly not accomplish due to my time zone.

WoW has done it quite well by using a separate category stating "Feats of Strength" and this particular list does not list out all that have been available--only the ones you completed. For the record though, I do support all the other categories easily identifying what you haven't completed though. I too am a completionist and agree with your statement.

jetah
09-21-2013, 10:38 AM
IMO: no world first achievements. Only have a date tagged on your achievement and people can argue what time they did it.

with no wipes in between (open) beta and launch, we shouldn't have any world first achievements. Now if CZE decided to do a wipe before Live and everyone would start from scratch at live then I could agree with having World First.

Thunderbringer
09-21-2013, 10:45 AM
@ Stok3d:

Indeed everything else achievable should be grayed out so that we keep track of what we completionists have to do. And yes something like the Feats of Strength if they decide to go the World Firsts way would be a good idea. I dont want to see something grayed out knowing i CANT do it ;-( I only want to see it that way so that I know its still there waiting for me to complete it :-)

Gwaer
09-21-2013, 10:53 AM
There won't be PVE to get world firsts on until release for the most part. The only exception to that is likely a singular PVE dungeon towards the end of beta.

SuperPueppi
09-21-2013, 11:51 AM
WoW has done it quite well by using a separate category stating "Feats of Strength" and this particular list does not list out all that have been available--only the ones you completed. For the record though, I do support all the other categories easily identifying what you haven't completed though. I too am a completionist and agree with your statement.

Did they change that in WoW with the Feats of Strength? (I stopped playing still quite early in WotLK and think back then you could still see the others grayed out). By chance I got one of them (Ragnaros Hammer, Server-first for Horde), and with all others grayed out it felt like, yeah you did s.th. cool, but missed out on tons of others, which in many cases were unobtainable.
And I must say the memories I have from actually getting the Hammer handed over to me by the Guild-Smith in Ogrimmar with lots of people watching and simply being happy with me was way more satisfying then having it show up in that stupid list.
So related to this topic, even though I am not interested in world firsts, I am begging they are not including them in a list that's connected to your account.

I'm with you on the list of potentially achievable achievements, no matter how hard they might be - if they are game-relevant and not just timesinks. That was another thing that just put me off of even trying with WoW achievements, there were just so incredibly many, that I would have devoted my life to getting them all.

Yoss
09-26-2013, 11:47 AM
They said they will have all sort of achievements, and especially on cards (http://hextcg.com/double-back/), but i don't have an official link where they specifically said about world firsts (i promise to search though )

Maybe try the Knights of the Round interview?