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loopholist3
09-19-2013, 08:29 AM
I would really like to see the official rules before alpha, instead of guessing and checking during it. I know that everyone is working under the assumption that the rules are going to be just like MTG, but there are plenty of places where it could be different.

For example, if I have a 2/2 on the field and I target it with charge, and in response my opponent targets it with burn. In MTG there would be a 2/2 in the graveyard because there are no permanent stat increases, all tokens leave a creature upon exiting the field, and because the charge would lose its target upon it dying. In hex though, there is no reason why it can't be a 3/3 in the graveyard.

Another example is, can I have infinite resource cards in my deck, or can I only have infinite basic resources. In MTG it is basic resources, but again there is no reason why that has to be true here.

I am sure there are several other examples were we are currently working under rule assumptions based off of MTG. I just want to be able to read the rules instead of trying to think of all of my assumptions and then forcing a game into that scenario where I can test them during alpha.

jetah
09-19-2013, 08:34 AM
Have to wait till Fridays update.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-19-2013, 08:37 AM
As for resources/basic resources, that's answered in the "How to Play" section of the main site:


You can play with up to four copies of any given card in your deck, except for basic resource cards, of which you can play an unlimited number.

But I do agree; I'd love to actually see a rule book. ^^

MoonSohn
09-19-2013, 08:41 AM
There are various cards that reduce the health of a card before it even hits the field, I'd like to know how that works as well.

Shadowelf
09-19-2013, 08:41 AM
This is all i could find




When will we see an official rule book for Hex?



I'm not sure about exact official rule book plans just yet.

Tinuvas
09-19-2013, 08:56 AM
The ONLY reason I'm not all complaining about the same thing is that we get alpha access. If all of us had to wait until beta or launch when our decisions would have in-game consequences before even being able to learn the game, that would be bad. With alpha access, however, I'm not so concerned. We'll be able to nail down interactions before they become relevant, and my guess is that during that time the 'official' rulebook will be written anyway.

hex_colin
09-19-2013, 08:59 AM
Whilst useful, I'm not in any real rush to see a "rule book". It's not like we'll ever be debating/interpreting rules - the software makes all those decisions.

Now, if things in a game don't resolve the way we expect it's useful to have a reference to report potential bugs, etc.

loopholist3
09-19-2013, 09:00 AM
Just to be clear, I expect the official rulebook that I am requesting to be an alpha rulebook. Meaning that it is okay if some edge cases are not covered, or they get changed. As long as the intention is conveyed.

hex_colin
09-19-2013, 09:05 AM
I just want to be able to read the rules instead of trying to think of all of my assumptions and then forcing a game into that scenario where I can test them during alpha.

Bolding mine. Isn't that the exact reason for participating in Alpha testing? ;)

loopholist3
09-19-2013, 09:09 AM
The ONLY reason I'm not all complaining about the same thing is that we get alpha access. If all of us had to wait until beta or launch when our decisions would have in-game consequences before even being able to learn the game, that would be bad. With alpha access, however, I'm not so concerned. We'll be able to nail down interactions before they become relevant, and my guess is that during that time the 'official' rulebook will be written anyway.

How can we report game mechanic bugs in alpha, if we do not have anything that tells us how they are supposed to work.

loopholist3
09-19-2013, 09:12 AM
I just want to be able to read the rules instead of trying to think of all of my assumptions and then forcing a game into that scenario where I can test them during alpha.Bolding mine. Isn't that the exact reason for participating in Alpha testing? ;)

Good job pulling my statement out of context. If we create a unique scenario to test what the rules are, then we will assume that the result of that scenario is the correct result, regardless of if it is or not.

Turtlewing
09-19-2013, 09:15 AM
The ONLY reason I'm not all complaining about the same thing is that we get alpha access. If all of us had to wait until beta or launch when our decisions would have in-game consequences before even being able to learn the game, that would be bad. With alpha access, however, I'm not so concerned. We'll be able to nail down interactions before they become relevant, and my guess is that during that time the 'official' rulebook will be written anyway.

They really should have the official rulebook written already (would be part of the specifications for programing card interactions and internal QA). The question is whether it's been formatted and edited for the general public.

It would also be a good idea to make the rulebook available at the same time as or before public Alpha just so we can look up the rules before reporting something as a bug.

Blackhoof
09-19-2013, 09:20 AM
I think rulebook is needed because if we don't know some tricky details of Hex rules we can misunderstand some game situations: here is a bug but i suppose it works fine and there is normal game situation but i can suppose it is a bug. Especially if this situation is not in my favor.
I don't want to feel like "damn this buggy Hex, I've lost again!". And it's more correct to read manual than to create game situation (in PvE or with my friends) to check how these cards work together. It can be even more frustrating after alpha. And during alpha it can cause many wrong bugreports even from intellegent testers.

hex_colin
09-19-2013, 09:23 AM
Good job pulling my statement out of context. If we create a unique scenario to test what the rules are, then we will assume that the result of that scenario is the correct result, regardless of if it is or not.

It was a light-hearted joke. I didn't think it needed context. And, had you read my earlier comment - I agree that having the rules would make reporting bugs easier.

I'd personally prefer CZE to spend their time on the software so that we can play. :) And then get us the rules!

Yasi
09-19-2013, 09:26 AM
I follow my own rules.

Leingod
09-19-2013, 10:19 AM
I agree that some official set of rules being released pre-alpha would help the testing process immensely.

Diesbudt
09-19-2013, 10:27 AM
For example, if I have a 2/2 on the field and I target it with charge, and in response my opponent targets it with burn. In MTG there would be a 2/2 in the graveyard because there are no permanent stat increases, all tokens leave a creature upon exiting the field, and because the charge would lose its target upon it dying. In hex though, there is no reason why it can't be a 3/3 in the graveyard.



I believe how this one would play out is just like this: (Chain, from last to first as most games like this)

So the 2/2 creature is targeted with charge, and then targeted with Burn. So burn plays out first. The 2/2 creature takes the 2 damage, which drops him to 0 "health". Thus the results must be played out. This Means the creature enters the graveyard "dead". Now the Charge (assuming Hex mechanics here) would target "the dead card" and give it +1/+1. Thus being a dead 3/3. And at end of turn all the damage would be removed, but the creature stays in the graveyard. (once in, always in unless a card specifies)

This is just my assumption.

Kami
09-19-2013, 10:49 AM
Magic follows FILO (First in, Last out) rule of resolution. I'd expect Hex to play-out the same way, given the similarities.

1. 2/2 targeted with Charge (+1/+1).
2. Opponent targets with burn for 2 damage.
3. 2/2 dies and is sent to Graveyard.
4. Charge resolves without a valid target.
5. 2/2 is in Graveyard still.

Soul-of-Void
09-19-2013, 10:58 PM
We can only wait for friday update, who knows maybe there will be rule book too or date when they release one.

Aradon
09-20-2013, 05:36 AM
I don't think we have enough information to decide how Hex will handle the 'Charge on a 2/2 scenario'. Comparing to Magic isn't helpful right now. In Magic, buff spells that target creatures that have died have two problems: 1) When cards change zones other than from the stack to the battlefield, they become new objects, breaking the targetting, and 2) a creature on the battlefield that dies becomes a creature card in the graveyard, but not a creature. Giant Growth, for example, can't target a creature that's in the graveyard, because while in the graveyard, a card is not actually a creature, it's just a creature card.

Now, we've seen Hex able to track cards across zone changes, but I'm not sure about their wording/processing. They've treated troops in other zones as troops, which is clearly different from Magic. Specifically, they can have damage marked on them or be destroyed. However, I really doubt it is their intention to allow you to target a troop in a graveyard with Ruby Lance or an Aura, which makes me think that at some point they will clarify their wording. In the end, I don't believe you'll be able to give a dead creature +1/+1 from charge, even if it was on the battlefield when you targeted it, but we don't have enough information yet.

Kami
09-20-2013, 06:05 AM
From a logical perspective: How do you buff a creature that is dead? And by dead, I don't mean undead.

I mean, even from a non-game point of view, that seems silly. Keep in mind that the card game itself is only an analogy for a 'war' that's being fought - things still have to make sense to some degree. :)

loopholist3
09-20-2013, 06:25 AM
From a logical perspective: How do you buff a creature that is dead? And by dead, I don't mean undead.

I mean, even from a non-game point of view, that seems silly. Keep in mind that the card game itself is only an analogy for a 'war' that's being fought - things still have to make sense to some degree. :)

Why couldn't you give a dead guy a fancy new sword. Sure he might not be doing very much with it now, but if ever decides to become undead, he will be ready. Sure it might not make sense for a card named charge, but a charge giving a permanent boost means that it is a moral boost instead of an actual charge. So that just means that the dead guy wakes up in an abnormally good mood, which can be justified by saying that the spirits of the dead remain around their bodies for a duration.

ossuary
09-20-2013, 08:35 AM
Realistically speaking, either scenario could be valid, depending on how CZE's intention for the rules play out. Both could work, and both could be explained logically. The only thing we know for sure is that if a creature dies, an ability on that creature doesn't trigger (this was clarified during the Q&A with Ben Stoll, where he confirmed that if you deal 2 damage to the hydra, it doesn't become a 4/4 in your graveyard, because it dies before its ability can trigger).

But that clarification doesn't guarantee that some OTHER trigger that's already on the stack won't work, it just means that a dead / dying creature doesn't initiate a new ability onto the stack during resolution of its own death.

Yoss
09-26-2013, 11:51 AM
I'm assuming/hoping that they will have a "Rules" section of the in-game GUI, and that would be good enough for me.

chromus
09-26-2013, 02:04 PM
Unless any creature already in your graveyard can also be targeted by Charge (which seems foolish for this case but could have applications for other card combos), it would not make sense for the Charge on a creature that has just gone there after a response to the casting of the Charge to resolve.

loopholist3
09-27-2013, 08:59 AM
Unless any creature already in your graveyard can also be targeted by Charge (which seems foolish for this case but could have applications for other card combos), it would not make sense for the Charge on a creature that has just gone there after a response to the casting of the Charge to resolve.

Why, sure it might not be useful, but both reasons why it doesn't work in magic doesn't have to apply in hex. As previously stated, this doesn't work in magic because creature cards that are not on the field are not creatures, but as proven by Spirit Dance, troops in your deck in hex are still troops, so the same should apply to the graveyard. The other reason why this doesn't work is because every time a card changes zones in magic it becomes a new objects, which is why you can "dodge" targeted spells with a bounce card. In hex, we have yet to have any reason to believe whether this is true or false.

Assuming a game works the same way magic does is actually a really bad habit for gamers. I can't tell you how many times I have had to to tell and be told that "there is no stack in this game" whenever I am playing a board game. Just the other day I had to tell my friend that there is no mana pool in the board game we were playing. This habit is only going to get worse when you are playing a game that is already like magic. This just reinforces why we need official rules before people get into alpha and start reporting false bugs.

houjix
09-27-2013, 09:11 AM
Things are already shaping up to need the same type of timing/targeting rules as Magic and WoW. And from those of us that have played or watched the streams can confirm that from almost everything we've seen, that is what they are using.

Shadowspawn
09-27-2013, 10:03 AM
from my perspective, I would expect that Burn to be somewhat ineffective and a 3/3(1) to be left. see - we needz rulez.

loopholist3
09-27-2013, 10:15 AM
Things are already shaping up to need the same type of timing/targeting rules as Magic and WoW. And from those of us that have played or watched the streams can confirm that from almost everything we've seen, that is what they are using.

As a stream watcher, I have yet to see any scenario that would provide an answer to this. I can agree that everything we have seen has been very magic like, but it is pretty rare that they ever view their graveyard during a stream. I did not get to play the game in person, so I had no experience to pull from that. If the hex rules just end up being copy pasta from the magic rulebook, then so be it. Assuming this to be true though is like seeing someone playing Axis and Allies and assuming they are playing Risk.

houjix
09-27-2013, 11:23 AM
Assuming this to be true though is like seeing someone playing Axis and Allies and assuming they are playing Risk.

The leap from Magic to Hex is a much tinier gap that Risk to A&A. It's more like seeing someone play any of the hundreds of versions of Monopoly that have minor theme related variations and assuming they are just playing Monopoly. There will be a few oh that's a little different moments, but not enough to where you'll get totally lost.

Arkaal
09-27-2013, 12:00 PM
For example, if I have a 2/2 on the field and I target it with charge, and in response my opponent targets it with burn. In MTG there would be a 2/2 in the graveyard because there are no permanent stat increases, all tokens leave a creature upon exiting the field, and because the charge would lose its target upon it dying. In hex though, there is no reason why it can't be a 3/3 in the graveyard.

At gencon, a similar situation played out, so I can at least answer this.

My opponent plays a Radiant Armor (for +0/+4), targeting her Chimera Guard Outrider in play(a 0/4). In response, I cast Murder on the Outrider.

She ended with a 0/8 Outrider in her graveyard.

Kami
09-27-2013, 12:10 PM
At gencon, a similar situation played out, so I can at least answer this.

My opponent plays a Radiant Armor (for +0/+4), targeting her Chimera Guard Outrider in play(a 0/4). In response, I cast Murder on the Outrider.

She ended with a 0/8 Outrider in her graveyard.

Unfortunately without a full rules set, we don't know if that's intended or a bug.

MaxtionHero
09-27-2013, 12:29 PM
At gencon, a similar situation played out, so I can at least answer this.

My opponent plays a Radiant Armor (for +0/+4), targeting her Chimera Guard Outrider in play(a 0/4). In response, I cast Murder on the Outrider.

She ended with a 0/8 Outrider in her graveyard.

If that is intended, it's very interesting. Negates some card advantage with response plays.