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Ashran
09-22-2013, 02:44 PM
I have several questions about game mechanics that I would like to address before Alpha, in part so we know how they are intended to work and we can verify them come October. To start, here are some Inspire questions:

1. Most Inspire effects can either clearly be applied multiple times (Ruby Pyromancer) or are keywords or abilities that only apply once (Shield Trainer). But what about Cerulean Mirror Knight? If I have two CMK's in play and I drop a Void Leech Phantasm, does it receive the card draw ability twice? Please say yes.

2. How does Inspire interact with transform effects? For instance, if I have an Incantation of Fear in play and it receives a 5th counter, would the Nightmare it transforms into be Inspired by a Phoenix Guard Trainer? On the one hand, the card was already in play. On the other, it did just become a 3-cost troop under my control.

3. Ditto for steal effects like Mancubus. It was already in play, but now it's in play under my control. (This seems less likely to apply Inspire than a transform, but I want to be sure.)

Thanks in advance!

Aradon
09-22-2013, 03:36 PM
If it's anything like magic:
1) Yes, you'll draw twice. It has the ability twice, so it will trigger twice. Similar instances for things like steadfast actually happen twice, but it doesn't matter. By that I mean, two shield trainers mean an inspired troop will have two instances of Steadfast, but it'll never be important, since they are redundant.
2) Inspire triggers on a troop entering the battlefield, so unless the card enters the battlefield, it won't trigger. Transforming doesn't enter the battlefield, it changes an object already on the battlefield. This means the new object won't be affected by troop trauma, but it also doesn't enter the battlefield for inspiration.
3) Same as above. The creature exchanges control, but does not re-enter the battlefield, so it doesn't trigger inspire effects.

ossuary
09-22-2013, 03:38 PM
All good questions. We probably don't have enough info to be sure quite yet.

That being said, for #1, I would not expect for it to get the modified text twice. Just because those words are not associated with a keyword ability doesn't mean you can double them up and have both of them trigger.

The other two, we don't really have any way to know for sure until the exact rules for zone changes and transformation are clarified. My gut says that the transformed creature would get inspired (and any transformation that doesn't say revert first, would also keep any permanent adjustments it already had), but that's just me guessing based on logic and what we've seen of the rules printed on the cards.

Shadowelf
09-22-2013, 04:13 PM
I think that Aradon is right concerning questions 2-3




-If a card enters play from another zone, no matter what, it is considered to have just "entered play." So for example, if Uruunaz comes back from the graveyard into play, his power will trigger.

-When a card transforms, the zone its in does not change, so transforming a troop in play into Urunaaz would not trigger his power.

As for 1 what we know is ;



Note however that a troop cannot have multiple instances of the same keyword, so stacking those effects is useless, but stacking the stat modifiers is good.


So inspire stacks stats but not keywords; as for effects there is not further explanation/clarification.

MugenMusou
09-22-2013, 05:10 PM
I think that Aradon is right concerning questions 2-3



As for 1 what we know is ;



So inspire stacks stats but not keywords; as for effects there is not further explanation/clarification.

I'm just always impressed by your reply as they are always backed up by reference.

Keep it up!

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-22-2013, 07:30 PM
As a Magic judge, just backing up that if it operates like Magic, it's exactly how Aradon stated - CMK will stack (think of it like rage - multiple rage triggers stack because they all add something extra; while a creature would actually get multiple instances of flight/steadfast/speed etc, multiple instances of them are redundant as the second+ don't do anything that the first doesn't already do). Transform likely won't trigger as the transforming troop isn't leaving the battlefield. Same for stealing a troop.

Aradon
09-22-2013, 07:41 PM
Apparently the word from Devs is that steadfast can't stack. I find it odd that they will have to explicitly make a rule in the comprehensive rulebook that prevents creatures from gaining redundant abilities. A rule which serves no functional purpose? Exceptions solely to avoid people going "Does steadfast stack?" They'd have to classify which ability words are redundant and which aren't, because clearly rage stacks (we have heard this several times) while flight would not. It's very odd to me, and I hope that this is reversed when they sit down and compile the official rulebook, but if not, I guess it's not significant either way.

ossuary
09-22-2013, 08:02 PM
It doesn't make any sense to say that the card would gain the ability to draw cards twice, stacked on top of each other. If there was an inspire card that says "this troop counts as a tree," and you had two of them in play, would you say casting a new troop gave you two trees? :p

Ashran
09-22-2013, 09:06 PM
It doesn't make any sense to say that the card would gain the ability to draw cards twice, stacked on top of each other.

Sure it does. My Phoenix Guard Scout now says:

Flight
When this troop deals damage to an opposing champion, draw a card.
When this troop deals damage to an opposing champion, draw a card.

Both abilities resolve when it damages my opponent. The question here is whether the text the card gains from the CMK is exclusive of itself. There is nothing in the wording of the card or current rulings to indicate that it is, and other abilities like Rage stack just fine. But I want to know from the creators what their intention is, so I know what the game *should* be doing and can test for it. And also because I love Sapphire and want the CMK to be badass. :)

ossuary
09-23-2013, 03:49 AM
Rage stacks because it was specifically built to stack. It's part of the keyword's functionality. All rage numbers add up. None of the other keywords have numbers, or work that way. You can't give a creature swiftstrike twice, and have it hit before creatures with only one swiftstrike. None of it works that way, except rage, which is specifically designed to do so.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-23-2013, 04:36 AM
It doesn't make any sense to say that the card would gain the ability to draw cards twice, stacked on top of each other. If there was an inspire card that says "this troop counts as a tree," and you had two of them in play, would you say casting a new troop gave you two trees? :p
It's as Aradon said. Keep in mind that this is going off MTG rules.

In MTG, if you enchant a Grizzly Bears with two Curiosity, it will have "when enchanted creature deals damage to an opponent, draw a card; when enchanted creature deals damage to an opponent, draw a card". So you'll draw two cards if you deal damage to an opponent with that bear.

Have they actually said that non-redundant abilities won't stack? I can see them not giving an extra instance of steadfast or flight because it could take up space on a card, which could make it unnecessarily cluttered in some cases, and I could also see that being the reason why they make it Rage 2 instead of Rage 1, Rage 1 (if that's what they do - I might check out the Orcs gameplay video to see if they trigger separately) - but I haven't seen them say an ability like CMK wouldn't stack, and I imagine it will, even if it's also simplified to say "whenever ~ deals combat damage to an opponent, draw 2 cards".

The_Wine_Gnat
09-23-2013, 03:29 PM
I don't see anything that suggests CMK does not stack. Ashran's example (see below) seems pretty spot on. Keep in mind, I have a different perspective by having little to no TCG experience. As a new player, that is how I would interpret it.

Sure it does. My Phoenix Guard Scout now says:

Flight
When this troop deals damage to an opposing champion, draw a card.
When this troop deals damage to an opposing champion, draw a card.

Ashran
09-30-2013, 07:55 PM
Bump. While I like the discussion, I would still like to get an answer from CZE on these questions. We need to know things like this in order to properly Alpha test, otherwise how do we know it's behaving as expected?

ossuary
09-30-2013, 08:01 PM
Bumping is a violation of the code of conduct. If you haven't gotten a staff answer, you're probably not going to. Don't bump your thread with a content-free post just to attempt to get it back on the main page.

Ashran
09-30-2013, 11:32 PM
Bumping is a violation of the code of conduct. If you haven't gotten a staff answer, you're probably not going to. Don't bump your thread with a content-free post just to attempt to get it back on the main page.

My apologies, everyone, both for this post and the other one I just made on my Unique troops thread. It won't happen again.