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Zarien
09-24-2013, 12:53 PM
Hey everyone,

I was trying to find this information, and I don't remember if its been mentioned in a twitch video/podcast etc. Has CZE said if the Keep system will include PvE cards only, PvP cards only, or a mix? I thought this had been touched on, but the search function wasn't bringing up anything relevant. Thanks for your time!

Grimthorn
09-24-2013, 01:20 PM
My guess would be PVP only to start.

I think it would be too unpredictable for it to include the PvE cards.

Umaro
09-24-2013, 01:26 PM
My guess would be PVP only to start.

I think it would be too unpredictable for it to include the PvE cards.

Keep defense is, in essence, a PVE-related activity. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if it was both PVE and PVP cards. However, I think that I would prefer it be PVP cards exclusively. Just preference and speculation, but that's my two cents here.

Kami
09-24-2013, 01:48 PM
I'd be curious to see if a 'Ghost' system were available. Have the AI learn how you play a deck you build, give them champions/mercenaries and equipment to boot.

Deciphered
09-24-2013, 02:02 PM
I'd be curious to see if a 'Ghost' system were available. Have the AI learn how you play a deck you build, give them champions/mercenaries and equipment to boot.

In my head, I'd been assuming that the AI would defend your keep for you if you weren't online (or maybe even if you were online). That building a keep defense deck would be the game, but that it would play itself. I will freely admit that I had been assuming this for no particular reason, as there isn't much evidence to back me up, but I still think it would be neat. It would be a good play on CZE's part, too, as it would be basically enlisting the player base to create a wildly diverse set of solo PvE content.

Of course, now that I'm thinking about it, keep defense would be great with players on both sides, too. Perhaps they could do it both ways, with the rewards being better for the attacker if they face a human instead of an AI. Or, alternately, with the rewards being the same, but with the AI getting some slight advantage (conceptualized as keep walls).

Either way, I would vote for all cards to be legal for this format, as it is truly a blend of PvP and PvE content.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-24-2013, 02:04 PM
Keep defense is, in essence, a PVE-related activity. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if it was both PVE and PVP cards. However, I think that I would prefer it be PVP cards exclusively. Just preference and speculation, but that's my two cents here.
I definitely agree - I'd prefer it to be PvP cards only too. There's the potential for some brutally fast+strong combos in PvE, so if PvE is included and keeps aren't given enough anti-combo options, the attacker should have a major advantage.

BornMilitary
09-24-2013, 02:20 PM
I can't find the quote but keep defense is controlled by the AI. If there are any rewards for rankings etc. could be abused too easily if the defending keep was player controlled I imagine.

Vibraxus
09-24-2013, 02:22 PM
Keep defense is, in essence, a PVE-related activity. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if it was both PVE and PVP cards. However, I think that I would prefer it be PVP cards exclusively. Just preference and speculation, but that's my two cents here.

If it were PvP only cards, then this is just another game mode. I personally want it to be a free for all.

Idus
09-24-2013, 02:50 PM
I definitely agree - I'd prefer it to be PvP cards only too. There's the potential for some brutally fast+strong combos in PvE, so if PvE is included and keeps aren't given enough anti-combo options, the attacker should have a major advantage.

Don't forget, you will be creating 3 different decks to create your keep defense, that players must battle through. This is where the skill comes in, being able to create 3 complimentary decks that in total, will be able to bring down whatever the attacking players can bring against it with their single deck choice.

I am also hopeful that we will be able to give our AI keep lords some additional powers to help buff them against players, although these buffs couldn't be insane, or the value of the deck building game would be diminished too much.

Grimthorn
09-24-2013, 03:24 PM
As I drove home, I kinda realized that there isn't any reason that the keep couldn't be of a restricted format.

So that you set up the rules of the keep and get to make a decks by the same rules. You mark the keep as PVP only and you and your opponents can only use decks compatible with that format.

And perhaps as you level up you can create more and more types/conditions. IE: Troop only, No Constants, No Ruby cards, Current Block only etc...

Thereby giving the keep makers a slight feel for what it would be like to create a dungeon of their very own.

As with everything around this game, possibilities are endless.

Umaro
09-24-2013, 03:48 PM
I definitely agree - I'd prefer it to be PvP cards only too. There's the potential for some brutally fast+strong combos in PvE, so if PvE is included and keeps aren't given enough anti-combo options, the attacker should have a major advantage.
Anti-combo options would be the easiest fix to this. Establish certain restrictions based on the Keep owner's preferences, or give us "Keep Defense" cards that are above curve. This way, the Keep deck could be slightly over-powered, making the advantage in favor of the Keep deck.


If it were PvP only cards, then this is just another game mode. I personally want it to be a free for all.
If it were all cards, then this would be just another game mode. The challenge lies in building decks that are at least difficult to compete against. If PVE cards were included, then good keeps would be running the turn 2/3 combo decks that have been discussed and games would come down to who goes first most of the time.


Don't forget, you will be creating 3 different decks to create your keep defense, that players must battle through. This is where the skill comes in, being able to create 3 complimentary decks that in total, will be able to bring down whatever the attacking players can bring against it with their single deck choice.

I am also hopeful that we will be able to give our AI keep lords some additional powers to help buff them against players, although these buffs couldn't be insane, or the value of the deck building game would be diminished too much.

Is that how it's going to work? 3v3? I thought it was going to be 1v1, but the deck that players competed against would be randomly one of three decks that the keep owner built.


As I drove home, I kinda realized that there isn't any reason that the keep couldn't be of a restricted format.

So that you set up the rules of the keep and get to make a decks by the same rules. You mark the keep as PVP only and you and your opponents can only use decks compatible with that format.

And perhaps as you level up you can create more and more types/conditions. IE: Troop only, No Constants, No Ruby cards, Current Block only etc...

Thereby giving the keep makers a slight feel for what it would be like to create a dungeon of their very own.

As with everything around this game, possibilities are endless.

That is exactly what I assumed Keep defense would be like. Create your own dungeon-esque deck to protect your keep.

jetah
09-24-2013, 04:28 PM
This sounds interesting!!

I do like the idea of building a 'dungeon' via the keep.

zadies
09-24-2013, 05:08 PM
Keep defense seems like an introduction to PvP for pve players though given all PvP stuff happens on the account level rather then the keep level which is where pve starts.

Idus
09-24-2013, 06:00 PM
Is that how it's going to work? 3v3? I thought it was going to be 1v1, but the deck that players competed against would be randomly one of three decks that the keep owner built.

It is a player with his 1 deck having to beat all 3 of your decks. If you go have a listen here http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 from about 47 - 50 minutes, Cory gives a good overview on this.

Kilo24
09-24-2013, 06:12 PM
There was a proposed idea a while back that suggested that raid bosses could reward you with a deck that could be one of the decks in your keep defense mode; I believe it was Cory singled it out and showed interest in the idea. That left me with the impression that keep defense would be PvE, even if that was far from a guarantee.

One thing to note about keep defense is that combos (especially ones that rely on search-the-deck-effects like Reverse Engineering or Ascended Aspirant) are unlikely to be as effective in the hands of the AI as they are in the hands of a player. As hard as it is to make a TCG AI to make reliably good plays, it's even harder when the benefit of the plays is only apparent after a particular sequence of plays. Even if Hex does make the most advanced TCG AI ever created, I doubt that it will shake that weakness.

Umaro
09-24-2013, 06:19 PM
It is a player with his 1 deck having to beat all 3 of your decks. If you go have a listen here http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790 from about 47 - 50 minutes, Cory gives a good overview on this.

Thank you for that. Listening to it now. :)

Stok3d
09-24-2013, 08:43 PM
Kevin Jordan on Keeps (http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360) 1:00.40 - 1:02.10
Cory Jones on Keeps (http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412717902) 0:02.00 - 0:03.20

Defend Your Keep: Hash Out Ideas (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24723)

Sholynyk
09-25-2013, 09:34 AM
http://i1.17173.itc.cn/2009/esports/2009/08/22/20090822231141632.jpg

^ moderately how i would picture being able to create a keep

The way I pictured creating your Keep would be to make your own dungeon. It would allow for a great gold sink if they made each expandable piece you create allowing for hall ways and turns, separate rooms each containing a specific (gold purchasable) bonus and deck to defeat. However should the person decide to go straight for the final deck there is a much shorter path. If the player decides to go that way the "boss" deck contains all of the bonus's from all of the uncleared rooms

Stuff like a necrotic crypt "each turn a 1/1 zombie with slow (can only attack every second turn) appears on the field"
or a Diamond hex vault "each turn the boss champion gains one life"
a wild shrine "defending deck has a 25% chance of one unit gaining +2/+2 at the beginning of their turn.


Some people might say that it would decrease the chances of people playing against each dungeon if they were too hard. however that is where it ties in with the rewards at the end + success ratio's being displayed. The harder it is the bigger the prize. aka if the keep is almost impossible to beat then a person would put up a primal pack as the prize for winning. (if they wanted people to continue trying)

keldrin
09-26-2013, 12:34 AM
I think it needs to allow PVE cards. The reason being, it is a PVE activity. And, if it's PVP card only, then this aspect of PVE would not really fall under the umbrella of PVE being free to play.

Gwaer
09-26-2013, 12:44 AM
You're attacking another players house with defenses at least organized by another player if not actively played by them. That's not exactly a cut and dry PVE situation.

keldrin
09-26-2013, 12:54 AM
You're attacking another players house with defenses at least organized by another player if not actively played by them. That's not exactly a cut and dry PVE situation.
It does kind of walk the line between PVP and PVE, I'll give you that. But if our PVE mercenary champions are running the keep defense, and if you get to use PVE champions or your PVE character to attack, it sounds more PVE in concept than PVP to me.

Gwaer
09-26-2013, 01:14 AM
To my knowledge no one at CZE has ever said mercs will be involved in keep defense in any way. If that turns out to be the case I imagine PVE cards will also be in.

Its also possible that the person setting up the keep can opt to use PVE cards or not and restrict attackers to only PVP whether mercs are involved or not.

keldrin
09-26-2013, 01:34 AM
To my knowledge no one at CZE has ever said mercs will be involved in keep defense in any way. If that turns out to be the case I imagine PVE cards will also be in.

Its also possible that the person setting up the keep can opt to use PVE cards or not and restrict attackers to only PVP whether mercs are involved or not.

Hmm.. maybe I'm remembering something said from a previous thread, stating our mercenaries would live in the keep. I'm not finding anything official on it either.

If the keep can be setup with a rule set, that keeps the attacker on a semi level playing field (like drawing from the same deck resource pool), then PVP or PVE cards would work.
I do prefer the idea that it would be defender selectable, to allow people to choose defense, based on the card resources they have.