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DAkoDread
09-25-2013, 04:04 AM
I've been researching a lot on the cards and how things work and well I tried out my first practice draft here on the site and just wanted to know if this drafted deck was structured well.

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/deck.php?s=29,33,62,95,96,131,280,281,282,283,291&qt=1,3,3,8,8,4,3,4,2,2,2

vulture27
09-25-2013, 05:43 AM
It is a little hard to say without knowing what other cards you drafted, or could have drafted. You have a lot of good cards, but these are my concerns;

Charge Bot is generally a weak card, a 1/1 body will rarely have an impact on the outcome of a game. It appears that you are playing them to make use of the Rocket Rangers as a finisher. If you have no other finisher available this seems ok, but ideally you would have Cloud Titan, Burn to the Ground, or a bomb rare (Menacing Gralk/Te'talca) to fill this role.

Incite Fury is risky. Every troop in your deck has one or two toughness. Sapper's Charge is available to everyone and can wreck your day. With already spoiled efficient removal in ruby, diamond, and blood I think you will frequently get 2 for 1ed against anybody holding removal for your bomb finishers (that you don't have).

Thunderbird is an amazing card. Just remember that in a two shard deck with no dual lands its more likely you will play this on turn 3-4 then on turn 2. This leaves your deck with a glut of three drops and a poor mana curve. Sometimes this is unavoidable in a draft; bad luck happens. Ideally you would have roughly the same number of troops to play on turn 2 as you do on turn 3, and a few more cards in the 4-6 cost range if things drag into the late game.

Edit: Was trying to figure out what champion I would use with this deck. Poca, The Conflagrator (get a 3/1 speed until end of turn) is usually my choice for anything in ruby. I might go with Feather Drifting Downriver (give a troop flight) though because this deck isn't super aggressive unless you get a turn 2 thunderbird (which stops you from using Poca until at least turn 4).

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-25-2013, 08:06 AM
Firstly, I'll just say this deck highlights the big issue with practice drafting - the AI isn't near human level, and with only ~half the set you see cards much more often than you would otherwise (on average a common is likely to be seen in a pod once, between all 3 packs). In a real draft there's no way you'd see 4 Buccaneer's, or 3 Thunderbirds. And even though the Charge Bots will likely be mid to late picks, the pod still wouldn't see 4. :-P And you definitely wouldn't see 3 Burns.

So ultimately, I guess we can just talk about card quality.

Vulture's already said a lot of this, so I apologise if I repeat.

Charge Bot is effectively a 1/1 for 1. The extra charge will only ever really be useful if it enables something that you weren't going to get to otherwise, like actually connecting with a Blaze Elemental or ramping into a Squirrel Titan - more often than not though, the body doesn't justify the charge.

Incite Fury gives a big buff, but keep in mind it doesn't buff defense nor provide evasion or survival, so your opponent killing the troop in any way possible - perhaps by trading with it - will lead to card disadvantage. Only the strongest 'auras' tend to see play in games like this, for this reason.

Rocket Ranger is tricky. If he gets enabled, he's awesome. But I don't think I'd be wanting to run Charge Bots just to do it. Bertram could actually be a justifiable choice for it, though his Worker Bots won't be doing much else in the context of the game. In a draft, Rocket Ranger feels like the kind of card which is great... if you have some decent quality artifacts to go alongside it.

Thought I'd throw it out there, make sure you're using Ruby Aura as a combat trick. That's where it gets the entirety of its value, and why it's the best 'aura' we've seen so far.

In splitting shards, you haven't actually acknowledged that all your ruby cards are single threshold, but Thunderbird from your sapphire card is dual threshold. 7/9 would be a better split.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-25-2013, 09:32 AM
Charge Bot is effectively a 1/1 for 1. The extra charge will only ever really be useful if it enables something that you weren't going to get to otherwise, like actually connecting with a Blaze Elemental or ramping into a Squirrel Titan - more often than not though, the body doesn't justify the charge.


I love charge bot, but only when I know I want to ramp up my champion to synergize with my deck. Putting out a Blaze Elemental or Mammoth Squirrel Titan are great examples.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-25-2013, 06:20 PM
I love charge bot, but only when I know I want to ramp up my champion to synergize with my deck. Putting out a Blaze Elemental or Mammoth Squirrel Titan are great examples.
The champions that straight up make a strong creature like the MST or *maybe* Tetzot's Rock Elemental, who is probably going to be around a 4/4 on average so not even that strong, I might consider it for. But then you've got to consider that you're almost giving yourself card disadvantage (a 1/1 body isn't anything to write home about) for that extra charge.

Ultimately, all the charge does is a) make the curve of your charge powers 1 turn quicker, which may or may not be relevant depending on the charge power. And possibly b) enable an extra use of the charge power, if the game would end with your champion 1 charge short of another activation.

I'm happy to be proven wrong given that we haven't been able to draft properly yet, but I don't have high hopes for Charge Bot being anything but a mid to late pick.

Falaris
09-26-2013, 02:06 AM
I'm fairly certain Charge Bot is going to be an absolute cornerstone to most successful artifact-based limited strategies.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-26-2013, 03:50 AM
I'm fairly certain it won't. Especially when you're only likely to see one, maybe two in an entire draft, and that the best champion for it to work with is in wild. ;-)

Let's look at it this way - Charge Bot's body is pretty much irrelevant. So what you're looking at is, how important is the charge ability?

Well, it'll let you get out a charge power one turn early. In most games it won't enable an extra use of a charge power (except for champs with 2 cost powers, which would see an extra use half the time). So essentially, if using the charge power a turn early leads to a victory you wouldn't have gotten otherwise, then Charge Bot is good in that situation.

I don't see that happening very often.

I came to the same conclusion about Blood Bearer after using it in a constructed deck. Any life I gained from it never proved the difference between winning and losing. Although ironically, in that case he ended up sticking around as he was better in the 1 drop slot than Charge Bot.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-26-2013, 10:16 AM
I'm happy to be proven wrong given that we haven't been able to draft properly yet, but I don't have high hopes for Charge Bot being anything but a mid to late pick.

Charge Bot is a solid mid/late pick if I'm going for a specific champion. The only time I would pick him any earlier would be if I didn't want to commit to a thresh hold right away. I'm personally really interested in consistently utilizing champion charge abilities to win drafts. Dropping an early MST forces your opponent to deal with it or lose. If timed right so it can't be immediately countered, it's a big threat.

vulture27
09-26-2013, 10:24 AM
I'm fairly certain Charge Bot is going to be an absolute cornerstone to most successful artifact-based limited strategies.

Not only am I doubtful of Charge Bot's usefulness in any limited deck, I highly doubt the dwarves/artifact deck will even be viable in draft (excluding cases of absurd luck). Most of the currently revealed artifacts are overpriced and/or worthless. Elimination Specialist and Slaughtergear seem to be the two best reasons to play the deck, but one is uncommon and the other is rare. Pterobot could be awesome, but it isnt going to win the game if you are only playing garbage the first 4-5 turns before it.

Falaris
09-26-2013, 11:10 AM
I'm fairly certain it won't. Especially when you're only likely to see one, maybe two in an entire draft, and that the best champion for it to work with is in wild. ;-)

Let's look at it this way - Charge Bot's body is pretty much irrelevant. So what you're looking at is, how important is the charge ability?

Well, it'll let you get out a charge power one turn early. In most games it won't enable an extra use of a charge power (except for champs with 2 cost powers, which would see an extra use half the time). So essentially, if using the charge power a turn early leads to a victory you wouldn't have gotten otherwise, then Charge Bot is good in that situation.

I don't see that happening very often.

I came to the same conclusion about Blood Bearer after using it in a constructed deck. Any life I gained from it never proved the difference between winning and losing. Although ironically, in that case he ended up sticking around as he was better in the 1 drop slot than Charge Bot.

You're looking at it in the wrong context. The artifact deck will have 2 common creatures (of the cards spoiled) that interact favorably with Charge Bot. Heavy Welding Bot wants a plethora of 1 drops that are either disposable, or at least speed bumps to survive until the mid/late game. While Sapper Charge is obviously superior in that respect, Sapper Charge will be a very early pick by most archetypes. Pterobot gets cheaper based on the early artifacts you play, and to be honest there are not a lot of early artifact plays that can at all interact with the board.

You're underestimating the number of x/1 creatures that will be played in draft. It's not unreasonable to guess that some version of a red rush sligh-type deck will be an upper tier 1 for limited at launch. That type of deck (early game creatures with endgame reach in the way of burn) should be the antithesis to a deck such as the artifact deck (a deck that will be a midgame deck that focuses on board interactions). At least 2-3 of the red decks crucial early turn plays are x/1s.

In addition, the artifact deck in general has shown itself to be focused on just having a critical mass of artifacts in your deck, that are preferably cheap. Research Librarian, Pterobot, Worker Bot factory, Volcannon, and other effects just care about having cheap artifacts. Its part of a cohesive package that, while not powerful individually, together is a synergistic deck.

The deck described is clearly not going to be supported by more than 1, MAYBE 2 drafters per table. Too many of the 'core' cards are uncommon for someone to just move in on it at will. However, with the right openings or early signals I'm definitely confident that there is a strong deck there.

The_Wine_Gnat
09-26-2013, 12:11 PM
Pterobot gets cheaper based on the early artifacts you play, and to be honest there are not a lot of early artifact plays that can at all interact with the board.


I just realized something about Pterobot (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Pterobot/320). It says, "Flight. You pay [1] less to play this troop for each other artifact and/or dwarf you control."

If you champion is a dwarf, does that count, meaning it starts as a cost of 6? Makes a big difference IMO.

Rycajo
09-26-2013, 12:20 PM
I just realized something about Pterobot (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Pterobot/320). It says, "Flight. You pay [1] less to play this troop for each other artifact and/or dwarf you control."

If you champion is a dwarf, does that count, meaning it starts as a cost of 6? Makes a big difference IMO.

That is a great question. I could see it going either way.

arastor
09-26-2013, 12:37 PM
I'm going to guess no. Presumably Champions are not cards and not "controlled." That said, the 8th is just around the corner! Another experiment to be had!

vulture27
09-26-2013, 06:13 PM
I just realized something about Pterobot (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Pterobot/320). It says, "Flight. You pay [1] less to play this troop for each other artifact and/or dwarf you control."

If you champion is a dwarf, does that count, meaning it starts as a cost of 6? Makes a big difference IMO.

I feel like the answer should be no, but like arastor mentioned we have no way to know for sure until alpha.

jaxsonbatemanhex
09-27-2013, 12:07 AM
I'm also on the side of no. If it's like Magic, then when a card refers to a type or subtype without referring to a subtype (ie. card, spell, champion) then it's referring to a permanent of that type, and champions aren't permanents.

Rycajo
09-27-2013, 11:02 AM
I'm going to guess no. Presumably Champions are not cards and not "controlled."

But we do have card representations of the various champions. I imagine that card image is used on the chain when the champion uses a charge power. But since the Pterobot's card does not say "card" in the text, I think the more important distinction here concerns the use of the word "control".

Perhaps we should look at this philosophically.

Is a dwarf truly in control of himself? Or is he a puppet controlled by a larger power? Perhaps the dwarf's actions are not his fault, but merely a product of his environment and upbringing?