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Kami
10-02-2013, 07:06 PM
I have to admit though, there's one thing Cory said from a recent interview that kinda worries me: the way the Keep Defense system will work.

According to the interview, it will be based on your ranking. I see this turning into a potentially problematic loop (i.e. the rich get richer, poor get poorer scenario).



A person has a high rank; therefore, his Keep is more valuable than a lower-ranked person.
Since it is more valuable, more people challenge his Keep.
People challenge his Keep by paying X.
The more his Keep wins, the more his rank increases.
The more his rank increases, the more valuable his Keep becomes.
The more valuable his Keep becomes, the more people challenge.
The more people challenge (and likely fail - you don't become high rank by being a bad player), the more his rank increases.
etc.


Basically, it makes it so people will want to take-on only higher ranked Keeps. And because they keep ranking up every time they successfully defend, it just keeps growing. (They're higher ranked for a reason, likely because they're not bad at the game.)

I might be slightly off because I'm still digesting this information but I get a sense that something doesn't seem quite right here. So basically if you end up being lower-ranked, you'll have a very difficult time catching-up? Unless I'm misunderstanding or missing something? :/

MoikPEI
10-02-2013, 07:14 PM
I'm not sure a high-value hard-target will be consistently favoured by all players. I can see those with powerful raider decks focusing on weaker defenders instead to quickly and consistently get the rewards and reduce the risk of wasting the buy-in. There may be an issue the opposite side of the same coin; that low-ranked players will stay low-ranked by being put on farm by elite groups. I wonder if people will go all-source for their three decks and just be a farm for friends.

We'll need to see more about the rules and balancing.

Aradon
10-02-2013, 07:24 PM
With the power of the collective internet, I'd expect high ranking keeps to be found and defeated, since they become so profitable. In any case, if you're a low-ranked keep, you're low-ranked as a result of bad deck building (or being a fresh keep, which solves itself over time). You're only stuck being a low-ranked keep as long as you don't improve your deck. You can catch up as soon as you get a better keep deck built. Yeah, you can't just dismantle a bad keep, but it shouldn't be hard to find someone willing to beat it if you advertise. Walk into a public or guild channel, say, "Hey, could someone please defeat my keep? It's got X and Y, so a Z deck should do pretty well." It's free money :P

Also relevant, I think you set the amount of gold you want to put in your keep, so if you're confident that you have a strong keep, you can attract players with a large deposit, essentially jumping yourself up to the level of a higher-ranked keep.

I'm more worried about keep net-decking. Finding a combination of strong keep decks is only a matter of time, and then peoplejust copy that. If the multi-deck system proves to be strong enough to defeat a single deck, it could be difficult to overcome. The meta can shift as players counter counters, though, so it'll probably work out in the end.

funktion
10-02-2013, 07:26 PM
What Moik said covers most of it. It turns in a risk vs reward situation for the attacker.

What I wanted to address though was this:


I might be slightly off because I'm still digesting this information but I get a sense that something doesn't seem quite right here. So basically if you end up being lower-ranked, you'll have a very difficult time catching-up? Unless I'm misunderstanding or missing something? :/

There won't necessarily be anything to "catch up to" because at any given point you could just as well change your keep defense deck to be more powerful. There's really not much ramp up to that other than just having access to the cards.

Another way to word it would be that the "high-ranked" keep just currently has a big jackpot. At literally any given moment it could get all taken away and then they're on the same reward level as everyone else. (or at least that's how I take it to be) In a sense, it's easier to fall than it is to rise.

MoikPEI
10-02-2013, 07:26 PM
I'm thinking/hoping you don't put any reward in your keep yourself. Cory's mention of loot tables based on ranking make me thing it's entirely game-funded.

dogmod
10-02-2013, 07:31 PM
You guys are conflating Keep defense and Raid decks. Raid decks will have ranking. The only ranking for Keeps will be the amount of gold that will go to the winner. And that happens only once and then the keep is reset.

Nothing to see here ;o

Aradon
10-02-2013, 07:35 PM
What are raid decks? This is the first I've heard of any decks being made public for ranking.

MoikPEI
10-02-2013, 07:40 PM
@dogmod
What Kami summarized matches my understanding of what was said by Cory in an interview from yesterday.
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=27806
Keep Defenses ranked for loot tables.

jetah
10-02-2013, 07:59 PM
You guys are conflating Keep defense and Raid decks. Raid decks will have ranking. The only ranking for Keeps will be the amount of gold that will go to the winner. And that happens only once and then the keep is reset.

Nothing to see here ;o

In the video Cory did speak about Keeps having rankings. http://youtu.be/nUK4FDtKALg?t=10m (if the link doesnt drop you at 10m just hit that time).

updated to the correct video and time!!!

dogmod
10-02-2013, 08:05 PM
Here is my understanding and I am sure whenever shadowelf wakes up from his 40 minutes of sleep a night between posting links he can back it up.

Keep defense:

You choose your 3 decks and place a starting bounty on your keep and choose the cost to assault it. I.e. putting 1000 gold into the coffers and charging people 100 gold to assault it. Of that 100 gold that people pay to assault it a certain % will go into the keep coffers, a certain % to the keep creator, and a certain % will be sinked out of the game.

As people try to assault your keep and fail the coffers will increase and if they increase enough then people will "start talking about it on forums and coming up with ways to defeat it." Once someone has defeated it and this is a singular person they will take all of the gold out of the coffers and then the keep will be taken offline until the person who created it recreates it and starts the process all over again. The coffers are not reset to their previous level, there is no loot table, and there is no ranking beyond how much gold is in the coffers which is initially placed their by the keeps creator.

When he is talking about ranking he is talking about ranking people who will run a raid deck as a boss. They will have a ranking based on their performance running the raid deck. This is not a feature expected at launch. As they run raid decks if they perform well they will increase their ranking and the amount of loot that people will earn from beating them will increase based on this ranking. Eventually if their ranking is high enough people may pay them money so that they can run the raid against them to have a chance at a souped up raid loot table. (this system is going to be open to a great deal of abuse so we will see how they go about it, again not at launch) I imagine after the person who is the raid deck boss loses a match that their ranking will go down but won't be reset entirely. There will likely not be much problems with people only wanting to go against "high ranked" people as one man can only run so many raids and also the fact that their ranking will decrease with losses resulting in an equillibrium.

MoikPEI
10-02-2013, 08:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUK4FDtKALg#t=10m
There's the Keep Defense System time.
It matches what Dogmod is saying.

jetah
10-02-2013, 08:19 PM
But it could be possible to rank Keeps. There could be a Keep interface that would allow us to browse the Keeps.. After attacking and winning or losing we could give (thumbs up/star/whatever).

I'd like to see the Keep UI also showcase some lower to mid tier Keeps too. It could have a recently played (and thus the player lost) list too.

dogmod
10-02-2013, 08:30 PM
But it could be possible to rank Keeps. There could be a Keep interface that would allow us to browse the Keeps.. After attacking and winning or losing we could give (thumbs up/star/whatever).

I'd like to see the Keep UI also showcase some lower to mid tier Keeps too. It could have a recently played (and thus the player lost) list too.

If you beat a keep though it goes offline as the coffers will be empty so a rating system would be somewhat irrelevant beyond the coffers enlarging.

Some interesting ideas regarding keep defense are in my ideas document:

Keep Relics

Attacking keeps, building nefarious keeps to stump your friends and foes, engaging in Guild keep wars, and winning fat l00ts for defeating an especially difficult and treasureful keep. AMAZING. One the features announced during the kickstarter that people were most excited about was the Keep Defense option. What this idea does is take that excitement and fun gameplay to another level by adding more interactivity, fun chaseyness, and making it so that you have more of a sense of playing against other players/the field while playing Keep Defense. (which while awesome may feel like a bit more of a solitary act as opposed to interactive puzzle making/solving)

.... further on the document

A ranking system like what you suggest was brought up for a User Created Challenge idea also on the ideas document

User Created Challenges

Basically, everyone loves the challenge mode from Duel of the Planeswalker and other assorted card game single players. They are quick burst intellectual challenges that after you have finished you have a sense of accomplishment.

I imagine you have planned something like this and honestly I imagine you will have more than a few dungeons with elements just like this (Sphinx anyone?)

The real kicker in this idea is the creation of these challenges by your users. Providing the tools for users to set up challenges, put them into a challenge “marketplace” and let other users play them. Much like keep defense there can be prizes and it can act as a gold sink out of the market in the long run.

....Further on the document.

jetah
10-04-2013, 01:53 AM
If you beat a keep though it goes offline as the coffers will be empty so a rating system would be somewhat irrelevant beyond the coffers enlarging.

Not really. I could give a feedback or other notification to the creator of said deck/keep (via the keep UI) and tell them they did a great job. This could get more people to their keep as their feedback/rank increases by getting them to the top faster, even if the coffers are low.

Neverwinter, Star Trek Online has player created quest. You cangive feedback and you can rate (with up to 5 stars).