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kormai
10-07-2013, 05:34 AM
I have been searching around a little (and hearing around) and after some calculations i noticed that by merging slacker backer accounts you have a huge disadvantage. Let me explain.
The first slacker backer account give you :
HEX MMO TCG alpha invite (Fall 2013) and beta invite as a special thank you for contributing .
1 Starter Deck (in addition to your free Starter Deck at account creation)
25 Set 1 Booster Packs
2 months of VIP Program (1 pack per week, access to an exclusive tournament and deck tools)
Princess Cory Promo Card
Chest’O HEX Promo Card
Digital Art Book “The Art of HEX” in PDF format
Which is kinda nice.
However when you merge a second slacker backer account the bonus diminishes fast.
This is what the second merged slacker backer account would give you :
1 Starter Deck (in addition to your free Starter Deck at account creation)
25 Set 1 Booster Packs
Princess Cory Promo Card
Chest’O HEX Promo Card

The digital art book well you already have it, the vip program is just gone (which means 8 less boosters and 2 less tournaments because you merged).And alpha, well you are already in alpha.

However if you make 2 account's (a main and a backup) and transfer the boosters to your main the second account would actually give
1 Starter Deck (in addition to your free Starter Deck at account creation)
25 Set 1 Booster Packs
Princess Cory Promo Card
Chest’O HEX Promo Card
+8 boosters from ViP
+2 free tournaments on second account with which you can potentially win more stuff.

So just watching this it would be intresting to just keep the accounts seperate. But things can get even more intresting.
I'm than thinking off buying a 3rd slacker backer account, which in this case wouldnt be smart.
It would give me if merged :
1 Starter Deck (in addition to your free Starter Deck at account creation)
25 Set 1 Booster Packs
Princess Cory Promo Card
Chest’O HEX Promo Card
Than again if i would invest that 50 dollar instead in vip access (which is a total of 12 month vip over the 2 account) i would recieve:
12 extra tournaments (in which you might be able to win more prices)
12 months vip in total means 52 booster packs you are sure to have so 27 more than the third slacker backer account merge. (If i remember correctly the tournament was once a month for ViP and was free)
yes you would lose Princess Cory Promo Card and Chest’O HEX Promo Card but they wont be worth anything the first 5 years, and after that they might not even be worth alot.
And a starter deck compared to 27 booster packs is alot
And you would still have 2 dollar left.
Also since its split over 2 accounts that means you have 6 months, meaning that 2 months on both will be of the next set that is coming out which will be 100% surely worth alot more than the first set since a huge ammount off first set boosters are given out to slacker backers and kickstarters.To be somewhat more accurate that mean 16 of the second set booster packs.

Now someone who merged those 3 slacker backer account has
HEX MMO TCG alpha invite (Fall 2013) and beta invite as a special thank you for contributing .
3 Starter Deck (in addition to your free Starter Deck at account creation)
75 Set 1 Booster Packs
2 months of VIP Program (1 pack per week, access to an exclusive tournament and deck tools)
3 Princess Cory Promo Card
3 Chest’O HEX Promo Card
Digital Art Book “The Art of HEX” in PDF format
Whyle someone who made 2 slacker backer accounts seperate and used the money of the third has
HEX MMO TCG alpha invite (Fall 2013) and beta invite as a special thank you for contributing .
2 Starter Deck (in addition to your free Starter Deck at account creation)
86 Set 1 Booster Packs
16 set 2 booster packs (which will be worth more than the first set due to the huge ammount that set 1 has been given to kickstarters etc)
(total 102 booster packs)
14 months of VIP Program (1 pack per week, access to an exclusive tournament and deck tools)(divided over 2 account)
2 Princess Cory Promo Card
2 Chest’O HEX Promo Card
Digital Art Book “The Art of HEX” in PDF format
And you still got 2 dollar left

So i would advice you to think carefully about what appraoch you should take.
But with no additional bonusses for merging i would suggest to try and keep em seperate and transfer the boosters to your main account

kormai
10-07-2013, 05:39 AM
mistake i just though, the once that merged also got 8 boosters extra making it 83 versus 102 boosters

keroko
10-07-2013, 05:40 AM
jesus your spoiled... with the upmost respect...

Shadowelf
10-07-2013, 05:42 AM
Well about multiple accounts and vip ;

We've also received a lot of questions from backers worried that players will game the system, opening multiple accounts to stack VIP Program booster packs. This program is intended to be one-per-player as a cool way to let our community access some packs at a discount and get some sweet bonus stuff. But, we do understand that there will always be a small percentage of players who are always looking to game the system. Members on our team have dealt with this within digital TCGs for years, tracking this specific type of activity. So, we're aware of this issue and have team members, as well as powerful analytical tools to determine when this is occurring.

(update #7 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=9)

kormai
10-07-2013, 05:44 AM
Well about multiple accounts and vip ;

We've also received a lot of questions from backers worried that players will game the system, opening multiple accounts to stack VIP Program booster packs. This program is intended to be one-per-player as a cool way to let our community access some packs at a discount and get some sweet bonus stuff. But, we do understand that there will always be a small percentage of players who are always looking to game the system. Members on our team have dealt with this within digital TCGs for years, tracking this specific type of activity. So, we're aware of this issue and have team members, as well as powerful analytical tools to determine when this is occurring.

(update #7 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=9)

Aslong as you pay you should get what you payed for, meaning that if someone wants to pay for multiple accounts its the same as different people paying for there accounts so

jetah
10-07-2013, 05:45 AM
they've also said that they will not allow us to have multiple VIP accounts for the purpose of transferring booster/cards to a main account.

Berkhtar
10-07-2013, 05:48 AM
Well about multiple accounts and vip ;

We've also received a lot of questions from backers worried that players will game the system, opening multiple accounts to stack VIP Program booster packs. This program is intended to be one-per-player as a cool way to let our community access some packs at a discount and get some sweet bonus stuff. But, we do understand that there will always be a small percentage of players who are always looking to game the system. Members on our team have dealt with this within digital TCGs for years, tracking this specific type of activity. So, we're aware of this issue and have team members, as well as powerful analytical tools to determine when this is occurring.

(update #7 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=9)

At least in Europe it will be hard to take any legal actions against someone who has legally bought a VIP-programm. Neither having 2 accounts is forbidden nor trading is forbidden.

But we love our rights in Europe... so could be different in the States.

I am sure Crypto is able to track this special behaviour, but as soon as they have sold something... they have to deliver, and trading is part of this game (TRADING CG).

Shadowelf
10-07-2013, 05:56 AM
They are doing this because, at launch account creation will be free; so people could game the system by opening 10 accounts, buying 10 vips and receive 80 boosters for half the price

Another thing to note is that although a cc isn't required to create an account, you will need one to make purchases for that account. So if you intend to buy multiple vips, you will possibly need multiple ccs




Each account in HEX requires a unique credit card to make purchases (there will also be other payment options, but they are still being explored). We won’t be able to stop you from opening multiple accounts with different cc’s. But our desire is to make the best and most stable environment possible. The requirement for unique cc’s will help control potential abuses of our community and content.



You won't need a credit card to create an account, just to make purchases on the account (there will also be other payment options, but they are still being explored).

jetah
10-07-2013, 05:58 AM
At least in Europe it will be hard to take any legal actions against someone who has legally bought a VIP-programm. Neither having 2 accounts is forbidden nor trading is forbidden.

But we love our rights in Europe... so could be different in the States.

I am sure Crypto is able to track this special behaviour, but as soon as they have sold something... they have to deliver, and trading is part of this game (TRADING CG).

But it doesn't matter where you are in the world, if CZE bans accounts you no longer have access to those accounts.

keroko
10-07-2013, 06:02 AM
scammed boosters have lower loot luck, I checked.

kormai
10-07-2013, 06:05 AM
So let me get this straight , i have 2 accounts (1 for me and 1 for my son) they will both likely have ViP (mine for sure and for my son if he really likes it). We will now and than trade some cards, if he has something i really want or if i have something he really wants (its my son). So i'm gonna get banned for that? (and this is the truth, message above was for people who buy like 5 slacker backer accounts).
We have 2 PC's behind a router so outgoing IP is the same, he is 12 years old so yes i'm using my mastercard.
And now i hear this game will ban us for that, now that sounds cheap.
Here is the proof and i posted them a long time ago
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25664
see my posts on pages 61, 64 and 65

Lunarath
10-07-2013, 06:05 AM
But it doesn't matter where you are in the world, if CZE bans accounts you no longer have access to those accounts.

^ This

You will probably be agreeing to terms, of which they can ban your account without any reason or further notice. Meaning they don't have to take any legal actions... Just ban the account

Lunarath
10-07-2013, 06:07 AM
So let me get this straight , i have 2 accounts (1 for me and 1 for my son) they will both likely have ViP (mine for sure and for my son if he really likes it). We will now and than trade some cards, if he has something i really want or if i have something he really wants (its my son). So i'm gonna get banned for that? (and this is the truth, message above was for people who buy like 5 slacker backer accounts).
We have 2 PC's behind a router so outgoing IP is the same, he is 12 years old so yes i'm using my mastercard.
And now i hear this game will ban us for that, now that sounds cheap.
Here is the proof and i posted them a long time ago
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25664
see my posts on pages 61, 64 and 65

The difference is if an account is never or rarely actually played, but still have VIP. Then trading all or best cards from that pack to another account, the same account every week.

jetah
10-07-2013, 06:14 AM
So let me get this straight , i have 2 accounts (1 for me and 1 for my son) they will both likely have ViP (mine for sure and for my son if he really likes it). We will now and than trade some cards, if he has something i really want or if i have something he really wants (its my son). So i'm gonna get banned for that? (and this is the truth, message above was for people who buy like 5 slacker backer accounts).
We have 2 PC's behind a router so outgoing IP is the same, he is 12 years old so yes i'm using my mastercard.
And now i hear this game will ban us for that, now that sounds cheap.
Here is the proof and i posted them a long time ago
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25664
see my posts on pages 61, 64 and 65

There is the possibility you'll need a 2nd CC for the other account. We're talking about people who are using 2 or more accounts to transfer cards/boosters to a main account.

kormai
10-07-2013, 06:17 AM
There is the possibility you'll need a 2nd CC for the other account. We're talking about people who are using 2 or more accounts to transfer cards/boosters to a main account.

I dont have a second CC, and would be kind of stupid to try and ask a second for just one game.

Svenn
10-07-2013, 06:17 AM
So let me get this straight , i have 2 accounts (1 for me and 1 for my son) they will both likely have ViP (mine for sure and for my son if he really likes it). We will now and than trade some cards, if he has something i really want or if i have something he really wants (its my son). So i'm gonna get banned for that? (and this is the truth, message above was for people who buy like 5 slacker backer accounts).
We have 2 PC's behind a router so outgoing IP is the same, he is 12 years old so yes i'm using my mastercard.
And now i hear this game will ban us for that, now that sounds cheap.
Here is the proof and i posted them a long time ago
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25664
see my posts on pages 61, 64 and 65
There are 2 ways you can do this... The first is to use different credit cards on each account. The second, and probably better considering your son is only 12, is to only tie a credit card to YOUR account and you buy him anything he wants and trade it to him. As far as I understand it, that is fine.

I'm not sure the rules on 2 VIP accounts in the same household for different players though. I'd be curious about that, as my girlfriend will also be playing.

Berkhtar
10-07-2013, 06:33 AM
But it doesn't matter where you are in the world, if CZE bans accounts you no longer have access to those accounts.

Banning for which reason? Is there anything clearly indicated when you buy a SB? There is nothing... they are not clear, hence they won't have any base for banning etc.

Especially if considering the fact that SC will disappear soon, I do not think that they will risk banning paying people because of their own incapability.

As soon as they have led a solid legal foundation that this is not allowed (there is non at the moment) they can do whatever they want, but if they try to ban players who bought SBs before Crypto made a clear statement (a statement you can see without having to search through dozens of Forum pages) this will cause lots of trouble. If they ban a 2nd account of a pro gamer they will lose this gamer => lose money, more money they lose this way with 2 accounts.

The VIP program is great, but without stating any terms... Crypto should avoid using words like banning etc.

At the moment you pledge / buy without agreeing any terms.. so there is only: You bought this => you have owned a right to use this. You buy VIP => you have to get VIP, you buy VIP twice => you get it twice.

Imho they did not think carefully enough about this program, or they did and did not inform the community about all details

Berkhtar
10-07-2013, 06:36 AM
^ This

You will probably be agreeing to terms, of which they can ban your account without any reason or further notice. Meaning they don't have to take any legal actions... Just ban the account

You bought SCs before you agreed any terms. This is invalid... European court of justice decided this when Blizzard forgot to indicate that D3 needs an Inet connection... not possible in the EU anymore... Terms have to be made clear before you buy something (in Europe).

keroko
10-07-2013, 06:45 AM
Let me tell you a quick secret... Once you click that eula set you didn't read you missed the part where it said they can ban your account for any reason they desire.

So if you devise some way to abuse the spirit of the game, you get banned. You actions can be spun as directly disruptive to the gaming community on the case of deliberate abuse of VIP. You diminish the value of all packs. That's like spitting on our collective cargo load.

This isn't Snowden loving land of the do whatever the hell you want in abuse of a system I'm afraid.

The eula needs to be good, forum ones need fleshed out too.

There is an agressive social element that must be defended against.

And it might not be a ban, it might be an indefinite hold. So many words, there's folk who get paid to spin them up and tear them down. Amazing world we live in.

Kami
10-07-2013, 06:47 AM
You bought SCs before you agreed any terms. This is invalid... European court of justice decided this when Blizzard forgot to indicate that D3 needs an Inet connection... not possible in the EU anymore... Terms have to be made clear before you buy something (in Europe).

The difference being that Blizzard has a European HQ in France. CZE is only in the US.

kormai
10-07-2013, 06:48 AM
Let me tell you a quick secret... Once you click that eula set you didn't read you missed the part where it said they can ban your account for any reason they desire.

So if you devise some way to abuse the spirit of the game, you get banned.

This isn't Snowden loving land of the do whatever the hell you want in abuse of a system I'm afraid.

True but they wont ban if they cant back it up, because that would be extremely bad advertising.
Dont get me wrong i aint gonna use what i posted but i wanted to let people see how unfair multiple slacker backer that are merged are.
The more slacker backer's you buy the less you are getting for your money. This is extremely unfair

Kami
10-07-2013, 06:50 AM
True but they wont ban if they cant back it up, because that would be extremely bad advertising.
Dont get me wrong i aint gonna use what i posted but i wanted to let people see how unfair multiple slacker backer that are merged are.
The more slacker backer's you buy the less you are getting for your money. This is extremely unfair

Amusingly, people are merging tiers that are worth $250+. I don't see anything unfair about losing some of the value since it is entirely optional.

Nobody is forcing anyone to merge. It's important to note that.

Berkhtar
10-07-2013, 06:52 AM
The difference being that Blizzard has a European HQ in France. CZE is only in the US.

Not true they are even able to claim Samsung or whoever they want. This is normal. If you sell something within Europe, you are bound to their laws.

Think in the USA it is the same.

keroko
10-07-2013, 06:53 AM
Advertising has nothing to do with a misbehaving single user, that I assure you.

I for one would be delighted to hear about a company that took protection of its ecosystem seriously and actively hampered those that would desecrate that for whatever purpose.

kormai
10-07-2013, 06:54 AM
Amusingly, people are merging tiers that are worth $250+. I don't see anything unfair about losing some of the value since it is entirely optional.

Nobody is forcing anyone to merge. It's important to note that.
I never stated that you are forced to merge.
But i am stating that the more slacker backers you buy and merge the less value it has for you (after some time 90% of the boosters will be useless since you already have those commons and uncommons to much.)

Berkhtar
10-07-2013, 06:57 AM
Let me tell you a quick secret... Once you click that eula set you didn't read you missed the part where it said they can ban your account for any reason they desire.


At the moment there is no such EULA when you back SB. Just try... you are forwared to Paypal and that's it. You do not agree anything at the moment, and that is the mistake Crypto makes / made.

As soon as you play Hex you certainly agree their terms, but this happens after sale... and that is the problem, and exactly this no longer allowed within the EU.

When you sell something you clearly have to state: The following terms are bound to the contract... this is missing here.

Nowhere in the world you can say: Ah... dude... I forgot to mention.. but I have some addtions to our contract.

Kami
10-07-2013, 06:59 AM
At the moment there is no such EULA when you back SB. Just try... you are forwared to Paypal and that's it. You do not agree anything at the moment, and that is the mistake Crypto makes / made.

As soon as you play Hex you certainly agree their terms, but this happens after sale... and that is the problem, and exactly this no longer allowed within the EU.

When you sell something you clearly have to state: The following terms are bound to the contract... this is missing here.

Nowhere in the world you can say: Ah... dude... I forgot to mention.. but I have some addtions to our contract.

You also have to realize you are not BUYING the game by PLEDGING/DONATING. This is not a pre-order/pre-purchase!

The reality is that this is closer to you being a venture capitalist and if the project is successful, you get a reward.


Not true they are even able to claim Samsung or whoever they want. This is normal. If you sell something within Europe, you are bound to their laws.

Think in the USA it is the same.

Um... you realize that Samsung has an HQ in Europe as well right? Same as Microsoft and every other company the EU government has gone after.

As far as I'm aware, they have not targeted any company without a base in Europe.

Shadowelf
10-07-2013, 07:01 AM
So let me get this straight , i have 2 accounts (1 for me and 1 for my son) they will both likely have ViP (mine for sure and for my son if he really likes it). We will now and than trade some cards, if he has something i really want or if i have something he really wants (its my son). So i'm gonna get banned for that? (and this is the truth, message above was for people who buy like 5 slacker backer accounts).
We have 2 PC's behind a router so outgoing IP is the same, he is 12 years old so yes i'm using my mastercard.
And now i hear this game will ban us for that, now that sounds cheap.
Here is the proof and i posted them a long time ago
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25664
see my posts on pages 61, 64 and 65

This is somewhat relevant;


Hey Kyle, I plan to have my daughter play with her own account, being as I would control funds to the account, would there be for sure some alternate way to pay other than my one CC that I have? I plan to fund both accounts, but as she is a minor, it would be me spending the money. Is paypal being considered as an option as well?

Also ,i do plan on backing her at King Tier if I can, and keeping the accounts separate, so that we can play together, is there a way other than me going out and getting another CC that we can do this?


We're working on alternate payment methods, but it is a bit soon to set those expectations with you until we have things locked in.

Glad you'll be playing with your daughter, I'll be playing with mine as well :-)

I don't know what their methods of tracking will be but i doubt you will be banned in the case you are decribing

keroko
10-07-2013, 07:01 AM
You did not make a purchase, you made a good faith donation which will be exchanged for the service CZE provides you by furnishing you with various digital resources.

Access to those resources past your receipt of them will have additional terms. You make keep your digital items if you do not agree to them.

That's a reasonable interpretation of the intent isn't it? Really dunno.

Bloody PayPal charge backs....

Consideration of EULAs in international space a big ol pain, but you'd need to engage the entity itself in US court would you not....

Who studies international tort law?

knightofeffect
10-07-2013, 07:14 AM
This is somewhat relevant;





I don't know what their methods of tracking will be but i doubt you will be banned in the case you are decribing


Yea, I think it's important to have faith and understand that Crypto will not be actively looking to disenfranchise people who are simply trying to play the game with friends and family. Is there a chance that someone gets suspended/banned without doing something nefarious? Yea, but it is likely a very small chance and that happens in all online games.

They have said that their algorithms will be checking for accounts that are obviously feeder accounts, IE accounts that are only logged into when they are feeding cards/packs to other accounts. I'm sure its much more complicated than that, but you get the idea. Either way, I'm sure there will be a review to reverse any incorrect bans.

There will be constant evolution of checks and balances to provide legitimate "alternate methods" to those who need them.

Berkhtar
10-07-2013, 07:15 AM
You also have to realize you are not BUYING the game by PLEDGING/DONATING. This is not a pre-order/pre-purchase!

The reality is that this is closer to you being a venture capitalist and if the project is successful, you get a reward.

True for Kickstarter, but not for SB. The project is succesfully funded. I am quite sure that the laws for this kind of financing are quite unclear... but this is closer to a sale / purchase than anything else.




Um... you realize that Samsung has an HQ in Europe as well right? Same as Microsoft and every other company the EU government has gone after.

As far as I'm aware, they have not targeted any company without a base in Europe.

Unless you tell me MS is any European company (it is not, even if it has some subsidiaries within the EU), this will show the opposite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case

But anyway: I do not think they will punish their backers, they will certainly find a way to avoid VIP-stacking... but not on the back of their backers. As soon as EULA is clearly stated, this problem will be solved. If they start banning simply based on the fact that 2 persons use the same router and have 2 VIP programs.. great, consider your image ruined for the future.

We live in a world everybody gets instant knowledge of every possible mistake... and ban-waves are critical if not handled correctly.

Kami
10-07-2013, 07:20 AM
True for Kickstarter, but not for SB. The project is succesfully funded. I am quite sure that the laws for this kind of financing are quite unclear... but this is closer to a sale / purchase than anything else.

You do realize the link itself is: http://hextcg.com/donate/ (http://hextcg.com/donate/)



Unless you tell me MS is any European company (it is not, even if it has some subsidiaries within the EU), this will show the opposite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case

They don't have to be a European company. They just need to have a base in Europe - which they do. In order to operate a company out of a country they have a base in, they must conform to the corporate laws that are there. In Microsoft's case, they were culpable in Europe because they were operating within it; not just exporting their goods to Europe.

Xenavire
10-07-2013, 08:13 AM
This is completely relevant in my household too. We have 4 people signed up to play Hex, and we pledged via pay pal (all using the same account.)

We all plan to use our seperate accounts, and use the vip program. First off, we shouldn't be punished for living in the same house and sharing the same hobbies. Secondly, if we could pledge multiple times with the same account, we should be able to do the same with vip. Now if we are forced to use seperate payment methods, fine, but we should have access to paypal - if not, again, we are being punished for something we can't control.


So I am hoping their analytics can tell which accounts are dummies, and that they keep paypal as a regular payment method.

Showsni
10-07-2013, 08:14 AM
It's very clearly a "Donate" button on the Slacker Backer page, and not a "Buy" button. Also, as I recall, the blurb your have to agree to when donating on Hex's page is the same blurb that shows up on Kickstarter. So, you really haven't bought anything here, and Cryptozoic aren't bound by the laws you're mentioning.

Leingod
10-07-2013, 08:22 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense to simply extend the VIP enrollment time by 2 months for each VIP account? That's really the only item for SBs that is questionable as far as stacking goes, but if they have deemed SB is worth 2 months, why not just add the 2 months from each SB together if you are merging?

Nthanel
10-07-2013, 08:28 AM
Mani love these arguments. It shows the ways people are trying to game the system any the defend them selves with silly arguments. What he really does is encourage them to just discontinue the VIP program as soon as they feel it's being abused, thus ruining it for every one. So much greed about a game that's not even out yet.

Gulbech
10-07-2013, 08:35 AM
Edit: didnt see the other answers.

You are not allowed to have more then one VIP program for each person, mot sure how hard they will be on this the first month or two, but long term i am pretty sure they come down hard on people with several accounts and vip programs.

Xenavire
10-07-2013, 08:36 AM
Mani love these arguments. It shows the ways people are trying to game the system any the defend them selves with silly arguments. What he really does is encourage them to just discontinue the VIP program as soon as they feel it's being abused, thus ruining it for every one. So much greed about a game that's not even out yet.

Man, I love these comments. It shows that people are insensitive to the problems people have the minute someone makes a stupid comment that is considered to be 'an attempt to game the system'.

While the OP is fairly unrelated, multiple vip's are an issue for any players living together - people who have no intent to try and game the system.

keroko
10-07-2013, 08:41 AM
EULAs gotta be perfect. Pls those responsible members here read and try to exploit in mind with intent to report your perceived 'work arounds' of CZE intent... We are not lawyers (i speak for myself only) but we can find holes in logics that might be helpful to CZE.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdR7hCjQNwA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Svenn
10-07-2013, 08:42 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense to simply extend the VIP enrollment time by 2 months for each VIP account? That's really the only item for SBs that is questionable as far as stacking goes, but if they have deemed SB is worth 2 months, why not just add the 2 months from each SB together if you are merging?

That's what they said was happening with Kickstarter accounts... so I don't see why that wouldn't already be happening with Slacker Backers.

Maphalux
10-07-2013, 08:49 AM
I don't think people who live together have anything to worry about, Xen. What they are going to be looking for is accounts that log on only to pass VIP packs to another account with a VIP sub and then disconnect until the next transfer. If you don't have a dummy account doing this, you would literally have nothing to worry about.

Xenavire
10-07-2013, 09:05 AM
I don't think people who live together have anything to worry about, Xen. What they are going to be looking for is accounts that log on only to pass VIP packs to another account with a VIP sub and then disconnect until the next transfer. If you don't have a dummy account doing this, you would literally have nothing to worry about.

And if my friends pay for a vip month, then stop playing after a week for whatever reason, and give me the boosters to draft etc? (Not that I actually see that happening, but its an example.)

Would all four of accounts be banned because only one of us was being active for a couple of weeks? (I could see this happening in weeks leading up to a new set etc, as we have similar experiences with WoW etc. So it isn't out of the question.)

keroko
10-07-2013, 09:11 AM
A while back some of us rolled around the multi-vip thing.

Imagine a scenario where a player wants to RP as an entire village of humans or a burrowden of shin'hare...

They say they 'need' 20x accounts, and might even flit between them to RP multi box or just to be on a particular one.

Should such a person be able to have 20x actively ticking VIP subs?

Maphalux
10-07-2013, 09:13 AM
Well I'm not about to revive this discussion because, to be quite frank, there is no excuse for how VIP packs keep finding their way from one account to another, also with a VIP subscription, without abuse being involved. Any excuse given for that is nothing more than spin.

It will be more than obvious if an account is a dummy account just feeding VIP packs, month after month, to another account. And that looks quite different from the scenario you just described where someone just decides to quit and gives all their remaining stuff to you. Of course, if that person keeps their VIP after and then continues to pay for packs to give to you, that is going to raise eyebrows, and rightfully so.

If you aren't doing something wrong, you won't get in trouble. If you are, and you get caught, you have nobody to blame but yourself and all the excuses in the world won't help you.

keroko
10-07-2013, 09:13 AM
I say yes, if and only if they hook up 20x unique cc, not 20x PayPal emails tied to the same single pay source or with obfuscated funds.

I would, personally, like to see what we'd get for a fiddy a month sub.

Turtlewing
10-07-2013, 09:18 AM
And if my friends pay for a vip month, then stop playing after a week for whatever reason, and give me the boosters to draft etc? (Not that I actually see that happening, but its an example.)

Would all four of accounts be banned because only one of us was being active for a couple of weeks? (I could see this happening in weeks leading up to a new set etc, as we have similar experiences with WoW etc. So it isn't out of the question.)

An active account that goes inactive and starts behaving like farm bot looks like a hacked account. They'd probably follow their procedure for dealing with hacked accounts (whatever that is) if you manage to trip their detection.

The obvious solution would be to lock the account (disable trades and stop selling VIP to it) until the owner takes steps to get it unlocked (calling customer service and jumping through whatever "prove it's really you" hoops the have in place).

They may also choose to stop selling VIP to accounts that are active but look like they're breaking the "one per person" rule for VIP.

Bans are unlikely to happen unless the account is obviously a farm account.


On a different tack:
Are they not combining VIP's for Slacker backer? For kickstarters the merge rule is your merged VIP memberships extend the duration of your free ride (so 2x 3 moths of VIP becomes 6 months of one VIP membership). AT least that's what I recall from the announcement back when they first settled the multiple KS issue.

Xenavire
10-07-2013, 09:28 AM
Well, the idea is not that they keep subbing after they stop playing (especially if they plan to come back after a new set etc) but that they give what packs they get of an existing sub. It wouldn't look like a hacked account (or it shouldn't.)

I doubt they would actually give me their packs, but its just an idea.

I just think there needs to be a clear set of rules around the vip program before they allow people to 'sub'. When people can see those rules, then if they break those rules they get punished. (And the free vip might be exempt, due to all the merging mayhem.)

Turtlewing
10-07-2013, 10:09 AM
Well, the idea is not that they keep subbing after they stop playing (especially if they plan to come back after a new set etc) but that they give what packs they get of an existing sub. It wouldn't look like a hacked account (or it shouldn't.)

I doubt they would actually give me their packs, but its just an idea.

I just think there needs to be a clear set of rules around the vip program before they allow people to 'sub'. When people can see those rules, then if they break those rules they get punished. (And the free vip might be exempt, due to all the merging mayhem.)

The "One VIP sub per person" is a pretty clear and simple rule.

If one account gives its VIP packs to another on a regular basis and doesn't receive anything in return they're braking the rule and should expect to get black listed from VIP or possibly banned.

If an account changes behavior suddenly and that new behavior includes a one-way transfer of value to another account, that may look like a hacked account and may trigger anti-hacking measures such as having trading disabled until the owner sorts things out with CZE.

One off behavior like, gifting one week's VIP pack to a friend but not making a habit of it will probably not even show up on their "radar". Neither should trades where you get something in return, even if you make a habit of trading away your VIP packs.

And of coarse, if you're actually playing the game (engaging in PvP and/or PvE), you'll probably get a lot more slack than if your account logs on makes some trades and the logs off. And if you and your friend have different iP addresses you'll again look less suspicious.

The easiest way to think about it is: If all I had to go on were the server logs would this behavior look like one person who has two accounts?

Miwa
10-07-2013, 10:21 AM
So let me get this straight , i have 2 accounts (1 for me and 1 for my son) they will both likely have ViP (mine for sure and for my son if he really likes it). We will now and than trade some cards, if he has something i really want or if i have something he really wants (its my son). So i'm gonna get banned for that? (and this is the truth, message above was for people who buy like 5 slacker backer accounts).
If both accounts are being actively used, likely no problems. Second account rarely played? Depends how much they crank up the analytics. VIP program is meant for accounts that are actually used. Their restrictions are all pretty much to prevent gaming the system to get cheap boosters. Signing up non-playing family members would count as gaming the system.

kormai
10-07-2013, 10:48 AM
If both accounts are being actively used, likely no problems. Second account rarely played? Depends how much they crank up the analytics. VIP program is meant for accounts that are actually used. Their restrictions are all pretty much to prevent gaming the system to get cheap boosters. Signing up non-playing family members would count as gaming the system.

Then what is being active, he's a 12 year old kid that play different games at the moment. Then on the PS3, then on the PC (like Lol, GTA5 etc).
Is 2 games a week active? Is a game or 2 every week active? Where will you draw the line?

Miwa
10-07-2013, 10:52 AM
I never stated that you are forced to merge.
But i am stating that the more slacker backers you buy and merge the less value it has for you (after some time 90% of the boosters will be useless since you already have those commons and uncommons to much.)

They never intended any one person to buy more than 1 of anything. If they had it to do all over again, I'm sure they would ban multiple accounts from the start.

Liokae
10-07-2013, 10:53 AM
Honestly, requests for super-precise, extensive, covers-all-scenario rules reads more like "I wonder what I'll be able to get away with" rather than "I just want to make sure nobody abuses it!".

Miwa
10-07-2013, 10:55 AM
Then what is being active, he's a 12 year old kid that play different games at the moment. Then on the PS3, then on the PC (like Lol, GTA5 etc).
Is 2 games a week active? Is a game or 2 every week active? Where will you draw the line?
The VIP cards will be sitting in the kid's account when he comes back. Or don't even bother getting VIP for a non-playing person. The issue is logging in to your kid's account, and snagging his cards.

We've gone through this for months, and who knows what they will actually do.

My bet is they end up canceling the VIP program, because they intended it to be something nice for people, but instead too many people wish to game it to get cheap packs.

kormai
10-07-2013, 11:00 AM
Well no matter how you guys turn it merging slacker backer means that the more you merge the less you get for your money.
And for VIP they should state some clear rule's to make sure it doesnt get abused, i aint abusing it but i dont wanne get banned because both me and my kid have an account with a possibility of 2 vip programs.

Xtopher
10-07-2013, 11:38 AM
Well no matter how you guys turn it merging slacker backer means that the more you merge the less you get for your money.
And for VIP they should state some clear rule's to make sure it doesnt get abused, i aint abusing it but i dont wanne get banned because both me and my kid have an account with a possibility of 2 vip programs.
I wouldn't worry about it. They have months to work out and announce the formal terms for the VIP program. Even if your intent was to abuse the system with your one extra account, you're still not the kind of person CZE is worried about. It's the people with 20 or 50 accounts flooding the market with $1 boosters they're trying to stop.

Maybe CZE will find a way to make VIP packs untradeable. That would solve the issue.

Yoss
10-07-2013, 11:39 AM
My bet is they end up canceling the VIP program, because they intended it to be something nice for people, but instead too many people wish to game it to get cheap packs.
I'm pretty sure they're doing it for the money, actually, and that means doing nice things for their players in return for money.

The problem is that they want to create the subscription hook for players to keep playing longer than they otherwise might, and to create stable income for the game on their balance sheets. However, unlike a WoW subscription, which doesn't really contain anything that you'd want to buy multiple of, Hex VIP contains commodities that are beneficial in large quantities.

So, they should either strip out the commodities from VIP so that there's no reason to want more than one (and lower the price), or set the price of VIP to be a multi-purchase subscription. Either way, they then do not have to worry about the headache of policing it. In the latter case, that VIP price will then drive the de facto booster price through the AH and the retail $2 boosters will not see many sales. In the former case, the backers who "bought" VIP already would still be given their no-longer-VIP booster packs as promised since the actual VIP would not include boosters any more.

I'd say they should remove the boosters from VIP and just have VIP include all the other stuff that wouldn't stack even if you did buy multiple (goldfishing tools, exclusive tournament entry, maybe some sleeves that only work while active in VIP, etc). Their problem then will be making VIP desireable enough without the boosters attached.

It's a tough problem.

kormai
10-07-2013, 11:55 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. They have months to work out and announce the formal terms for the VIP program. Even if your intent was to abuse the system with your one extra account, you're still not the kind of person CZE is worried about. It's the people with 20 or 50 accounts flooding the market with $1 boosters they're trying to stop.

Maybe CZE will find a way to make VIP packs untradeable. That would solve the issue.

Sorry my intend wasnt to abuse the system, my intend of posting this was to show the people to be carefull because the more you invest in slacker the less items you get for your money.

Xtopher
10-07-2013, 12:02 PM
Sorry my intend wasnt to abuse the system, my intend of posting this was to show the people to be carefull because the more you invest in slacker the less items you get for your money.
Didn't say it was your intent. I'm saying your fears about being banned for multiple accounts with VIP are nothing to worry about.

Gridian
10-07-2013, 12:04 PM
At least in Europe it will be hard to take any legal actions against someone who has legally bought a VIP-programm. Neither having 2 accounts is forbidden nor trading is forbidden.

But we love our rights in Europe... so could be different in the States.

I am sure Crypto is able to track this special behaviour, but as soon as they have sold something... they have to deliver, and trading is part of this game (TRADING CG).

Thats not true. Crypto will never take legal action against someone making 2 or 3 VIP accounts. It will be stated in the EULA (End User License Agreement) that one player can only have one active VIP account. Therefore Crypto does not need to take any legal action, by breaking the EULA you void the contract between yourself and crypto leading to crypto closing your account(s). You cannot take any legal action against this, since you broke a rule you agreed to.

If I were so stupid to try to open several VIP accounts I'd loose my Dragon Lord account, no matter the 1'000 Dollars I already paid.

As the Ferenghi Rule of Aquisition No. 17 states: "A contract is a contract is a contract."

Punk
10-07-2013, 01:06 PM
I really like the level of concern I am reading here for having multiple accounts with VIP at the same location. Even if the intentions of the second or even third account were used to specifically exploit the system, I don't see Cryptozoic (or any company for that matter) to care enough to ban you.

There are many easily exploitable systems like this setup to benefit new or long term players in different games, and they don't even start enforcing it by an IP block on account creation until well after the 5th account.

I do believe Cryptozoic will ban people for outright abusing the system, but I really think most people are overestimating the severity of it. They aren't gunning for your one or two extra accounts, they are going to be looking for the major infractions.

Turtlewing
10-07-2013, 01:26 PM
Thats not true. Crypto will never take legal action against someone making 2 or 3 VIP accounts. It will be stated in the EULA (End User License Agreement) that one player can only have one active VIP account. Therefore Crypto does not need to take any legal action, by breaking the EULA you void the contract between yourself and crypto leading to crypto closing your account(s). You cannot take any legal action against this, since you broke a rule you agreed to.

If I were so stupid to try to open several VIP accounts I'd loose my Dragon Lord account, no matter the 1'000 Dollars I already paid.

As the Ferenghi Rule of Aquisition No. 17 states: "A contract is a contract is a contract."

In some jurisdictions you may be able to demand a refund on any money you'd payed if they chose to ban your account. Specifics of when/how/how successful you'd be would vary of coarse, and legal costs are likely to be larger than what you can reasonably recover except in some edge cases.

There are many places where EULAs are not recognized as binding contracts, and many other places where consumer protection entitling the buyer to a refund for anything not "fit for purpose" trumps any contact signed as part of the sale.

Xtopher
10-07-2013, 01:27 PM
I really like the level of concern I am reading here for having multiple accounts with VIP at the same location. Even if the intentions of the second or even third account were used to specifically exploit the system, I don't see Cryptozoic (or any company for that matter) to care enough to ban you.
Yep. There's too many ways that people can be using their VIP account legitimately that involves trading packs between accounts for CZE to ban willy nilly. Really, if they're that concerned about it, making VIP boosters untradeable is their best option. Really no monitoring needed if that's how it will work.

Miwa
10-07-2013, 01:35 PM
There are many places where EULAs are not recognized as binding contracts, and many other places where consumer protection entitling the buyer to a refund for anything not "fit for purpose" trumps any contact signed as part of the sale.
And neither of those places are in SoCal where CZE is in, so whatever goofy country laws you might have don't matter. At least until CZE puts a server in your country, and has some sort of business entity there.

Otherwise, they can rightfully tell you to go pound sand if you don't like the EULA terms you agreed to. (Not that CZE would do that, as they are nice people)

Xintia
10-07-2013, 03:50 PM
A simple solution to this might be to change the VIP reward from four packs per month to one free booster draft per month. In terms of "value" all you'd be "losing" is a dollar (the difference between the fourth pack and a draft entry fee) but instead of a commodity that would be abuseable, you instead have something that is only of value to an account actively being played. The only downside is, what if you don't like drafting and you just want the packs to bolster your constructed decks? And that's a valid point. I guess it would come down to just how much of a problem people "farming" VIP accounts would be.

Xtopher
10-07-2013, 04:08 PM
Nice suggestion, Xintia.

Punk
10-07-2013, 04:17 PM
The only downside is, what if you don't like drafting and you just want the packs to bolster your constructed decks?

Yep, that pretty much shafts anyone who doesn't like drafting.

Turtlewing
10-07-2013, 04:42 PM
A simple solution to this might be to change the VIP reward from four packs per month to one free booster draft per month. In terms of "value" all you'd be "losing" is a dollar (the difference between the fourth pack and a draft entry fee) but instead of a commodity that would be abuseable, you instead have something that is only of value to an account actively being played. The only downside is, what if you don't like drafting and you just want the packs to bolster your constructed decks? And that's a valid point. I guess it would come down to just how much of a problem people "farming" VIP accounts would be.

That's a much worse solution than either enforcing the rules or making VIP packs account bound.

It's makes VIP completely uninteresting to anyone who doesn't like the draft format.

Personally I think people are making a mountain out of a mole-hill with the whole VIP abuse thing. Mostly CZE will be combating bots as part of their general anti-bot stance (like all online games do). Just play the game, don't actively try to break the rule, and you'll be fine. Meanwhile chances are some people will get away with having two VIP subs at least for some period of time, but in the big picture that's not a huge deal and if they get caught and banned it's their own fault for being greedy.

Bonbooka
10-07-2013, 04:51 PM
Yep, that pretty much shafts anyone who doesn't like drafting.

The only difference woud be 3 packs vs. 4 and I'd argue that getting to see the cards in 24 packs and choosing 45 will result in better cards for your collection than just ripping 4 packs. If you don't like drafting, drop after the draft phase and someone gets a bye. Not ideal but most people don't complain about getting a free win.

Zomnivore
10-07-2013, 05:01 PM
The only difference woud be 3 packs vs. 4 and I'd argue that getting to see the cards in 24 packs and choosing 45 will result in better cards for your collection than just ripping 4 packs. If you don't like drafting, drop after the draft phase and someone gets a bye. Not ideal but most people don't complain about getting a free win.

This is dripping cynicism. And self promotion.

Please if you're going to post in support of an idea could you be less blatantly self serving? It makes it so much easier to blow you off.

Bonbooka
10-07-2013, 05:27 PM
This is dripping cynicism. And self promotion.

Please if you're going to post in support of an idea could you be less blatantly self serving? It makes it so much easier to blow you off.

Are you for real? I was dead serious and not being cynical in the least. I think if you asked most people if they'd rather have 60 cards randomly selected or 45 cards that they get to choose from a pool of 360 (granted, you don't get to see all of them) I think most anyone who is actually trying to build a coherent deck would rather choose cards than leave it to chance.

Yeah, I draft and I've been on the receiving end of a bye but frankly I prefer to play than get a free win. All I was suggesting is that there is still an upside to this solution even if you don't like to draft. You get to PICK THE CARDS. So, you can come on down from your high horse and put your snide remark slinger back in it's holster. I said what I came to say and I'm moving on.

I do think its funny how your post about my supposed cynicism is itself extremely cynical. Here is the first definition of "cynical" that comes up on Google: "Believing that people are motivated by self-interest; distrustful of human sincerity or integrity." Too funny!

Xtopher
10-07-2013, 05:49 PM
TBH, drafting is the most economical way to build up your collection. I'm not a big fan of draft, but I do draft once in awhile (and I'll be drafting 1/wk for a long, long time). Ripping a pack outside of an event is never good to do.

Maybe CZE can have a PVE VIP package and a PVP VIP package?

jetah
10-07-2013, 08:42 PM
What I'm talking about is 1 person having multiple accounts with VIP. The secondary (all account except the main) account is dumping all of the booster/card to the main account. This is what CZE will be trying to stop.

I'm sure it'd be ok if cards were being traded between accounts in a household as long as 1 account wasnt receiving more than the others. This is my opinion. Only CZE could really answer it.

There could be ways around it as well. If your at a location with wifi, who's to say you didn't just buy a booster from someone then traded it. I'm sure that CZE will investigate everything they can before handing out bans.




As for the laws, I'm not a lawyer so I'm not going there.

Gridian
10-07-2013, 09:01 PM
What I'm talking about is 1 person having multiple accounts with VIP. The secondary (all account except the main) account is dumping all of the booster/card to the main account. This is what CZE will be trying to stop.

I'm sure it'd be ok if cards were being traded between accounts in a household as long as 1 account wasnt receiving more than the others. This is my opinion. Only CZE could really answer it.

There could be ways around it as well. If your at a location with wifi, who's to say you didn't just buy a booster from someone then traded it. I'm sure that CZE will investigate everything they can before handing out bans.




As for the laws, I'm not a lawyer so I'm not going there.

Absolutely. I guess even if one keeps 2 or 3 accounts with VIP but does not trade the VIP rewards to one account all the time (essentially abusing the system, as was discussed earlier) crypto would not swing the ban hammer.
They might notice that not much is happening on one such VIP account but that can have many reasons - so it'd be ignored. Banning only will take place if there are accounts from which cards are only going OUT. Their system will check for that. If cards also go IN or nothing at all happens (on a small amount of accounts) well... it is true, crypto has better things to do with their time :-)

Turtlewing
10-08-2013, 08:22 AM
Absolutely. I guess even if one keeps 2 or 3 accounts with VIP but does not trade the VIP rewards to one account all the time (essentially abusing the system, as was discussed earlier) crypto would not swing the ban hammer.
They might notice that not much is happening on one such VIP account but that can have many reasons - so it'd be ignored. Banning only will take place if there are accounts from which cards are only going OUT. Their system will check for that. If cards also go IN or nothing at all happens (on a small amount of accounts) well... it is true, crypto has better things to do with their time :-)

That might not be true.

The rule is "one per person". If they suspect multiple accounts belong to one person they may take action. But if you are really running all accounts separately and not farming them you will probably avoid detection.

I'd imagine that the main things CZE wants to prevent (in descending order of priority) are:
1. Large scale pack farming for resale
2. People signing up additional accounts to get cheap packs for themselves (the "my wife wants VIP even though she always gives me her packs and only logs in once a moth to hand them over" case)

They probably don't care about the case of two active players who have arranged one to get all the VIP packs from both subs in exchange for some compensation.