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Shepherd74
10-09-2013, 08:33 PM
Seven "repair installations" later I got the Alpha working. There are some rough edges, but I have to say I had an absolute blast playing the AI in my first game. Guard Dog, clone wizard guy, and cleric for the win. Thanks much for making this project a reality. Looking forward to many more games.

You guys must be working really hard to bring this game to us. Please know we appreciate it.

slipperyjoe
10-09-2013, 08:34 PM
Mom says it's my turn to play.

Draxy
10-09-2013, 08:35 PM
Package it up and share it somewhere please!

The internet will call you a god!

Mushroom_C1oud
10-09-2013, 08:37 PM
I think I got about 12 hours left on the download

Nlarge
10-09-2013, 08:39 PM
I wish it only took me 7 :( I'm on 11 right now. Still haven't gotten past the black screen :(

Gridian
10-09-2013, 08:39 PM
Hm, it took me just one repair - looks like I was lucky xD

Seriously, though: HEX is awesome! :D

Shepherd74
10-09-2013, 08:43 PM
I wish it only took me 7 :( I'm on 11 right now. Still haven't gotten past the black screen :(

Keep the faith man. I really can't recall how many times I had to repair. It was a lot. But each time it was less and less files (or so it seemed). You'll get there. And the good news is the game shows amazing promise. It's very much worth the effort.

Vibraxus
10-09-2013, 08:43 PM
I think I got about 12 hours left on the download

12 hours? Im at about 12 days remaining.

Truhls
10-09-2013, 08:44 PM
14 repairs here, went all the way down to 11,10,9,8 then shot up to 17...... D:

negativeZer0
10-09-2013, 10:31 PM
I'm still downloading the client going on 8 hours now. Serious lack of foresight on the part of Crypto. Even a few minutes thought should have told them it was a good idea to require authentication BEFORE patching starts.

numbersix
10-09-2013, 10:37 PM
I am currently stuck system finds 1000+ files that need a repair but can't even repair the first one. Just hangs at zero files repaired for five minutes, then says patching complete, but does not work

Jugan
10-10-2013, 12:08 AM
I am currently stuck system finds 1000+ files that need a repair but can't even repair the first one. Just hangs at zero files repaired for five minutes, then says patching complete, but does not work

sounds like you're in for another 12 hour installation process :(

Handsofevil
10-10-2013, 01:12 AM
I don't blame them, because I know I wouldn't have thought about that. Hindsight is 20-20 and we can blame them all we want, but at least they are having an open Alpha. All we can do is recommend they have a private launcher if the beta is tiered.

Kardh
10-10-2013, 01:44 AM
I finally got in as well despite some still broken files (I think). It sort of works well enough to let me play a game vs the AI before going to work, so after work I can begin reporting bugs. However, it will be quite hard to determine what is caused by broken files. I guess I'll keep hitting repair often and see if it improves.

Kardh
10-10-2013, 01:46 AM
I can mention that the AI is VERY crude at the moment. For example, it played Blaze Elemental AFTER the attack phase :P

I guess that was good though.. not sure I could have beaten it if it had played well, but now I'm off to an undefeated start with my masterful *cough* sapphire/burn deck!

tatsumasa
10-10-2013, 06:43 AM
I don't blame them, because I know I wouldn't have thought about that. Hindsight is 20-20 and we can blame them all we want, but at least they are having an open Alpha. All we can do is recommend they have a private launcher if the beta is tiered.

It has nothing to do with hindsight as the community is saying they should have done it in the first place but they didn't. When MMOs were new, these kind of oversights were not oversights; no one knew how to do it. However, we have plenty of examples of how it should be done now, e.g.:

*Server queues to prevent everyone on at the same time (hopefully avoidable through sufficient hardware)
*Tiny launcher download that requires authentication to update/dl full game

Not to mention there are tools that they could use to calculate the load required for their application & users to plan out necessary hardware and bandwidth. I get it that this is cryptozoic's first stab at this realm, but for as much money as they raised and money they already have, I think more research could have been done to prevent some of these fundamental flaws. That being said, if they learn and fix it then at least they show respect for the community.

phyzycs
10-10-2013, 06:57 AM
It has nothing to do with hindsight as the community is saying they should have done it in the first place but they didn't. When MMOs were new, these kind of oversights were not oversights; no one knew how to do it. However, we have plenty of examples of how it should be done now, e.g.:

*Server queues to prevent everyone on at the same time (hopefully avoidable through sufficient hardware)
*Tiny launcher download that requires authentication to update/dl full game

Not to mention there are tools that they could use to calculate the load required for their application & users to plan out necessary hardware and bandwidth. I get it that this is cryptozoic's first stab at this realm, but for as much money as they raised and money they already have, I think more research could have been done to prevent some of these fundamental flaws. That being said, if they learn and fix it then at least they show respect for the community.

Day one of Alpha and already people complaining that "alpha" isn't an excuse for it being an alpha?

I don't get this. You should be grateful for what CZE is doing for its community and you're shitting all over them - the community and CZE. If you want to provide constructive criticism, then do that. But the more you spread around your toxic attitude, the less fun the rest will have just because you've placed misconceptions within your standards of what an Alpha really is.

Shepherd74
10-10-2013, 07:09 AM
No need to argue about the launcher. Or to employ profanity. It's clear the install needs work. It's also true the alpha had been out for less than 24 hours. We are here to help them iron out issues before a general release. Not to bicker.

JakeFreedom
10-10-2013, 07:12 AM
It does put a damper on things, when all does't work out correctly. I agree with phyzycs, Alpha is Alpha, that includes the client, downloading, etc. I am sure all the CZE employees are taking notes on what needs to be fixed. They will then prioritize that said list and roll out the fixes in a manor that they see fit. I would guess the part on getting the client will have to change before they send out anymore invites to avoid the issues that we have seen so far. My hats off to these guys and gals. As a software developer my self. I feel for all.

tatsumasa
10-10-2013, 07:18 AM
Day one of Alpha and already people complaining that "alpha" isn't an excuse for it being an alpha?

I don't get this. You should be grateful for what CZE is doing for its community and you're shitting all over them - the community and CZE. If you want to provide constructive criticism, then do that. But the more you spread around your toxic attitude, the less fun the rest will have just because you've placed misconceptions within your standards of what an Alpha really is.

Ah of course we shouldn't provide feedback, you are totally right. Let them just put out broken things and we won't say a word so that the alpha can accomplish nothing.

Make no mistake, by no means is cryptozoic doing us a favor by pushing out alpha. They are getting free testing and feedback. In fact, people paid for the ability to give them feedback.

Additionally, I did not say "it sucks", I offered ideas as well in my post. If you want to be so blinded by loyalty that you cannot call out problems, then do it, but don't tell other people they can't post about problems.

SomeoneRandom
10-10-2013, 07:18 AM
I think the main thing here is perception. I know this is alpha, I know it was rushed, I know there will be bugs. That being said... there are fundamental missteps in how they handled this distribution and at a fundamental level it shows their lines of thinking. They raised 2.3 million that they didn't actually require to create this game, they raised expectations and made promises... with this money they should have hired more talent. I don't care how day 1 alpha goes, hell I don't even care how alpha goes, but my worry is that I have now seen their mindset and I am unsure how they will deliver on a full game.

Being in software development I understand time estimation is poor when planning far ahead. We are now in Mid-October with a spoiler that doesn't contain 70 cards and an alpha that will be lasting "a few months". We are now probably not going to see beta until end of the year, when we were originally hearing full release by end of the year. One of the big problems with this is how only having one set is going to get stale, With a full release near the end of the year originally we were looking at Set 2 in perhaps March-April, now its looking more like June-July. How many people do you think will be interested in playing with the same 400 cards for that long? It will get stale fast...

In the end, I just hope they realize with this how far behind they are and get more talent ASAP, using the "Blizzard" method is VERY risky and I don't want this game to fall flat on its face due to being delayed for so long.

phyzycs
10-10-2013, 07:26 AM
Ah of course we shouldn't provide feedback, you are totally right. Let them just put out broken things and we won't say a word so that the alpha can accomplish nothing.

Make no mistake, by no means is cryptozoic doing us a favor by pushing out alpha. They are getting free testing and feedback. In fact, people paid for the ability to give them feedback.

Additionally, I did not say "it sucks", I offered ideas as well in my post. If you want to be so blinded by loyalty that you cannot call out problems, then do it, but don't tell other people they can't post about problems.

Maybe you missed the part I wrote in regards to constructive criticism. There's no "loyalty" speak in what I write, but more common sense in what a testing cycle is.

Just so you know, they still have an internal testing team as well. The money that you or anyone spent backing this game on kickstarter doesn't grant you or anyone any special privileges. They originally weren't planning on involving everyone in the alpha and they decided to allow it as a thank you. The benefits that you purchased are for the decks, cards, and whatever extras were included in said package.

Saying that alpha is just an excuse is not constructive criticism.

Berkhtar
10-10-2013, 07:39 AM
I think the main thing here is perception. I know this is alpha, I know it was rushed, I know there will be bugs. That being said... there are fundamental missteps in how they handled this distribution and at a fundamental level it shows their lines of thinking. They raised 2.3 million that they didn't actually require to create this game, they raised expectations and made promises... with this money they should have hired more talent. I don't care how day 1 alpha goes, hell I don't even care how alpha goes, but my worry is that I have now seen their mindset and I am unsure how they will deliver on a full game.

Being in software development I understand time estimation is poor when planning far ahead. We are now in Mid-October with a spoiler that doesn't contain 70 cards and an alpha that will be lasting "a few months". We are now probably not going to see beta until end of the year, when we were originally hearing full release by end of the year. One of the big problems with this is how only having one set is going to get stale, With a full release near the end of the year originally we were looking at Set 2 in perhaps March-April, now its looking more like June-July. How many people do you think will be interested in playing with the same 400 cards for that long? It will get stale fast...

In the end, I just hope they realize with this how far behind they are and get more talent ASAP, using the "Blizzard" method is VERY risky and I don't want this game to fall flat on its face due to being delayed for so long.

You sound simply "unhyped" a bit. Perhaps you should leave your download alone for a while... have a walk. And afterwards it will get better.

Comparing Crypto (small team) with Blizzard or similar companies makes me laugh.

Their first game, their first experiences... they make mistakes, but calling them greedy only based on a bad alpha start (basically only a bad alpha download start) is a bit ridiculous.

Rapkannibale
10-10-2013, 07:42 AM
People are complaining about an ALPHA not working??? Seriously people, tell me the last company that let you participate in an Alpha. Mojang would come to mind but that was an indie developer.

They put out the alpha and they warned us that things will be broken. They obviously don't have the most robust server infrastructure yet because servers are expensive and they can't have the full set up going before the game actually goes live.

The alternative would have been that they delay the alpha further to get it a bit more polished, but that would have made people complain as well. Just be patient and know that the guys and girls at CZE are doing all they can to make our ALPHA experience as smooth as possible.

EDIT: This was not targeted at the OP by the way.

tatsumasa
10-10-2013, 07:45 AM
Maybe you missed the part I wrote in regards to constructive criticism. There's no "loyalty" speak in what I write, but more common sense in what a testing cycle is.

Just so you know, they still have an internal testing team as well. The money that you or anyone spent backing this game on kickstarter doesn't grant you or anyone any special privileges. They originally weren't planning on involving everyone in the alpha and they decided to allow it as a thank you. The benefits that you purchased are for the decks, cards, and whatever extras were included in said package.

Saying that alpha is just an excuse is not constructive criticism.

It's strange that in a lot of your posts you certainly seem to be taking Hex criticism pretty personally. They was nothing "toxic" about my post, how about you post feedback about the game instead of the users? I don't even know what point you are trying to make saying "alpha is just an excuse".

I think SomeoneRandom said it quite well--crypto's behavior thus far is beginning to concern the community. The point of kickstarting for most of games is to get the people who supported involved in making the game what the users want. We are going to do that with every piece of the game we get in our hands, not just go "ohhh it's okay, just a first attempt let's not tell them what's broken I bet they can figure it out on their own." Perhaps some people do not convey their input in a way that pleases everyone, but as long as it is not degraded in to "this is crap", there is something to be taken from even a negative post.

phyzycs
10-10-2013, 07:56 AM
It's strange that in a lot of your posts you certainly seem to be taking Hex criticism pretty personally. They was nothing "toxic" about my post, how about you post feedback about the game instead of the users? I don't even know what point you are trying to make saying "alpha is just an excuse".

I think SomeoneRandom said it quite well--crypto's behavior thus far is beginning to concern the community. The point of kickstarting for most of games is to get the people who supported involved in making the game what the users want. We are going to do that with every piece of the game we get in our hands, not just go "ohhh it's okay, just a first attempt let's not tell them what's broken I bet they can figure it out on their own." Perhaps some people do not convey their input in a way that pleases everyone, but as long as it is not degraded in to "this is crap", there is something to be taken from even a negative post.

Switching the focus on the point? I don't see the need for that. Saying that alpha is an excuse, agreeing with it, etc, is pretty toxic and you're missing the whole point of what this testing cycle is for. That's the whole point of my original post in regards to the OP and other KS backer posts.

Now it's the behavior of CZE? I'm curious, what is the behavior that you're seeing? And what client are you running right now to provide the feedback necessary for making this game what the users want? I don't need to search your posts to see that you, like many other people, lack the knowledge of the principles of the testing cycle. I've said this already: We are day one in the alpha and we're already getting posts, like this, spewing melodramatic crap. The updater/installer doesn't work. That's great, report that. It's a bug. Again, that's the purpose of this whole testing cycle and the next cycle.

It doesn't mean that we shouldn't say something. The point is that it should be constructive, not spreading hate on a developer for not delivering what *your* expectations are for an alpha. They already laid it out to everyone. Clearly you didn't get the memo.

Moving forward: 1) Constructive feedback. 2) Context. 3) Patience.

SomeoneRandom
10-10-2013, 07:57 AM
You sound simply "unhyped" a bit. Perhaps you should leave your download alone for a while... have a walk. And afterwards it will get better.

Comparing Crypto (small team) with Blizzard or similar companies makes me laugh.

Their first game, their first experiences... they make mistakes, but calling them greedy only based on a bad alpha start (basically only a bad alpha download start) is a bit ridiculous.

I am unhyped, I was given a deadline and they missed it. I was told they didn't even need the 2.3 million they got, yet they never looked for more employees to meet their deadline. Don't get me wrong, this is the only game I have been looking forward to since the kickstarter began, I am just really worried about the future of my investment of both time and money. I WANT this game to succeed, I WANT it to be everything we expected.

When I saw a Tuesday release day I expected that I wouldn't be playing until the weekend(and honestly I don't have much time until then anyways), but I assumed that would be due to servers and bugs in the client, not bad decision making.

I am not comparing them to Blizzard, but the "Blizzard method" of HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE push back date by 2 years. I don't want that to happen to this game exactly BECAUSE they aren't blizzard. They don't have a big enough fan base to lose people due to loss of interest.

Finally, the main point of my post was to point out that I am not disappointed there are problems, I am disappointed with the poor decision making process that got us to the state we are in. I can't imagine how we ended up downloading raw uncompressed files without any sort of authentication or preloading. They had plenty of options to do better on this release and AGAIN I DON'T CARE THAT THEIR CHOICES FAILED, I am just worried about how they arrived at this decision and it shakes my faith in the full release

tatsumasa
10-10-2013, 08:04 AM
Yes, I think SomeoneRandom conveys an accurate sentiment.

Cyrptozoic is very good at making cards games, but they have never made an MMO PC card game. However, they have a lot of resources raised in this project that they could be getting support from experts in that field, but they didn't seem to. We want the game to succeed, so we are worried about the bad decisions made thus far. I do not expect anyone who makes an "investment" to not express concerns when it goes in a direction they do not want--which I should remind is the point of the kickstarting community--to guide the project to their "expectations." To sit back and not say what you want betrays the entire spirit and point of this model. I expect that as soon as they clear up these problems (and here I reveal confidence in them working to fix what we told them was wrong), there will be many interface/balance posts cropping up so I hope people do not also backlash against advice given in that regard as well.

ramseytheory
10-10-2013, 08:31 AM
I wonder how many people here have actually experienced alpha-testing - true alpha testing, not the sort of beta-quality alphas some indies put out - and project scheduling themselves. I suspect most of the people complaining would be horrified if they looked at alpha builds of most AAA titles, or at the number of internal deadlines AAA titles miss. I'm only an amateur programmer myself, but I'm also a mathematician and there are many parallels between a collaborative paper and a small-scale software project. I don't think I've ever met someone with the ability to put out a first draft ("alpha") that's not filled with errors - or for that matter estimate how long a paper will take to write with any degree of accuracy.

In other words, CZE's mistake here wasn't letting the deadline slip - that's pretty much unavoidable even for veteran software developers. Their mistake was in trying to give their unpadded, up-to-the-minute estimates for the actual completion date rather than just giving a vague padded window ("Q4 2013") and a promise that it will be out when it's done. And I'm not going to criticise them for being too transparent.

What does worry me is that they might damage themselves with excessive crunch time in trying to live up to these deadlines, leading to a worse-quality final product. Get some rest, guys! It's counter-intuitive, but it will make you more productive rather than less.

e: Also, I thought the original release estimate was spring 2014, not the end of this year? Though realistically I'd expect that to slip to summer or even autumn.

Svenn
10-10-2013, 08:34 AM
I wonder how many people here have actually experienced alpha-testing - true alpha testing, not the sort of beta-quality alphas some indies put out - and project scheduling themselves. I suspect most of the people complaining would be horrified if they looked at alpha builds of most AAA titles, or at the number of internal deadlines AAA titles miss.
I've got a Software Programming degree and I've been doing professional QA testing for over 7 years now... and reading all this stuff on the forums is hilarious to me. ;)

Zaxian
10-10-2013, 08:40 AM
I am unhyped, I was given a deadline and they missed it. I was told they didn't even need the 2.3 million they got, yet they never looked for more employees to meet their deadline.
I would like to direct you toward the Mythical Man Month (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month), particularly Brooks's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law): "adding manpower to a late software project makes it later".

phyzycs
10-10-2013, 08:40 AM
In other words, CZE's mistake here wasn't letting the deadline slip - that's pretty much unavoidable even for veteran software developers. Their mistake was in trying to give their unpadded, up-to-the-minute estimates for the actual completion date rather than just giving a vague padded window ("Q4 2013") and a promise that it will be out when it's done. And I'm not going to criticise them for being too transparent.

What does worry me is that they might damage themselves with excessive crunch time in trying to live up to these deadlines, leading to a worse-quality final product. Get some rest, guys! It's counter-intuitive, but it will make you more productive rather than less.

I agree with this 100% and you word this quite well. I think it's obvious to see that these guys are working around the clock to get this going. Deadlines are one of the biggest hurdles and I worry about much of the hate that I see floating around on the forums right now; very much to your point of trying to meet those deadlines with a crunch. Of course, that is inevitable in most cases.

SomeoneRandom
10-10-2013, 08:46 AM
I would like to direct you toward the Mythical Man Month (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month), particularly Brooks's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law): "adding manpower to a late software project makes it later".

I know that rule, but my point is that they didn't have to wait until it was late. They knew once they first hit their goal on day 3 that they had high expectations and had money to throw around. Just looking at the files we have downloaded I can make some assumptions on their engine and honestly I think even a fleet of Jr level coders could put in effort to create targets, effects etc in the way they are granulated. Even if you assume 1-2 months of ramp time that still gives us people on-boarded and caught up by August.

Zaxian
10-10-2013, 08:55 AM
I know that rule, but my point is that they didn't have to wait until it was late. They knew once they first hit their goal on day 3 that they had high expectations and had money to throw around. Just looking at the files we have downloaded I can make some assumptions on their engine and honestly I think even a fleet of Jr level coders could put in effort to create targets, effects etc in the way they are granulated. Even if you assume 1-2 months of ramp time that still gives us people on-boarded and caught up by August.
1-2 months of ramp up time and how many months of recruitment time? Are you envisaging a pool of suitably skilled, unemployed devs floating around just waiting for a project like this? The majority of appropriately skilled developers will be in jobs, with at least 30 day notice periods, not to mention the additional cost of recruiting.

It also occurs to me that perhaps Cryptozoic intend to put some of the investment aside for maintaining the game after launch? Rather than blowing it on hiring (and subsequently firing) a whole load of additional devs who may or may not help the project go faster?

beepharoni
10-10-2013, 10:29 AM
This is a classic case of "You can't make everyone happy all the time". We saw a similar split in the happiness level of backers throughout the kickstarter campaign. Some people crying "this reward sucks, we want more!", while others were extremely happy about how the kickstarter was progressing.

I liked the positive community atmosphere that we had pre 10/8/13 alpha release date a lot more than I like the community that we have currently. I for one agree with both sides of the argument, but I understand that it's going to be a bumpy road, and don't let me jimmies get too rustled by the fact that they have to push their dates back a bit, and delay things. It's expected. I'd rather that they push things back and give us something that is in working order, than letting them force something out and have it be trash.

I hope this game has a long life, as I'm sure most of you all do. So let's stop being sour and upset over silly things such as alpha-testing a game that is obviously going to be riddled with bugs/crashes/typos, and let's get back to being a strong community who rallies behind the developers whom we have given a small fortune to in hopes that they can come through on their dream, and let's not act like it isn't a game for them as much as it is for us. They want the same things that we want here, unlike other game companies who care only about getting paid (*cough*blizzard*cough*).

Let's stop criticizing every small mistake that they make, stop jumping down their throats, or up their asses about it and let's give them some positive reinforcement. You catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar.

Rapkannibale
10-10-2013, 10:43 AM
The level if hypocrisy that exists on the internet amazes me. I'm assuming all the people pointing fingers at CZE for missing a deadline have never themselves missed a deadline or been late with something right? I'm work in the video game a industry and trust me there are so many unknowns when making games that is literally impossible to give an accurate deadline and make sure nothing goes wrong.

Just chill! They never promised anyone that they would be in on day one of Alpha. You, like very other backer will get access to alpha. Go on with your lives and just wait for the email.