PDA

View Full Version : Collector's AA cards



Lochar
10-10-2013, 03:57 PM
A random thought.

All images of cards are pulled down to our local machines. As I see some files in set one are number with (2) or something similar, I assume that is how the system will flag Alt Art.

What stops someone from building a script to kick off after patch check to rename all Alt Art cards to the normal art name? We have to have all the art downloaded afterall, else we'll see an empty card image if we're playing against someone else's AA stuff.

ossuary
10-10-2013, 05:28 PM
Because seeing them is not owning them?

Lochar
10-10-2013, 06:23 PM
Yeah, but if I replace the normal art file with the AA art file, I'm still playing with the AA art.

IndigoShade
10-10-2013, 06:31 PM
If that is possible, it would be a situation similar to that of the League of Legends player-made skins no? Where you could see it on your client, but everyone else would still see the original? If so, I think LoL still makes a killing off skin sales, I guess because the whole idea for a lot of people is to show off :p

Lochar
10-10-2013, 06:41 PM
The first Hex virus. It replaces all your art with stick figures. :D

Cory_Jones
10-10-2013, 06:59 PM
We will figure it out :)
I want to retain control over the art and appearance "in-game"

Lochar
10-10-2013, 07:11 PM
Hi Cory, thanks for replying. I figure you guys will I just wanted to note it.

Also, just because you put a cool Avatar on your name doesn't mean you're not still a Princess to us. Sorry!

Madican
10-10-2013, 07:14 PM
Still think that a sort of Alternate Art program would be fantastic in the way of community-created content. It'd be vetted by Crypto (so no porn), voted on by the community, and if implemented for the "shop" then the maker receives royalties or something. Pretty much lift Valve's Workshop wholesale.

Cory_Jones
10-10-2013, 07:23 PM
still think that a sort of alternate art program would be fantastic in the way of community-created content. It'd be vetted by crypto (so no porn), voted on by the community, and if implemented for the "shop" then the maker receives royalties or something. Pretty much lift valve's workshop wholesale.

love it!

EmraldArcher
10-10-2013, 08:40 PM
We will figure it out :)
I want to retain control over the art and appearance "in-game"

As someone with no programming knowledge how would you prevent something like this?

If someone is changing the file names on their local client how is the server going to realize it's not the right art?

BlueRider
10-10-2013, 11:29 PM
It's relatively simple. They make a Hash of every file, then check to make sure all of the Hashes match. Any files that don't match are "corrupted" and have to be downloaded again.

EmraldArcher
10-11-2013, 12:01 AM
It's relatively simple. They make a Hash of every file, then check to make sure all of the Hashes match. Any files that don't match are "corrupted" and have to be downloaded again.

I...have no idea what the means. :confused:

Chiany
10-11-2013, 12:06 AM
I...have no idea what the means. :confused:

Programmers do ;)

Gwaer
10-11-2013, 12:09 AM
All it takes is someone to patch out the bit that checks the hash to make it return good on the files no matter what. This is not a trivial problem to solve. You make it so that breaks the updates. Someone makes an updater. People go to incredible lengths for this stuff. Then they make it easy for everyone else to do.

Marsden
10-11-2013, 01:15 AM
If someone starts hacking at clients to see AA cards that's a separate problem really. Making it so people can't just copy card graphics around is a good start.

Erde
10-11-2013, 01:48 AM
All it takes is someone to patch out the bit that checks the hash to make it return good on the files no matter what. This is not a trivial problem to solve. You make it so that breaks the updates. Someone makes an updater. People go to incredible lengths for this stuff. Then they make it easy for everyone else to do.

Yeah. Code obfuscation and encryption are probably what they need too. And that's a pain, let me tell you...
It will be a cat and mouse game like you described.

I'm afraid that unless they already have counter measures, we will have a flood of script kiddies from the get go.

Especially Unity games seem to have fallen victim of RAM alteration what I have witnessed. It has been trivial to cheat that way as pre-made programs exist to assist in such and are in wide use.

Gwaer
10-11-2013, 01:59 AM
Honestly my advice is don't worry about people replacing card art on their own machines. It's not worth the resources to stop. The point of AA is to show of to others more than to yourself. Just make sure the server trusts absolutely nothing the client tells it and the client never knows anything the player shouldn't know. Like what cards are in your opponents hand or deck.

Niedar
10-11-2013, 02:01 AM
They can not prevent it period. They can make it more complicated but that is about it. But who cares, you are the only one that will see it.

keldrin
10-11-2013, 03:14 AM
Well... the whole scenario of who cares does change, when they start streaming it, or dumping videos on to places like youtube.
When all the coyotle, are different pictures of willie coyote. The Shin hare are all pics of bugs bunny.
Humans are Elmer fudd, Orcs are Alice the goon, the necrotic are casper the friendly ghost, and the elves are all Keebler elves.

Atomzed
10-11-2013, 03:18 AM
Well, either people will avoid those streams because it's not the official cards, or it will popularize a new Hex genre, where people play with funny images (I imagine WWE trading card enthusiasts will use their own cards for hex-parody...)

I don't see why there is a need to spend resources coding for this event. Especially as the others have said, people will always be able to circumvent the safeguards.

Athravan
10-11-2013, 03:31 AM
I play league of legends and people have figured out a way to get custom skins in game by injecting the client with another program that changes it on your PC. The thing is ... only you can see them, it's only on your PC, no one else knows you're using them, so I guess it's nice for you, but ultimately doesn't affect anything. It is against the terms of service to edit the game files in any way, and you can get banned for it, technically, yet some popular streamers put out videos with them using custom skins and Riot has never mentioned taking action because it doesn't hurt anyone. 99.9% of people still spend money and buy the expensive, cosmetic skins because they want to show it off to the world. Only being able to see it yourself and knowing everyone else just sees the default isn't that satisfying.

No matter what you do to safeguard it, someone out there will probably find a way around it - but I don't see the majority of players of this sort of game getting much satisfaction for circumventing it when no one else will see it, especially with a risk of losing your account for it.

ossuary
10-11-2013, 04:50 AM
You can't prevent people messing with the code, but you can make it more difficult. There are several methods, one of which is running hash checks from the server instead of directly inside the client (of course, you can also patch out the piece of code in the client that calls the server check). No one solution can stop everything, and even a combination of steps to make everything more complex and difficult to decompile can still eventually be defeated, if someone really wants to. Of course, you can also program the server to check for memory patterns in the client, so if someone connects with a modified client program, you can identify them and ban them.

The whole thing is kind of like an ever-escalating cold war. But as long as the customer and account database is not directly accessible from the client (i.e. there's an intermediary server, and the customer database is internal only), hacking the client won't compromise anything else. That's the main thing to be sure of.

Turtlewing
10-11-2013, 08:18 AM
For the most part I would expect this will not be a real problem.

The value of AA cards comes from the rarity of the card not as much from the specific art (for any card there are likely to be people who prefer the default art over the AA ascetically). Between collectors who want one copy of every version, people who want to show off their rare cards, and people who actually prefer the default art on at least one AA card, I don't see client side mods killing the market for AA cards.

That said it probably does make sense to have some basic protection in place to prevent client side modding. But you don't need to make it bullet proof, just make it difficult enough that every 2-bit script-kiddy can't rename the image files and call it a day. Checking hashes of the files against the server would probably be good enough IMO.

RCDv57
10-12-2013, 10:52 AM
Well... the whole scenario of who cares does change, when they start streaming it, or dumping videos on to places like youtube.
When all the coyotle, are different pictures of willie coyote. The Shin hare are all pics of bugs bunny.
Humans are Elmer fudd, Orcs are Alice the goon, the necrotic are casper the friendly ghost, and the elves are all Keebler elves.

If someone did something similar to that I'm certain that they would boast about how and what they did.
It is a problem if they go the other route and tell everybody that Crypto made the game like that. Or hack the client to make everyones game like that.
Lets be honest, I don't think anyone who wants to see the game fail enough to put that much time and effort into ruining the game for others.

Zomnivore
10-12-2013, 12:11 PM
Still think that a sort of Alternate Art program would be fantastic in the way of community-created content. It'd be vetted by Crypto (so no porn), voted on by the community, and if implemented for the "shop" then the maker receives royalties or something. Pretty much lift Valve's Workshop wholesale.

I actually like this a lot...I'm sort of stupid for not seeing it as another monitization option.

Card games brain fart. Would be even more cool for specific cards like the gem cards.

Vorpal
10-12-2013, 01:11 PM
Yeah, but if I replace the normal art file with the AA art file, I'm still playing with the AA art.

Your opponent will not see them.