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guildwarsnrhk
10-11-2013, 04:26 AM
Creatures:
4 Demented Demolisher

Basic Actions:
4 Chronic Madness
4 Oracle Song

Quick Actions:
3 Yesterday

Resources:
21 Blood
24 Sapphire

Champion:
Bertram Cragraven

The Combo you've all been waiting for!
Bring out that deranged goblin, listen to some Coyotle melodies, and make your opponent Mad!

vulture27
10-11-2013, 06:08 AM
Serious or troll?

Assuming you are really considering this; it is never a good idea to make a single card in your deck the entire focus of what you are doing (unless you have tutor effects, which there are none in Hex pvp). The fact that you are focusing on a 5 cost card, you will be dead long before this deck does anything.

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 07:28 AM
Very interesting concept. Assuming you can survive to casting the Demolisher... it would be very cool to watch.

EmraldArcher
10-11-2013, 07:34 AM
Very interesting concept. Assuming you can survive to casting the Demolisher... it would be very cool to watch.

You not only have to survive long enough to cast the Demolisher but to actually mill out your opponent. Not very likely when you have nothing to stop your opponent from bashing your face in.

Blackhoof
10-11-2013, 07:47 AM
Concept is really fun but this deck need some more utility to survive. It has really low chance to make its plan work.
I'd like to add here Extinction and Stormcall. And more card draw + utility cards like Archmage Wrenlocke, Pact of Pain (+Life Siphon maybe) and Secret Laboratory.

This can give such deck some more turns to survive. But i doubt it can become competitive while based only on this idea.

jtatta
10-11-2013, 08:17 AM
What people are saying is pretty accurate. You need something to survive to where you can actually start to combo them over the course of a handful of turns.

I tested (and plan to write about on our website) a Demolisher deck last night during my stream and it was absolutely insane. I tried three colors but quickly realized that two was the best way to go. You're on the right page by playing a much higher count of resources but went just a bit overboard. I was playing 29 but think that 27 or 28 seems pretty accurate. I was playing Blood and Diamond and tried to abuse Demolisher with Eternal Youth and Pact of Pain while using Sliver of the Eternal Spear as a win condition.

I played about 6 games with the deck before I went to bed and won all the games that didn't actually freeze up mid game. The deck is actually very, very good.

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 08:22 AM
That I want to see. Is that stream recorded, by chance?

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 08:25 AM
Also: I was thinking that such a deck would potentially be countered by eliminating the Spear with artifact removal. However, the unlimited use of Eternal Youth would eventually result in the defeat of the other player by decking out. Assuming they didn't have their own escalation card.

Edit: I'm imagining a world where The Fate Rack is a common sideboard card.

guildwarsnrhk
10-11-2013, 09:52 AM
Actually very serious. I haven't lost a single game with it yet, playing about 8 or 9 games with different opponents. Also, there is i believe ~ 84% chance of being in my hand within the first 3 mulls. I did a LOT of math and made sure it was very very likely that I would be able to get 5 lands by the 5th turn.


Serious or troll?

Assuming you are really considering this; it is never a good idea to make a single card in your deck the entire focus of what you are doing (unless you have tutor effects, which there are none in Hex pvp). The fact that you are focusing on a 5 cost card, you will be dead long before this deck does anything.

guildwarsnrhk
10-11-2013, 09:53 AM
I played 2 streamers last night. HexedHavoc, and ErrantSquire. You should be able to browse their twitch and find it. I was not even close to losing. Had answers at every turn.


Very interesting concept. Assuming you can survive to casting the Demolisher... it would be very cool to watch.

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 10:22 AM
Cool, this might be the first community-discovered, broken-OP deck strategy of Alpha.

EmraldArcher
10-11-2013, 10:27 AM
I doubt this strategy has enough consistency to be viable as a top tier deck.

guildwarsnrhk
10-11-2013, 10:37 AM
Oh, its very consistent. The issue is countermagic. But since that isn't implemented yet, there is no answer other than milling me back or getting a perfect aggro combo.

Juve
10-11-2013, 10:45 AM
shouldnt 4 excintion be better that yesterday ?

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 10:45 AM
Countermagic. Lucky milling. Or Resource destruction AFTER Demolisher is played... in Jtatta's case- perhaps artifact removal, but that still leaves infinite Eternal Youths being a problem.

So that's about three specific cards: Countermagic, Fate Rack, and Demolish/Resource Destroy Gem. Maybe the Cosmic Totem simply for dead draws?


I don't think that's enough options. We might have a problem deck type on our hands.

Juve
10-11-2013, 11:07 AM
only thing that protect him from getting milled are sprears, coz he can add them before draw point

can some1 tell me how escalation cards help against mill ?

EmraldArcher
10-11-2013, 11:09 AM
only thing that protect him from getting milled are sprears, coz he can add them before draw point

can some1 tell me how escalation cards help against mill ?

After you play them they get shuffled back into your deck.

It doesn't totally prevent you from being milled though since there is instant speed milling (The Fate Rack).


Countermagic. Lucky milling. Or Resource destruction AFTER Demolisher is played... in Jtatta's case- perhaps artifact removal, but that still leaves infinite Eternal Youths being a problem.

So that's about three specific cards: Countermagic, Fate Rack, and Demolish/Resource Destroy Gem. Maybe the Cosmic Totem simply for dead draws?


I don't think that's enough options. We might have a problem deck type on our hands.

Seems a little premature to call a deck broken when:

1. All the cards aren't available

2. It's only been tested 8 or 9 times

3. It probably hasn't faced the best decks available in the format

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 11:12 AM
They don't protect against mill. As they can be milled out like any other card. They protect against naturally decking out.

EmraldArcher
10-11-2013, 11:14 AM
They don't protect against mill. As they can be milled out like any other card. They protect against naturally decking out.

They can if your escalation card is an instant and they only have sorcery speed mill.

Juve
10-11-2013, 11:25 AM
and there is no instant escalation cards yet right? so at least in set 1 esc cards wont protect u against mill

he use also the 0/1 for 3 with invicible and there is probably bug with her coz u can have more than one even tho she is unique, seems rly strong with all the removal blood has.

back to op, i was thinking about similar deck the minute i saw that goblin, just 4 exnction, 4 healing esc, 4 mill esc, and 4 either blood or blue draw spells.

jtatta
10-11-2013, 11:25 AM
You can see the games I played here:

http://www.twitch.tv/htp_jtatta/b/469143096

The games with the Demolisher deck are toward the end. (~59:00 mark, to make it easy)

EmraldArcher
10-11-2013, 11:31 AM
.

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 11:31 AM
They can if your escalation card is an instant and they only have sorcery speed mill.

What? They just mill it before you draw it on the next turn. The speed of the mill effect is irrelevant.

EDIT: Though I do see a window where an Quick Action escalation card could delay a mill loss in the last moments of a game, I don't see any sustainable solution that will ultimately prevent the decked-out loss.

Player 1 Mills
Player 2, as a reaction, plays QA Escalation card so as to put it back into the deck. As a result, it gets milled.

EmraldArcher
10-11-2013, 11:32 AM
..

EmraldArcher
10-11-2013, 11:41 AM
What? They just mill it before you draw it on the next turn. The speed of the mill effect is irrelevant.

EDIT: Though I do see a window where an Quick Action escalation card could delay a mill loss in the last moments of a game, I don't see any sustainable solution that will ultimately prevent the decked-out loss.

Player 1 Mills
Player 2, as a reaction, plays QA Escalation card so as to put it back into the deck. As a result, it gets milled.

You can't (in Magic) cast sorcery speed cards during the end step. So yes, the speed of the mill is VERY relevant if it works similar to the Magic rules.

Juve
10-11-2013, 11:51 AM
mill champ charge power druing eot, after that non exist esc cards resolve ?

like in wowtcg u could use effect that only work on yourn turn with instant speed

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 01:17 PM
You can't (in Magic) cast sorcery speed cards during the end step. So yes, the speed of the mill is VERY relevant if it works similar to the Magic rules.

I'm still not following. How is the end step relevant? When the deck is milled past all the cards, the game is over at the next gain of priority. This would indicate the only window is to play an escalation card in response to a mill effect, which would in turn put the escalation card into the deck to BE MILLED.

guildwarsnrhk
10-11-2013, 01:33 PM
No. yesterday puts cards back in their hand. Then they have to discard generally.

guildwarsnrhk
10-11-2013, 01:34 PM
I take the 1/1 worker bot to chump. the 1 card is irrelevant

Juve
10-11-2013, 01:47 PM
No. yesterday puts cards back in their hand. Then they have to discard generally.

why u assume they will have to discard them ? unless your opp play bunny deck u will probably not make ppl discard anything most of the time, coz by turn 5 they will probably have like 1-3 cards in hand, and if all u want is to make them discard troops that were in play why dont just destroy them with exnction turn earlier and be sure they wont come back. yesterday could be good against invicible guys but they will just come back next turn.

LargoLaGrande
10-11-2013, 02:14 PM
I'm still not following. How is the end step relevant? When the deck is milled past all the cards, the game is over at the next gain of priority. This would indicate the only window is to play an escalation card in response to a mill effect, which would in turn put the escalation card into the deck to BE MILLED.

Is that how it's working in Hex? I was under the impression that you don't lose until you try to draw from an empty deck (because I'm still basing everything on MTG). That lets you cast your quick action escalation card after you've been milled fully to prevent yourself from losing on your next draw step.

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 03:17 PM
I'm under the impression that if you mill past 0, that -1 moment triggers the state-based lose action. Am I incorrect in this?

vulture27
10-11-2013, 03:32 PM
I'm under the impression that if you mill past 0, that -1 moment triggers the state-based lose action. Am I incorrect in this?

Thats not how it works in Magic. I have no clue if it should/should not, is/is not working that way in the Hex Alpha.

bangari
10-11-2013, 04:27 PM
You only lose when you draw and there is no library. Saw it on a recorded match.

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 04:46 PM
Ah, well in that case, I understand the quick action escalation card always saving you now. My bad.

bangari
10-11-2013, 06:10 PM
Actually it might not work. Chronic madness can force a 3 card bury on opponent. Does anyone know if it triggle defeat?

Statistically, this deck works out pretty well for what it is, but its still not that bad

chance of you drawing demented by turn 3 (around 50%) * chance of opponent has no counterspells on hand to disrupt you* opponent can't kill you in the average 1-4 turns needed to kill them after demented is out.

Plus, i can see it becoming a lot less useful in a best of 3 + sideboard enabled situation. People will either just start countering it or modify their deck to increase aggro speed.

When people start making competitive decks after the honeymoon period, i find it hard to believe that the game won't end before turn 7-8 (or even 6) most of the time, which is aprox how long you need before milling him out. From what i've seen, it seems like just knowing to use counterspell (i know its not in there yet) on their Yesterday to prevent bounce might be enough to give you sufficient time to kill them.

HyenaNipples
10-11-2013, 07:16 PM
When people start making competitive decks after the honeymoon period, i find it hard to believe that the game won't end before turn 7-8 (or even 6) most of the time, which is aprox how long you need before milling him out. From what i've seen, it seems like just knowing to use counterspell (i know its not in there yet) on their Yesterday to prevent bounce might be enough to give you sufficient time to kill them.

I initially thought this would be a very fast game, too. But really, its more a case of really crappy decks being made. I think once people start making better decks, things will even out, and we will see the game time average steadily lengthen.

bangari
10-11-2013, 07:46 PM
I initially thought this would be a very fast game, too. But really, its more a case of really crappy decks being made. I think once people start making better decks, things will even out, and we will see the game time average steadily lengthen.

Not really.

As people start making things more competitive, Aggro and midrang start ending games faster and faster. The extending of average game turns, if it happens, would come from control matchups as the number of control deck increases (they are more diff to build).

So at the end of the day, aggro and midrange gets faster, control gets slower, overall average speed might get slower due to control matchups, but its not an accurate reflection of whats happening.

As far as matchups with this deck goes, it will fail against aggro and midrange as those get faster. Against control it doesn't really matter (assuming there are more than 1 way to counter spells...).

standard mtg's speed had always been around 5-8 turns (6-7 median), i can see no real reason why hex would be much slower.

guildwarsnrhk
10-11-2013, 10:53 PM
why u assume they will have to discard them ? unless your opp play bunny deck u will probably not make ppl discard anything most of the time, coz by turn 5 they will probably have like 1-3 cards in hand, and if all u want is to make them discard troops that were in play why dont just destroy them with exnction turn earlier and be sure they wont come back. yesterday could be good against invicible guys but they will just come back next turn.

Extinction is not a quickaction. Therefore not good. You need to be able to return cards such as the Ancestor 1 drop at your EOT so that they do not trigger and add cards to their deck.

guildwarsnrhk
10-11-2013, 10:54 PM
Actually it might not work. Chronic madness can force a 3 card bury on opponent. Does anyone know if it triggle defeat?

Statistically, this deck works out pretty well for what it is, but its still not that bad

chance of you drawing demented by turn 3 (around 50%) * chance of opponent has no counterspells on hand to disrupt you* opponent can't kill you in the average 1-4 turns needed to kill them after demented is out.

Plus, i can see it becoming a lot less useful in a best of 3 + sideboard enabled situation. People will either just start countering it or modify their deck to increase aggro speed.

When people start making competitive decks after the honeymoon period, i find it hard to believe that the game won't end before turn 7-8 (or even 6) most of the time, which is aprox how long you need before milling him out. From what i've seen, it seems like just knowing to use counterspell (i know its not in there yet) on their Yesterday to prevent bounce might be enough to give you sufficient time to kill them.

It does trigger defeat. I've done it multiple times. The counterspell card isnt released so I'm just having fun.

Juve
10-12-2013, 02:32 AM
Extinction is not a quickaction. Therefore not good. You need to be able to return cards such as the Ancestor 1 drop at your EOT so that they do not trigger and add cards to their deck.

u dont need quick action for that, dont you? imo yesterday could be good in mana destorying deck, sapp, ruby probably, so opp wont be able to just replay all troops.

bangari
10-12-2013, 05:22 AM
Extinction is not a quickaction. Therefore not good. You need to be able to return cards such as the Ancestor 1 drop at your EOT so that they do not trigger and add cards to their deck.

On the other hand, extinction kills ancestor, not allowing them to drop it next turn again and again.

either way, most of the time cards like ancestor are not an issue. They can't use it to survive ad infinitum as they could with escalation. The created cards have draw effects that will lose them the game.

The benefit of extinction is that its 3 mana, which means you can afford to get counterspelled once even if you destroyed all resources at 5.

Specific cases where one is superior to the other exist for both cards, but overall extinction seems to be the better choice.

EmraldArcher
10-12-2013, 09:52 AM
Extintion is not 3 mana.

bangari
10-14-2013, 09:24 PM
Extintion is not 3 mana.


don't now why i though it was. Either way, like i said before, both are better against specific cards. Just ignore the part about counterspells.