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nicosharp
10-13-2013, 09:37 AM
I expect criticism for this early post, but wanted to get some thinking going around this card. Noting I say below has a professional card players credibility or a card designers credibility, it is just my early reactions to the card. With that said, if you are still interested glancing below, please feel free to read and share your thoughts.
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I've seen a number of decks using this card, as I have as well. The ability to thin your deck to the point of being able to top-deck into pretty much whatever you want is insanely powerful. I feel that his printed power for a 5 drop may need to be revisited.

This is in light of both mill effects and resource removal not being as main stream in set 1, and for most decks the win condition after facing this top deck control are few and far between. Do players need to side-board mill and resource destruction to play around this, and would that even be enough?

Not saying I know everything in the short few days I have played, but I can sense there will be power level issues with the current card due to interactions with cards like Murder and Extinction in blood to totally control the board while getting to their top-deck state.

I will provide some 'thinking out-loud' suggestions:
#1 - Move Demented Demolishers to ruby, as a ruby card. This does quite a few things. It plays into the thematic of ruby resource destruction (similar to MTG's red land destruction). Red still has decent board control in heatwave, but does not provide extinction or murder. Making it a bit harder to splash pure removal, and making it impossible to play blood + diamond that combos well for life-gain / board control. Ruby also lacks reliable draw, like blood has in pact of pain(probably not the best idea as it also helps rush decks push out more wins through top deck burn)

#2 - Change the threshold cost to a more mono requirement - like 3 or 4 threshold. This moves away from splashing diamond or other cards that can dip into life gain for survival.

#3 - Change Demented Demolishers printed ability to "void half of the current resources in your deck". This is still a very powerful effect, but limits the amount of top-decking blow-out wins after the 5 drop. This also promotes the use of additional Demented Demolishers being played to further thin.

#4 - Increase the cards cost to 6 or 7.

Corpselocker
10-13-2013, 09:53 AM
Based on the full set that was teased out of the alpha code, mill is getting even more help.

I do love the demolisher. It is the cornerstone of my current favorite deck. Sometimes, though, I hold him after five shards because I need another turn of champ power or the game requires me to use an X cost spell as a win condition. Adding one more to the cost will keep me from making the mistake of playing him to early ;)

HyenaNipples
10-13-2013, 09:54 AM
Agreed. I became worried about this card when I read the first deck-type featuring it.

I think the card eliminates the need for input from the other player- creating one of those "un-fun" scenarios that CZE staff hope to avoid. There are few counters to the strategy, and when it's used, the opposing player has very few options to answer- and not all the colors even have the capability of countering it.

I've watched Jtatta play this deck quite a bit, and generally, once he gets the Demented Demolisher onto the field, he says "I basically win, there is nothing the opponent can do, really." And he is correct. He rarely loses, if ever, with a Demolisher deck. The card is a problem.

Perhaps if the card returned all resources when it died- like a sort of temporary exile effect. I could see that being more balanced.

nicosharp
10-13-2013, 09:58 AM
Perhaps if the card returned all resources when it died- like a sort of temporary exile effect. I could see that being more balanced.
Amazing idea. Would be a crazy reshuffling nightmare if this was a non-digital game and that was the cards effect.

Edit: I do know the card removing all of your resources is suppose to seem like a good and a bad thing, but it only plays in constructed as a good thing.

murmeli
10-13-2013, 10:06 AM
First idea in my mind is that maybe people should wait for all the cards before starting to change them.

There is new card next week that people want to change.

If this game develops like mtg, there will be more mill, resource destruction, blue will have controll and so on...

HyenaNipples
10-13-2013, 10:11 AM
First idea in my mind is that maybe people should wait for all the cards before starting to change them.

There is new card next week that people want to change. And so on.

I'm not sure you understand the ramification of this card. Unless every color is getting its own version of Countermagic (which they are not), there is no way to stop the Demented Demolisher. Unless every color is getting resource destroy (which they are not), then there is no way to counter the strategy after the effect unless you are playing Ruby.

Milling is a dubious counter, at best. And the moment The Fate Rack becomes a sideboard staple, we'll know we are in a strange place.

nicosharp
10-13-2013, 10:12 AM
First idea in my mind is that maybe people should wait for all the cards before starting to change them.

There is new card next week that people want to change. And so on.
I feel that it is much better to raise concerns in early alpha than wait for cards to be locked in for beta.

It is very apparent that they have continually been iterating set one even after spoiling cards (Doppelgadget previously created copies of anything in play at the beginning of each turn. / Technical Genius (was Journeyman Technician) / Archmage Wrenlocke previously reduced ability costs / etc.)

We all want the game to be good, and I will be fine if this card and all cards remain the same, but it is also not hard for me to realize when playing when something is a lot higher on the power curve. Again, just raising a concern, not asking for anything. When I raise concerns, I like to give potential solutions. It's a professional courtesy I try to give anyone.

RCDv57
10-13-2013, 10:30 AM
Perhaps if the card returned all resources when it died- like a sort of temporary exile effect. I could see that being more balanced.

+1 for this idea. Maybe change it to something like "If you draw a resource, void it. Then draw a card"
That way demolisher turns into a creature who is actively doing something vs a high powered one shot spell.

keroko
10-13-2013, 10:33 AM
its begging for an answer in a 'bury opponents deck until next resource drawn' kinda card. that'd make it extraordinarily risky.

nylian
10-13-2013, 10:37 AM
I agree that this card can be very OP in the right deck.

Not only is it the issue with always top-decking something relevant, but escalation cards become exceedingly powerful when you only have 10-20 cards left in your deck. This isn't relevant only to diamond, as both ruby and sapphire have escalation cards that will quickly get out of control when there are so few cards left.

The best suggestion I have seen here would be the one where it removes all resources while it's in play, then puts them back when he dies.

As far as the argument of "omg this is alpha stuff will change." Duh, no joke stuff is going to change, but it's going to change because both we, the alpha testers, and crypto, identify the problems. Whether that be bugs or unbalanced cards.

Khazrakh
10-13-2013, 10:38 AM
I have to agree on this card. When I first saw it I was like "nah, much too dangerous, not playable". But when you look at the cards we have seen in set 1 there really isn't too much that could go wrong for you after you voided all your resources: Wild, Blood and Diamond can't do anything about it and even Rubys answers are very limited. Demolition is no card you'd want to play in most decks and even if you did, you'd need to have at least two of them after Demented Demolisher hit the board to really have an impact. The only color that has some answers is Sapphire with several cost increasing bounces and countermagic.

This card might get balanced out all by itself in some sets when we see more cards to counter it, but right now I'd say it's too strong of an effect. Maybe you could change the effect to "Whenever you draw a ressource card: Void that card. You lose 1 life. Draw a card." That way you'd have to keep the Demolisher on the board to take effect and the life loss would be a small drawback it would still need in my opinion.

nicosharp
10-13-2013, 10:48 AM
This card might get balanced out all by itself in some sets when we see more cards to counter it, but right now I'd say it's too strong of an effect.

Nail on head.

This is my thought. If this card was moved to set 3, or block 2, it might be perfectly scaled. Just feels wrongly placed in set 1 for its power level.

EmraldArcher
10-13-2013, 11:04 AM
Pretty ridiculous to be calling for a nerf when people don't even have access to all the cards from the set yet.

nicosharp
10-13-2013, 11:22 AM
Pretty ridiculous to be calling for a nerf when people don't even have access to all the cards from the set yet.
Will be really curious to see what they could possibly reveal that would change my mind? It has to be several cards with specific effects.

Jyndreytu
10-13-2013, 11:24 AM
Most of the cards that can interact with this particular combo aren't in the alpha yet. There is no reason to be alarmed right now.

Also if you're worried about everyone playing this card, I wouldn't be. I would estimate I've played around 50 games on the alpha, and have only played against this card once. I lost, thought the idea was cute, and I moved on.

You only need to worry about a card if it completely warps the entire metagame, and it also generates very high win percentages. Since we don't have a proper metagame right now since we don't have all the cards, coupled with the fact we can't use sideboards right now, don't worry too much.

Kamino72
10-13-2013, 11:24 AM
Perhaps if the card returned all resources when it died- like a sort of temporary exile effect. I could see that being more balanced.
Nice idea.


+1 for this idea. Maybe change it to something like "If you draw a resource, void it. Then draw a card"
That way demolisher turns into a creature who is actively doing something vs a high powered one shot spell.
Nice idea too.


Pretty ridiculous to be calling for a nerf when people don't even have access to all the cards from the set yet.
This thread is top quality, with valid arguments. Nobody is whining for nerfing, so please respect. Furthermore, there is nothing to nerf when nothing is yet written in marble.

UDareUTake
10-13-2013, 11:38 AM
I guess now more people will know the actual decklist for these 2 variation now,

Back to the discussion, until we see the rest of the cards left in set 1, only time will tell what other counters we'll have against this strategy.

eSquared
10-13-2013, 11:42 AM
It's a powerful effect, but I don't think it's near game-breaking. It doesn't create any board position and isn't an answer to common threats. It isn't a win condition by itself, and additional copies in your deck are completely redundant (so you're encouraged to take fewer copies, which means you're less likely to see them). It's a solid piece, and you can argue that because it fits so many decks it might eliminate choice and create too much homogeneity, but not game-breaking. You're incorrect about mill decks not being mainstream in this set; they're going to be extremely common from the get go (don't let alpha fool you, some of the mill cards aren't included yet).

Orcao
10-13-2013, 12:24 PM
Will be really curious to see what they could possibly reveal that would change my mind? It has to be several cards with specific effects.

(Gems not yet in Alpha) 3 (4? I forget), 2 Sapphire Threshhold This Troop is Unblockable, Major Socket + Ruby Gem 3 (Whenever this troop deals combat damage to an opponent, that opponent loses {-1/-1})

(In Alpha) 3, 1 Ruby, Target Champion loses {-1/-1}

(NYI) Counter Magic

(In Alpha) Chronic Madness

(In Alpha =P)Winning before turn 6 (assuming no resource ramping, this is the first turn the opponent will see the benefit of demolisher)

Ruby and Sapphire seem to have answers to it already, with better ones coming. If the resources were sent to graveyard, instead of being voided the counters/combos would change a bit. On the plus side, High Tomb Lord becomes crazy if played directly after. On the negative side, the artifact that will delay milling would also counter demolisher.

It's also worth mentioning that the mill decks currently in Alpha pale in comparison to what they will be once the full set is released.

Malakili
10-13-2013, 12:35 PM
Well, first of all, Cryptozoic isn't really going to be doing balancing on released cards. Now, we don't know if this applies to alpha or not, but I suspect we are going to see extremely minimal balance changes - possibly none. Furthermore, if the card proves to be truly OP in a particular environment, then it can be banned.

Lastly, even under the assumption that they will make changes to cards in alpha (one I'm not making personally), it is impossible to have any kind of meaningful balance discussion without the entire set being available.

Drake6k
10-13-2013, 12:36 PM
I don't see how this card is overpowered. 5 cost for a 3/3 that lets you void all resources from your deck? Am I missing something? There is a small amount of risk involved, but the effect is optional and usually beneficial.

A lot of games are decided by the 4 resource mark; even if you hit 5 and drops this guy, it doesn't even pay off until you start drawing cards, and even then it only pays off if you would otherwise draw a resource card.


This is in light of both mill effects and resource removal not being as main stream in set 1, and for most decks the win condition after facing this top deck control are few and far between.
About printing more resource removal: Magic R&D has changed their stance on land destruction and it's safe to assume that Cryptozoic is going to approach resource destruction very carefully. It just isn't fun when someone makes you unable to play your cards.

Gwaer
10-13-2013, 12:49 PM
I love this card. I hope it doesn't change. I can foresee a lot of ways to play around it. But getting this guy out on turn 5 and watching your deck shrink to 12 is just phenomenal.

Corpselocker
10-13-2013, 02:06 PM
I'm with Gwaer again. I do love the card.

Maybe it needs a stronger blood threshold, though...

darkwonders
10-13-2013, 02:13 PM
I love this card. I hope it doesn't change. I can foresee a lot of ways to play around it. But getting this guy out on turn 5 and watching your deck shrink to 12 is just phenomenal.

If you're running enough mana to mill your own deck down to 12 after just 5 turns means this guy is heavily luck based to even get him out that quickly.

And for something to change the state of the game that quickly based on luck makes the game a whole lot less fun.

nicosharp
10-13-2013, 02:14 PM
I'm with Gwaer again. I do love the card.

Maybe it needs a stronger blood threshold, though...

It's an amazing card! I love it too.

Sorry, going back to my roots, but I did help devs balance league of legends prior to Riot hiring an entire team for those efforts. The hardest thing to do is admit something you love needs to be changed to bring more balance to the game you are playing.

I am glad I threw this out there, but like many say, only time will tell. I was honestly quite surprised by this cards power through play, but I do hope everyone that backed get a chance to play and see for themselves. Hopefully this can be revisited after the entire set is revealed and before beta starts.

Orcao
10-13-2013, 02:14 PM
If you're running enough mana to mill your own deck down to 12 after just 5 turns means this guy is heavily luck based to even get him out that quickly.

And for something to change the state of the game that quickly based on luck makes the game a whole lot less fun.
It's strategy. When you run a deck like that you tend to mulligan until you get a demolisher in your hand. It's also risk, since a deck like that doesn't do much before turn 5/6.

darkwonders
10-13-2013, 02:16 PM
It's strategy. When you run a deck like that you tend to mulligan until you get a demolisher in your hand. It's also risk, since a deck like that doesn't do much before turn 5/6.

You're just proving the point that you're basing your entire strategy on luck.

the more luck based win conditions that are in this game, the less fun it becomes.

Juve
10-13-2013, 02:24 PM
btw. we already now every pvp card form set 1

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28483

fail edit, delete pls

Juve
10-13-2013, 02:24 PM
btw. we already know every pvp card form set 1

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28483

SomeoneRandom
10-13-2013, 02:28 PM
I really don't think this is as powerful as it seems. In a control deck only having 5-7 resources out tends to not be enough, and in an aggro deck it is useful in making sure you get gas every turn, but it isn't gamebreaking. A decent start from an aggro deck can kill you before you get going, a control matchup will have countermagic and will win out by having access to more resources. Time will tell once the full set is out, but I really don't think they need to change this card at all.

Kami
10-13-2013, 02:55 PM
You also have to remember, all PvP cards currently are supposed to be balanced for Draft. I have a feeling this plays a huge role in the co-ordination of some of these cards.

The other issue is that we're still missing dozens and dozens of cards. This may be a great theory card now, but later? You'll have to pull five resources out of your hat before you can even play Demented Demolisher at the moment.

Orcao
10-13-2013, 02:57 PM
You're just proving the point that you're basing your entire strategy on luck.

the more luck based win conditions that are in this game, the less fun it becomes.
I'm honestly not sure how to reply to this at this point. It's a card game, luck is their very basis. DD decks are combo decks that don't start seeing benefits until turn 6, which is late. The advantage of a low-card DD deck is you go all in on getting DD on turn 5. The chance of getting DD by turn 5 while allowing for multiple mulligans is actually quite high (I believe on par with the chance of the average 22 resource deck not getting mana screwed). The highest risk/luck part of running the deck is actually based on your opponent having what they need to win by turn 6. This is a risk that most decks run ("Will my opponents deck stabilize first? / Will my opponents deck counter mine?"), though others will be more likely to have answers to the opponents cards.

DD Decks aren't any more "luck based" than other decks. If you're arguing that a DD deck is inconsistent, that just means the deck is bad, not that it takes away from the game...

Malakili
10-13-2013, 03:02 PM
You also have to remember, all PvP cards currently are supposed to be balanced for Draft. I have a feeling this plays a huge role in the co-ordination of some of these cards.

And if anything is truly format breaking for constructed they can ban it. All this balance discussion is pointless.

darkwonders
10-13-2013, 03:29 PM
I'm honestly not sure how to reply to this at this point. It's a card game, luck is their very basis. DD decks are combo decks that don't start seeing benefits until turn 6, which is late. The advantage of a low-card DD deck is you go all in on getting DD on turn 5. The chance of getting DD by turn 5 while allowing for multiple mulligans is actually quite high (I believe on par with the chance of the average 22 resource deck not getting mana screwed). The highest risk/luck part of running the deck is actually based on your opponent having what they need to win by turn 6. This is a risk that most decks run ("Will my opponents deck stabilize first? / Will my opponents deck counter mine?"), though others will be more likely to have answers to the opponents cards.

DD Decks aren't any more "luck based" than other decks. If you're arguing that a DD deck is inconsistent, that just means the deck is bad, not that it takes away from the game...

Any deck that relies on Mulligans to get that one card to win is a luck based deck.

Malakili
10-13-2013, 04:30 PM
If it wins enough to a legitimate competitive deck then either 1) people will learn to deal with it or 2) it will be deemed broken and a key card banned.

Keep in mind that when you are dealing with a best of 3 format WITH sideboards, a lot of these shenanigans get shut right down.

The game will never ever ever be balanced for constructed 1 off games with random people, nor should they worry about such a thing.

Corpselocker
10-13-2013, 05:11 PM
I use the card, but never mulliganed for one. It augments my deck, but it isn't required to be pulled to win.

ossuary
10-13-2013, 08:09 PM
And if anything is truly format breaking for constructed they can ban it. All this balance discussion is pointless.

The balance discussion is absolutely not pointless. It may be a tad premature, but it is never pointless to discuss possible issues. Even if you happen to disagree with the OP, they are not "wrong" for bringing something up they have noticed.

Also, to clarify, there will absolutely be balance changes during alpha and continuing into beta (you mentioned in an earlier post that you didn't think this would happen), up until the time they feel everything is stable and ready to be locked down for good, at which point they will issue the kickstarter rewards, and no PVP card will ever be adjusted again (only banned, if needed).

SomeoneRandom
10-13-2013, 08:13 PM
The balance discussion is absolutely not pointless. It may be a tad premature, but it is never pointless to discuss possible issues. Even if you happen to disagree with the OP, they are not "wrong" for bringing something up they have noticed.

Also, to clarify, there will absolutely be balance changes during alpha and continuing into beta (you mentioned in an earlier post that you didn't think this would happen), up until the time they feel everything is stable and ready to be locked down for good, at which point they will issue the kickstarter rewards, and no PVP card will ever be adjusted again (only banned, if needed).

The problem with balance discussions is honestly they should be nonexistent for this type of game. I think most people are in the mind set of this being an online game that has a nerf cycle. News flash, it isn't. This is the type of game where metagames evolve around available card pools, if a card or deck is too strong people will come up with decks that beat it. In its most degenerate times the biggest % of a deck in standard is somewhere around 30-50% of the meta at big tournaments, and times when cards were too strong (Jace/Stoneforge) they got banned and it took a LOT for those to be banned.

Every card/deck has weaknesses, find it, exploit it and you will be successful =]

Redbeastmage
10-13-2013, 08:16 PM
Honestly don't think this needs a nerf, since you need to draw it at the exact right time, and if your opponent plays any resource denial after you're boned. If it proves to strong, maybe just make it graveyard the resources instead of voiding, so cosmic totem can be a good answer.

RCDv57
10-13-2013, 08:31 PM
Honestly don't think this needs a nerf, since you need to draw it at the exact right time, and if your opponent plays any resource denial after you're boned. If it proves to strong, maybe just make it graveyard the resources instead of voiding, so cosmic totem can be a good answer.

It has to void them in order to prevent shenanigans with High Tome Lord.

schild
10-13-2013, 08:46 PM
I see we're judging cards in an incomplete meta.

Bravo.

funktion
10-13-2013, 09:03 PM
C'mon guys. Not only is the card totally fine, but calling for nerfs on cards when the game has barely become accessible is pretty loose. Sure demolisher is strong, I've been playing it quite a bit myself, but it's not the only strong card by any means. The set isn't fully available and the game has barely been out. Let it breath a bit more, right now these are just knee-jerk reactions.

There are still a ton more decks to be built and most people are only taking game 1 pre-sideboard into consideration. Not to mention that Demented Demolisher decks are still very vulnerable to a few cards / decks, that's what a meta is, let it form.

Demented decks have a great late game / inevitability, but they can also fall apart fairly easily.

nicosharp
10-13-2013, 09:45 PM
C'mon guys. Not only is the card totally fine, but calling for nerfs on cards when the game has barely become accessible is pretty loose. Sure demolisher is strong, I've been playing it quite a bit myself, but it's not the only strong card by any means. The set isn't fully available and the game has barely been out. Let it breath a bit more, right now these are just knee-jerk reactions.
Leave it on the table, and talk about it later. Cards will be discussed like this when Alpha has long ended. Discussion does not hurt. This is a digital TCG, and things will change at a rate that is much greater than the paper counterparts. No card game is without faults. This type of discussion is healthy in any phase of development / release. Nothing needs to be changed, as stated many times already.

Leingod
10-13-2013, 10:27 PM
There's actually a ton of mill cards that are in the unofficial set 1 spoiler but are not yet in play for alpha. Along with things like Sabotage and Lancashire.

Berkhtar
10-14-2013, 12:40 AM
Furthermore, if the card proves to be truly OP in a particular environment, then it can be banned.


I do not see this card being a problem for tournaments. Most tournaments will be draft and most certainly you will not draft a combination: demolisher + escalation cards worth playing.

ShadowTycho
10-14-2013, 01:09 AM
I like booby trapping these decks.

Gwaer
10-14-2013, 01:22 AM
There are lots of great counters to this deck. It's my baby, and I love it. However, sabotage is extremely good. So is mimic. You don't have to dip into blood, or weaken your deck but you can still benefit from their demolisher if you have all the sources you care to draw. Once counter spell is available, they'll likely only have one demolisher on tap. You counter that sucker and they'll likely be dead before they even think about seeing a second one. Omen of oblivion will also likely be a pretty strong counter by attacking their wincons. Generally any fast deck can be quite strong against them just on their own merits. Once the source destruction gem is available that and demolition are going to be extremely rough. Ember spire witch also dominates the life gain flavored kind. I like to keep them in reserve play a bunch of creatures to bait out their murders and extinctions then keep one on the board for late game after they demolish.

joseph5185
10-14-2013, 03:01 AM
When this card is coupled with 'escalation' cards ... things can get pretty out of control just based on the greatly increased percentage of drawing said cards.

However; on its own, it seems perfectly fine.

Though reading through this thread, I came up with booby trap being a solid answer...again because the chances of drawing said card is greatly increased.

I can certainly understand things "feeling" unbalanced or un-fun, but this is part of the fun and competitive nature IMO.

If you have enough passion for the game, you will not ONLY counter it, but come with your own clever schemes as well..

;)

SomeoneRandom
10-14-2013, 05:42 AM
I do not see this card being a problem for tournaments. Most tournaments will be draft and most certainly you will not draft a combination: demolisher + escalation cards worth playing.

I guess it depends on your definition of "tournament", I am sure there will be constructed queues just as much as there are draft queues. If we are using MTG as a standard then most real competitive tournaments will indeed be constructed. Especially since it is so easy online to queue up for limited I don't see them doing too many sealed tournaments.

Zer0
10-14-2013, 07:28 AM
Hey guys,

I think we're all stuck in that world of warcraft mindset, where the devs will listen obsessively to the loudest voices on the forums and try to create a perfectly balanced game. TCGs arent like that... there are broken cards and thats just the way it is. If a card is format warping and makes tournaments just a competition to see who can get their copy out first (jace), or if its such a staple that it appears in a huge amount of decks (skullclamp,umezawa's jitte), it will get banned.

However, DD isnt one of those cards. a 5 cost is already prohibitive for tournaments. If you're dropping a 5 cost in magic, it better be winning you the game pretty much right then, or very soon after. Or it should be giving you a big board advantage (thragtusk, blood baron of vizkopa, most planeswalkers). All DD does is give you an underpowered 5 drop in exchange for increasing the chances of a decent topdeck. You may as well put krark's thumb in there and make a coinflip deck at that point.

Also, i'd like to say that playing in a completely balanced game isnt fun at all. In the TCG world, theres a counter to everything, you just need to find it. And once that effective counter is found, the deck dies or sees little play. Thats just how it is.

darkwonders
10-14-2013, 07:33 AM
The reason why TCGs are like that is that it's really difficult to enforce changes to physical cards, making it easier to ban something that is indeed broken. Hex has no such restrictions as there is no way this could become a physical game. Therefore, it can be held to the standard of other online games in that it can be tweaked as necessary throughout its life.

Ebynfel
10-14-2013, 07:39 AM
I think he's really good. I, however, dont think he should void the cards, just drop them in the yard so the resources can be manipulated by an opponent perhaps, like shuffled back in with the rest of his yard with the artifact that does somesuch thing. Void I think is powerful, tossing them into the yard opens up more counterplay.

That's my .02 without actually playing yet, but I dont think he'll be too much of an issue when every card hits. Certain decks will love him in the midgame, some decks will not have room or threshold for him, etc etc.

SomeoneRandom
10-14-2013, 07:52 AM
The reason why TCGs are like that is that it's really difficult to enforce changes to physical cards, making it easier to ban something that is indeed broken. Hex has no such restrictions as there is no way this could become a physical game. Therefore, it can be held to the standard of other online games in that it can be tweaked as necessary throughout its life.

You are right that things CAN be changed easier in this format, however, that doesn't mean that it should be nerfed and changed constantly. When you look at this game from an investment standpoint it isn't just time, it is money. You can't build your collection for free and I know I would be really pissed if I dropped 80 bucks worth of money or cards to get a playset of something only to see it nerfed into the ground and losing my value. In a MOBA or MMO nerfs are the way to address things that are degenerate and ruin the game, in TCGs this is done by counters and evolving metas. We don't need nerfs... and honestly if they start a nerf cycle then they will lose a LOT of players because what is the point investing in a collection that just constantly loses value.


I think he's really good. I, however, dont think he should void the cards, just drop them in the yard so the resources can be manipulated by an opponent perhaps, like shuffled back in with the rest of his yard with the artifact that does somesuch thing. Void I think is powerful, tossing them into the yard opens up more counterplay.

That's my .02 without actually playing yet, but I dont think he'll be too much of an issue when every card hits. Certain decks will love him in the midgame, some decks will not have room or threshold for him, etc etc.

Voiding it actually makes it less powerful not more. Honestly if your counter to this card is shuffling them back into their deck, you will have a long road ahead of you. You are now 1:1ing yourself, while your opponent gets a 3/3 and using a card that is unplayable in every other circumstance. Letting the resources go to the discard allows a lot of interaction with future cards, currently we only have one card that uses the graveyard size, but there will be more possibilities and voiding the resources stops some imbalance in that sense.

Commoble
10-14-2013, 07:54 AM
The reason why TCGs are like that is that it's really difficult to enforce changes to physical cards, making it easier to ban something that is indeed broken. Hex has no such restrictions as there is no way this could become a physical game. Therefore, it can be held to the standard of other online games in that it can be tweaked as necessary throughout its life.

The Hex devs will not make any changes to cards after release.

http://hextcg.com/exclusives-treasure-and-mercenaries/


unlike cards (where there will be no modifying, only banning in tournament formats)

Berkhtar
10-14-2013, 08:51 AM
The Hex devs will not make any changes to cards after release.

http://hextcg.com/exclusives-treasure-and-mercenaries/

And that is the reason why the should change broken cards during their Beta-tests (or here Alpha). I hope they won't be so stupid to release a new set without having it tested before on a beta-server.

Vorpal
10-14-2013, 09:10 AM
C'mon guys. Not only is the card totally fine, but calling for nerfs on cards when the game has barely become accessible is pretty loose.

This is kind of a silly argument. It's better to make card adjustments in alpha than it is to wait until after release.

It is literally impossible to 'call for a nerf' in alpha. Please stop using such derogatory, loaded language.

There is literally zero harm in putting a potential problem card on the devs radar during alpha. That is a large reason why the alpha and beta stages even exist. They don't want to change cards after release, so things need to be as balanced as possible before release so they don't wind up having to ban too many cards.

Zer0
10-14-2013, 09:47 AM
The Hex devs will not make any changes to cards after release.

http://hextcg.com/exclusives-treasure-and-mercenaries/

Definitely a wise decision. Cards have value, changing them affects that value, and I know collectors dont appreciate that much.

nicosharp
10-14-2013, 09:57 AM
Let's all face the facts.

1. CZE is making a game that is designed for digital play, and MECHANICS THAT ONLY FUNCTION IN A DIGITAL TCG.
Hello... If the game ain't working yet for us, it ain't working yet for them, and the card interactions they may think were good in paper testing phases, work entirely differently digitally.

2. We are in Alpha, most of the cards are not released, and the game is not balanced yet. They are still making changes.

3. This is a TCG, but that does not mean it will function like every cardboard tcg set you have played, in that cards from the creators standpoint are balanced if they say so.. Sorry, it just isn't going to work that way in a fast moving digital community, that will find and break things the creators would have never thought of. I foresee them having a test server at some point, cause lets face it, they need some help.

4. This project is a pretty huge endeavor, and it needs to be done right. The bugs forum is just one avenue we can use to help. We have no control, but we can influence the game.

5. We need to be open minded to both the cards in question being perfectly fine, and also the potential that maybe everything given to us at face value still needs to be critiqued. Nothing needs to be changed, but it doesn't hurt to give a community perspective and baseline evaluation to cards that will soon effect competitive play and competitive deck construction.

Many of you have only mentioned Sapphire counters to Demolisher, when in fact, a big counter is Invincible units. I've seen the counters, I know a few others, and I like all the cards... I just see a potential design flaw, and question it. Don't get so defensive, as probably nothing will change.

Chark
10-14-2013, 09:57 AM
I've seen a number of decks using this card, as I have as well. The ability to thin your deck to the point of being able to top-deck into pretty much whatever you want is insanely powerful.

Thanks a lot Cory! (He was running this deck on Wednesday night against people--that's probably how this got started). We didn't think it was that great: it was very high risk, high reward.

OP: do you have a decklist for where you think Demolisher is too good?

nicosharp
10-14-2013, 10:53 AM
Thanks a lot Cory! (He was running this deck on Wednesday night against people--that's probably how this got started). We didn't think it was that great: it was very high risk, high reward.

OP: do you have a decklist for where you think Demolisher is too good?
I have two that were working quite well:

Sapphire / Blood - "Booby Mill":
4x Oracle Song
4x Chronic Madness
4x Booby Trap
4x Murder
4x Extinction
4x Demented Demolisher
4x Secret Laboratory
2x Pact of Pain
2-4x whatever you want (flock of seagulls, fate racks, 1 drop that creates 2/2 flights (but questionably makes the games longer), More control, maybe the artifact that voids)
28-26 shards

Diamond/Blood "Demented Suck":
4x Murder
4x Extinction
4x Demented Demolisher
4x Life Siphon
4x Eternal Youth
4x Inner Conflict
3x Pact of Pain
3x Secret Laboratory
2x Surge Mechanism
2x Hex Engine
2x Dwarven Turbine
24x Shards (or 26 cutting 1 extinction and 1 inner conflict)

NecroPleas
10-14-2013, 10:55 AM
I think the most interesting counter/interaction to this kind of card might be something we haven't seen yet. What if each color had a card that played off the void mechanic in a different way? These are just off the top of my head:


Diamond: constant: each player gains 1 life each turn for each of his opponent's voided cards

Wild: summon an X/X troop with crush, where X equals the number of opponent's voided cards

Blood: summon X 0/1 creatures with "When this troop dies, controller may search his deck for 1 resource and put it into his hand unless opponent pays 1 life". X equals the number of opponent's voided cards

Sapphire: target player draws X cards, where X equals the number of opponent's voided cards

Ruby: target creature gains either +X/+0 or +0/-X, until end of turn, where X equals the number of target opponent's voided cards


Personally, I'd like to see another layer of strategic decisions added to the void mechanic rather than nerfing it altogether.

Malakili
10-14-2013, 11:05 AM
It doesn't need to be changed...

Gwaer
10-14-2013, 11:19 AM
My favorite goblin deck is tri color.

I also made made a pretty god counter to goblin decks that hasn't lost yet. Looking for more people playing the so I can test it better.

Ebynfel
10-14-2013, 11:21 AM
Voiding it actually makes it less powerful not more. Honestly if your counter to this card is shuffling them back into their deck, you will have a long road ahead of you. You are now 1:1ing yourself, while your opponent gets a 3/3 and using a card that is unplayable in every other circumstance. Letting the resources go to the discard allows a lot of interaction with future cards, currently we only have one card that uses the graveyard size, but there will be more possibilities and voiding the resources stops some imbalance in that sense.
I said the yard increases potential counter play, and I believe that will remain the case. There will be cards that wipe yards. Will be. If he becomes part of a combo based on Gy size, the Gy will be targeted. Voiding prevents any future interaction. Removes them period. I think he is fine now, tbh, but as to how shuffling all this back in....the decks are running escalation. And drawing the cards thanks in big part to this guy. The whole reason this 3/3 troop is worth it is that it lets you draw heat more consistently. Shuffling them back doesn't counter 1 card, it helps counter an entire strategy. But personally, I am usually a fan of more potential interaction rather than less when it's possible.

nicosharp
10-14-2013, 11:29 AM
My favorite goblin deck is tri color.

I also made made a pretty god counter to goblin decks that hasn't lost yet. Looking for more people playing the so I can test it better.
A bit off-topic, but I see your point, about decks having counters. That is always the case, or should always be the case.
Are you using Gas Troll? He is awesome.

EmraldArcher
10-14-2013, 11:40 AM
Are you using Gas Troll? He is awesome.

One of the top 3 1 drops in the game.

SomeoneRandom
10-14-2013, 11:59 AM
I said the yard increases potential counter play, and I believe that will remain the case. There will be cards that wipe yards. Will be. If he becomes part of a combo based on Gy size, the Gy will be targeted. Voiding prevents any future interaction. Removes them period. I think he is fine now, tbh, but as to how shuffling all this back in....the decks are running escalation. And drawing the cards thanks in big part to this guy. The whole reason this 3/3 troop is worth it is that it lets you draw heat more consistently. Shuffling them back doesn't counter 1 card, it helps counter an entire strategy. But personally, I am usually a fan of more potential interaction rather than less when it's possible.

Putting them in the graveyard offers 1 counter-play interaction... Shuffling them back in. This card is an enabler, generally enablers sit under the radar until something else comes out that puts them over the edge. I really don't see the reason to open that can of worms just to let the shuffling effect slightly stop it. Nobody is building decks that RELY on this guy, the effect isn't stellar enough to warrant it... It just improves future draws in mid duration games. It is not nearly good enough to even warrant talking about a nerf, much less a ban.

Chark
10-14-2013, 02:23 PM
I have two that were working quite well:

Sapphire / Blood - "Booby Mill":
4x Oracle Song
4x Chronic Madness
4x Booby Trap
4x Murder
4x Extinction
4x Demented Demolisher
4x Secret Laboratory
2x Pact of Pain
2-4x whatever you want (flock of seagulls, fate racks, 1 drop that creates 2/2 flights (but questionably makes the games longer), More control, maybe the artifact that voids)
28-26 shards

Diamond/Blood "Demented Suck":
4x Murder
4x Extinction
4x Demented Demolisher
4x Life Siphon
4x Eternal Youth
4x Inner Conflict
3x Pact of Pain
3x Secret Laboratory
2x Surge Mechanism
2x Hex Engine
2x Dwarven Turbine
24x Shards (or 26 cutting 1 extinction and 1 inner conflict)

Aren't both of these just decent control decks that get better by turn X (probably not on 5) by removing the remainder of the resources they have not drawn yet? I would say that these are demented demolisher decks. He is just a good card in a control deck.

Btw, blood/sapphire builds are only going to get better when you have access to counter spell equivalents. But I think that will definitely take the deck away from "combo deck that takes advantage of demented demolisher" and to "control deck that removes its late dead draws."

nicosharp
10-14-2013, 02:46 PM
You asked for examples. I gave you examples. I am just one dude, testing a card.

There are probably much better decks out there. I think Gwaer may have posted one, or you could check the strategy forum. I've seen other successful builds played against me. Demented Demolisher is a "control" card, as it gives the player using it no dead draws after it is played. (If built correctly). In both examples you can point out dead draws, but you mitigate that with additional card draw and cycling with secret Laboratory/etc. Of course the one card can be played around, and may eventually be countered in more ways going forward, but if 1 does hit play, it puts the player in an amazing board state, allowing them one or more answers to what you play every turn.

lamaros
10-14-2013, 05:15 PM
The alpha is not a balance test.

nicosharp
10-14-2013, 05:27 PM
The alpha is not a balance test.

Had me fooled. Did you see the bug forum?

I am being a troll and I know what you mean, but comments like that are just as facetious.

Pezzle
10-14-2013, 07:53 PM
Not really, lamaros is serious and I happen to agree. This is not about balance in the slightest.

EmraldArcher
10-14-2013, 08:11 PM
Not really, lamaros is serious and I happen to agree. This is not about balance in the slightest.

That's one of the dumbest things ever said.

Pezzle
10-14-2013, 08:21 PM
Hey, that can be a fun new game! I can say that about your poast and you can say that about mine!

The hex alpha is about creating a stable client and getting mechanics working. This card is OP arguments on an internet forum? Better things to worry about.

Ebynfel
10-14-2013, 08:34 PM
Putting them in the graveyard offers 1 counter-play interaction... Shuffling them back in. This card is an enabler, generally enablers sit under the radar until something else comes out that puts them over the edge. I really don't see the reason to open that can of worms just to let the shuffling effect slightly stop it. Nobody is building decks that RELY on this guy, the effect isn't stellar enough to warrant it... It just improves future draws in mid duration games. It is not nearly good enough to even warrant talking about a nerf, much less a ban.

I believe I said "Potential" counterplay. In the future, having the resources in the yard may benefit players on either side of the table and be interacted with in future sets. By voiding, interaction is removed.

Again, I think the card is fine as is. I just think if it was changed, that that would be a good way to change it taking the long view. And again, my thinking is that I think interaction is better than no interaction more often than not. If the card ended up being an enabler to effects that either void the resource for a bonus, or void gy cards for damage, etc, then the long view would then be providing a good card with utility long into the future. And also open up avenues for countering, stopping, or otherwise making that strategy less effective, introducing meaningful interaction in future sets.

Commoble
10-14-2013, 08:41 PM
That's one of the dumbest things ever said.

What? He's right. The alpha isn't a balance test, it's a bugfix test.

Malakili
10-14-2013, 08:46 PM
That's one of the dumbest things ever said.

Hyperbole aside, you shouldn't count on a lot of balance changes in alpha. Regardless, posting about balance less than a week into alpha testing a buggy, incomplete set makes absolutely no sense. Frankly, I suspect most of the balance posts on this forum so far are people just losing to something, getting upset (which is understandable, losing sucks sometimes, even in an informal environment like this) and go and post on the forums. Then other people jump on the bandwagon and we end up with a meandering useless thread like this.

At the very least you MUST agree that we can't actually judge balance on any of the cards until we have the full set to play. This whole thread is much ado about nothing and just bad habits from MMORPG testing seeping into testing a card game, which is entirely different beast.

bangari
10-14-2013, 08:49 PM
Had me fooled. Did you see the bug forum?

I am being a troll and I know what you mean, but comments like that are just as facetious.

Really? You actually believe an alpha with 1/3 of the cards (including all the anti-magic control staples) not implemented is a balance test?

how exactly is it facetious? do you not understand the difference between testing for bugs and testing of balance? How dumb does someone have to be to not be able to tell the 2 apart?


That's one of the dumbest things ever said.

Yes, obviously everyone thinking you can't do any balance testing when you don't even have all the cards implemented are dumb. Its clear as day that the results testing an incomplete card set will give you the same results as testing the complete version.

nicosharp
10-14-2013, 09:04 PM
Really? You actually believe an alpha with 1/3 of the cards (including all the anti-magic control staples) not implemented is a balance test?

how exactly is it facetious? do you not understand the difference between testing for bugs and testing of balance? How dumb does someone have to be to not be able to tell the 2 apart?
How dumb does someone have to be to not be able to tell what "I am being a troll" means?

EmraldArcher
10-14-2013, 09:04 PM
Saying you shouldn't be testing balance right now when all the cards aren't even coded and saying that Alpha
is not about balance in the slightest are two very different things and the latter is egregiously dumb.

Quasari
10-14-2013, 09:09 PM
Saying you shouldn't be testing balance right now when all the cards aren't even coded and saying that Alpha are two very different things and the latter is egregiously dumb.

You can't tell balance without the full set cardset or knowing the full block/two blocks. Balance is for internal testers. We can't even get an idea what the environments going to be and calling for bans/nerfs before we have a full working implementation of set 1 is shortsighted.

EmraldArcher
10-14-2013, 09:11 PM
1136

Quasari
10-14-2013, 09:19 PM
1136
Explain why our input on balance or even thinking about it right now has any significance.

Ebynfel
10-14-2013, 09:33 PM
I dont see what the conversations about the balance really hurt. There's a subforum for bug reports and this here is a discussion about the current iteration of the alpha. Regardless, this forum is pretty much the place for these discussions to be had and, honestly, they're not a bad discussion TO have. It's discussion. About the product we are all seeing if not playing, in the appropriate forum for said discussions. Do they have immediate significance? Of course not, but it's not like they aren't meaningful in any way and shouldn't, by someone's definition, be happening.

TomoyaNagase
10-14-2013, 10:58 PM
And see not a day later it has become the meta and wins nearly always!

Truhls
10-14-2013, 11:51 PM
And see not a day later it has become the meta and wins nearly always!

unless you play green, like i do. At which point you destroy everything they hold dear, and then gain life from it.

lamaros
10-15-2013, 01:48 AM
Saying you shouldn't be testing balance right now when all the cards aren't even coded and saying that Alpha are two very different things and the latter is egregiously dumb.

When all the bugs are gone and features in it'll be beta, not alpha.

And there still won't be any balance testing anything like this thread would suggest.

Ginaz
10-15-2013, 02:44 AM
1136

You do realize that, as of now, not all of the cards are available to test in the alpha? Once they're all released and people have played them, then you can wring your hands and worry about "balance".

bangari
10-15-2013, 03:42 AM
I dont see what the conversations about the balance really hurt. There's a subforum for bug reports and this here is a discussion about the current iteration of the alpha. Regardless, this forum is pretty much the place for these discussions to be had and, honestly, they're not a bad discussion TO have. It's discussion. About the product we are all seeing if not playing, in the appropriate forum for said discussions. Do they have immediate significance? Of course not, but it's not like they aren't meaningful in any way and shouldn't, by someone's definition, be happening.

Any conclusions drawn using a partial set is misleading . Gameplay expectations and tests based on a partial set is going to be wrong. there is no 2 ways about it.

If you can't see how discussion based on misleading and wrong info hurts instead of helps, I'm not sure how to persuade you.


Saying you shouldn't be testing balance right now when all the cards aren't even coded and saying that Alpha are two very different things and the latter is egregiously dumb.

Not getting that he meant alpha as in "alpha right now" is dumb. Not sure if your being stupid or facetious.

EVERYONE advocating the same view has their arguments based on the fact that alpha isnt a balance test since there is only a partial set implemented. Of course the reasoning stop applying whenever the full set is implemented. Do you really need us to state that explicitly? Stop nitpicking about semantics.

Zer0
10-15-2013, 04:12 AM
In my opinion, I don't believe the devs will do any balancing of cards any more. I think they've already finalized the set and might even have already begun designing set 2 at this point.

I bet they have a team specifically for game balance and card designing, they are probably very experienced, and they probably understand most card interactions. They know that every set will have bad cards and every set will have bombs that are very valuable. Its actually very advantageous for them to have bombs like that, it gets people excited about the game.

Enyeez
10-15-2013, 07:26 AM
I expect criticism for this early post, but wanted to get some thinking going around this card. Noting I say below has a professional card players credibility or a card designers credibility, it is just my early reactions to the card. With that said, if you are still interested glancing below, please feel free to read and share your thoughts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've seen a number of decks using this card, as I have as well. The ability to thin your deck to the point of being able to top-deck into pretty much whatever you want is insanely powerful. I feel that his printed power for a 5 drop may need to be revisited.

This is in light of both mill effects and resource removal not being as main stream in set 1, and for most decks the win condition after facing this top deck control are few and far between. Do players need to side-board mill and resource destruction to play around this, and would that even be enough?

Not saying I know everything in the short few days I have played, but I can sense there will be power level issues with the current card due to interactions with cards like Murder and Extinction in blood to totally control the board while getting to their top-deck state.

I will provide some 'thinking out-loud' suggestions:
#1 - Move Demented Demolishers to ruby, as a ruby card. This does quite a few things. It plays into the thematic of ruby resource destruction (similar to MTG's red land destruction). Red still has decent board control in heatwave, but does not provide extinction or murder. Making it a bit harder to splash pure removal, and making it impossible to play blood + diamond that combos well for life-gain / board control. Ruby also lacks reliable draw, like blood has in pact of pain(probably not the best idea as it also helps rush decks push out more wins through top deck burn)

#2 - Change the threshold cost to a more mono requirement - like 3 or 4 threshold. This moves away from splashing diamond or other cards that can dip into life gain for survival.

#3 - Change Demented Demolishers printed ability to "void half of the current resources in your deck". This is still a very powerful effect, but limits the amount of top-decking blow-out wins after the 5 drop. This also promotes the use of additional Demented Demolishers being played to further thin.

#4 - Increase the cards cost to 6 or 7.

the card is seriously not good, Magic (yes yes, but fact is, this is very much like that game) have had two cards that resemble this, none of which creatures, but both with the option to leave lands in the deck, or in your upkeep get one of the removed lands into your hand.

Endless Horizons (Magic), was neever played in any good decks.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=157975

Mana Severence (Magic), was only ever good with another card that revealed cards from your deck until you reveal a land card, to then deal damage equals to the number of cards revealed.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4710

Perhaps the limited card pool will warrent the inclusion of the vampire, but he is far from overpowered, he would not even be good if he was 5/5 or he cost 4 resources.

#1 where I agree that flavour is more chaotic, I dont think it matters much, but it would see more play in Ruby.
#2 with it being an overcosted creature it doesnt really matter how much threshhold it requires, there are quite a few reasons to play blood, this is not one of them.
#3 the second demolisher would still only take half of the remaining decks resources, which would put it from bad to worse.
#4 if you play it on turn 5 with 5 resources in play, you are vulnerable to resource removal, but if magic with a card pool infinitely bigger can sport better cards with similar effect for less mana, there is no need to increase the cost of this.

Furthermore, the counterspell can easily take care of this.

I really do not get the hype for this card, I think it is very very weak, and I would much like to see it get buffed, two cards make it interesting, Ragefire and that Diamon Healing Escalate spell, but you can play those two in the same deck with Fulmination, which costs two, and you will then have access to better spells in general.

I hope you are wrong, I would like to see big plays with cards, but the fact is, this guy loses out to aggressive ruby decks, 2/1 3/1 for one and two resources, paired with burn, it will not even be close.

4acrossisemu
10-15-2013, 07:26 AM
When the Gems are added it will stop as you gain access to resource burn in all colours with them.

darkwonders
10-15-2013, 07:53 AM
What if cards get added that destroyed threshold shards? Again another way to completely decimate this deck after he removes all resources.

nicosharp
10-15-2013, 08:00 AM
the card is seriously not good, Magic (yes yes, but fact is, this is very much like that game) have had two cards that resemble this, none of which creatures, but both with the option to leave lands in the deck, or in your upkeep get one of the removed lands into your hand.

Endless Horizons (Magic), was neever played in any good decks.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=157975

Mana Severence (Magic), was only ever good with another card that revealed cards from your deck until you reveal a land card, to then deal damage equals to the number of cards revealed.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4710

Perhaps the limited card pool will warrent the inclusion of the vampire, but he is far from overpowered, he would not even be good if he was 5/5 or he cost 4 resources.

#1 where I agree that flavour is more chaotic, I dont think it matters much, but it would see more play in Ruby.
#2 with it being an overcosted creature it doesnt really matter how much threshhold it requires, there are quite a few reasons to play blood, this is not one of them.
#3 the second demolisher would still only take half of the remaining decks resources, which would put it from bad to worse.
#4 if you play it on turn 5 with 5 resources in play, you are vulnerable to resource removal, but if magic with a card pool infinitely bigger can sport better cards with similar effect for less mana, there is no need to increase the cost of this.

Furthermore, the counterspell can easily take care of this.

I really do not get the hype for this card, I think it is very very weak, and I would much like to see it get buffed, two cards make it interesting, Ragefire and that Diamon Healing Escalate spell, but you can play those two in the same deck with Fulmination, which costs two, and you will then have access to better spells in general.

I hope you are wrong, I would like to see big plays with cards, but the fact is, this guy loses out to aggressive ruby decks, 2/1 3/1 for one and two resources, paired with burn, it will not even be close.
It was a snap reaction, with a bit of fuel to back it. The two most important things to mention in response to you are:
#1 - Magic already had well established blocks and decks by the time they introduced those cards.
#2 - Like many people have said, we still do not know the entire set.

I agree with a lot of what you said, and thanks for thinking about it.

From what I have seen regarding Set 1 - Card draw, and card cycling are very powerful and fairly high cost abilities. There is also nothing that has been spoiled yet that acts as a 'tutor'. Having the ability to go straight to top deck, after turn 5 right now with the current spoiled cards, is very powerful.

I have no problem eating my words later. Both ruby rush, and wild can pump out speed / invincible to win before getting completely controlled and running out of steam, and in most cases diamond can sustain with healing depending on the type of demented demolisher control their opponents use. Sapphire will have counters, and always has counter-mill. If this ends up being "Demented Control" beats only "midrange" consistently, then all is fine in the paper-rock-scissors of deck archetypes. My only concern is that this is a degenerate deck type for set 1, but with 1 week of casual playtesting with half the set, this thought needs more credibility.

SomeoneRandom
10-15-2013, 08:03 AM
What if cards get added that destroyed threshold shards? Again another way to completely decimate this deck after he removes all resources.

I am sure there will eventually be cards that do this, need to be careful with resource destruction. If a critical mass gets hit then degenerate decks emerge. This card is not as good as people think, can we please leave it alone for more testing?

@nicosharp
Sure you put yourself into top deck mode by turn 5, but in most cases and uses of this card you will be running higher end control. Which actually wants more than 5 resources! That is part of the reason this type of cards never saw play in Magic, it is an enabler in combo and a potential high end in aggro decks. People just need to learn to deal with it.

blakegrandon
10-15-2013, 09:56 AM
I am sure there will eventually be cards that do this, need to be careful with resource destruction. If a critical mass gets hit then degenerate decks emerge. This card is not as good as people think, can we please leave it alone for more testing?

@nicosharp
Sure you put yourself into top deck mode by turn 5, but in most cases and uses of this card you will be running higher end control. Which actually wants more than 5 resources! That is part of the reason this type of cards never saw play in Magic, it is an enabler in combo and a potential high end in aggro decks. People just need to learn to deal with it.

The significant difference between Magic and Hex is escalation.

I think you're significantly understating how good Demented Demolisher is unless they add ways to undo it(maybe a revert voided cards for target champion card) or unless they change how escalation works or add significant numbers of counters.

Blood/Diamond is incredibly powerful once you get escalating life(which counteracts almost any amount of troops) after using murder/extinction to counter any troops, which can enable you to churn for things like hex engine, pact of pain, and the card that untaps artifacts.

The only counter I've found is my escalating deck which uses Ruby/Sapphire to out-damage/mill them.


Comparing Demolisher to MTG just doesn't work because there are very few cards that will ramp up like escalating cards will in MTG when you get down to 20 cards.

Turn 1. Ruby+Dwarven Turbine
Turn 2: Ruby+Crimson Clarity+secret laboratory
Turn 3: Blood
Turn 4: Blood, Pact of Pain
Turn 5: Demented Demolisher, get rid of all lands
Turn 6+ search+pull either hex engines+ragefires.

You have to look at the overall mana curve which is incredibly small for escalating cards to see that demolisher is extremely powerful by removing all the unnecessary resources.

Rage Fire: 2 cost, escalates rapidly.
Chronic Madness: 1 cost, escalates rapidly.

SomeoneRandom
10-15-2013, 10:06 AM
Alright so in your "ideal draw" you have played 10 cards by turn 5. That means if you went first your hand is now has 1 card, if you went 2nd you have only 2 cards in hand. If running 25 resources you now have a deck of 30 cards. That is still a 13% chance of drawing a ragefire. Until turn 5 you have had a COMPLETELY EMPTY BOARD and now you only have a 3/3. I don't see how this is competitive at all. I am sure you can beat out casual people testing and looking for bugs. I am sure that draw would beat my deck that I have dubbed "garbage" that just has every card I have not thoroughly tested yet. But I don't see how you compete against a real deck. The likelihood of that opening is very low and the strength is still low.

Edit: Also Mana Severance was legal in one of the most degenerate formats of MTG ever... Urza Block... and it wasn't good enough to even look at. Sure there was no escalation, but again the only time this card saw ANY play was in a combo deck that needed all its lands gone.

Editted: for maf

Gimick
10-15-2013, 10:32 AM
I think the best option is to make this ability a tap ability, instead of activating when he comes into play. This gives the other player a chance to remove him prior to it activating. Thus, giving a counter to it for all colors (This also may mean making his armor 2, instead of 3).

nicosharp
10-15-2013, 10:32 AM
Alright so in your "ideal draw" you have played 9 cards by turn 5. That means if you went first your hand is now completely empty, if you went 2nd you have only 1 card in hand. If running 25 resources you now have a deck of 30 cards. That is still a 13% chance of drawing a ragefire.
Dat Maf OP.
I think he would have 3 cards in hand turn 6, or 4 cards in hand turn 6. A pact of pain on the table, and a double triggerable secret laboratory. But maybe my maf skills UP.

SomeoneRandom
10-15-2013, 10:42 AM
Dat Maf OP.
I think he would have 3 cards in hand turn 6, or 4 cards in hand turn 6. A pact of pain on the table, and a double triggerable secret laboratory. But maybe my maf skills UP.

You are right, I was 1 card off. Secret Lab doesn't draw a card, it only cycles so you end up with the same amount... If you are then activating pact of pain on turn 6 you have spent 2 of your 5 resources and lost more life leaving you more accessible to aggro.

On the Play:
Starting hand: 7
Turn 1: Ruby + Dwarven Turbine: 5
Turn 2 Draw : 6
Ruby + Crimson Clairty + Secret Lab: 3
Turn 3 Draw: 4
Blood: 3
Turn 4 Draw: 4
Blood + Pact of Pain: 2
Turn 5 Draw: 3
Resource + Demolisher: 1

Sorry, I just think this deck is complete garbage. I will throw a build together tonight and demolish it with the gauntlet.

nicosharp
10-15-2013, 10:53 AM
You are right, I was 1 card off. Secret Lab doesn't draw a card, it only cycles so you end up with the same amount... If you are then activating pact of pain on turn 6 you have spent 2 of your 5 resources and lost more life leaving you more accessible to aggro.

Again with dat maf. You were actually two cards off on turn 5. That is not the ideal draw anyway for the deck, depending on who you play against. You will probably want a Heat Wave and a Extinction in hand. The draw engine after turn 5 is amazing, and you could have a 6th shard in hand to play after the demolisher hits the table.

SomeoneRandom
10-15-2013, 11:07 AM
Can you point out where the math error was made? I did only get 2 hours sleep, but after going over it 3 times I don't see a mistake. I agree that after you spend 6 turns setting up you probably have good draws, but considering a lot of aggro decks can kill you by turn 4 it doesn't look that promising.

nicosharp
10-15-2013, 11:10 AM
Can you point out where the math error was made? I did only get 2 hours sleep, but after going over it 3 times I don't see a mistake. I agree that after you spend 6 turns setting up you probably have good draws, but considering a lot of aggro decks can kill you by turn 4 it doesn't look that promising.
Sure my pleasure.
Turn 1: you have either 7 or 8 cards.
Turn 2: you have either 8 or 9 cards.
Turn 3: you have either 9 or 10 cards.
Turn 4: you have either 10 or 11 cards.
Turn 5: you have either 11 or 12 cards.
subtract 9, and you get either 2 or 3 cards turn 5.
You said 0 or 1 card... That is 2 cards off.

SomeoneRandom
10-15-2013, 11:13 AM
Sure my pleasure.
Turn 1: you have either 7 or 8 cards.
Turn 2: you have either 8 or 9 cards.
Turn 3: you have either 9 or 10 cards.
Turn 4: you have either 10 or 11 cards.
Turn 5: you have either 11 or 12 cards.
subtract 9, and you get either 2 or 3 cards turn 5.
You said 0 or 1 card... That is 2 cards off.

Ahh yes, when I counted the initial 9 I only counted the cards he typed out, he missed typing the 5th resource to cast Demolisher. So it ended up only being one card off. 5 spells 5 lands are cast in that scenario, ending with either 1 or 2 cards.

nicosharp
10-15-2013, 11:19 AM
Ahh yes, when I counted the initial 9 I only counted the cards he typed out, he missed typing the 5th resource to cast Demolisher. So it ended up only being one card off. 5 spells 5 lands are cast in that scenario, ending with either 1 or 2 cards.

In all honesty, 2 of the 10 cards never need to be played. The Dwarven Turbine is a bit of overkill. You dont need the Turn 2 ramp card either. Pretty pointless tbh. But I was going off the stated 9. Turns out we were both right (on your iteration), just working off the wrong baseline.

More ideal on the draw would be:
Turn 1 Ruby: Burn in hand to counter gas troll
Turn 2 Ruby: Heat wave in hand
Turn 3 Blood: Potential Murder or Secret Laboratory
Turn 4 Blood: Potential Pact of Pain or Extinction
Turn 5 Blood: Demented Demolisher

That is 10 cards potentially, while maintaining a great board position vs aggro.

Deck would be
4x Demolisher
4x Murder
4x Extinction
4x Pact of Pain
4x Ragefire
4x Heat Wave
4x Burn
4x Secret Laboratory
14x Blood
14x Ruby (or 12 and 12 and add 4x more utility)

isawbones
10-15-2013, 12:21 PM
what about if it only put the resources into your discard, and cosmic totem would become a counter but the deck thinning would still be strong

Commoble
10-15-2013, 12:30 PM
what about if it only put the resources into your discard, and cosmic totem would become a counter but the deck thinning would still be strong

Because of shenanigans with High Tomb Lord and any card with similar effects.

blakegrandon
10-15-2013, 01:04 PM
Can you point out where the math error was made? I did only get 2 hours sleep, but after going over it 3 times I don't see a mistake. I agree that after you spend 6 turns setting up you probably have good draws, but considering a lot of aggro decks can kill you by turn 4 it doesn't look that promising.

I never stated that the play I posted was the only method to get to the end result of escalating, but merely the fastest.

Once you take into account board control it's almost impossible for an aggro deck to kill you by turn 4. Hell by turn two you can be dropping life gain, turn 3 murder or acceleration, and by turn 4 you can murder anything still on the board.

Maybe I approached it the wrong way by showing a sample play, the reality is that demented Demolisher PLUS board control is insanely OP once you get rid of all the resources.

It wasn't useful in Magic because there were no one cost escalating cards that could mill your opponent's entire deck in a few castings.

IMO escalation is the problem but Demented doesn't help.

Malakili
10-15-2013, 01:17 PM
board control is insanely OP

There, I boiled it down. If you are playing control, and you have control, you've won. That's the way control works. We do not have the entire sets right now. Saying it's easy to control the board with spells right now is meaningless in the context of the entire set.

bangari
10-15-2013, 02:05 PM
I never stated that the play I posted was the only method to get to the end result of escalating, but merely the fastest.

Once you take into account board control it's almost impossible for an aggro deck to kill you by turn 4. Hell by turn two you can be dropping life gain, turn 3 murder or acceleration, and by turn 4 you can murder anything still on the board.



Thats why all Sligh/RDW decks in mtg contains burn to push the last few points of damage in.

Gwaer
10-15-2013, 02:44 PM
Listen I'm a total noob, and have never even heard of this game hex until I randomly got an alpha invite after investing no money yesterday, but someone beat me with a demolisher deck and now my parents are getting divorced and my sister is dating someone twice our fathers age. This guy needs a serious nerf.

funktion
10-15-2013, 02:45 PM
Listen I'm a total noob, and have never even heard of this game hex until I randomly got an alpha invite after investing no money yesterday, but someone beat me with a demolisher deck and now my parents are getting divorced and my sister is dating someone twice our fathers age. This guy needs a serious nerf.

Wait, so when you say this guy needs a serious nerf... you're talking about your sisters new boyfriend right?

nicosharp
10-15-2013, 02:47 PM
Listen I'm a total noob, and have never even heard of this game hex until I randomly got an alpha invite after investing no money yesterday, but someone beat me with a demolisher deck and now my parents are getting divorced and my sister is dating someone twice our fathers age. This guy needs a serious nerf.

Thank god you understand now where I am coming from. If my parents had not divorce over this, I might have been able to handle this card. But now with that added stress (trust me, I don't give a shiz about my sister), I don't know how I can go on and have been listening to depeche mode for hours now.

Gwaer
10-15-2013, 02:50 PM
I suggest listening to every song by the cranberries ever made in one sitting. You'll not have any problems anymore once you're done.

nicosharp
10-15-2013, 02:52 PM
I suggest listening to every song by the cranberries ever made in one sitting. You'll not have any problems anymore once you're done.
Their band is appropriately named, because everytime I hear their music my urinary infection clears right up.

Captain_Obvious
10-15-2013, 02:55 PM
1137

~There, now can`t we all just get along?~

blakegrandon
10-15-2013, 05:24 PM
Thats why all Sligh/RDW decks in mtg contains burn to push the last few points of damage in.

Except in Magic the control decks don't have escalation+life gain.

You really don't see a problem with removing ALL of the mana with escalating cards that only cost 1-2+draw?

There, I boiled it down. If you are playing control, and you have control, you've won. That's the way control works. We do not have the entire sets right now. Saying it's easy to control the board with spells right now is meaningless in the context of the entire set.

By that logic what is there to discuss? Anything we discuss currently without the context of the "entire set" could be completely moot.

We're merely pointing out the fact that escalation+land removal is VERY potent as is, discussing a hypothetical future where there is a larger pool is meaningless.

There will always be a "future set" that changes how current cards play, that doesn't mean you can't discuss the CURRENT cards AS IS.

Gwaer
10-15-2013, 06:18 PM
there's plenty of counterplay to escalation already in the game. There's even more coming once we have all of set 1 implemented. Escalation really really isn't a problem already, so I can't imagine it becoming more of a problem. If it does turn out to be format warping then they can ban or restrict it.

Malakili
10-15-2013, 07:06 PM
By that logic what is there to discuss? Anything we discuss currently without the context of the "entire set" could be completely moot.


Now you're getting it.

bangari
10-15-2013, 08:26 PM
Except in Magic the control decks don't have escalation+life gain.


By that logic what is there to discuss? Anything we discuss currently without the context of the "entire set" could be completely moot.

Yes.


We're merely pointing out the fact that escalation+land removal is VERY potent as is, discussing a hypothetical future where there is a larger pool is meaningless.

Really?

You seriously wrote this out and sees nothing wrong with it?

The "as it is" situation is temporary, we know with 100% certainty things will be different when the actual final product rolls out (or even just weeks down the road). Why then, would it remotely matter?

At the same time, the hypothetical future IS THE FINAL PRODUCT you will be playing. Why would its existence be meaningless?

nicosharp
10-16-2013, 09:46 AM
Okay, here is an interesting deck build:
From Aettir (aka BossHoss - revealed actual build a few posts below):
41 shards - 21 blood / 20 diamond
3 Immortality
3 Demented Demolisher
4 Eternal Youth
2 Sliver of the Immortal Spear
1 Cosmic Totem
4 Pact of Pain
2 Chaos Key

I am not positive on the exact numbers of the deck, besides the 41 shards, and the 3 Immortality. He played all of the above. He may have had an extinction or 3, but I was also playing control, and I never saw it played.

Anyways, the match was pretty amazing. I had ragefires for over 200 damage, but I couldn't get around his eternal youth ramp that was at the same pace. The two times I did, he was able to play immortality. He also mentioned he had never lost a game yet with this deck.

I feel that the deck does have extreme flaws vs an exceptional rush curve and constant removal. The fact that both of our decks were slow allowed him to play at his own tempo and draw forever with pact of pain.

With 41 shards it is impossible to get resource screwed, but it may mean having a tougher time starting with a pact of pain/eternal youth or demented demolisher to make it past the early game.

darkwonders
10-16-2013, 09:52 AM
How many times did he mulligan?

nicosharp
10-16-2013, 09:57 AM
How many times did he mulligan?
0 - perhaps luck, but he was basically just using pact of pain and eternal youth early game. I know he also was holding an early Immortality. He was at 10 resources before he played demolisher.

SomeoneRandom
10-16-2013, 10:14 AM
That build is interesting and is the kind of extreme that would need to be tested further. I feel like although you more consistently get to your escalation cards it seems to have the same problems that most of us have mentioned of how it deals with aggro or countermagic. With 41 resources if you get your first demolisher countered and/or your pact of pain removed I could see it being rough.

nicosharp
10-16-2013, 10:24 AM
That build is interesting and is the kind of extreme that would need to be tested further. I feel like although you more consistently get to your escalation cards it seems to have the same problems that most of us have mentioned of how it deals with aggro or countermagic. With 41 resources if you get your first demolisher countered and/or your pact of pain removed I could see it being rough.
Yeah, not every color will have counter options to creatures hitting the board and their effects triggering set 1. Sapphire is always a sure bet, but not everyone will play sapphire. (Mill also an answer prior to sliver hitting the board)

Turning off the pact of pain engine is super important vs. this deck, and could be a viable side-board strategy.

The only other hard counter to me would be early emberspire witch rush. I also want to know how emberspire witch functions with immortality. Is the health reset considered life gain?

BossHoss
10-16-2013, 10:27 AM
I shall reveal my true identity... Aettir

You were close on the deck build... here is the list I have been using.

Bear in mind this build has the understanding that:

1. Alpha Testing "Meta" you are not going to see "Constant" removal
2. There is no Countermagic to worry about yet
3. Sideboarding does not happen yet
4. Ultimately this build was to test Demolisher capabilities

41 shards - 21 blood / 20 diamond
2 Immortality
3 Demented Demolisher
3 Eternal Youth
1 Sliver of the Immortal Spear
1 Cosmic Totem
3 Pact of Pain
1 Secret Laboratory
4 Extinction
1 Murder (I suffer from Osteocardosis - Disappearing cards)

Vorpal
10-16-2013, 10:29 AM
I would assume not. It just says 'if you are about to lose, you go to 10 life instead'. It's not necessarily life gain. Suppose you were at 20 life and someone played an escalated ragefire to one shot you...immortality would simply be lowering the amount your life decreases by, from 20, to 10.

nicosharp
10-16-2013, 10:39 AM
I shall reveal my true identity... Aettir

You were close on the deck build... here is the list I have been using.

Bear in mind this build has the understanding that:

1. Alpha Testing "Meta" you are not going to see "Constant" removal
2. There is no Countermagic to worry about yet
3. Sideboarding does not happen yet
4. Ultimately this build was to test Demolisher capabilities

41 shards - 21 blood / 20 diamond
2 Immortality
3 Demented Demolisher
3 Eternal Youth
1 Sliver of the Immortal Spear
1 Cosmic Totem
3 Pact of Pain
1 Secret Laboratory
4 Extinction
1 Murder (I suffer from Osteocardosis - Disappearing cards)
That is awesome BossHoss. I am glad it was you, and it sucks to know you only had 2 Immortality.. I may have been able to erk out that win. Very cool strategy though, and it was a very educational/fun game. I wish I had twitch set to record.

I think what I like more than the fact you can get down to 19 cards.. and at one point you only had 5 cards in your deck... is the ability to play most every effect as an instant. (quick cast). This allows you to respond in very many ways to survive.. whether it means using the cosmic totem to reset and dig for an immortality with pact of pain, or create slivers to counter not being able to draw at the start of turn.

Also agree with your assumption Vorpal - adding it to the list of things I want to test.

jtatta
10-16-2013, 11:00 AM
These decks aren't anything new. It was very obvious from the very first day and when I built my version I wasn't too surprised to play against two other versions of the same deck. I've seen anywhere from 27 to 40 resources in the deck and as people are pointing out, the deck is easy to counter.

While my version is slightly different (only 30 Shards right this moment), I have lost games to mill decks and aggro decks. Against the aggro decks it's basically Extinction or bust. The life gain escalation is pretty sweet but I think I prefer the Ruby / Blood versions that play Ragefire and Life Siphon since it gives you another "Wrath" effect in Heat Wave.

All that aside, it's pretty obvious that Cryptozoic has tested this card in the exact same ways we are playing it. In fact, Cory was playing a three color version of it on the first day of alpha. If they don't think it's broken, then I wouldn't immediately say that the deck is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Is it a good deck? Absolutely. Is Demolisher good? Absolutely. I'm sure that it's working as intended.

Carry on!

BossHoss
10-16-2013, 11:04 AM
The sliver works great against mill too:

The loss does not happen until you are forced to draw a card so alot of the time you are able to get milled (Don`t panic) begin your turn, ready all your slivers and create one before your draw phase. If your opponent tries to mill you again, wait for the effect to resolve and create another spear. Creates a fun "chicken" style end game.

jtatta
10-16-2013, 11:10 AM
The sliver works great against mill too:

The loss does not happen until you are forced to draw a card so alot of the time you are able to get milled (Don`t panic) begin your turn, ready all your slivers and create one before your draw phase. If your opponent tries to mill you again, wait for the effect to resolve and create another spear. Creates a fun "chicken" style end game.

While this certainly works, more often than not you lose to the Sabotages rather than the actual mill. Good trick though.

(Although if you're at like 8375375935 Life because of Eternal Youth, you're good to go)

nicosharp
10-16-2013, 11:11 AM
(nice edit - exactly)

BossHoss
10-16-2013, 11:14 AM
While this certainly works, more often than not you lose to the Sabotages rather than the actual mill. Good trick though.

(Although if you're at like 8375375935 Life because of Eternal Youth, you're good to go)

There is always a weakness.

This is where I think the balance is great. It is creating new minigames the majority of us MtG players may not be used to.

This deck may have been strong for me, but there is definitely responses to beat it.

ossuary
10-16-2013, 11:23 AM
The sliver as an anti-mill strategy hadn't even occurred to me. That's brilliant.

Certainly this style of deck can be defeated before it gets up and running, but it definitely looks like a fairly resilient package once it IS on the go. It reminds me a bit of turbofog in that way.

stiii
10-16-2013, 01:42 PM
How exactly do these decks ever win if they don't draw Demolisher?

Fake edit: if the answer is it doesn't then running only 3 is "interesting"

BigDog
10-16-2013, 02:01 PM
How exactly do these decks ever win if they don't draw Demolisher?

Fake edit: if the answer is it doesn't then running only 3 is "interesting"

Lol..."interesting?" That's ...a political way of saying it.

Also, It's a sad day, i'm not sure i want a world where stu doesn't use both barrels in a situation like this :(

darkwonders
10-16-2013, 02:05 PM
Like others said, counters and weenie rush decks will keep this deck in check. It's kinda hard to win when you can't get DD out and have 2/3 of your deck being resources.

Gwaer
10-16-2013, 02:39 PM
He has definitely lost with that deck at some point, because I beat him last night =P

darkwonders
10-16-2013, 02:46 PM
What deck did you use?

BossHoss
10-16-2013, 02:50 PM
`Tis true... Gwaer stomped me with a minefield of Booby Traps... I would like to say that there was approx 60 points of damage lurking around from about turn 4 on

Gwaer
10-16-2013, 02:57 PM
He immortalitied my big finish though, the jerk. If I hadn't gone for the really big finish I might have been able to put a ragefire on the stack after you cast immortality. I'm not sure if that would have ended the game or not, though.

Nevermind that was during my combat phase and ragefire is a basic action. I guess I'm okay with how it went down =P

Vorpal
10-16-2013, 03:04 PM
How do you prevent the booby traps from being made pointless by eternal youth?

BossHoss
10-16-2013, 03:05 PM
^^ As long as it beats out/ mills out the Eternal Youth


Ending the game with a Booby Trap has to be one of the double back achievements I would imagine

stiii
10-16-2013, 03:55 PM
Lol..."interesting?" That's ...a political way of saying it.

Also, It's a sad day, i'm not sure i want a world where stu doesn't use both barrels in a situation like this :(

I mean people can easily answer with this is alpha I'm not trying to perfectly optimise my deck.

I think the real issue is with the mirror. Both decks gain 1000000 life and then what? Click until one of them times out? Even if the deck is over powered this is pretty awful.

Kilo24
10-16-2013, 04:07 PM
Personally, I'd like to see a life cap in play. Maybe 1000 or something else high enough that only infinite combos and Escalation cards can get there.

I'd also like to see something similar for all variables that the game handles, like attack/defense, damage, and anything on an Escalation card. That way, instead of the game crashing, rolling over to negative values or being capped at some number that only makes sense to programmers, you get defined behavior at the maximum values.

BossHoss
10-16-2013, 04:37 PM
I mean people can easily answer with this is alpha I'm not trying to perfectly optimise my deck.

I think the real issue is with the mirror. Both decks gain 1000000 life and then what? Click until one of them times out? Even if the deck is over powered this is pretty awful.

this is alpha I'm not trying to perfectly optimise my deck.

You were right, that was an easy answer (thanks cut and paste!) ;p

You are dissecting and criticizing a deck that I built for bug testing purposes that just so happened to win alot of games for me and I enjoyed playing.



Bear in mind this build has the understanding that:

1. Alpha testing "Meta" you are not going to see "Constant" removal
2. There is no Countermagic to worry about yet
3. Sideboarding does not happen yet
4. Ultimately this build was to test Demolisher capabilities


My apologies as I should have apparently been more clear and added "Sliver of the Immortal Spear", "Immortality" and "Eternal Youth" also. Maybe it should also be noted that I am not building decks to win tournaments currently but instead challenging myself to build a deck with a specific purpose in mind for a playtest/bugtest while concurrently creating a somewhat competitive deck so I am not going "Hey, pass your turn for 10 turns so i can try something, k?". This deck answered a lot of bug questions on the forums while being enjoyable to play.

So in your definition this deck may be "pretty awful" but for the purpose I had built it (to bugtest certain cards) it turned out to be rather epic (won games vs a large variety of deck types)

lamaros
10-16-2013, 04:46 PM
By that logic what is there to discuss? Anything we discuss currently without the context of the "entire set" could be completely moot.

Exactly.

We're here to find bugs. It's an alpha for a TCG.

stiii
10-16-2013, 05:06 PM
this is alpha I'm not trying to perfectly optimise my deck.

You were right, that was an easy answer (thanks cut and paste!) ;p

You are dissecting and criticizing a deck that I built for bug testing purposes that just so happened to win alot of games for me and I enjoyed playing.



My apologies as I should have apparently been more clear and added "Sliver of the Immortal Spear", "Immortality" and "Eternal Youth" also. Maybe it should also be noted that I am not building decks to win tournaments currently but instead challenging myself to build a deck with a specific purpose in mind for a playtest/bugtest while concurrently creating a somewhat competitive deck so I am not going "Hey, pass your turn for 10 turns so i can try something, k?". This deck answered a lot of bug questions on the forums while being enjoyable to play.

So in your definition this deck may be "pretty awful" but for the purpose I had built it (to bugtest certain cards) it turned out to be rather epic (won games vs a large variety of deck types)

You seem to be replying as those my post was directed at you rather than the OP, any reason for that? If people aren't trying to build an optimal version then you can't tell if the card is broken in the first place.


You also took "pretty awful" horribly out of context. I was talking about timing out something you ignored but it was pretty much the only thing I said in that paragraph. Your point also seems to wander a bit here. If you built it to bug test then why does it matter how many games it won?