PDA

View Full Version : How does "Immortality" interact with non life-effecting losses and multiple losses?



Paradigm
10-15-2013, 08:59 PM
Obviously the former only applies to "Reginald Lancashire (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/ReginaldLancashire.jpg)" at the moment. In the future, however, that may change.

Immortality (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/Immortality.jpg) reads: "If you would lose the game this turn, your health becomes 10 instead." Seems pretty straightforward, but how would that apply to Lancashire?

Furthermore, what if my opponent has multiple instances of lethal damage on the board?

Say she exhausts 5 "Sliver of the Immortal Spea (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/SliverOfTheImmortalSpear.jpg)r" to which I respond with Immortality. I take 5000 damage and then instead of losing, my life total becomes 10. Then my opponent enters their combat step and attacks with his 6 6/6 pack raptors. Does my life again drop to 0, and again instead of losing, my life total becomes 10? (Remember, it's if you would lose the game 'this turn')

Regardless of how 'Immortality' behaves in game, what was the intent of this card? Can anyone who would have knowledge (Creative/dev teams) on this shine some light on it for me?


I don't have my alpha invite as of yet, so I'm hoping some of you alpha players who are already in can shed some light on those latter questions. Hopefully I'll be playing before we have access to Reginald Lancashire.

Govir
10-15-2013, 09:11 PM
I'm not in Alpha, nor am I a dev for Hex. But I'm going to chip in my opinion anyway.

I think in the case of Reginald, it's tricky. I think it depends when you draw him and how his ability works. i.e. if you draw him in the Draw Phase, can you actually react to his ability? You normally can't play quick actions during the draw phase, but abilities normally aren't put on the stack (is that what it's called in this game?) in the draw phase either. If you drew Reginald in a different way (e.g. from some sort of card drawing ability) then I think you'd definitely be able to react with Immortality and it would save you. I'm basing this off of the wording of cards like Murder (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/Murder.jpg), which will "destroy" a Troop. So just like Troops have multiple "death" conditions, I assume players do as well. So being "destroyed" by Reginald would mean you lose the game, but Immortality would prevent you from losing the game instead.

In the case of the Immortal Spear, my gut says it should save you again. Immortality does not say "Until end of turn, the next time you would lose the game, your health becomes 10 instead." I think it would persist until end of turn. Would be nice for someone in the Alpha to try and setup.

HyenaNipples
10-15-2013, 09:24 PM
In both cases. it seems like Immortality would work just fine.

There is no stipulation in Immortality that states you must lose the game by damage, so if you indeed got hit by Reginald- instead of losing the game, your life would become 10, whether or not you had more or less than that amount.

In your second example, you are simply describing the different steps of a single turn. Immortality stipulates that it covers you for the entire turn, whether you took 1 damage to 0, or a billion divided over every phase of the turn. By the time the cleanup step came in the End Phase, your life would be set to 10 and the game would continue.

Those are my assumptions, anyway.

jay203
10-15-2013, 09:51 PM
Reginald is just silly...
potential to instant win the next turn after it hits opponent...
the cost needs to be upped... like a lot

Gwaer
10-15-2013, 10:08 PM
Don't let him hit you.

escapeRoute
10-16-2013, 02:22 AM
Reginald is just silly...
potential to instant win the next turn after it hits opponent...
the cost needs to be upped... like a lot

potentially once every 40 games in wich he is totally useless? no tnx... if it was like phage the untouchable ok... but god, he is a wasted card most of the time

ossuary
10-16-2013, 04:34 AM
That's what Reggie WANTS you to think. Engarde! :)

Paradigm
10-16-2013, 07:40 AM
Those are my assumptions, anyway.

Pretty much my assumptions as well, I just wanted someone to test the latter half of immortality, and get some plausible ideas on the former. Also, Hey, I see you in stream commenting quite often. I'm "Iplaychildrenscardgames" I talk too much in Twitch stream chat.

Grubar
10-16-2013, 08:15 AM
I think a more interesting question is how does it interact with losing from being unable to draw.. since it actually states that you go to 10 health instead of losing, does it stop you from losing this way as well? Obviously I would then possibly lose next turn when I can't draw.. but if I was holding 2 of these could I continue casting this to not lose even if I could not draw?

HyenaNipples
10-16-2013, 08:33 AM
Well, it is a quick action, and you are allowed to play those before the Draw Step. So if the traditional rules apply, it should stop even a mill loss- I would think.

nicosharp
10-16-2013, 09:34 AM
Has anyone been able to test this card to see if the effect triggers multiple times in a turn?

example: They have 2 health, you deal 2 damage, and then deal 10 damage after the effect triggers.
Technically, you should not be able to lose, but it may play out different.

Captain_Obvious
10-16-2013, 09:52 AM
Yes it does...

nicosharp
10-16-2013, 09:56 AM
Yes it does...Thanks, Almost was able to test it yesterday, but did not have the open resources in that particular game.

BossHoss
10-16-2013, 10:00 AM
I had this happen which also may have resulted in a bug.

Scenario:
Opponent`s 1st Main Phase
Health at 4
Pact of Pain to 2 Health
Drew a Booby Trap
Cast Immortality in response
Booby Trap resolved "killing" me
Health reset to 10
Attack Phase
Opponent attacked with 16 points of Crush damage
Damage resolved and "killed" me again resetting health to 10
But... Crush continued to hit for 6 more points of "trample" damage leaving Health at 4

Not sure if this is a bug or the intended effect of Crush

Grubar
10-16-2013, 10:05 AM
Thanks for the scenario. It seems like a bug unless damage resolves 1 point at a time.

Zomnivore
10-16-2013, 10:46 AM
potentially once every 40 games in wich he is totally useless? no tnx... if it was like phage the untouchable ok... but god, he is a wasted card most of the time

If you have red/blue mill, I don't see why he would be bad at all

You still have a lot of control, with burn and you can sweep the field with the 2dmg to all drops ...so I don't see why he wouldn't be a threat period.

Definitely a contender for a lot of mill decks.

GatticusFinch
10-16-2013, 11:25 AM
Thanks for the scenario. It seems like a bug unless damage resolves 1 point at a time.

I am guessing it is a bug with how crushing damage is coded. There are probably two rounds of damage (one for the main attack minus any defense block, and then one for the crushing). So, when he didn't block it, the game saw he took enough damage to die, but crushing treated the immortality the same as a block and then hit him with the overflow.

It's funny, these cards that are so easy to resolve in a paper card game have so many interactions in a digital game. I imagine there will be constant bug fixes whenever a new series comes out and some weird card scenario happens.

Grubar
10-16-2013, 01:29 PM
I am guessing it is a bug with how crushing damage is coded. There are probably two rounds of damage (one for the main attack minus any defense block, and then one for the crushing). So, when he didn't block it, the game saw he took enough damage to die, but crushing treated the immortality the same as a block and then hit him with the overflow.

It's funny, these cards that are so easy to resolve in a paper card game have so many interactions in a digital game. I imagine there will be constant bug fixes whenever a new series comes out and some weird card scenario happens.

I agree and it is exactly why asking these types of questions is relevant even when the answer seems obvious.

Captain_Obvious
10-16-2013, 01:34 PM
~Don`t worry. If it is obvious I will be there faster than the speed of stupid~

stiii
10-16-2013, 01:37 PM
Christ some people are daft.

Immortality=you can't lose that turn.

Can't. Lose.

Assuming the rulers of a TCG work in a logical fashion is a big assumption.

However assuing the rules work the same as magic (which is pretty likely) this would happen,

Immortality creates a replacement effect that will replace you losing the game with setting your life to ten. Therefore each time you would lose it is replaced with you being on ten. The said it is possible some events are impossible to replace.


There is also another issue with the ruby troop that says players can't gain life where it depends if setting your life to ten counts as gaining life or not.

An_Idiot
10-16-2013, 02:02 PM
There is also another issue with the ruby troop that says players can't gain life where it depends if setting your life to ten counts as gaining life or not.

In magic, you can "set" life equal to(or have your life become) something without gaining or losing the life required to get there. so events that trigger on losing or gaining life don't occur.

stiii
10-16-2013, 04:07 PM
In magic, you can "set" life equal to(or have your life become) something without gaining or losing the life required to get there. so events that trigger on losing or gaining life don't occur.

This is not true

Captain_Obvious
10-16-2013, 04:43 PM
This is not true

~That is very enlightening~

Care to elaborate to fill the curiosity void of us with less of an intelligence capacity?

stiii
10-16-2013, 05:07 PM
Rule 118.5. If an effect sets a player’s life total to a specific number, the player gains or loses the necessary
amount of life to end up with the new total.

(this is a magic rule obviously)

Captain_Obvious
10-16-2013, 05:12 PM
Rule 118.5. If an effect sets a player’s life total to a specific number, the player gains or loses the necessary
amount of life to end up with the new total.

(this is a magic rule obviously)

Thanks

An_Idiot
10-16-2013, 06:26 PM
hmmm, guess i've been playing wrong.

Showsni
10-16-2013, 08:48 PM
I think a more interesting question is how does it interact with losing from being unable to draw.. since it actually states that you go to 10 health instead of losing, does it stop you from losing this way as well? Obviously I would then possibly lose next turn when I can't draw.. but if I was holding 2 of these could I continue casting this to not lose even if I could not draw?

Tested it, and Immortality has no effect on dying due to being unable to draw. (I had one card in my library, and Wrenlocke in play. Played Immortality, drawing my last card from the Wrenlocked trigger, and let Immortality resolve. Played second Immortality, Wrenlocke triggered, and I lost from being unable to draw.)

stiii
10-16-2013, 08:52 PM
Tested it, and Immortality has no effect on dying due to being unable to draw. (I had one card in my library, and Wrenlocke in play. Played Immortality, drawing my last card from the Wrenlocked trigger, and let Immortality resolve. Played second Immortality, Wrenlocke triggered, and I lost from being unable to draw.)

And this is why we need a comp rules.

This might be how it is meant to work but it might be a bug, who knows.

ossuary
10-17-2013, 04:47 AM
Well considering Immortality says "if you would lose," not "if you would take lethal damage," it seems like a bug (or the card text requires clarification). Either way, it needs a dev to chime in. :)

escapeRoute
10-17-2013, 05:01 AM
it will probably take times before we will get a decent set of standard rules like the oracle for mtg

GatticusFinch
10-17-2013, 07:33 AM
it will probably take times before we will get a decent set of standard rules like the oracle for mtg

Should be much, much easier than that. The problem in MTG, was that there were two players arguing over how a physical card will operate. In Hex, there isn't going to be that--the card will work as it does in the client and that is that. It is either working correctly or bugged. There really shouldn't be a need for a rule book, more like an explanation of how cards react in certain situations.

Arkaal
10-17-2013, 09:22 AM
Should be much, much easier than that. The problem in MTG, was that there were two players arguing over how a physical card will operate. In Hex, there isn't going to be that--the card will work as it does in the client and that is that. It is either working correctly or bugged.

But you need the same specific rules to determine if a card is acting properly or if it is bugged. When everything is working correctly, it is nice that we don't need to reference the rules to determine what happens. However, until things are working correctly, it's very difficult to tell if something is bugged or not when we don't have a set rules.


There really shouldn't be a need for a rule book, more like an explanation of how cards react in certain situations.

So you need an explanation about how cards will interact. Explaining the interaction of all possible card combinations would be absurd. Why don't we present it in the form of generalized interations, like a set of rules. Perhaps in book form? :P

Grubar
10-17-2013, 09:49 AM
Tested it, and Immortality has no effect on dying due to being unable to draw. (I had one card in my library, and Wrenlocke in play. Played Immortality, drawing my last card from the Wrenlocked trigger, and let Immortality resolve. Played second Immortality, Wrenlocke triggered, and I lost from being unable to draw.)

Thanks for that test. With this result I am now curious about Reginald and immortality, how many different ways of losing the game exist in hex. Maybe someone could test them all and see what we get.

GatticusFinch
10-17-2013, 11:27 AM
So you need an explanation about how cards will interact. Explaining the interaction of all possible card combinations would be absurd. Why don't we present it in the form of generalized interations, like a set of rules. Perhaps in book form? :P

Yeah, yeah. You know what I meant--there aren't going to be hour long in-person fights over how the card resolves, because the client will do as it pleases. So, it's not going to be a rule book per se, more like a "working as intended" or "bugged" post. You're right that for the time being, there is no real way to tell, and I am basically applying MTG reasoning to how things should work, but once it is live the need for anything as extensive as oracle shouldn't be necessary (thought it would be appreciated).

Arkaal
10-17-2013, 11:34 AM
Yeah, yeah. You know what I meant--there aren't going to be hour long in-person fights over how the card resolves, because the client will do as it pleases. So, it's not going to be a rule book per se, more like a "working as intended" or "bugged" post. You're right that for the time being, there is no real way to tell, and I am basically applying MTG reasoning to how things should work, but once it is live the need for anything as extensive as oracle shouldn't be necessary (thought it would be appreciated).

But if I see a possible combo, it would be nice to be able to check the rules and know, rather than having to play a test game to see what happens.

GatticusFinch
10-17-2013, 12:20 PM
But if I see a possible combo, it would be nice to be able to check the rules and know, rather than having to play a test game to see what happens.

For sure. I'm assuming that there will still be "pre-release" phases of Hex like there are in MTG where that stuff gets fleshed out, but maybe that will not be the case.

ossuary
10-17-2013, 12:48 PM
I would definitely want to know ahead of time exactly how 2 cards are going to interact before actually playing with them - especially since someone might invest real money to buy those cards... if it didn't work as expected and they couldn't find that out ahead of time due to lack of documentation, that could really tick someone off. :)

Vorpal
10-17-2013, 01:33 PM
Yeah. Is Immortality a 'you can't lose this turn' card?

Or is it supposed to mean 'you can't lose this turn due to your life hitting zero'

Those are two very different things with very different levels of power. The straight text seems to imply the former, setting life to 10 seems to imply the latter.

Definitely you'd want this resolved before trying to play with reginald, for example.

Arkaal
10-17-2013, 02:18 PM
For sure. I'm assuming that there will still be "pre-release" phases of Hex like there are in MTG where that stuff gets fleshed out, but maybe that will not be the case.

But how will that be presented to a player? What about someone who starts playing after a Set is released?