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View Full Version : Life Siphon doesn't cap on opponent's life total?



Typhon
10-17-2013, 09:06 AM
I'm actually not sure if this is a bug or "working as intended"; but it doesn't (thematically) feel right to me. At any rate; in a recent game I played against the AI (video below; skip to the end), the opponent had 5 life and I had 17 resource (I had 16 life). I understand that Life Siphon reads "Deal X damage to target champion and gain X health", but you shouldn't be able to drain what doesn't exist. So in this case; I Life Siphon for 17, the opponent's life goes down to 0, and my life goes to 33. Since the opponent's health goes down to 0 (and not negative); I feel that my health should have only gone up to 21. Thoughts?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GsTmPg7jN4

The_Wine_Gnat
10-17-2013, 09:09 AM
I'm actually not sure if this is a bug or "working as intended"; but it doesn't (thematically) feel right to me. At any rate; in a recent game I played against the AI (video below; skip to the end), the opponent had 5 life and I had 17 resource (I had 16 life). I understand that Life Siphon reads "Deal X damage to target champion and gain X health", but you shouldn't be able to drain what doesn't exist. So in this case; I Life Siphon for 17, the opponent's life goes down to 0, and my life goes to 33. Since the opponent's health goes down to 0 (and not negative); I feel that my health should have only gone up to 21. Thoughts?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GsTmPg7jN4

Hmm, I would say it's probably working as intended as there are/will be cards that your opponent can Quick Action to boost their life.

houjix
10-17-2013, 09:10 AM
This has been brought up before and most likely it is working as intened. The amount of heal is equal to the packet of damage and is not limited to the remaining health of the target. Frankly it's odd that they haven't allowed player life going negative as there has been instances of Lifedrain saving someone when they should have gone heavily negative even with the heals.

FenMiHuo
10-17-2013, 09:13 AM
if it says "Deal X then gain X" that is correct, do one thing, then the other based on X, if it said "Gain the amount dealt" or something else then it would be as you thought

Lawlschool
10-17-2013, 09:17 AM
I've never known a tcg, or most any game, to have damage limited by opponent's health. It's not necessary (going over their total is simply "overkill") and could be detrimental if the opponent has a way to limit the dmg or gain health. Also, Life Siphon says "Deal X damage to target champion and gain X health," so the damage and the health gain are independent of each other. You wouldn't want limits on the amount of health you gained to affect the amount of dmg it could do (e.g. if your opponent had an emberspire witch).

Should be working exactly as intended.

ShadowIronblood
10-17-2013, 09:30 AM
Sounds like its working fine just maybe need to let life totals to go into the negative.

Gregzilla
10-17-2013, 09:41 AM
Why the heck did he Dingler his own creature?

houjix
10-17-2013, 10:00 AM
Why the heck did he Dingler his own creature?

That's what the AI had been doing the whole time. Why, who knows. The AI isn't perfect yet.

tatsumasa
10-17-2013, 10:33 AM
Life totals do not need to go negative.

The rules as I understand them in Hex today (and the way they should be), when your life becomes zero, you lose the game next time you would gain priority. This means if you do something that would cause me to have 0 life, I can respond before that effect triggers, perhaps to gain life and live. However, once I let your effect trigger, if my life is 0, I die.

Gwaer
10-17-2013, 10:53 AM
Life drain on troops works this way as well. If you have a 3/3 life drain and it hits a 1/1 you still gain 3 life. That's working as intended I believe.

Jbizzi
10-17-2013, 11:11 AM
Gwaer, you referring to Terrible Transfer? In other words, you will always receive life totaling the amount of blood resources you have?

houjix
10-17-2013, 11:16 AM
Life totals do not need to go negative.

The rules as I understand them in Hex today (and the way they should be), when your life becomes zero, you lose the game next time you would gain priority. This means if you do something that would cause me to have 0 life, I can respond before that effect triggers, perhaps to gain life and live. However, once I let your effect trigger, if my life is 0, I die.


That would be true if Lifedrain were to act as a triggered effect instead instantaneous upon dealing damage as it is currently doing. You can have a sitation of hitting for more than lethal brings them to zero and then lifedrain jumps them back above. This all occurs before anyone regains priority. I've seen it occur a few times already.

tatsumasa
10-17-2013, 11:38 AM
That would be true if Lifedrain were to act as a triggered effect instead instantaneous upon dealing damage as it is currently doing. You can have a sitation of hitting for more than lethal brings them to zero and then lifedrain jumps them back above. This all occurs before anyone regains priority. I've seen it occur a few times already.

I don't understand what you are trying to say...

If a creature deals damage to you with life drain, then you already decided to let it do the damage and not use a quick action to gain life.

If a spell deals damage to you, then you already decided to let it do the damage and not use a quick action to gain life.

In either case, it makes no difference that damage happens at same time as the life drain. You had a chance to do something BEFORE the damage happened. At any rate, even if you were negative, you would need the same amount of life gain to not die in either case, e.g. at 2, take 5 damage, you need to heal 4 to be at 1. Like wise, you are at 2, heal 4 to be at 6, take 5 to be at 1.

Is there a system broken in the game right now that prevents you from acting in this way?

houjix
10-17-2013, 11:54 AM
I don't understand what you are trying to say...

If a creature deals damage to you with life drain, then you already decided to let it do the damage and not use a quick action to gain life.


Sorry if I didn't fully explain it. The situation has occurred when the player about to lose has a defending troop with lifedrain and blocks one of the other attacking troops. Damage is dealt, dropping the player to zero and then Lifedrain from the defending troop brings it back above. So say a player has 6 life left, gets hit for 10 damage, but blocked with a lifedrain troop having 1 attack, they would end up at 1 life, not -3 like they should.

tatsumasa
10-17-2013, 12:11 PM
Sorry if I didn't fully explain it. The situation has occurred when the player about to lose has a defending troop with lifedrain and blocks one of the other attacking troops. Damage is dealt, dropping the player to zero and then Lifedrain from the defending troop brings it back above. So say a player has 6 life left, gets hit for 10 damage, but blocked with a lifedrain troop having 1 attack, they would end up at 1 life, not -3 like they should.

Ah, that definitely sounds like a bug then... maybe they should make the "on damage" effects triggered to help with this. I think negative causes confusion like if both players are negative, is it a tie, or does less negative win, etc.

Malakili
10-17-2013, 01:29 PM
That card reads "Do X damage and Gain X life" It seems like the flavor of the card is throwing you off. It doesn't matter if the card is called "Life Siphon" or "Manchester United" if it reads "Do X damage and Gain x life" you're going to... do x damage and gain x life.

Drakari
10-17-2013, 08:26 PM
Ah, that definitely sounds like a bug then... maybe they should make the "on damage" effects triggered to help with this. I think negative causes confusion like if both players are negative, is it a tie, or does less negative win, etc.


I don't think a situation that results in both players going negative would result in any more confusion than a situation that results in both players going to exactly zero. In fact, it would provide a tiebreaker option; whichever player is MORE negative loses, though I don't necessarily think that's a good idea. The point is, if both players would have gone negative simultaneously then without negative life they would have just both gone to zero instead, which doesn't contain any more information as to which player won.

Eierdotter
10-18-2013, 01:41 AM
Life drain on troops works this way as well. If you have a 3/3 life drain and it hits a 1/1 you still gain 3 life. That's working as intended I believe.
in alpha you get 6 health :-P

jokes aside
Life Siphon (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/cards&cardid=17)
"Deal X damage to target champion and gain X health."
So the card has two seperate effects.
1. Deal X damage to a champion.
2. Gain X health.
(for example if you have Te'talca, High Cleric (http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/#!/cards&cardid=110&search=high+cleric) out and you Life Siphon for X=4, you deal 8 damage and gain 4 health.)
pretty straight forward.
To be fair there is a design flaw with the picture and the actual effect, but if it should work otherwise it would be worded:
"Deal up to X damage to target champion and gain health equal to the amount of damage dealt this way."

Typhon
10-18-2013, 11:47 AM
"Deal up to X damage to target champion and gain health equal to the amount of damage dealt this way."

This is what I was expecting. I don't disagree that it's "working as intended" from a wording perspective ... I'm just hung up on the flavor of the card.

It's kind of like if I used Life Siphon with Eternal Guardian out.

Eternal Guardian: "Prevent all damage that would be dealt to you and other troops you control."

No damage is taken; but yet I'll still gain life.