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Callahan420
10-17-2013, 11:10 PM
They won't allow us to do it there so why not here?
10/17 - 5:54 PM

Hey all. We've successfully patched and so far things look good on our end. We're monitoring for possible problems, checking bug reports, and the general housekeeping involved when patching. We're continuing work on the next patch as well.

For those of you in the alpha, we need your help to stress test our AI server. We've put out a Call to Arms for assistance in slaying the beast, or at least giving her a good run. Please log in and select Play AI matches from 5 PM to 5:30 PM Pacific on Friday, October 18th. That's Los Angeles time. Thank you in advance for assisting us!

This is a discussion! No flaming and bad mouthing. Criticism is welcome.

HyenaNipples
10-17-2013, 11:21 PM
Sounds like everything is going well, and the game is coming together bit by bit.

Thoroughly pleased with the daily updates.

kareal
10-18-2013, 12:09 AM
I'm dissapointed they are 'stress testing' without letting the second wave in.

Gwaer
10-18-2013, 12:20 AM
Stress testing with what is already in seems like a very good sign to things moving toward a second wave, to me anyway.

elsimer
10-18-2013, 01:00 AM
except all they are testing is the AI, not the server capabilities. Why invite more people when a few hundred can tax their servers adequately? I'm wondering if they've decided to change strategies and stick with a small group for most of the real alpha testing then let the rest in for a week or so before they announce beta. Of course, the same strategy could then be employed for beta (just because you had access during alpha doesn't mean it'll continue for beta).

Note I'm not complaining - I've been in enough alpha and beta groups to know that things change. Dates slip, expectations are managed and occasionally the most well-intentioned statements have to be withdrawn. Could be it turns out their solution simply doesn't scale as well as they expected. Just think of how many release dates Duke Nukem went through before release (maybe not the most positive of examples but it's there).

Gwaer
10-18-2013, 01:29 AM
Duke nukems problems were in no way related. They changed game engines repeatedly. It's apples to oranges. I have a feeling a lot of people are already playing against the ai rather than actual matches. The AI seems pretty intrinsic to their overall server health as well. Like I said before. I'm pretty sure this is an intermediate step before the next wave can be invited. They've given no indication that they intend to back off from getting as many people in as soon as they can. There's no reason to assume the worst in a situation that could very easily be positive.

Berkhtar
10-18-2013, 02:28 AM
Like I said before. I'm pretty sure this is an intermediate step before the next wave can be invited. They've given no indication that they intend to back off from getting as many people in as soon as they can. There's no reason to assume the worst in a situation that could very easily be positive.

Sound like you have a very reliable crystal orb on your desk. We "stress" this server with 150 people online at the moment. I think the biggest problem they have is their hardware... no way these servers could ever handle 20k plus people. And I have not seen any info about upgrading their little server-farm yet.

The word "stresstest" makes me somehow angry... this is simply rididulous.

hammer
10-18-2013, 02:37 AM
It is possible that 11am they invite $250 tiers then have them join the stress test later in the day at 5:30pm?

This would make more sense right? I would be worried if the GK-Producers alone even tickle the servers let alone stress them. Right please tell me it's so.

Marsden
10-18-2013, 02:51 AM
It is possible that 11am they invite $250 tiers then have them join the stress test later in the day at 5:30pm?

This would make more sense right? I would be worried if the GK-Producers alone even tickle the servers let alone stress them. Right please tell me it's so.

I don't think so. When some of us who have been invited can't even log in at the moment because of account problems (which were caused by bugs on the server) and some people don't even have access to a full set of cards (again, a server-side problem), all of which need to be looked at manually to try to fix I think it would be a really bad idea to invite more people until those account issues can be checked, debugged and patched so they don't happen again....if they invite more people in, those issues scale up to need lots more manual investigation/fixing.

Jinxies
10-18-2013, 03:40 AM
^ this

I don't expect wave 2 to go out before those issues are solved ^__^

Icepick
10-18-2013, 03:54 AM
The word "stresstest" makes me somehow angry... this is simply rididulous.

You're right, the fact that the word "stresstest" makes you angry is ridiculous.
Has no one considered the possibility that this stress test is happening to see if the current wave of people actually *can* stress the AI server? My guess is that they are doing it to find out how it holds up under the current load, to see if they are ready to invite more people or not. Depending on the results it wouldn't be too unreasonable to expect the next wave shortly after.

Vengus
10-18-2013, 04:08 AM
I don't think so. When some of us who have been invited can't even log in at the moment because of account problems (which were caused by bugs on the server) and some people don't even have access to a full set of cards (again, a server-side problem), all of which need to be looked at manually to try to fix I think it would be a really bad idea to invite more people until those account issues can be checked, debugged and patched so they don't happen again....if they invite more people in, those issues scale up to need lots more manual investigation/fixing.
Which makes the whole stress test ludicrous. Why do a stress test when some of the current testers can't even log in or make a deck?

dwebber88
10-18-2013, 04:17 AM
Again the back and forth with the alpha invites. Just patience guys!

SomeoneRandom
10-18-2013, 05:59 AM
It is possible that 11am they invite $250 tiers then have them join the stress test later in the day at 5:30pm?

This would make more sense right? I would be worried if the GK-Producers alone even tickle the servers let alone stress them. Right please tell me it's so.

I don't know about everyone else, but I have played like 3 games against the AI... I don't think many people are playing the AI. They just put major upgrades in their whole system, I am guessing the number of people playing the AI is very low to non-existent. If they want to invite another wave they have to first make sure their AI server can handle the new users... this is the way to do that. It is perfectly logical to me.

malloc31
10-18-2013, 06:43 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I have played like 3 games against the AI... I don't think many people are playing the AI. They just put major upgrades in their whole system, I am guessing the number of people playing the AI is very low to non-existent. If they want to invite another wave they have to first make sure their AI server can handle the new users... this is the way to do that. It is perfectly logical to me.

Why not just check if the AI server can handle the next wave by letting in the next wave and seeing if it causes problems? If it does they can take it down and fix it, it is alpha after all.

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 07:15 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I have played like 3 games against the AI... I don't think many people are playing the AI. They just put major upgrades in their whole system, I am guessing the number of people playing the AI is very low to non-existent. If they want to invite another wave they have to first make sure their AI server can handle the new users... this is the way to do that. It is perfectly logical to me.

I can't tell if this is a troll, you said people playing AI is almost non existent, then assume that the AI server needs tested to ensure it can handle the new people..... If nobody uses it now, inviting more people doesn't change anything.

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 07:19 AM
Why not just check if the AI server can handle the next wave by letting in the next wave and seeing if it causes problems? If it does they can take it down and fix it, it is alpha after all.

CZE has horribly missed every goal timeline so far, I wouldn't expect much from them. Their inexperience in the video game developing department is really showing. It's not a knock on the game, just rookie mistakes. Hopefully they won't publicly say any more deadlines so they don't look bad when they don't come close to meeting it.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 07:34 AM
^ Yep

They're taking a page right out of blizzard's book.

They'll start using the trademarked word very soon

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 07:38 AM
^ Yep

They're taking a page right out of blizzard's book.

They'll start using the trademarked word very soon

Doubt this game come anywhere close to the quality of a blizzard game.

Chiany
10-18-2013, 07:49 AM
Doubt this game come anywhere close to the quality of a blizzard game.

so what are you doing here?

yes, they are new to making video games, and mistakes will be made.
is that a bad thing?

they are learning from them, so give them some credit.

Marsden
10-18-2013, 07:55 AM
Doubt this game come anywhere close to the quality of a blizzard game.

Thankfully, it's not going to be anywhere near that bad. Just based on Alpha, it's going to be great :D

Icepick
10-18-2013, 08:03 AM
CZE has horribly missed every goal timeline so far, I wouldn't expect much from them. Their inexperience in the video game developing department is really showing. It's not a knock on the game, just rookie mistakes. Hopefully they won't publicly say any more deadlines so they don't look bad when they don't come close to meeting it.

Given the number of games from major publishers and developers that have been delayed far beyond their original launch day in the last couple of weeks alone, CZE missing their originally nebulous target date of "end of September" by a week is hardly what I would call a rookie mistake. Saying that they've "horribly missed" every date they've said is a MASSIVE exaggeration too, considering they've only actually concretely announced 1 date, and they only missed it by a day.
You accuse someone of trolling, but the only troll I see here is you.

mudkip
10-18-2013, 08:05 AM
My guess is they're testing things like load balancing on a small scale. They're going to keep doing tests on their small, cheap servers. I doubt more waves will be let in until there's some monetization to pay for the servers.

Vengus
10-18-2013, 08:23 AM
My guess is they're testing things like load balancing on a small scale. They're going to keep doing tests on their small, cheap servers. I doubt more waves will be let in until there's some monetization to pay for the servers.
Right... They got 2.3mil yaknow.

I hope CRZ gets useful data from the stress test, but I am not so sure about it. The amount of players in the alpha once all waves have been invited will be much higher than the amount of people they can possibly muster for this stress test.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 08:27 AM
Doubt this game come anywhere close to the quality of a blizzard game.

Lately Blizzard's been setting the bar pretty low for almost all their franchises they have under that umbrella of theirs.

The closest thing to Hex would be Hearthstone, and that is like comparing checkers to chess. Actually, it's more like comparing checkers to 3D Chess (#bigbangtheory).

WoW is a dumbed down version of it's former self, as is Diablo.

Starcraft, well, they did dumb it down a bit, but the core of the game wasn't changed so I still say that's a good game.


So yes, you're exactly right, this game won't come anywhere close to the quality of a blizzard game. And 10 years ago, that was a bad thing.

Now though, all I can say is thank god! That means Hex will actually be a very very good game if we're going to compare it to the slop Blizzard is passing off as their work nowadays.


Thankfully, it's not going to be anywhere near that bad. Just based on Alpha, it's going to be great :D

Aww we think alike! Internet high five!

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 08:30 AM
Sound like you have a very reliable crystal orb on your desk. We "stress" this server with 150 people online at the moment. I think the biggest problem they have is their hardware... no way these servers could ever handle 20k plus people. And I have not seen any info about upgrading their little server-farm yet.

The word "stresstest" makes me somehow angry... this is simply rididulous.

I don't know where you're pulling this 150 number from, the Wave was from GK to Producer, GK alone had 950ish some odd people in it, there's over 1,000 people in Alpha right now.

Comparatively speaking 1,000 to 20,000 doesn't seem like a Stress test, but going from CZE's 50 or so odd employee's to 1,000, that'll be a stress test.

Of course their hardware can't handle 20k people, when you do Alpha you don't gobble up server blades and install them. You do a small number and get just enough hardware to safely sustain your people you have on, that way you can know wether the bug is being caused by code, or if it's a problem because of server load. This test will probably let them know how far they can push a particular server, and will give them an idea of how many more people they can invite into the Alpha. If the test goes well and the servers they currently have will handle the $250 tiers, they'll let them in. If not, the $250 tiers will need to wait form them to order/get/install more hardware and then they can be let on.

You don't spend more money than you need to in game development, especially when on a budget. Yes they have 2.5 mil collectively from KS and Paypal, but that's all divided up in little pie pices on a big pie chart for seperate projects. They can't just throw their money in any which direction without care of what project it's coming out of.


I think it was a bold move with Cory letting us have alpha access, but they really needed to sit down and have a kickstarter update with more info about what an Alpha is than just "it'll be a lot of bugs"

elsimer
10-18-2013, 08:35 AM
Given the number of games from major publishers and developers that have been delayed far beyond their original launch day in the last couple of weeks alone, CZE missing their originally nebulous target date of "end of September" by a week is hardly what I would call a rookie mistake. Saying that they've "horribly missed" every date they've said is a MASSIVE exaggeration too, considering they've only actually concretely announced 1 date, and they only missed it by a day.
You accuse someone of trolling, but the only troll I see here is you.

Weren't you the one complaining about comparisons with other delayed games earlier? Their original nebulous September beta date has been more than a little wrong, and their original example of having everyone in alpha within a week was ludicrous. Yes it was intended to show the intended flow given optimal results but if they had more experience with development they would have known that instead of days they should have used weeks or better yet an unspecified but lengthy unit of measurement. There's a reason most games (not just Blizzard) use the infamous" when it's ready" phrase.

tautologico
10-18-2013, 08:36 AM
Given the number of games from major publishers and developers that have been delayed far beyond their original launch day in the last couple of weeks alone, CZE missing their originally nebulous target date of "end of September" by a week is hardly what I would call a rookie mistake.

First of all I'm not criticizing CZE. Dates slip, software gets late, it's normal (and I've been saying this since the Kickstarter).

However, they did not miss the original target date by just a week. The original target date was for Beta, and by the information given to us during the Kickstarter this beta would be a pretty feature-complete client, at least on the PVP side. Alpha would be a few weeks before beta.

We're still months away from a beta that matches what was promised during the KS campaign. The alpha is still on a pretty rough state. I think it's safe to say that their estimates were wildly off.

Soldack
10-18-2013, 08:40 AM
I'm wondering if they've decided to change strategies and stick with a small group for most of the real alpha testing then let the rest in for a week or so before they announce beta.

In a chat the other day this is about what they said.

Quasari
10-18-2013, 08:44 AM
In a chat the other day this is about what they said.

Source? If it's in game I need a screenshot, as that runs contrary to everything they've promised.

MoikPEI
10-18-2013, 08:44 AM
In a chat the other day this is about what they said.
Citation needed.
What chat?

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 08:47 AM
I have to agree with the last 2 posters, multiple dates have been missed, not just one.

BUT I applaud them for doing it. I'd much rather have transparency of whats going on than a veiled off project with no info other than it's ready when it's ready.

The problem are the people that cirticize them for doing it, if people would be just more understanding of how game development works a lot more companies wouldn't have to resort to using such a closed off method of development.

Everytime you criticize CZE as a company for missing dates, or get upset about how Alpha is working/being handled is just one more statement that brings us that much closer to them just shutting us out completely on how development is going.

I mean hell, it's rather bad when they feel worried about letting us know about an upcoming patch that may be able to let them do a 2nd wave of invites just for the fear that if it falls through that people will get upset.

That doesn't speak anything about them, but us a community. So before you say anything negative about how their handling things and think that you can do it better, or another company can do it better, remember that those other companies were no where near as open as CZE is (well, was) in the development process.

And rather than trying to knock them for what they're doing right or wrong, applaud them for doing something no other companies has the balls to do.

Get over the fact that dates are being missed, or pushed back, or that you're not in Alpha because at the end of the day, the development process will take just as long if they had just completely shut us out and said "it'll be ready when it's ready". THANK THEM for letting us know what's going on and what they're working on and being transparent, don't mock and insult them!

Icepick
10-18-2013, 08:48 AM
Weren't you the one complaining about comparisons with other delayed games earlier?

Erm... no? I don't think so o_O
Anyway, granted, they missed their original estimates of alpha/beta releases, but my point was that they had only announced 1 specific date. We can sit here and argue semantics and alpha/beta labelling all day along and get nowhere, but in my mind the Kickstarter says "Estimated delivery date: Sep 2013", and they started delivering a little over a week after that. Doesn't seem like a particularly huge slip to me. *shrug*

Glognar
10-18-2013, 08:48 AM
I don't know where you're pulling this 150 number from, the Wave was from GK to Producer, GK alone had 950ish some odd people in it, there's over 1,000 people in Alpha right now.

Comparatively speaking 1,000 to 20,000 doesn't seem like a Stress test, but going from CZE's 50 or so odd employee's to 1,000, that'll be a stress test.

Of course their hardware can't handle 20k people, when you do Alpha you don't gobble up server blades and install them. You do a small number and get just enough hardware to safely sustain your people you have on, that way you can know wether the bug is being caused by code, or if it's a problem because of server load. This test will probably let them know how far they can push a particular server, and will give them an idea of how many more people they can invite into the Alpha. If the test goes well and the servers they currently have will handle the $250 tiers, they'll let them in. If not, the $250 tiers will need to wait form them to order/get/install more hardware and then they can be let on.

You don't spend more money than you need to in game development, especially when on a budget. Yes they have 2.5 mil collectively from KS and Paypal, but that's all divided up in little pie pices on a big pie chart for seperate projects. They can't just throw their money in any which direction without care of what project it's coming out of.


I think it was a bold move with Cory letting us have alpha access, but they really needed to sit down and have a kickstarter update with more info about what an Alpha is than just "it'll be a lot of bugs"

How many of those 1000 people are on at the same time? I'd say 100-250 was a reasonably guess, sure there will have been times when there was more than that on at the same time, but I'd guess with 1000 people currently able to play on average there has probably been around 250ish online at the same time.

I'd agree with the other poster that having a stress test with just a few hundred people online at once doesn't look good for increasing the load any time soon.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 08:50 AM
In a chat the other day this is about what they said.

Oi vay. That stinks. I can't blame them though, all the negativity and people criticizing their process/game development is going to force their hand.

That really really stinks.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 08:52 AM
How many of those 1000 people are on at the same time? I'd say 100-250 was a reasonably guess, sure there will have been times when there was more than that on at the same time, but I'd guess with 1000 people currently able to play on average there has probably been around 250ish online at the same time.

I'd agree with the other poster that having a stress test with just a few hundred people online at once doesn't look good for increasing the load any time soon.

You'd say 100-250, on any given day that may be the case. That's why they're asking for a call to arms to notify people "Hey, please help us out and stress our server!"

I'm sure there will be a much larger turn out for that. Not EVERY SINGLE user, but I'd say easily 800+

Either way, we have no concrete evidence to prove otherwise that there aren't even more people online than that.

Vorpal
10-18-2013, 08:55 AM
The Health Care Exchanges got 700 million dollars and were in development for years, have been officially released for weeks, and are still incredibly buggy and unstable.

I think in comparison Hex is in pretty good shape.

I don't care at all about dates missed by a week or two. That is so normal as to not even be worth noticing.

Pick your poison:

1) No communication with the devs about what state the game is in or likely dates by which things will be done
2) Communication with the devs about when things will be done, but sometimes the date slips.

If you complain about missed dates, you are really saying "Please stop sharing information with me, because I'm incredibly whiny and will never ever be grateful".

Quasari
10-18-2013, 08:55 AM
How many of those 1000 people are on at the same time? I'd say 100-250 was a reasonably guess, sure there will have been times when there was more than that on at the same time, but I'd guess with 1000 people currently able to play on average there has probably been around 250ish online at the same time.

I'd agree with the other poster that having a stress test with just a few hundred people online at once doesn't look good for increasing the load any time soon.

Testing how it handles it will however show how efficient the server is with this load and will either tell them if it could handle more, if a bug is making it inefficient, or they need more hardware. I know a lot of testing happens vs ai as it's easier to set up and reproduce. I feel the initial load on it from wave 2 is going to be High due to that.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 09:01 AM
The Health Care Exchanges got 700 million dollars and were in development for years, have been officially released for weeks, and are still incredibly buggy and unstable.

I think in comparison Hex is in pretty good shape.

I don't care at all about dates missed by a week or two. That is so normal as to not even be worth noticing.

Pick your poison:

1) No communication with the devs about what state the game is in or likely dates by which things will be done
2) Communication with the devs about when things will be done, but sometimes the date slips.

If you complain about missed dates, you are really saying "Please stop sharing information with me, because I'm incredibly whiny and will never ever be grateful".

Where's the like button for the post or +1????

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No wait LOVE! YES LOVE THIS POST!

LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE

Icepick
10-18-2013, 09:08 AM
Pick your poison:

1) No communication with the devs about what state the game is in or likely dates by which things will be done
2) Communication with the devs about when things will be done, but sometimes the date slips.

If you complain about missed dates, you are really saying "Please stop sharing information with me, because I'm incredibly whiny and will never ever be grateful".

Bingo.

HyenaNipples
10-18-2013, 09:09 AM
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 09:21 AM
Lately Blizzard's been setting the bar pretty low for almost all their franchises they have under that umbrella of theirs.

The closest thing to Hex would be Hearthstone, and that is like comparing checkers to chess. Actually, it's more like comparing checkers to 3D Chess (#bigbangtheory).

WoW is a dumbed down version of it's former self, as is Diablo.

Starcraft, well, they did dumb it down a bit, but the core of the game wasn't changed so I still say that's a good game.


So yes, you're exactly right, this game won't come anywhere close to the quality of a blizzard game. And 10 years ago, that was a bad thing.

Now though, all I can say is thank god! That means Hex will actually be a very very good game if we're going to compare it to the slop Blizzard is passing off as their work nowadays.



Aww we think alike! Internet high five!

We'll those 3 games you mentioned all sold over 10 million copies. If that's what you call a bad game I think you might want to re-asses you definition. Don't get me wrong, I have high hopes for HEX but I'm not silly enough to call Blizzard games bad.

Ruomlig
10-18-2013, 09:23 AM
I must admit that I'm really confused as to what's going on here. If the current very low amount of people in the alpha can stress one of their servers, they're in big trouble. That would suggest the need for a massive upgrade before they could even have anything close to a workable situation for beta, much less release.

That and they seem to be focused on a very minor aspect of their game at the moment, which seems strange. I hear reports of people not being able to even log in, make decks, or finish pvp games. Would it really be game breaking if AI games were disabled? Why not focus on the more popular and central aspects of your game in the second week of alpha rather than the fringe aspects?

I'm really beginning to doubt CZE's ability to deliver a more reliable, less buggy, and more functional product than MTGO (which is a pretty broken piece of software in itself) or hearthstone. Hex is a great idea, but it seems like they're really bitten off more than they can chew here. I would have held my money back if I knew that alpha access wouldn't be granted until ~1.5-2 months after the start of alpha. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm not optimistic that we'll see a competitive product at the end of this process.

Grumph
10-18-2013, 09:30 AM
This thread is why alpha forums should be restricted to only alpha testers.

Marsden
10-18-2013, 09:31 AM
This thread is why alpha forums should be restricted to only alpha testers.

That's ..... a very good point. We're losing signal for actual Alpha reporting in the noise from everyone being able to post.

Raith
10-18-2013, 09:37 AM
Have some faith. Kickstarter backers took a risk in May on the game based on the huge potential. The risk of backing now is more a question of when you get in versus will the game be any good. This is alpha and hiccups are to be expected. However, I have played quite a bit the last week and it is incredibly fun (while being frustrating at the same time). If CZE comes close to meeting their goals this game will be amazing. Delays now are very minor in the grand scheme of the life of the game.

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 09:39 AM
I have to agree with the last 2 posters, multiple dates have been missed, not just one.

BUT I applaud them for doing it. I'd much rather have transparency of whats going on than a veiled off project with no info other than it's ready when it's ready.

The problem are the people that cirticize them for doing it, if people would be just more understanding of how game development works a lot more companies wouldn't have to resort to using such a closed off method of development.

Everytime you criticize CZE as a company for missing dates, or get upset about how Alpha is working/being handled is just one more statement that brings us that much closer to them just shutting us out completely on how development is going.

I mean hell, it's rather bad when they feel worried about letting us know about an upcoming patch that may be able to let them do a 2nd wave of invites just for the fear that if it falls through that people will get upset.

That doesn't speak anything about them, but us a community. So before you say anything negative about how their handling things and think that you can do it better, or another company can do it better, remember that those other companies were no where near as open as CZE is (well, was) in the development process.

And rather than trying to knock them for what they're doing right or wrong, applaud them for doing something no other companies has the balls to do.

Get over the fact that dates are being missed, or pushed back, or that you're not in Alpha because at the end of the day, the development process will take just as long if they had just completely shut us out and said "it'll be ready when it's ready". THANK THEM for letting us know what's going on and what they're working on and being transparent, don't mock and insult them!

I wish I could work for your boss because if my projects miss their deadline it's not a good day. Next time I'll let him know that people miss deadlines all the time and stay calm because it makes him look bad as a boss. Can I cite your work as a reason he shouldn't fire me if I miss multiple deadlines on a single project?

houjix
10-18-2013, 09:44 AM
I must admit that I'm really confused as to what's going on here. If the current very low amount of people in the alpha can stress one of their servers, they're in big trouble. That would suggest the need for a massive upgrade before they could even have anything close to a workable situation for beta, much less release.



The issue is they aren't seeing enough concurrent users to test the servers properly. They know that only X percentage of the players are on at one time so they want to get as many in there as possible at a prearranged time to see how things are truly holding up. Once they can ascertain how the servers can handle the stress loads, they can start letting more people in.

Most online games will boast huge subscriber or account numbers, but it's the average number of simultaneous logins that is important. Magic online purportedly has a couple hundred thousand accounts but only around 3000+ players logged in at given time.

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 09:46 AM
I'm really beginning to doubt CZE's ability to deliver a more reliable, less buggy, and more functional product than MTGO (which is a pretty broken piece of software in itself) or hearthstone. Hex is a great idea, but it seems like they're really bitten off more than they can chew here. I would have held my money back if I knew that alpha access wouldn't be granted until ~1.5-2 months after the start of alpha. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm not optimistic that we'll see a competitive product at the end of this process.

Most games don't offer Alpha access, because they don't want to expose themselves and the game to the public to openly criticize, where there is nothing to criticize. Alpha is alpha; aka full of bugs, instabilities, constant fixes and server crashes. That cze allowed us to gain Alpha access (and also stream an alpha version of the game) signals to me confidence and not incompetence; self-belief and not uncertainty; love to the community and not indifference.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 09:50 AM
We'll those 3 games you mentioned all sold over 10 million copies. If that's what you call a bad game I think you might want to re-asses you definition. Don't get me wrong, I have high hopes for HEX but I'm not silly enough to call Blizzard games bad.

Diablo, Riding off the coat tails of Diablo 2, anyone that's played D2 will instantly tell you D3 is lacking compared to the game was better by a long shot. Pretty obvious difference between the two. It would be insteresting if D3 had a subscription service that way you'd really see how many of those 10 million are still around. The difference in forum activity between in and WoW is HUGE.

WoW, just still there due to it's wild popularity from when it was a good game, once you start a reputation it's hard to lose it, the same 10 million that bought BC are not the same 10 million buying it today, Blizzard has a lot of churn in this game, for every 1 or so people it loses, it gains 1 person that thinks "Hey, I haven't tried this yet!" Then that person finds out it's terrible, and moves on and another person picks it up.

Then there's those that are just invested in it, doesn't really matter what direction the game does in, they're going to buy it (my irl friends are victims of this) which is where I was. I kept buying it because I'd had already spent so much time on in Vanilla and BC it seemed stupid to just quit! But I can only watch the game slowly go down hill for so long and quit.

There's a difference between a game that always selles 10 million copies and is stagnate and loses subs until another expansion is launched, and a game that sells 10 million copies and keeps growing. Not to mention all the Promo's for free leveled characters and vanity items they have to keep adding it to draw people back to it.

Any product that's doing that obviously is not doing very well. That means those 10 million people bought it, and didn't like it. So sells are a good number to spit out when you're trying to win an agrument since it doesn't show the full picture.


Again Starcraft wasn't really changed all that much, just more lore added basically, so that game they're still doing great with, I like SC2 a lot still.

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 09:53 AM
The Health Care Exchanges got 700 million dollars and were in development for years, have been officially released for weeks, and are still incredibly buggy and unstable.

I think in comparison Hex is in pretty good shape.

I don't care at all about dates missed by a week or two. That is so normal as to not even be worth noticing.

Pick your poison:

1) No communication with the devs about what state the game is in or likely dates by which things will be done
2) Communication with the devs about when things will be done, but sometimes the date slips.

If you complain about missed dates, you are really saying "Please stop sharing information with me, because I'm incredibly whiny and will never ever be grateful".

I fail too see how a system created to support 100+ million can be compared to one that can't support 1000.

But since you're using the government as an example I suppose you think us Americans should stop whining about the current shutdown too huh? So what they've missed the budget deadline by so much, we'll get it when we get it right?

MoikPEI
10-18-2013, 09:54 AM
That cze allowed us to gain Alpha access (and also stream an alpha version of the game) signals to me confidence and not incompetence; self-belief and not uncertainty; love to the community and not indifference.
Right now the Love is stuck at, like, 5%. Probably an undercurrent of jealousy exists. I know logically I haven't been slighted, but for some reason I have that emotion at this point. (I know being "That Guy" doesn't provide a benefit to anyone, but regardless, my upbringing has me in that position.)

Ruomlig
10-18-2013, 09:56 AM
The issue is they aren't seeing enough concurrent users to test the servers properly. They know that only X percentage of the players are on at one time so they want to get as many in there as possible at a prearranged time to see how things are truly holding up. Once they can ascertain how the servers can handle the stress loads, they can start letting more people in.

Most online games will boast huge subscriber or account numbers, but it's the average number of simultaneous logins that is important. Magic online purportedly has a couple hundred thousand accounts but only around 3000+ players logged in at given time.

They specifically stated that they're stress testing the AI servers, though. That's what confuses me more than anything else. Why are they concerned with the stability of the AI servers at this stage in the game? If what you're saying is true and they don't have enough concurrent users to really test their servers, first, they have a sure fire way to get more users in, that is of course, by sending out a wave of invites. Second, we'd better hope the servers don't die to this "stress test" because if they can't handle ~500 concurrent users, they're pretty much worthless.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 09:58 AM
I wish I could work for your boss because if my projects miss their deadline it's not a good day. Next time I'll let him know that people miss deadlines all the time and stay calm because it makes him look bad as a boss. Can I cite your work as a reason he shouldn't fire me if I miss multiple deadlines on a single project?


Yeah, that's not even close to what we're talking about here.

We're talking about a company missing dates for a consumer, not an employee missing dates for his/her employer.

Different relationship, and OBVIOUSLY it's handled entirely different.

Edit: Actually thinking more about it, the game development industry as a whole is handled a lot differnetly than almost every enviroment in terms of dates too, becuase it's understood through out the industry that dates get missed because unexpected things happen.

So again, its just entirely different.

Marsden
10-18-2013, 09:58 AM
If people can't understand that stress testing is all about starting with small numbers and small hardware and then scaling up one and/or the other to see how it multiplies up and scales then... well, you probably shouldn't be in an Alpha.

houjix
10-18-2013, 10:00 AM
If people can't understand that stress testing is all about starting with small numbers and small hardware and then scaling up one and/or the other to see how it multiplies up and scales then... well, you probably shouldn't be in an Alpha.

Apparently some think it should just be cranked to 11 right away.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 10:05 AM
If people can't understand that stress testing is all about starting with small numbers and small hardware and then scaling up one and/or the other to see how it multiplies up and scales then... well, you probably shouldn't be in an Alpha.

Exactly why I wished they had stated more about how an Alpha works rather than blanket statements of "it's buggy". There's so much more involve than that, and people are making the best assumptions they can by comparing it to how beta's are but they are two totally different animals...You just can't.

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 10:09 AM
Diablo, Riding off the coat tails of Diablo 2, anyone that's played D2 will instantly tell you D3 is lacking compared to the game was better by a long shot. Pretty obvious difference between the two. It would be insteresting if D3 had a subscription service that way you'd really see how many of those 10 million are still around. The difference in forum activity between in and WoW is HUGE.

WoW, just still there due to it's wild popularity from when it was a good game, once you start a reputation it's hard to lose it, the same 10 million that bought BC are not the same 10 million buying it today, Blizzard has a lot of churn in this game, for every 1 or so people it loses, it gains 1 person that thinks "Hey, I haven't tried this yet!" Then that person finds out it's terrible, and moves on and another person picks it up.

Then there's those that are just invested in it, doesn't really matter what direction the game does in, they're going to buy it (my irl friends are victims of this) which is where I was. I kept buying it because I'd had already spent so much time on in Vanilla and BC it seemed stupid to just quit! But I can only watch the game slowly go down hill for so long and quit.

There's a difference between a game that always selles 10 million copies and is stagnate and loses subs until another expansion is launched, and a game that sells 10 million copies and keeps growing. Not to mention all the Promo's for free leveled characters and vanity items they have to keep adding it to draw people back to it.

Any product that's doing that obviously is not doing very well. That means those 10 million people bought it, and didn't like it. So sells are a good number to spit out when you're trying to win an agrument since it doesn't show the full picture.


Again Starcraft wasn't really changed all that much, just more lore added basically, so that game they're still doing great with, I like SC2 a lot still.

Care to share where you pulled these numbers from? I'm assuming the hat you got it from is probably a bad source. Every player I know in wow has been playing for 6+ years. I'm assuming my guild isn't comprised of the only people in the game who have played WoW for more that 1 year.

With that in mind I can only assume your numbers about D3 are inaccurate as we'll. I would agree that many people that bought D3 because of D2 we're not happy with the game.

EntropyBall
10-18-2013, 10:15 AM
^ this

I don't expect wave 2 to go out before those issues are solved ^__^

Saying "they shouldn't add more people until they fix the bugs in the alpha" is silly. There will always be more bugs, its an alpha. Gotta say that the way people have reacted to this staggered alpha is really sad though. Seems like every thread on these forums is just people complaining now.

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 10:18 AM
Yeah, that's not even close to what we're talking about here.

We're talking about a company missing dates for a consumer, not an employee missing dates for his/her employer.

Different relationship, and OBVIOUSLY it's handled entirely different.

Edit: Actually thinking more about it, the game development industry as a whole is handled a lot differnetly than almost every enviroment in terms of dates too, becuase it's understood through out the industry that dates get missed because unexpected things happen.

So again, its just entirely different.

Government is ran by a different set of rules too. And yet for some "strange" reason people are complaining about this missed budget deadline. Don't they understand they're just the consumer in the equation? Who cares if they're unhappy with the missed deadlines. They'll get a bill when it's ready. Am I Right?

Marsden
10-18-2013, 10:19 AM
Saying "they shouldn't add more people until they fix the bugs in the alpha" is silly. There will always be more bugs, its an alpha.

I didn't say that. I said they shouldn't add more people until they fix the current bugs that are stopping people from being able to login or play and are requiring personal attention to resolve. If there's 50 people with the current problem and that scales up to 500 with more people added, that's a big problem. Ten times the personal attention required, same number of staff.

Vorpal
10-18-2013, 10:21 AM
I fail too see how a system created to support 100+ million can be compared to one that can't support 1000.

They expected about 50,000 users. Their budget was around 600-700 million. It's a complete mess, even post release. Basically unusable. Yet no one is being fired and the expectation is that eventually it will work properly.

I think when you compare that to Hex, which has a vastly smaller budget, Hex comes off looking pretty good. I think Alpha Hex is more stable and less buggy than post-release healthcare exchanges -which had a budget literally 200 times as large.

I'm not sure what set of standards you are holding Hex to, but it's not one widely in use. A date slipping in alpha by a week or two is absolutely completely unexceptional and unobjectionable.

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 10:32 AM
They expected about 50,000 users. Their budget was around 600-700 million. It's a complete mess, even post release. Basically unusable. Yet no one is being fired and the expectation is that eventually it will work properly.

I think when you compare that to Hex, which has a vastly smaller budget, Hex comes off looking pretty good. I think Alpha Hex is more stable and less buggy than post-release healthcare exchanges -which had a budget literally 200 times as large.

I'm not sure what set of standards you are holding Hex to, but it's not one widely in use. A date slipping in alpha by a week or two is absolutely completely unexceptional and unobjectionable.



So you're saying nobody is displeased of their inability to access the service? There is nobody, in your words, "whining" about not being able to get their healthcare because of bugs?

Rhuidan
10-18-2013, 10:33 AM
Everyone who complains needs to find out what the word, "Alpha," means in the context of game development. If you are so unhappy with the current state of the game then go fall into a deep hole and don't come out til beta. I am greatly looking forward to when they invite the rest of us to play/test this wonderful game. They need to fix stuff, it will get done. We will get invited, when bugs affecting the ability to test the game are solved.

I propose that anyone who complains about this in a very irrational manner needs to be blocked until beta, hopefully that will cool their heels.

Quasari
10-18-2013, 10:49 AM
Apparently no one understands that by everyone playing the AI there will be twice as many games going on than if PvP. Many pathetic thinkers in this thread...

Twice as many tables, plus the ai load. Plus we don't know if they're going to do any negative testing as well. Honestly, I would expect them to do many of these test over alpha.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 10:54 AM
Care to share where you pulled these numbers from? I'm assuming the hat you got it from is probably a bad source. Every player I know in wow has been playing for 6+ years. I'm assuming my guild isn't comprised of the only people in the game who have played WoW for more that 1 year.

With that in mind I can only assume your numbers about D3 are inaccurate as we'll. I would agree that many people that bought D3 because of D2 we're not happy with the game.

I can only base it off of personal experience, a majority of people I knew from Vanilla/BC stopped playing in wrath, another majority of those stopps in cata, and now I'm left with just a handfull of people I knew from the hundreds I had on my friends list and knew personally IRL. Every midnight release I go to in my town I never see any of the same faces except for my friends.

And those handfull that are left, they rarely even play, once a week, on tuesdays to do LFR so they get something out of their money they spend on that game becuase they just can't let it go. Another strictly only has an active account becuase his girlfriend begs him to play with her even though he despises the game.

I never said everyone quit playing from the olden days, I'm sure there are still a large number of people that have stuck it out, because they tend to as some of my friends have.

WoW is no different than D3, they keep buying it, and keep being disappointed, but there really isn't another fantasy style MMO that's worth a damn on the market right now.

WoW found a great niche with its fantasy realm, another good reason it's always going to carry a lot of subscribers is the way the art is done, like the character models, etc, and the way that it's playable on just about anything because the minimum requirements are set so low.

The game will always do well, anyone can play it with regardless of their computer, its designed to it will visually appeal to a large audience, and there's not really a lot of competition for the style its based off of.

Just becuase a game sells a lot of copies, or has a lot of subscribers doesn't make it a great game based on that alone.

Angry birds probably has more people playing it, does that make it a better game than WoW?

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 10:54 AM
Everyone who complains needs to find out what the word, "Alpha," means in the context of game development. If you are so unhappy with the current state of the game then go fall into a deep hole and don't come out til beta. I am greatly looking forward to when they invite the rest of us to play/test this wonderful game. They need to fix stuff, it will get done. We will get invited, when bugs affecting the ability to test the game are solved.

I propose that anyone who complains about this in a very irrational manner needs to be blocked until beta, hopefully that will cool their heels.

Some of us aren't whining about the Alpha.

I, for one, am whining about the whiners whining about other whiners whining about not being invited to the alpha.

In all seriousness though, most of the complaints are on how CZE handles the invites, not on the state of the alpha. There are numerous people who defend CZE by saying everyone should know what alpha means, but the evidence shows even CZE didn't truly understand the term Alpha either. The "promise", and I use that term loosely, during KS was that everyone squire and up gets Alpha access when it became available. It wasn't until months after KS ended that CZE themselves even realized that they were unprepared to support that promise.

Either way nobody is right or wrong. People have a right to be dissatisfied with the service, and people have a right to be dissatisfied with people complaining. This argument will go back and forth forever so anyone who actually thinks their being productive arguing that one side shouldn't behave a certain way isn't contributing anything to the game or the community. That includes this post but what can I say, I've got time to waste.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 11:14 AM
Government is ran by a different set of rules too. And yet for some "strange" reason people are complaining about this missed budget deadline. Don't they understand they're just the consumer in the equation? Who cares if they're unhappy with the missed deadlines. They'll get a bill when it's ready. Am I Right?


Different industry.

Can't compare Goverments entities to Game Development companies.

It's not like half the office is refusing to budge on an issue because the other half is trying to implement something to the game that they don't like.

Different monster entirely.

The person that brought it up was merely stating the government systems for the new healthcare system had a larger budget and were instrumented for a larger crowd (according to that post the crowd isn't even that much larger? I don't know where the 50,000 number came from) and they're having worse issues than Hex is.

But even that point speaks further than what you'd think it would, because this is the RELEASE version for this healthcare system we're seeing and it's in such dissary, Hex is in it's infancy, ALPHA, and it's fairing better at the moment, technically speaking. And I do mean technically literally.

And again, it's not like the government updated us with how things were going in the alpha/beta stages of that healthcare system, things could have been just as bad, or worse than how Hex is moving along. They could have had many delays and missed project dates. And I'm sure they did because that's how software development goes.

Don't get muddied up into the details of the politics, that has nothing to do with any of this, so I'd leave that out of this.

Rhuidan
10-18-2013, 11:15 AM
Some of us aren't whining about the Alpha.

I, for one, am whining about the whiners whining about other whiners whining about not being invited to the alpha.

In all seriousness though, most of the complaints are on how CZE handles the invites, not on the state of the alpha. There are numerous people who defend CZE by saying everyone should know what alpha means, but the evidence shows even CZE didn't truly understand the term Alpha either. The "promise", and I use that term loosely, during KS was that everyone squire and up gets Alpha access when it became available. It wasn't until months after KS ended that CZE themselves even realized that they were unprepared to support that promise.

Either way nobody is right or wrong. People have a right to be dissatisfied with the service, and people have a right to be dissatisfied with people complaining. This argument will go back and forth forever so anyone who actually thinks their being productive arguing that one side shouldn't behave a certain way isn't contributing anything to the game or the community. That includes this post but what can I say, I've got time to waste.

People on both sides are entitled to an opinion but when some posts get to the point of saying that they have been scammed, lied to or taken for fools for FUNDING, (not buying,) money to the kick starter, clearly these people require a small wake up call in the reality of game development and being a nice person in general. Luckily Cory himself has posted in one thread that I have seen, that users who , "troll," will be banned from the forums. this will hopefully level out the amount of unrealistic expectations believed by some people.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 11:25 AM
Some of us aren't whining about the Alpha.

I, for one, am whining about the whiners whining about other whiners whining about not being invited to the alpha.

In all seriousness though, most of the complaints are on how CZE handles the invites, not on the state of the alpha. There are numerous people who defend CZE by saying everyone should know what alpha means, but the evidence shows even CZE didn't truly understand the term Alpha either. The "promise", and I use that term loosely, during KS was that everyone squire and up gets Alpha access when it became available. It wasn't until months after KS ended that CZE themselves even realized that they were unprepared to support that promise.

Either way nobody is right or wrong. People have a right to be dissatisfied with the service, and people have a right to be dissatisfied with people complaining. This argument will go back and forth forever so anyone who actually thinks their being productive arguing that one side shouldn't behave a certain way isn't contributing anything to the game or the community. That includes this post but what can I say, I've got time to waste.

Well I applaud your honest at the end there ;)

I too have lots of time to waste! lol.

I would say that CZE didn't know what the term Alpha meant, a lot of the developers on their team are Ex-WoW developers, they most certainly know what Alpha means.

The difference with CZE though is they were transparent about their dates, and very confident in their team, and who wouldn't, they have some great people there working for them with awesome backgrounds in game development.

And as usual in the industry, things didn't work out. The problem is that they expected people to understand "that's how the cookie crumbles" with these things, and they don't.

The Beta by end of september is a pretty big biff, and if that's the ONLY thing people criticized, I'd tend to agree with them. But all this Alpha stuff people are whining about, them being optimisitic with their dates, just let it go, it's the nature of the beast.

CZE knew exactly what Alpha entailed, and they thought we did too and would understand there is no such thing as a firm date.

Their internal development dates is what they were providing us, a lot us just didn't have the knowledge that in alpha, nothing is final until it's final.

So now instead of providing us their dates that they're using themselves for their projects, we're left with nothing, because people take everything to be set in stone, because that's what every other company does in their development process, no word is released until they can confirm for sure it will happen (and even then there are blunders). And that's what people expect now, but CZE did it different, they're great people and nice and said hey, we'll let you follow us down this misty road to the castle (cory's castle in the mist) but at the first sign of problems people say wowowow, this isn't how it's done, what are you guys doing! I can't belive this!

They respected us enough as a community to be transparent and share this information with us, the least we could do is respect them to not knock them at every turn and be more understanding of how game development works.

hacky
10-18-2013, 11:26 AM
Bugs that show up when 50 people play AI games, will also show up when 5000 people play AI games.

A stress test doesn't need thousands of users to be a stress test.

Let CZE find any bugs that happen with the current set of alpha users, so they can fix them now, and be ready for the bugs that appear when the much larger group of users gets in.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 11:32 AM
Y'know what really funny though, about this whole development thing. Think about how bummed we all were about the beta in late september being missed.

There was a leaked document of the timeline for all the blizzard games and their projected release dates for them, and Titan was set for some time in 2014, so it was expected that at Blizzcon this year, it would be announced and they'd have lots of information about it for us.

What happend? About a month or two before blizzcon is announced, Blizzard releases a statement that Titan has been pushed back, and not by months. By YEARS.

People ALREADY knocked Blizzard hard and said the same things about them people are saying about CZE now.

Can you IMAGINE the backlash they'd have gotten if they went CZE's route from the get go and said hey, yeah, we're going to miss the beta by a few years now, sorry guys!

That's why no one ever, EVER. Releases information about development time frames, because the mass will not understand that's how it's done. That's the life of a game developer, and they will criticize that they could have done better, etc etc etc etc.

CZE is no different than any other developer. EXPECT DELAYS

Be happy we get (well, GOT now, /sigh) information so we can atleast see a light at the end of the tunnel, even if it means it dims from time to time.

Be happy we get Alpha access, this is a privilege that not everyone gets to experience. They didn't have to do this for us, but they did.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 11:34 AM
Bugs that show up when 50 people play AI games, will also show up when 5000 people play AI games.

A stress test doesn't need thousands of users to be a stress test.

Let CZE find any bugs that happen with the current set of alpha users, so they can fix them now, and be ready for the bugs that appear when the much larger group of users gets in.


This isn't to find bugs, this is to stress the servers to see how effecient they are at handling people at load, so they determine how much hardwaret they'll need for more people.

Along the way they could find bugs in the came that make the servers not so effecient at handling a large load, then they'll fix those, and have to stress test again to see how far they can be pushed.

Genreal bug testing is being done on the daily when people play. This isn't for that, it's to see how much higher they'll need to scale to let more people in.

beepharoni
10-18-2013, 11:42 AM
I don't know about everyone else, but I have played like 3 games against the AI... I don't think many people are playing the AI..

I tend to test a new deck against the AI before i play it against real people just to see how it performs against a "dumb" opponent. If the deck fails to perform the way I want it to, it gets revised. AI can be a useful tool, even if it plays very poorly.


Why not just check if the AI server can handle the next wave by letting in the next wave and seeing if it causes problems? If it does they can take it down and fix it, it is alpha after all. With the amount of crying and bitching that we see here with people who want to be in the alpha who aren't in. How much more crying and bitching do you think we will see if people are admitted to the alpha, and then revoked access based on "servers can't handle it". I for one don't even want to hear the waves of QQ that would come from that. bad idea.


CZE has horribly missed every goal timeline so far, I wouldn't expect much from them. Their inexperience in the video game developing department is really showing. It's not a knock on the game, just rookie mistakes. Hopefully they won't publicly say any more deadlines so they don't look bad when they don't come close to meeting it.

All things considered, I think they are doing a pretty good job. You have to keep in mind that they have built this game from the ground up, and have a lot of things that they are working on ASIDE From trying to get the server stable to get more people into the alpha. And pretty sure they have never promised that people will get anything by X date, they have said that these are tentative dates that they will attempt to meet, and if not things get delayed. I for one would MUCH rather have something that is more polished and works better, than be given a steaming pile of crap just because "today is the day that they said we would have it". Forcing more people than the game can handle into it just to please the people who don't have the alpha already isn't going to help them progress. It will cause a lot more problems than the one it will solve, which is shutting all the people who are talking about having to wait a few extra days/weeks to get their invite.



Pick your poison:

1) No communication with the devs about what state the game is in or likely dates by which things will be done
2) Communication with the devs about when things will be done, but sometimes the date slips.

If you complain about missed dates, you are really saying "Please stop sharing information with me, because I'm incredibly whiny and will never ever be grateful".

THIS! I agree whole heartedly. I want them to continue to share the information with us because it keeps us in the loop as to what is going on with the game that we have all pledged to help create. Let's be clear about that, we didn't BUY the game, we pledged money to a company in hopes that they could create the game.


They specifically stated that they're stress testing the AI servers, though. That's what confuses me more than anything else. Why are they concerned with the stability of the AI servers at this stage in the game? If what you're saying is true and they don't have enough concurrent users to really test their servers, first, they have a sure fire way to get more users in, that is of course, by sending out a wave of invites. Second, we'd better hope the servers don't die to this "stress test" because if they can't handle ~500 concurrent users, they're pretty much worthless.

I am no expert in this, but I think that the AI goes far beyond just playing against the computer. the AI is involved in PVP matches as well, because data has to exchange hands, cards have to be altered, health has to go down, etc etc. These are all things that are handled by the AI. (I could be wrong here, but that's just my understanding of what's happening).



Apparently no one understands that by everyone playing the AI there will be twice as many games going on than if PvP. Many pathetic thinkers in this thread...

This is pretty much hitting the nail right on the head. If 500 people show up, that's 1,000 games. if the server can handle 1,000 games with no hiccups and the servers don't crash or fail, this is a good step towards inviting more people. As someone who is already in the Alpha, i want to see MORE people in the game on a regular basis. Not just because it provides more opponents, and more chances to test the bugs out, but it gets us one step closer to that beta.

I just hope that things go well tonight. I for one will be there playing against the AI in hopes that we can prove that the servers ARE stable enough since that most recent patch. I'd love to have more of the positive members of the community to play / test with.

Sci3nce
10-18-2013, 11:58 AM
Different industry.

Can't compare Goverments entities to Game Development companies.

It's not like half the office is refusing to budge on an issue because the other half is trying to implement something to the game that they don't like.

Different monster entirely.

The person that brought it up was merely stating the government systems for the new healthcare system had a larger budget and were instrumented for a larger crowd (according to that post the crowd isn't even that much larger? I don't know where the 50,000 number came from) and they're having worse issues than Hex is.

But even that point speaks further than what you'd think it would, because this is the RELEASE version for this healthcare system we're seeing and it's in such dissary, Hex is in it's infancy, ALPHA, and it's fairing better at the moment, technically speaking. And I do mean technically literally.

And again, it's not like the government updated us with how things were going in the alpha/beta stages of that healthcare system, things could have been just as bad, or worse than how Hex is moving along. They could have had many delays and missed project dates. And I'm sure they did because that's how software development goes.

Don't get muddied up into the details of the politics, that has nothing to do with any of this, so I'd leave that out of this.

Please pardon my confusion, are you saying the 2 industries can or cannot be compared. Because you said you cannot compare them, then immediately went on to compare them. I'm not sure which you actually believe in.

Either way, the comparison of healthcare troubles vs HEX troubles is impossible without data on % of people unable to access healthcare systems and % of people unable to access the Alpha. Since neither numbers are publicly released, any conclusions from the comparison is 100% speculative and therefore completely irrelevant.

Showsni
10-18-2013, 12:00 PM
They specifically stated that they're stress testing the AI servers, though. That's what confuses me more than anything else. Why are they concerned with the stability of the AI servers at this stage in the game? If what you're saying is true and they don't have enough concurrent users to really test their servers, first, they have a sure fire way to get more users in, that is of course, by sending out a wave of invites. Second, we'd better hope the servers don't die to this "stress test" because if they can't handle ~500 concurrent users, they're pretty much worthless.

When I was in DT class at school, we made our own bridges and then stress tested them. That involved adding weight, say, 100g at a time, until the bridges broke - then we could write down how much weight the bridges could take. That's what a stress test is - you slowly increase the load until the bridge breaks, and then you know how much stress it can take. What you're suggesting is akin to putting the 10 kg weight on the bridge straight away, and seeing if it breaks. And if it does, what useful information has that given you? None. That's not a stress test.

Shaqattaq
10-18-2013, 12:05 PM
Our engineering team has decades of experience and they've worked on some of the biggest video games (and consoles) in the world, some in senior positions. Please trust that the team knows what they need in order to be successful and do their jobs. The stress test is important, so please help them be able to gather the information they need.

Rhuidan
10-18-2013, 12:15 PM
I believe! in CZE!

Just let them work and they will invite when it is safe to do so.

tautologico
10-18-2013, 12:34 PM
I can only base it off of personal experience, a majority of people I knew from Vanilla/BC stopped playing in wrath, another majority of those stopps in cata, and now I'm left with just a handfull of people I knew from the hundreds I had on my friends list and knew personally IRL. Every midnight release I go to in my town I never see any of the same faces except for my friends.

This is a typical bias of old timers to a game like WoW. Just because they don't play anymore, the game is "rubbish". It's interesting because I played for a few years from the end of Vanilla to Cataclysm, and when talking with a lot of players I always asked them what was the their preferred time in the game, and the answers varied a lot. Generally it has more to do with the time the player started with the game or the time the player managed to get into a good raid group for the first time. After that the game inevitably feels less fresh and there's a lot of repetition in gameplay, the player starts to burnout. But the repetition isn't new; it was always there, but as long as the player is discovering new things she doesn't notice it so much. People get tired of the game, but this is not necessarily the fault of the game.

Vanilla was great for its time but it was incredibly tedious in some aspects, and many old-timers recognize that. Since then every expansion changes a lot of stuff; some are improvements, some not. In many cases, it's a subjective matter if it really improves the game or not. Lots of accessibility changes and streamlining, but this is not necessarily "dumbing down" (I don't like people who overuse this expression, but there's not much to do). Complexity is not depth. I haven't played Pandaria but people that I trust said it is a great expansion.

As for Diablo 3 I think it's (almost) a great game actually, but it had a major issue with itemization and the loot drops, mostly caused by the Auction House (real money or not). Considering the console versions don't have an Auction House, and that the AH will be removed from the PC version as well, I think it will finally be as good as it can be.

In any case, every Blizzard game is incredibly polished and well-made, even if you don't agree with their particular design decisions. And I think we should leave the "dumbing down" accusations for trolls and fanboys. It is not conductive to good discussion.

Yuriken
10-18-2013, 01:12 PM
Hi Guys - can we talk about the patch now?

I'm bugged and can't play because of deck/collection issues - perhaps someone could answer for me...

Have some of the card-specific bugs been fixed? I'm thinking about Blessing the Fallen, Construction Plans: War Hulk, and many others.

How is the stability? Do more games complete now? How's that Pass Priority stuff working?

Ebynfel
10-18-2013, 01:28 PM
Care to share where you pulled these numbers from? I'm assuming the hat you got it from is probably a bad source. Every player I know in wow has been playing for 6+ years. I'm assuming my guild isn't comprised of the only people in the game who have played WoW for more that 1 year.

With that in mind I can only assume your numbers about D3 are inaccurate as we'll. I would agree that many people that bought D3 because of D2 we're not happy with the game.

Remember, most people who got D3 at launch, got it for free as part of the 1 year sub from WoW. Every single person I know irl who has played D3 got it that way.

phyzycs
10-18-2013, 01:38 PM
Our engineering team has decades of experience and they've worked on some of the biggest video games (and consoles) in the world, some in senior positions. Please trust that the team knows what they need in order to be successful and do their jobs. The stress test is important, so please help them be able to gather the information they need.

This is pretty much what needs to be understood by all of the back seat developers in this thread.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 01:39 PM
This is a typical bias of old timers to a game like WoW. Just because they don't play anymore, the game is "rubbish". It's interesting because I played for a few years from the end of Vanilla to Cataclysm, and when talking with a lot of players I always asked them what was the their preferred time in the game, and the answers varied a lot. Generally it has more to do with the time the player started with the game or the time the player managed to get into a good raid group for the first time. After that the game inevitably feels less fresh and there's a lot of repetition in gameplay, the player starts to burnout. But the repetition isn't new; it was always there, but as long as the player is discovering new things she doesn't notice it so much. People get tired of the game, but this is not necessarily the fault of the game.

Vanilla was great for its time but it was incredibly tedious in some aspects, and many old-timers recognize that. Since then every expansion changes a lot of stuff; some are improvements, some not. In many cases, it's a subjective matter if it really improves the game or not. Lots of accessibility changes and streamlining, but this is not necessarily "dumbing down" (I don't like people who overuse this expression, but there's not much to do). Complexity is not depth. I haven't played Pandaria but people that I trust said it is a great expansion.

As for Diablo 3 I think it's (almost) a great game actually, but it had a major issue with itemization and the loot drops, mostly caused by the Auction House (real money or not). Considering the console versions don't have an Auction House, and that the AH will be removed from the PC version as well, I think it will finally be as good as it can be.

In any case, every Blizzard game is incredibly polished and well-made, even if you don't agree with their particular design decisions. And I think we should leave the "dumbing down" accusations for trolls and fanboys. It is not conductive to good discussion.

tl;dr: off-topic just skip over it :D

I still have an active account because my friends begged me to keep it, I still try the new content because my friends beg me too so for a few hours every tuesday I log in with a grimace on my face and soldier through for the sake if friendship, so I haven't quit, but I have in my eyes because I do not raid/play in the same capacity I use to. I guess I should say Im partially retired? lol.

Uh yes. The game feels dumbed down, a lot more things are spelt out now for you, and many many things are a lot easier than they were before. And for some I'm sure that's a welcomed change, and for others it isn't.

I played through Vanilla, BC, and Wrath without ever feeling "burned out", and that's after all my friends partically died off from the start of Wrath. It was still Fresh, things were still somewhat difficult, and raiding in a Hardcore guild used to mean something. That's not to say they didn't make changes I didn't like, Dungeon queue'ing, not a fan, ruins the social aspect of the game intra-server, and ruined world pvp. Horrible change IMO. I get why they did it though, that's what the mass wanted, and the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

The raids have become lackluster, there really is no more lore that ties into the original Warcraft RTS games, it just feels like they're making it up as they go.

Every expansion brought good changes, and it brought bad changes IMO. The game is easier than it was, that's why I say it's dumbed down. They spell things out for people now too, when they use to not. And again, that's create for a game development company, that means it'll appeal to a larger crowd. But to appeal to a large crowd they alienated the people that liked it status quo.

A lot of the changes they made make perfect business sense. And I agree, they do make well polished games. They really really do. And I apologize for saying dumbing down, even in this post I did, but I can't think of anything different to use, that's just how I feel about it wether it be condescending to some or not. That isn't my inention, but that's how I express my distaste for the direction the games gone in. :(

It's been my experience more often than not that the veteran players miss the days of old, not that they thank blizzard for just improving on an already better game. I don't think the newer generation understand what they missed out on, they don't know any better so they just accept whats given to them becuase it's all they know.

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 01:49 PM
Please pardon my confusion, are you saying the 2 industries can or cannot be compared. Because you said you cannot compare them, then immediately went on to compare them. I'm not sure which you actually believe in.

Either way, the comparison of healthcare troubles vs HEX troubles is impossible without data on % of people unable to access healthcare systems and % of people unable to access the Alpha. Since neither numbers are publicly released, any conclusions from the comparison is 100% speculative and therefore completely irrelevant.

I'm comparing the government developing their software, systems, what have you to Hex developing their software, systems, and what have you.

What I'm NOT doing is comparing the way the Government handles it, and how it operates, to how Hex handles their stuff or operate its.

Basically saying, the government had problems developing their stuff, but we didn't know about, Hex had problems developing their stuff and we know about it.

Whats the constant? Both had problems in development because that is what happens, and it should be expected.


Remember, most people who got D3 at launch, got it for free as part of the 1 year sub from WoW. Every single person I know irl who has played D3 got it that way.


That's how me and my fiance got ours :D

Soldack
10-18-2013, 01:49 PM
Citation needed.


I will wait until after next week to elobarate, but I think Corey will do so...

"Now, A Note From Cory

Hi Everyone! So I wanted to jump in and let you know that we have some exciting news coming next week, "

Cory_Jones
10-18-2013, 01:58 PM
In a chat the other day this is about what they said.

no no no...
we are actively trying to fix the things we have found that create show stopping events, we are working hard on it and we are getting close, as soon as we have this figured out we will bring in more people, it should be soon

Gwaer
10-18-2013, 02:04 PM
Thanks for reiterating cory. It's important people who have not interacted with you guys to understand how passionate you all are about coming through for everyone. I knew you'd not be backing off that promise, it's just very difficult to explain how I know that =)

ouphie
10-18-2013, 02:05 PM
we are actively trying to fix the things we have found that create show stopping events, we are working hard on it and we are getting close, as soon as we have this figured out we will bring in more people, it should be soon

Are we talking Blizzard "soon" ;). All joking aside, I'm anxious to get in and start breaking things, but I know there will still be plenty of bugs to squash once us lowly knights get in. Good luck with the stress test tonight :).

Hemotherapy
10-18-2013, 02:14 PM
no no no...
we are actively trying to fix the things we have found that create show stopping events, we are working hard on it and we are getting close, as soon as we have this figured out we will bring in more people, it should be soon

I can see the ex-blizzard employee in you now! Hopefully Soon is CZE soon and not Blizzard Titan project soon

I jest I jest!

Thanks for dropping in and saying that Cory, you're da bestest.


Thanks for reiterating cory. It's important people who have not interacted with you guys to understand how passionate you all are about coming through for everyone. I knew you'd not be backing off that promise, it's just very difficult to explain how I know that =)

Sir, less chatty chatty on the forums more streamy streamy on twitch please!

You're my favorite out of the bunch that do stream but I feel like you're the one that steams the least!

Edit: That or I just keep missing your somehow :(

Soldack
10-18-2013, 02:46 PM
no no no...
we are actively trying to fix the things we have found that create show stopping events, we are working hard on it and we are getting close, as soon as we have this figured out we will bring in more people, it should be soon

Thanks for clarifying! You just made a lot of folks VERY happy. :)

Vengus
10-18-2013, 02:53 PM
I can see the ex-blizzard employee in you now! Hopefully Soon is CZE soon and not Blizzard Titan project soon

I jest I jest!

Thanks for dropping in and saying that Cory, you're da bestest.

Only if they removed the Blizzard restraining bolt.

Zarien
10-18-2013, 03:03 PM
no no no...
we are actively trying to fix the things we have found that create show stopping events, we are working hard on it and we are getting close, as soon as we have this figured out we will bring in more people, it should be soon

Thanks for coming in and clearing up that part Cory.

Also,

I'm not sure why the discussion transgressed the way it did and how it got off-topic. But can we just leave it at that? We've pretty much beat the topic into submission by this point. There isn't much reason to continue it. The conjectures about the CZE testing process are going to be varied, and sometimes opposing. But in the end, this is their process. They know what needs to be done based off our bug reporting, they're working on it, and no matter what you or I think we know needs to be done, or how it could be better, in reality, unless you're an employee, you're stalking Cory or one of the CZE employees waiting to get the scoop on the bear wrestling, we don't. Let the team do their job and if we see some crazy bug, or we think of some awesome interaction or feature, let them know. But lets leave the assumptions and negative input, at the door, and outside of this pretty awesome community.

In the end, we need to remember, the kickstarter EXPLODED way beyond expectations. Originally we weren't expecting access for a LOT longer. Cory and the team responded to our enthusiasm and got caught up as well, and we were promised even more amazing features and access. So what if their time-line was a a little off? They expected to have more time and yet they still got an Alpha working for a bigger audience on the fly. They probably only originally planned Alpha for a smaller group or in-house before letting everyone in a week or two before beta, but they met our enthusiasm and worked insanely hard to get what they have to us so far.

We're still going to get everything we were promised, we're still going to get to test the game in Alpha and have way more time with the product before most people that come later, and we're getting all of this provided by an awesome team that has been SUPER transparent and amazing about their process, and have let us know upfront about their delays or where they are at. This isn't a common process among game companies. How many games have you seen the president and a lot of the team, actively interact with their future gaming community and be upfront about their process before Alpha is even out, and while Alpha is out? Heck, this isn't even one of those BS Alphas where you're actually playing a polished product that's two weeks away from Beta and your input isn't really needed, you're just making sure nothing is completely broken. This is a real alpha, so yes, there are going to be delays, there are going to be massive bugs, client crashes, new features that go bonkers, and downtime. But you know what?

At least we get to be part of it, with an awesome upfront team at the helm, that takes our input seriously. You're doing a great job CZE! Keep up the great work!

Tl;dr: Let's be patient, we don't know the process, and keep up the great work CZE!

Mahes
10-18-2013, 03:10 PM
Are we talking Blizzard "soon" ;). All joking aside, I'm anxious to get in and start breaking things, but I know there will still be plenty of bugs to squash once us lowly knights get in. Good luck with the stress test tonight :).

I just made a post around that term in another topic HAHAHA.

Inquitus
10-18-2013, 04:09 PM
Not accept!

Not only have I not got alpha access yet, I can't even use my mates GK access. I need my friday night fix of running 8 card escalation decks to pwn da n00bs who play with 60 cards.

Off to bed in disgust (or maybe because its midnight)

Yours in jest,

Inq

Ghii_Zhar
10-18-2013, 09:28 PM
Given the number of games from major publishers and developers that have been delayed far beyond their original launch day in the last couple of weeks alone, CZE missing their originally nebulous target date of "end of September" by a week is hardly what I would call a rookie mistake. Saying that they've "horribly missed" every date they've said is a MASSIVE exaggeration too, considering they've only actually concretely announced 1 date, and they only missed it by a day.
You accuse someone of trolling, but the only troll I see here is you.

Ditto!