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Karakadin
10-18-2013, 01:29 AM
So first off, let me say I am very very much committed to Hex. I pledged $500 and plan on spending an endless amount of hours in this game as it progresses, but so far these are my thoughts on what we can learn from both to make sure we create the best possible game in Hex.


1) As far as depth Hex seems to destroy hearthstone, I don't enjoy constructed in Hearthstone very much and it seems many feel the same way, so big +1 to the core mechanics/depth of Hex and it's first card set.


2) The Arena - The Arena in Hearthstone is BY FAR the most addictive form I've seen for a game like this in a long time. I think we would be extremely remiss to not include something very similar in Hex. I feel like the current Hex community naturally trends towards MTGO Formats but I think it would be very foolish for us to end up only having drafts and a few other formats for competitive limited. Your standard drafts albeit very fun can feel very "grindy" and offputting to new players, while something like Momir Vig is probably too casual for a lot of people. A format like the Arena is almost perfect, you get a ton of bang for your buck (play until 3 losses / 9 wins) and plenty of upside for people trying to competitively grind, I think this is something that Hex absolutely should do to not only appeal to a causal crowd they are trying to bring in but also just because it's an amazing format.


3) Daily quests - Haven't been in hearthstone too long but the daily quests are a decent option to keep people coming back for more, Hex may want to consider adding something like this to the PvE side to continue to bring people in while they get ready to play for real money / PvP.



That's it for now, only played Hearthstone for a few days but I do think there is a lot we can learn from them early on, and we shouldn't get so wrapped up in our superiority complex (although I think we clearly are ;p) that we can't see the great things they and the geniuses at Blizzard have put together, obviously they have shown they can make addicting/extremely successful games.

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 02:13 AM
Hex will be offering a marathon format which looks pretty similar to Arena in Hearthstone ;

This is like league play on steroids. Players will sign up for this sealed deck tournament and play as many games as they can within a 6 hour period. We’ll allow entries into the tournament at any time while it runs. As a catch up mechanic and to keep things interesting, we’ll let players buy an additional booster after each hour passes while the tournament runs.
We will track players’ total games and their number of wins. The win-loss differential is what we’ll use to track standings in real time. The tiebreaker is the total number of games played. After 6 hours the top 40% of players get prizes. There are 4 tiers for prizes: Top 1% of the players, 2%-5% of the players, 6%-15% of the players and 16%-40% of the players.

http://hextcg.com/game/tournaments/

As for daily quests, Cory has said in an interview that they are planning fun daily rewards/quests like being able to acquire via pve (and possibly other means) phantom vesrsion of cards, which you can then put to a wheel; you will get a spin of that wheel each time you login (probably once per day), with a chance to get a real copy of one of the socketed cards

http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:37:20

keroko
10-18-2013, 04:34 AM
I am certain the ties are strong between CZE and blizzard staff.

They'd have had to try real hard with intent questionable from the observer perspective to burn bridges.

They talk.

Glognar
10-18-2013, 05:23 AM
Hex will be offering a marathon format which looks pretty similar to Arena in Hearthstone ;

This is like league play on steroids. Players will sign up for this sealed deck tournament and play as many games as they can within a 6 hour period. We’ll allow entries into the tournament at any time while it runs. As a catch up mechanic and to keep things interesting, we’ll let players buy an additional booster after each hour passes while the tournament runs.
We will track players’ total games and their number of wins. The win-loss differential is what we’ll use to track standings in real time. The tiebreaker is the total number of games played. After 6 hours the top 40% of players get prizes. There are 4 tiers for prizes: Top 1% of the players, 2%-5% of the players, 6%-15% of the players and 16%-40% of the players.

http://hextcg.com/game/tournaments/

As for daily quests, Cory has said in an interview that they are planning fun daily rewards/quests like being able to acquire via pve (and possibly other means) phantom vesrsion of cards, which you can then put to a wheel; you will get a spin of that wheel each time you login (probably once per day), with a chance to get a real copy of one of the socketed cards

http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:37:20

While that 6 hour marathon sounds fun, not everybody has 6 hours free to play a game in one go.

I haven't played Hearthstone but somebody correct me if I'm wrong, you sign up to the arena and then play whenever you want until you have 9 wins or 3 losses. You don't have to play it all in one go. There is also no timer on the drafting and no passing of packs, your pool of cards is individually selected, not shared among however many other players.

Niedar
10-18-2013, 05:24 AM
Yes, that is how it works. That is one of the major advantages of the arena in hearthstone that you only have to play one match at a time instead of dedicating many hours to it. So even if they didn't introduce the type of drafting that is in hearthstone they could create a format like that based on sealed.

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 05:41 AM
How about swiss draft then ?

1)Swiss draft

Swiss is a draft tournament format where you can continue playing even if you lose (unlike the single elimination tournament format). Prizes in this tournament are awarded to anyone with at least 1 win. As such, this is a very forgiving environment to learn to draft, get the most play for your buck, or try out new draft strategies. We recommend that players who are new to drafting try this queue first.

http://hextcg.com/game/tournaments/

2)what is a swiss system

A Swiss-system tournament is a tournament format involving several rounds of competition where the winners are the players with the highest aggregate of points earned from each round. Players meet one to one in each round and are paired using a pre-determined formula to match players with similar skill (though they may be paired by random draw)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament

Since in hearthstone you need a 9-3 record to claim any rewards, a similar record at swiss draft (depending on the number of players), could gain you rewards as well.

3)How Arena in Hearthstone works

The Arena is where skill and luck can lead you to rewards. Here you get the opportunity to play with random cards that you do not own. This is commonly know as "Draft" play in trading card games. Players get random cards and chose the best of them to make a deck and battle it out to get nine wins without getting three losses. It should be noted that you don't get to keep any of the cards you play with in an Arena game. However, you can earn extra reward cards by playing arena for your collection. The arena costs $1.99 USD or 150 in game gold to play one round (up to three losses or nine wins). Currently the first round you play will be free, but you will have to buy your way into every match after that. Winning at least seven games before being eliminated can guarantee that you will earn your entry fee back in gold. Unlike the draft formats of other games, everyone's pool of cards are individually selected and not shared or passed on to any other players, thus there is no timer for choosing cards while drafting.


http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Arena

jetah
10-18-2013, 06:07 AM
I'm personally tired of dailies. however i've played WoW for 7 years, Rift 2 years. I just want something different. I know the Spectral Lotus Garden will be something like a daily login reward and I hope I can deal with that.

Glognar
10-18-2013, 06:28 AM
aye swiss draft is probably similar but again you need to be around for a few hours to play it, I think the good thing about Hearthstone arena is it caters for people who don't have a few hours to kill but only time for one game, they can pay to play a draft format with the potential for winnings but not have to commit several hours in one go.

keldrin
10-18-2013, 06:31 AM
I'm personally tired of dailies. however i've played WoW for 7 years, Rift 2 years. I just want something different. I know the Spectral Lotus Garden will be something like a daily login reward and I hope I can deal with that.
Yeah, but if you are really short on time, it's a quick bounce in and out of the game.
And, if it's to annoying, or you don't feel you're using it enough, you will likely be able to get a good price for your lotus garden.

Shadowspawn
10-18-2013, 06:37 AM
Sounds like a great thing to wish for... however, let's have guilds, PVE, and a solid tourney system first please.

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 06:39 AM
I'm personally tired of dailies. however i've played WoW for 7 years, Rift 2 years. I just want something different. I know the Spectral Lotus Garden will be something like a daily login reward and I hope I can deal with that.

Yeah that's how Cory feels too Jetah; he wants his dailies fun and innovative and not something that you will feel obligated to do over and over again on a daily basis. Spectral lotus is one (you will only need to login ) and phantom cards is a pve drop (or even a chest drop), that you will socket in a wheel, and you will get a spin of that wheel upon loging in

Soldack
10-18-2013, 07:26 AM
Yeah that's how Cory feels too Jetah; he wants his dailies fun and innovative and not something that you will feel obligated to do over and over again on a daily basis. Spectral lotus is one (you will only need to login ) and phantom cards is a pve drop (or even a chest drop), that you will socket in a wheel, and you will get a spin of that wheel upon loging in

How do I get a spectral lotus garden?

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 07:34 AM
How do I get a spectral lotus garden?

You can't directly buy one past KS (it was an exclusive reward to kings and up tier KS backers); the only way will be at the game's AH, once that AH is available.

wutae
10-18-2013, 07:51 AM
THe solution is pretty simple, create a Sealed Deck, and have the "same" 9 wins 3 losses rule. You dont have to play all the games, you just play whenever you feel like. The only downside for this is that Hearthstone HAS the playerbase to support 24/7 players and very low queue timers, with all these formats and a lot lower playerbase it will be hard for cryptozoic.

mudkip
10-18-2013, 07:54 AM
The arena format for Draft wouldnt really work with Hex. If you did an arena format for Sealed - that would work and be awesome! Entry is X decks + prize money, make the best deck you can out of the decks, then same format as Arena.

Vorpal
10-18-2013, 07:57 AM
I'd like to give Hearthstone a try while waiting for hex, but I am still not in the beta :(

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 08:07 AM
THe solution is pretty simple, create a Sealed Deck, and have the "same" 9 wins 3 losses rule. You dont have to play all the games, you just play whenever you feel like. The only downside for this is that Hearthstone HAS the playerbase to support 24/7 players and very low queue timers, with all these formats and a lot lower playerbase it will be hard for cryptozoic.

Yeap if you wish to emulate hearthstone's arena, leagues will be the best way to do it;

Leagues! Imagine an interface that allows you to custom craft your very own league. Pick and choose all the options of your league, what format, how long it will run, who can play in it, what the prizes will be. This simple and intuitive tool will allow you completely customize the league.

update #11 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=9

As for the playerbase, i think that given time hex will have a decent playerbase to support any tournament.

Berkhtar
10-18-2013, 09:50 AM
3) Daily quests - Haven't been in hearthstone too long but the daily quests are a decent option to keep people coming back for more, Hex may want to consider adding something like this to the PvE side to continue to bring people in while they get ready to play for real money / PvP.


Think this is the biggest problem: Many players do not know or do not want to understand that TCGs are expensive. If you do not spend money for PvP... you are basically lost. You are simply worse than your opponents.

And that is what is called P2W... normal for a TCG... but if there is no way to acquire boosters except buying them... I predict that HEX will get problems finding players. PvE is great, I think lots of people will hang around there because this does not cost... but PvP is generally the core of this game... and in all other late releases you can get at least a single booster per day by daily quests (HS, Solforge).

felmare
10-18-2013, 09:53 AM
I actually do think a tournament mode similar to hearthstones would be very fun and beneficial to Hex. being able to pop in and pop out of the personal tournament would be very nice because i am frequently short on time.

Rhuidan
10-18-2013, 10:46 AM
How about swiss draft then ?

1)Swiss draft

Swiss is a draft tournament format where you can continue playing even if you lose (unlike the single elimination tournament format). Prizes in this tournament are awarded to anyone with at least 1 win. As such, this is a very forgiving environment to learn to draft, get the most play for your buck, or try out new draft strategies. We recommend that players who are new to drafting try this queue first.

http://hextcg.com/game/tournaments/

2)what is a swiss system

A Swiss-system tournament is a tournament format involving several rounds of competition where the winners are the players with the highest aggregate of points earned from each round. Players meet one to one in each round and are paired using a pre-determined formula to match players with similar skill (though they may be paired by random draw)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament

Since in hearthstone you need a 9-3 record to claim any rewards, a similar record at swiss draft (depending on the number of players), could gain you rewards as well.

3)How Arena in Hearthstone works

The Arena is where skill and luck can lead you to rewards. Here you get the opportunity to play with random cards that you do not own. This is commonly know as "Draft" play in trading card games. Players get random cards and chose the best of them to make a deck and battle it out to get nine wins without getting three losses. It should be noted that you don't get to keep any of the cards you play with in an Arena game. However, you can earn extra reward cards by playing arena for your collection. The arena costs $1.99 USD or 150 in game gold to play one round (up to three losses or nine wins). Currently the first round you play will be free, but you will have to buy your way into every match after that. Winning at least seven games before being eliminated can guarantee that you will earn your entry fee back in gold. Unlike the draft formats of other games, everyone's pool of cards are individually selected and not shared or passed on to any other players, thus there is no timer for choosing cards while drafting.


http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Arena

Not trying to be mean but I think you are missing the point slightly Shadowelf from your first two posts. While we have all these varieties of drafts available, the arena functions in a form that if you have 20 mins to play, you can pay your entry and start drafting with no time limit. If you leave halfway through your drafting or leaving after playing a game 5 in your series of arena games, you can come back two days later and pick up exactly where you left off. This is very nice for people who might have a kid and are suddenly called away or something unexpected happens or maybe want to play 20-30 mins in the morning before work. It allows for a more flexible playing experience for others who might not have 3-6 hours to dedicate to a tournament style.

While you could say, "Why not play constructed then?," I for one am a huge fan of tournaments and drafts and don't like constructed myself. This gives someone the ability to work towards winning rewards, whatever your time frame could be.

Edit: After seeing your third post Shadowelf I get the same feeling. While there is the option to play user created leagues in time, I for one would love the same system supported in a format play that also earns the qualifier points and the ability to earn rewards like the drafting and other tournament play formats and allows for pick up at any time of the day.

Rhuidan
10-18-2013, 10:52 AM
THe solution is pretty simple, create a Sealed Deck, and have the "same" 9 wins 3 losses rule. You dont have to play all the games, you just play whenever you feel like. The only downside for this is that Hearthstone HAS the playerbase to support 24/7 players and very low queue timers, with all these formats and a lot lower playerbase it will be hard for cryptozoic.

The users will come in time. This game is excellent and the userbase will grow come open beta/release. This game is already different with all the mechanics it can offer versus a physical form as well as being cheaper for packs, entering tournaments etc.
This game will pick up in popularity and users.

Glognar
10-18-2013, 11:11 AM
Not trying to be mean but I think you are missing the point slightly Shadowelf from your first two posts. While we have all these varieties of drafts available, the arena functions in a form that if you have 20 mins to play, you can pay your entry and start drafting with no time limit. If you leave halfway through your drafting or leaving after playing a game 5 in your series of arena games, you can come back two days later and pick up exactly where you left off. This is very nice for people who might have a kid and are suddenly called away or something unexpected happens or maybe want to play 20-30 mins in the morning before work. It allows for a more flexible playing experience for others who might not have 3-6 hours to dedicate to a tournament style.

While you could say, "Why not play constructed then?," I for one am a huge fan of tournaments and drafts and don't like constructed myself. This gives someone the ability to work towards winning rewards, whatever your time frame could be.

Edit: After seeing your third post Shadowelf I get the same feeling. While there is the option to play user created leagues in time, I for one would love the same system supported in a format play that also earns the qualifier points and the ability to earn rewards like the drafting and other tournament play formats and allows for pick up at any time of the day.

That was the point I was trying to make, while all these different formats etc. are nice, I would like a tournament draft/limited/constructed whatever where I don't have to set aside 1,2,3 whatever hours at once to play. I have a kids, wife, cat , work etc. that get in the way I never know when my next 20 mins to an hour are around just for me to play a game.

An official format that allowed me to draft or play one game, then disappear and come back in a few hours/days time and play a second game would be perfect, just like Hearthstones arena system. If you win 7,8,9 games before your three losses you get a prize. Nice and simple and caters for people without several hours to sit and do nothing but play Hex.

Rhuidan
10-18-2013, 11:18 AM
That was the point I was trying to make, while all these different formats etc. are nice, I would like a tournament draft/limited/constructed whatever where I don't have to set aside 1,2,3 whatever hours at once to play. I have a kids, wife, cat , work etc. that get in the way I never know when my next 20 mins to an hour are around just for me to play a game.

An official format that allowed me to draft or play one game, then disappear and come back in a few hours/days time and play a second game would be perfect, just like Hearthstones arena system. If you win 7,8,9 games before your three losses you get a prize. Nice and simple and caters for people without several hours to sit and do nothing but play Hex.

100% with you :). I will be doing a whole lot of drafting but the more cultists.. people we can get to play this wonderful game, in whatever level of addiction that may be, will be a bonus!

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 11:34 AM
100% with you :). I will be doing a whole lot of drafting but the more cultists.. people we can get to play this wonderful game, in whatever level of addiction that may be, will be a bonus!

At my previous examplles i have tried to show formats in hex that have similarities to hearthstone's Arena; but yeah i slightly missed the fact that what you guys really wanted is a format without time contraints. As i said one way to do this is with customizing your own league. The other is dungeons and particularly the arena. The Arena will be a a dungeon that you will be drafting your way in it and being a dungeon, you can come and go as you wish (your progress will be saved).

http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:12:48
http://hextcg.com/enter-the-arena/

I don't know whether hex will have a similar to Arena sanctioned format, but it's fun and it doesn't sound too hard to implement

Rhuidan
10-18-2013, 12:10 PM
At my previous examplles i have tried to show formats in hex that have similarities to hearthstone's Arena; but yeah i slightly missed the fact that what you guys really wanted is a format without time contraints. As i said one way to do this is with customizing your own league. The other is dungeons and particularly the arena. The Arena will be a a dungeon that you will be drafting your way in it and being a dungeon, you can come and go as you wish (your progress will be saved).

http://www.thehexvault.com/blog/2013/09/02/dragoncon-2013-hextcg-pve-design-panel/ check 0:12:48
http://hextcg.com/enter-the-arena/

I don't know whether hex will have a similar to Arena sanctioned format, but it's fun and it doesn't sound too hard to implement

In no way do I mean to say you were wrong in any sense. You were very helpful and I see you around the forums quite a bit!
The only problem with the league is that is all user run. So you are missing out on the, "organized play," format they have set-up for the constructed/draft queues and qualifier points, as well as rewards might not be the same as the ones you can win from CZE sanctioned tournaments.

The arena looks nice but again is PvE.

A PvP-based arena mode where you can earn your qualifier points, receive prizes that are CZE promoted and play at anytime of the day for however long you have available would be a great feature, imo, for those with constrained time tables.

I think it would be a big hit for both pros and casuals alike. I know it is a huge hit in the hearthstone crowd and I agree with you that it can't be to terribly hard to implement later as an additional format.

BongoBong
10-18-2013, 12:31 PM
I definitely agree that the ability to play your games at your own time would be a great addition to a drafting format. On top of that, I also think something very nice about the hearthstone arena is the ability to play the drafting format at a reduced cost. Being a digital game its possible to allow us to play with cards that are not permanent, so its possible to draft from a large pool of cards, without keeping all the cards. This would allow a much cheaper drafting experience with the downside you are not keeping the cards you choose, but could still win something depending on how you do.

A hearthstone like arena is definitely more accessible due to the limited time constraints and reduced costs, which I think would make it a format that gets way more players then regular drafting would. The obvious downside though is it could cannibalize regular drafting numbers.

Edit. As a random aside. I just received a hearthstone beta invite right after making this post. Try your luck!

Rhuidan
10-18-2013, 01:20 PM
I definitely agree that the ability to play your games at your own time would be a great addition to a drafting format. On top of that, I also think something very nice about the hearthstone arena is the ability to play the drafting format at a reduced cost. Being a digital game its possible to allow us to play with cards that are not permanent, so its possible to draft from a large pool of cards, without keeping all the cards. This would allow a much cheaper drafting experience with the downside you are not keeping the cards you choose, but could still win something depending on how you do.

A hearthstone like arena is definitely more accessible due to the limited time constraints and reduced costs, which I think would make it a format that gets way more players then regular drafting would. The obvious downside though is it could cannibalize regular drafting numbers.

Edit. As a random aside. I just received a hearthstone beta invite right after making this post. Try your luck!

Still waiting for mine :( lol.

I really don't think numbers will be an issue, this game will do well.

Soth
10-18-2013, 03:04 PM
arena format ala hearthstone would be great. Also, going forward online TCGs are going to be including this format I expect. This format is great because it has PvP and you can pick up and play whenever. If it were included, it would likely quickly become one of the most popular formats imo.

Karakadin
10-18-2013, 03:13 PM
Yea so I think some people are missing the point, although a Marathon is cool it does NOT cater to the casual gamer at all... in any sense. Dungeon also PvE, PvE albeit fun won't have the re playability that a PvP format will.

A Sealed psuedo-arena is a good idea, BUT, it is very expensive, and therefore inaccessible to many or at least only "1x per week" or something, which makes it lose it's addictiveness. Imo the best solution to this would be something like this:


Arena tickets: $0.25 per arena ticket, 10x to get into the arena (Hearthstone has gold, 150 to get in, but the main point is that you can win fractions of an arena entry while playing through, so you need to have enough of them to make the fractions make sense for the company).


Traditional sealed, but you do NOT keep the cards, your simply creating an arena deck. (Although if we could implement something like the HS Arena does it would be even better, you pick 1 of 3 cards X times and then it auto-loads mana in for you. Cards are based around the class/colors/style that you pick, maybe you can decide ahead of time).


Play your matches whenever you choose, it's open ended. So you can play 9-11 straight, or play 1 per day until you have 3 losses or 9 wins.

Prizes something like this:

1 win: 1 minor chest
2 wins: 2 minor chests
3 wins: 1 medium chest
4 wins: 1 medium 1 minor chest
5 wins: 2 medium chests
6 wins: 1 rare chest
7 wins: 1 rare chest 1 medium chest
8 wins: 1 rare chest and 50% chance of legendary/50% rare chest for 2nd
9 wins: 2 rare chests ,1 legendary chest


minor chests have 20% chance to give 1-3 arena tickets, 20% 4-5 arena tickets, 60% 3 cards (uncommon or below)
normal chests: 20% 2-4 arena tickets, 20% 5-6 arena tickets, 60% 3 cards (10% rare, 60% uncommon, 30% common chances)
rare chest: 20% 3-5 arena tickets, 20% 6-7 arena tickets, 60% 3 cards (20% rare, 60% uncommon, 20% common)
legendary chest: 40% 10 arena tickets, 40% 1 booster pack, 20% 3 cards (5% mythic, 55% rare, 40% uncommon)



Just made up the prizes, I'm sure with more thought they can balance it so they make enough $ per arena and the economy doesn't get flooded, but something like that, something where on average you get a bit less than the arena entry fee back each time, but you can win a free arena if you do well enough, can win some cards, etc.


Anyways I think this is something VERY approachable for casual players, and in the end if we don't need to sacrifice the competitive balance of the cards/sets themselves this is something we should all be behind. Casual players will extend the life of the game and the success of the company and be the best for all of us

Karakadin
10-18-2013, 03:14 PM
arena format ala hearthstone would be great. Also, going forward online TCGs are going to be including this format I expect. This format is great because it has PvP and you can pick up and play whenever. If it were included, it would likely quickly become one of the most popular formats imo.

agree completely, I think it will quickly become the golden standard of online TCGs and all of them will have this format

DreamPuppet
10-18-2013, 03:15 PM
Daily quests are what eventually made me quit world of warcraft. They were something new for a while at the end of burning crusade but when blizzard decided to basically make daily quests the cornerstone of most of the content updates since then i got tired of the endless grinding of said quests.

CoS
10-18-2013, 03:23 PM
I would love to see this for Hex, the "draft" for SolForge seems to be going the same direction ...

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 03:27 PM
As i said earlier, a Hearthstone Arena style format is extremely fun and appeals to lots of players. In addtion it's not hard to implement such a format in hex, especially if lots of people request it.


We do have plans for providing formats that are popular to players.



Anyways I think this is something VERY approachable for casual players, and in the end if we don't need to sacrifice the competitive balance of the cards/sets themselves this is something we should all be behind. Casual players will extend the life of the game and the success of the company and be the best for all of us

Yeap i agree to this, casual players are the lifeblood of any game ,just like competitive players are its backbone. Judging also by how successful this format is at Heartstone, i would seriously consider adding it to Hex




A hearthstone like arena is definitely more accessible due to the limited time constraints and reduced costs, which I think would make it a format that gets way more players then regular drafting would. The obvious downside though is it could cannibalize regular drafting numbers.

Maybe if cze added an entrance fee or offered different rewards than those offered to drafts (toned down perhaps) could solve this. This might be an issue, but not something that can't be bypassed if serious thought is put on it.

Zarien
10-18-2013, 03:53 PM
As i said earlier, a Hearthstone Arena style format is extremely fun and appeals to lots of players. In addtion it's not hard to implement such a format in hex, especially if lots of people request it.





Yeap i agree to this, casual players are the lifeblood of any game ,just like competitive players are its backbone. Judging also by how successful this format is at Heartstone, i would seriously consider adding it to Hex

Have to agree with shadow and the posts he quoted as well. If we can find neat ways of bringing casual audiences into fun formats like Arena, we should definitely support it. I think PvE is already a really awesome step for that, and if we can include something more lighthearted for PvP as well, I think the game will skyrocket even more than what I currently think it will.

A little bit different, but related as an example in it's attraction of more casual players feeding its success, look at League of Legends. Sure, it has an awesome competitive scene that people love to watch and support, but in the end, it's huge success is because of the accessibility for the general masses. They removed a lot of the barriers that were prevalent among original DOTA that prevented new players from playing, gave it to them for free, and helped push them along to sometimes even strive to become as good as the really competitive players.

Say what we will about their community sometimes, and some of their decision making when it comes to pricing models, but beyond that, their system for embracing casual players works and is something we should strive to try to implement for players in the future for HEX.

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 04:18 PM
@ Agreed Zarien, well said :)

Actually the solution was in front my eyes; at one of my earlier posts i quoted this ;

The Arena is where skill and luck can lead you to rewards. Here you get the opportunity to play with random cards that you do not own. This is commonly know as "Draft" play in trading card games. Players get random cards and chose the best of them to make a deck and battle it out to get nine wins without getting three losses. It should be noted that you don't get to keep any of the cards you play with in an Arena game. However, you can earn extra reward cards by playing arena for your collection. The arena costs $1.99 USD or 150 in game gold to play one round (up to three losses or nine wins). Currently the first round you play will be free, but you will have to buy your way into every match after that. Winning at least seven games before being eliminated can guarantee that you will earn your entry fee back in gold. Unlike the draft formats of other games, everyone's pool of cards are individually selected and not shared or passed on to any other players, thus there is no timer for choosing cards while drafting.

http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Arena

So basically what Hearthstone does is to allow you to play with a phantom version of cards, that you don't keep past the end of the Arena. This solves the issue of uncontested competition between regular drafts and the Arena. Note that you can either pay with real money or gold. Actually this is brilliant as it can add incentives to people to play pve , and serve as a gold sink as well. Prize support could vary depending on what you paid. If you paid with real money for example you get boosters, if you paid with gold crafting materials, pve cards, gold etc

jetah
10-18-2013, 04:29 PM
from what i understand about HEX, a game will take approx 3 hours. so if you have 30m in the morning, you wont have enough time for HEX. I could be wrong but this was my understanding.

I would like to see a version of HEX where a match can be played in less than 1 hour (pvp).

Zarien
10-18-2013, 04:36 PM
@ Agreed Zarien, well said :)

Actually the solution was in front my eyes; at one of my earlier posts i quoted this ;

The Arena is where skill and luck can lead you to rewards. Here you get the opportunity to play with random cards that you do not own. This is commonly know as "Draft" play in trading card games. Players get random cards and chose the best of them to make a deck and battle it out to get nine wins without getting three losses. It should be noted that you don't get to keep any of the cards you play with in an Arena game. However, you can earn extra reward cards by playing arena for your collection. The arena costs $1.99 USD or 150 in game gold to play one round (up to three losses or nine wins). Currently the first round you play will be free, but you will have to buy your way into every match after that. Winning at least seven games before being eliminated can guarantee that you will earn your entry fee back in gold. Unlike the draft formats of other games, everyone's pool of cards are individually selected and not shared or passed on to any other players, thus there is no timer for choosing cards while drafting.

http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Arena

So basically what Hearthstone does is to allow you to play with a phantom version of cards, that you don't keep past the end of the Arena. This solves the issue of uncontested competition between regular drafts and the Arena. Note that you can either pay with real money or gold. Actually this is brilliant as it can add incentives to people to play pve , and serve as a gold sink as well. Prize support could vary depending on what you paid. If you paid with real money for example you get boosters, if you paid with gold crafting materials, pve cards, gold etc

At first I was putoff by the suggestion to pay money for the rounds of the arena, it sounded just like a phantom draft tourny, but then you mentioned using gold to pay for it, and the prize support changing, now that would be interesting. The only thing I would add on top of that, is I would like to see the possibility of some sort of pvp reward as well for the gold sides as well. Maybe something that lets the PvE only crowd keep some of the PvP cards. I think an effective way of doing that, would be maybe rewarding some PvP cards or rewards for gold rounds or tourny as well, that are outside of the tournament block.

They don't have to be amazing pvp rewards, because even dated cards will have their uses, but they could be PvP entry type cards, maybe reward one of the $10 constructed decks, stuff like that. This way you could let newer players use some of their gold to play with cards that aren't allowed in the current Tournament constructed block, and a possibly incentive for the PvP players to maybe dive a little more into the PvE side as well.

If there is one thing I'm hoping, is that gold always stays as a non-purchasable currency (at least by CZE, there obviously going to be third-party systems, unless there is a stopgap for that), sort of like how IP (Influence Points) are implemented for League of Legends. I'm not sure if it was stated somewhere that it would be like that, and that only platinum would be purchasable, I don't remember seeing it, but I'm sure someone will correct me if it was.

Shadowelf
10-18-2013, 04:38 PM
from what i understand about HEX, a game will take approx 3 hours. so if you have 30m in the morning, you wont have enough time for HEX. I could be wrong but this was my understanding.

I would like to see a version of HEX where a match can be played in less than 1 hour (pvp).

You can finish a single game of hex in 5 minutes, the average would have been 10-20 minutes, and if the match is best of three, then no more than an hour (assuming that just like mtg there will be an hour time limit )



If there is one thing I'm hoping, is that gold always stays as a non-purchasable currency (at least by CZE, there obviously going to be third-party systems, unless there is a stopgap for that), sort of like how IP (Influence Points) are implemented for League of Legends. I'm not sure if it was stated somewhere that it would be like that, and that only platinum would be purchasable, I don't remember seeing it, but I'm sure someone will correct me if it was.

They appear to have drawn a hard line between pvp/pve at the moment, i don't know if they will ever attempt to allow to 'buy' pvp stuff with gold directly, i would love if they did even if it was minimal rewards.....

As for the sale of gold Cory has said that they haven't decided on it yet;

http://www.twitch.tv/knightsoftheroundshow/b/430004874 check 0:55:00

Here Cory states that they will only be selling plat,boosters, starters and entrance fees to tournaments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z20tC_cGSsY check 0:28:55

Banquetto
10-18-2013, 07:04 PM
At first I was putoff by the suggestion to pay money for the rounds of the arena, it sounded just like a phantom draft tourny, but then you mentioned using gold to pay for it, and the prize support changing, now that would be interesting.

As an aside, while the Hearthstone Arena is a phantom draft insofar as you don't keep the deck from the draft, you do always get one pack in the reward, even if you lost three straight games. An Arena entry ticket is more expensive than just buying a pack, though, so you need to win some games and get some more gold, cards or crafting dust in your reward for it to be a "break even".

Arena entry is $1.99 or 150 gold .. whilst buying a pack costs 100 gold, or somewhere between $1.25 and $1.50 (depending on bulk purchase discount). So the premium is roughly 50%, which is of course higher than the $1 on top of three packs of a Hex draft.

FeelNFine
10-20-2013, 03:29 AM
I am all up for phantom drafting n any way, I think that is a huuuuge boon for Hex's future, since it really is the best way to work casuals into competitive. 'Free' competitive formats allow players to practice and get comfortable with the competitive side of the game in general, as well as see just how fun it can be. Most importantly it reduces the 'risk' of that first payed event. If for example payed draft is the only competitive format, than a new person has to figure they are going to be loosing money until they can get good enough, and that can be a deal breaker.

I think Arena fits the nature of Hex, which said very early they were going to embrace the fact that they are digital and do things you could never do in real life.

Niedar
10-20-2013, 04:16 AM
As an aside, while the Hearthstone Arena is a phantom draft insofar as you don't keep the deck from the draft, you do always get one pack in the reward, even if you lost three straight games. An Arena entry ticket is more expensive than just buying a pack, though, so you need to win some games and get some more gold, cards or crafting dust in your reward for it to be a "break even".

Arena entry is $1.99 or 150 gold .. whilst buying a pack costs 100 gold, or somewhere between $1.25 and $1.50 (depending on bulk purchase discount). So the premium is roughly 50%, which is of course higher than the $1 on top of three packs of a Hex draft.

The rewards will probably never be as high as in hearthstone though. The economics of everything is completely different because in hearthstone there is no trading.

Jonesy
10-20-2013, 05:43 PM
Wow, Hearthstone raised their prices. It used to be $1 or 100 gold to enter arena, and thats it. Glad I stopped playing that game. Solforge also plans to make their draft like arena, they basically copied Hearthstone's arena 100%. I agree Hex needs this, tons of people don't have the time to play 3 straight hours at a time, but would love to draft. Sure it's not exactly the same as draft but I think both options should be available.

jetah
10-21-2013, 06:41 AM
Wow, Hearthstone raised their prices. It used to be $1 or 100 gold to enter arena, and thats it.

I could have swore it was always a 1.99/150g.

Blackhoof
10-21-2013, 07:49 AM
I don't see any problems to organize following sealed arena-like format (let's name it Arena):
- Players can have access (PvE ticket) to Arena for gold, it will grant phantom boosters and PvE prizes;
- Players can buy access (PvP ticket) to Arena for real boosters and entry fee, they will have all cards from their boosters and PvP prizes;
- There is one player pool for matchmaking: player can be paired with participants from either groups;

This system provides huge playerbase, motivates PvP players to play this format and allows PvE players try this sweet piece of PvP cake. And it won't have any destructive influence to economy.

The only weakness i see in this system is "this format can become so popular that people will play it for free and CZE will have less profit". I think they separated PvE from PvP partially because of this.

PS Ahh it's so hard to write in english. I feel it can make your eyes bleed. Sorry if so :)

Hemotherapy
10-21-2013, 08:25 AM
I could have swore it was always a 1.99/150g.

It was for me. I've been in it since the first wave and I don't ever remember it being any cheaper than that.

GatticusFinch
10-21-2013, 08:25 AM
The arena style drafting in Hearthstone is really awful, imo. Hearthstone's arena is so luck based. You have to pick one out of three cards presented to you, and you have to do that 30 different times. It's pretty hard to craft a good deck when, for example, you pick a card that relies on buffing others of that same type, and then you never get another one, but you're stuck with it in your deck. Then, you have to randomly play other people who are also doing the arena, who may have just gotten lucky and received a bomb legendary as one of their 30 card choices. Then, since you only get a choice of 1 of 3 heroes, you will probably not get the ones that are strong at the moment, and then have to play the ones that are strong.

I prefer the traditional draft mechanics. I think it requires more strategy, more skill, and I don't feel like a bad/good deck is caused by luck as much.

Hemotherapy
10-21-2013, 11:16 AM
The arena style drafting in Hearthstone is really awful, imo. Hearthstone's arena is so luck based. You have to pick one out of three cards presented to you, and you have to do that 30 different times. It's pretty hard to craft a good deck when, for example, you pick a card that relies on buffing others of that same type, and then you never get another one, but you're stuck with it in your deck. Then, you have to randomly play other people who are also doing the arena, who may have just gotten lucky and received a bomb legendary as one of their 30 card choices. Then, since you only get a choice of 1 of 3 heroes, you will probably not get the ones that are strong at the moment, and then have to play the ones that are strong.

I prefer the traditional draft mechanics. I think it requires more strategy, more skill, and I don't feel like a bad/good deck is caused by luck as much.


Agreed. I hate not being able to choose the hero, and the fact that some people can get a legendary (you can even get 2, I've had it done to me >_<) is really strong if you don't get one. Then you can end up getting more rares/epics than someone too. There's no consistancy it's just hard to guage what you'll end up with.

And I agree about not being able to see what you'll get next, it's incredibly frustrating see the Murloc War Leader, (Gives +2/+1 to other murlcos) and thinking, wow, if I can pick up a few others he'd be a great pick, but you'll never know until after you pick him.

It's really just wacky/intro version into a draft type format for people that aren't well versed in how a draft works and what to do.

You can also geat really screwed on either getting too many Class cards, or too few. I've played a rogue arena where I got 0 Assassintates (Rogues removal spell) and it suuuucked. People would drop these big bombs and I'd have no way to deal with them other than trading my creatures to them which put me way behind and I'd lose!


I remember reading/hearing a site giving a critique on HS and they said Arena is going to be the most popular thing in it and that'll be the tournaments Blizzard will do if they do any for HS and I thought what a freakin' joke that was. It so horrible!

Soth
10-21-2013, 11:21 AM
meh, I love the arena so I guess to each their own. It is a nice fresh format. Some matches are going to be unlucky, some are going to be lucky. Welcome to TCGs I guess?

Hemotherapy
10-21-2013, 11:36 AM
meh, I love the arena so I guess to each their own. It is a nice fresh format. Some matches are going to be unlucky, some are going to be lucky. Welcome to TCGs I guess?

"Welcome to TCG's I guess?"

That has nothing to do with TCG's, that's their format, not a staple enviroment for any other TCG. So a better statement would be "weclome to Hearthstone Arena I guess?"

GatticusFinch
10-21-2013, 11:47 AM
meh, I love the arena so I guess to each their own. It is a nice fresh format. Some matches are going to be unlucky, some are going to be lucky. Welcome to TCGs I guess?

No, welcome to Hearthstone, not TCGs. Traditional drafting removes the majority of the luck problems that happen in HS arena. Not being able to see the card pool is asinine. I have probably played the arena 5-10 times, and there will be times that the neutral cards you get are simply unplayable but you have no choice--oh, +1/+1 to pirates, +1/+1 to murlocs, and a bonus to equipment, when I am playing a class with no equipment and have no pirates or murlocs. I am forced to play one of those cards. There is far too much luck in the arena.

Soth
10-21-2013, 12:01 PM
I'm just saying there is a lot of luck in TCGs, whether it is drawing 5 resource cards in a row, or facing an opponent who had a good draw in arena. Nice thing about arena is you bounce around from opponent to opponent, so once in a while you'll face a strong deck sure, but it all balances out.

Hemotherapy
10-21-2013, 01:53 PM
I'm just saying there is a lot of luck in TCGs, whether it is drawing 5 resource cards in a row, or facing an opponent who had a good draw in arena. Nice thing about arena is you bounce around from opponent to opponent, so once in a while you'll face a strong deck sure, but it all balances out.

You face different opponents in other verisons of draft too, so that's a moot point.

As far as RNG/Luck of the draw goes yes, you'd expect that for a card game when you're playing a game, not deck creation.

Atleast in other versions of draft you can use some sort of educated guessing as to what type of deck you can try to build and end up with, with HS Arena you're basically flying blind.

I wouldn't say it all balances out, they don't have anything in place (or atleast haven't made a statement they do) that matches you up against opponents with similar deck strengths (meaning Player A has 2 legendary picks, so he can only go up against someone with atleast 1, etc) and or at the very least similar win/loss ratio's.

That's actually one of the things people have really complained about on the forums, being matched up against the same opponent 2 or 3 times in a row (which has happend to me personally while playing), so I don't think you can really say it all balances out, because it in no way balances out.

mudkip
10-21-2013, 02:48 PM
While we have all these varieties of drafts available, the arena functions in a form that if you have 20 mins to play, you can pay your entry and start drafting with no time limit. If you leave halfway through your drafting or leaving after playing a game 5 in your series of arena games, you can come back two days later and pick up exactly where you left off. This is very nice for people who might have a kid and are suddenly called away or something unexpected happens or maybe want to play 20-30 mins in the morning before work. It allows for a more flexible playing experience for others who might not have 3-6 hours to dedicate to a tournament style.

People are missing the appeal with Arena, that it's a more casual version of Draft. This is what I like about it! I can spend 30 mins picking my deck, then go do something, then start playing. If I have a few losses, I can sleep on it and try again the next day with a clear head.

I would love to see something like that with Hex; I'm sure CZE can think of something.

Yoss
10-21-2013, 03:32 PM
So HS Arena is basically asynchronous Sealed Draft. Brilliant use of the digital format. I would actually propose that Hex replace the normal Sealed with Arena. I say replace, because you want to keep the number of options low enough to have large player pools. The trade off is you need enough modes to have interesting variety, but Hex is awash with variety (three different Draft modes, Sealed-which-should-be-Arena, Constructed, Wild West Constructed, Keep Defense, PVE, and more).

GatticusFinch
10-21-2013, 04:25 PM
So HS Arena is basically asynchronous Sealed Draft. Brilliant use of the digital format. I would actually propose that Hex replace the normal Sealed with Arena.

As someone in the Hearthstone beta, let me confirm again that arena is actually completely terrible, and if Hex replaced sealed with Arena, I'd be putting my pro player on eBay immediately. I would imagine that 75% of the pro players would do the same. Oh boy, a free draft a week where I don't get to keep my cards, barely pick my cards, have no clue what the card pool is, and will be randomly matched with someone else who did not have to make a deck from the same pool!

Arena is ultra casual bullshit draft mode. I don't know what it is with Hex backers constantly seeking to destroy draft and sealed with this crap ("f2p PvP! Drafts where you don't keep the cards! etc.)

Shadowelf
10-21-2013, 04:39 PM
Yeah i think replacing sealed with Arena won't really be a good idea; what hex can do is to run a similar format to hearstone's Arena, for those that favor a fun semi-casual draft format without time constraints. (As i said in a previous post) Cze can set an entrance fee of either gold or platinum and the rewards can vary depending on the fee you paid (boosters for platinum, gold/pve cards/mats for gold). It could serve as a gold sink and incentivise people to play pve. Judging by the fact how successful/popular this format is at hearthstone, i would add it without second thought.

jetah
10-21-2013, 04:52 PM
I see Arena as a place to start PvP. It allows the opponent and yourself to start on level playing grounds (you can't pay for certain cards). Once you feel you are good enough in Arena, you can start doing Sealed.

If HEX had a 1$ entry to Arena it might be worth it for a PvE person to try it without having to purchase PvP cards. If they like Arena enough they might drop a few $$ for packs or try Sealed.

BongoBong
10-21-2013, 05:25 PM
As someone in the Hearthstone beta, let me confirm again that arena is actually completely terrible, and if Hex replaced sealed with Arena, I'd be putting my pro player on eBay immediately. I would imagine that 75% of the pro players would do the same. Oh boy, a free draft a week where I don't get to keep my cards, barely pick my cards, have no clue what the card pool is, and will be randomly matched with someone else who did not have to make a deck from the same pool!

Arena is ultra casual bullshit draft mode. I don't know what it is with Hex backers constantly seeking to destroy draft and sealed with this crap ("f2p PvP! Drafts where you don't keep the cards! etc.)

I am pretty sure when they mentioned "replaced seal draft" they actually meant replace sealed tournament, the one where you open 6 packs yourself and build a deck from those cards, not the regular draft. I could be wrong, but I doubt anyone here wants to see normal drafting go, just another fun, cheaper, more convenient option as well.

Niedar
10-21-2013, 05:33 PM
Yeah, the only thing people are asking for from what I can tell is to have a system like arena in how the tournament structure is run but instead of having drafting system like in heartstone where you draft by yourself and pick one card out of three choices to instead just make it sealed where you open a certain amount of packs and construct a deck from it, with maybe the additional condition that it is phantom so it is cheaper to enter.

This really seems like a no brainer to me and I would be surprised if something like it isn't implemented eventually. It makes it much more accessible to not have to be around for hours at a time.

mudkip
10-21-2013, 05:36 PM
As someone in the Hearthstone beta, let me confirm again that arena is actually completely terrible, and if Hex replaced sealed with Arena, I'd be putting my pro player on eBay immediately. I would imagine that 75% of the pro players would do the same. Oh boy, a free draft a week where I don't get to keep my cards, barely pick my cards, have no clue what the card pool is, and will be randomly matched with someone else who did not have to make a deck from the same pool!

Arena is ultra casual bullshit draft mode. I don't know what it is with Hex backers constantly seeking to destroy draft and sealed with this crap ("f2p PvP! Drafts where you don't keep the cards! etc.)

I actually think Arena is great. The RNG aspect of it is what makes it fun. E.g. the fact that you can't have a favourite class; you have to pick a different one each time.

I agree replacing sealed with a casual form of a sealed gauntlet is a bad idea, but I still think a more casual format of competitive play would be a good thing for Hex.

GatticusFinch
10-21-2013, 06:55 PM
I am pretty sure when they mentioned "replaced seal draft" they actually meant replace sealed tournament, the one where you open 6 packs yourself and build a deck from those cards, not the regular draft. I could be wrong, but I doubt anyone here wants to see normal drafting go, just another fun, cheaper, more convenient option as well.

That's even worse. Why would I want to get rid of sealed tournament, where I can look at all 90 of my cards and make a deck, versus arena where I have to pick one out of the three cards shown to me and hope and pray I get others that work, but if not, I am stuck using them in my deck anyway.

Arena will not work in Hex. It just won't. There are too many mechanics and too many different cards. In Hearthstone, you pick a hero and immediately limit the total card pool by 90%, and there are no different colored mana aspects. How is it going to work in Hex if 6 different times you are forced to pick from three colors that you cannot use?

ZillahEnoch
10-21-2013, 07:17 PM
That's even worse. Why would I want to get rid of sealed tournament, where I can look at all 90 of my cards and make a deck, versus arena where I have to pick one out of the three cards shown to me and hope and pray I get others that work, but if not, I am stuck using them in my deck anyway.

I think it wasn't Arena style of draft that was discussed here, rather Arena matchmaking.

Imagine if instead of a sealed tournament with 8 fixed players playing all their matches in a row you would get to play a random opponent from the player pool until you reach 9win/3loss (or whatever they choose the ratio to be)
You would still get to see 90 cards and build your deck with them, you just would be able to play your games whenever you want.

The only "downside" I see to this is that it would probably require some kind of matchmaking tool to keep the games interesting, and I'm not even sure it is a strong requirement actually - random can be fun too.

BongoBong
10-21-2013, 07:50 PM
That's even worse. Why would I want to get rid of sealed tournament, where I can look at all 90 of my cards and make a deck, versus arena where I have to pick one out of the three cards shown to me and hope and pray I get others that work, but if not, I am stuck using them in my deck anyway.

Arena will not work in Hex. It just won't. There are too many mechanics and too many different cards. In Hearthstone, you pick a hero and immediately limit the total card pool by 90%, and there are no different colored mana aspects. How is it going to work in Hex if 6 different times you are forced to pick from three colors that you cannot use?

Even worse? You are going to play more sealed tournaments then regular drafts and therefore it would be worse for you if sealed tournaments were replaced, and not drafts? I am fairly surprised to hear that as I assumed regular draft was a lot more popular then sealed tournament.

Either way, I wouldn't agree with replacing it either. But there is a lot that an arena like format offers that would be great for a lot of people.

BongoBong
10-21-2013, 07:52 PM
I think it wasn't Arena style of draft that was discussed here, rather Arena matchmaking.

Imagine if instead of a sealed tournament with 8 fixed players playing all their matches in a row you would get to play a random opponent from the player pool until you reach 9win/3loss (or whatever they choose the ratio to be)
You would still get to see 90 cards and build your deck with them, you just would be able to play your games whenever you want.

The only "downside" I see to this is that it would probably require some kind of matchmaking tool to keep the games interesting, and I'm not even sure it is a strong requirement actually - random can be fun too.

I think both have had their merits discussed. The matchmaking is the very obvious one, but I also think a much lower priced opportunity to play tournament pvp is a very good thing. Drafts at $7 is already pretty expensive, a sealed tournament with 6 decks plus say an extra dollar comes to $13 for one "session" of gaming.

Nicalapegus
10-21-2013, 09:06 PM
I think both have had their merits discussed. The matchmaking is the very obvious one, but I also think a much lower priced opportunity to play tournament pvp is a very good thing. Drafts at $7 is already pretty expensive, a sealed tournament with 6 decks plus say an extra dollar comes to $13 for one "session" of gaming.

You obviously don't play any TCGs.

GatticusFinch
10-21-2013, 09:16 PM
You obviously don't play any TCGs.

Yeah, I don't get this. It is starting to seem like a lot of people kickstarted this having no idea what costs money and what does not, what formats there are, etc. People want free drafts, free PvP, get rid of shit to bring in "arena," $7 for a draft is too expensive, and so on.

Anyone who played MTG and wanted to play Hex based on that does not want any of that shit. People want to bring in stuff from Hearthstone just because both games have cards in them and Hearthstone is "cheaper." Protip: Hearthstone is NOT cheaper. At all. There is no trading mechanism. All your cards are random pack pulls, so prepare to get decimated by other people who have been buying packs nonstop. To be perfectly honest, I wish I had sold my Hearthstone key. The game is so luck based from every facet of the game that it is not even fun.

BongoBong
10-21-2013, 09:19 PM
You obviously don't play any TCGs.

You are right, I have not played much in the past due to what I find an excessive cost to playing. Hex already makes TCGs cheaper, which is great, and a large reason why I was willing to back. An arena style format utilizes the digital play space and allows a cheaper and more accessible way to get tournament style gameplay that doesn't effect the prices and value of boosters.

BongoBong
10-21-2013, 09:23 PM
Yeah, I don't get this. It is starting to seem like a lot of people kickstarted this having no idea what costs money and what does not, what formats there are, etc. People want free drafts, free PvP, get rid of shit to bring in "arena," $7 for a draft is too expensive, and so on.

Anyone who played MTG and wanted to play Hex based on that does not want any of that shit. People want to bring in stuff from Hearthstone just because both games have cards in them and Hearthstone is "cheaper." Protip: Hearthstone is NOT cheaper. At all. There is no trading mechanism. All your cards are random pack pulls, so prepare to get decimated by other people who have been buying packs nonstop. To be perfectly honest, I wish I had sold my Hearthstone key. The game is so luck based from every facet of the game that it is not even fun.

How would adding this format effect your enjoyment of the game? It would be very easy to never play it if you didn't want to. An arena style format wouldn't make boosters cheaper, it just makes the ability to play a tournament style format cheaper on an hourly basis.

edit. As for hearthstone being incredibly luck based, how would you explain top players being able to get up to 80% win rates in arena?

ZillahEnoch
10-21-2013, 10:28 PM
No need to show teeth here :)

I actually agree with Gatticus in that I probably wouldn't play this arena a lot. I'm not really interested in it.

However, I would love to see an Arena-like option in Hex because I can see that it would pander to a large population of players. And let's face it, having more players is always healthy for the game, however casual they can be (look at WoW).
If anything, Heartstone proves that the Arena-loving crowd exists.

Now about replacing sealed mode entirely, judging by the freak outs that just evoking it creates here, I wouldn't say it's such a good idea. However, once again for the health of the game, I think they should be wary about dividing the player base.
Then again I'm no expert.

Anyway, I for one would like to see a mode pandering to the Arena crowd in Hex. How they would implement it is up to Crypto and I'm sure they would be able to figure out a good way to do it.

Nicalapegus
10-22-2013, 12:30 AM
You are right, I have not played much in the past due to what I find an excessive cost to playing. Hex already makes TCGs cheaper, which is great, and a large reason why I was willing to back. An arena style format utilizes the digital play space and allows a cheaper and more accessible way to get tournament style gameplay that doesn't effect the prices and value of boosters.

Buying into Drafts/Sealeds could be considered an investment. I play MTG once a week and draft. Most of the time I place 1-4th place, thereby paying for my next entry. I am sure they will implement something similar.

MTG Drafts where I play cost 15 dollars. The packs sell for 4.29 apiece. If I draft only 3 rares, I have paid for 3 packs with the draft. If I land a big money card, I get more than that back. Etc.

The idea that it costs too much goes back to what you're willing to spend. To some people, paying 15 a month on WoW was too expensive. Once you start playing you will see how a TCG works. You trade cards, you win tournaments, etc.

escapeRoute
10-22-2013, 12:43 AM
i would use the arena as a way to let the pve playrs play with pvp cards.... it is a supercasual version of a draft so, but it is still a draft game so, in order to not take away players from sealed i would make it so that u actually need to pay gold for joining it and no platinum, and i would not give pvp prices but pve ones or better, gold prices, that a guy can try to use to buy pvp cards on ah, if anybody will ever put them there for gold...

this way we solve many problems

-u dont take away players from draft... if too many people will play the arena even the pro players will be forced to play it cause draft would be desert... bad, bad thing... the 2 things should NEVER overlap in prices, never
-u let the supercasual player have its supercasual fun, and u let the pro or hardcore base have its casual fun, when they want, without being forced to do it to make a profit out of it
-u let pve players have a taste of pvp cards and balance that they might never have
-u actually have more casual players for this casual version of the game, making it more accessible since even those who dont want to put money into f2p games would be allowed to join a non-gonzo-pvp, even if they wont be able to keep the cards, making it easier and more fun for the crowd

Blackhoof
10-22-2013, 02:37 AM
I can't understand why people hate idea of replacing sealed with arena.
May be they don't understand core of this idea or i can't see some essential aspects of sealed...

In this topic people like hs arena for 2 reasons:
- time-friendly matchmaking (main feature)
- low cost (optional feature)

If i can buy 6 boosters and pay 1$ entry fee for sealed i would prefer arena-style matchmaking. It has only one difference from classic MtG sealed: i don't need 2-3 hours to play this tournament. I can play it during a week or two. I think nice move here is 8 duels limit (in HS you have 9wins/3loses limit).

If i don't want to pay for game or i'm not sure if i'm ready for competitive PvP i can pay, for example, 100 gold to have access to 6 phantom boosters and PvE prizes tournament.

It seems as if a person see the phrase "we want arena in Hex" here, he thinks that it means "we want Hex have the same arena like in hs". That's wrong.

escapeRoute
10-22-2013, 03:09 AM
Its not a tournament at all dude... U dont have a selected range of enemies to fight... Thats why casual players like it (in addition to the time managemente thing), u dont have direct competitors for the final prize, u just have an objective... U reach 9 wins? U are gret dude! U loose 3 matches? Try again next ttime...

Glognar
10-22-2013, 03:43 AM
Its not about being cheaper for me, I'd quite happily pay for the drafts and other tourneys. For me it is all about time, I work, have a wife and kids and other stuff going on.

I cannot commit to several hours in one go to play a draft, sealed, whatever tournament, at least not often, the arena idea from Hearthstone (keep in min I've never played it) is that I could pay whatever to enter it and then finish it in my own time and still win packs back if I do well enough. I don't mind if its a phantom draft as long as if I win enough games the rewards are worth it. Even if it took me several nights, or even a week to play those max 11 games.

Its not about being appealing to the PvE crowd either I have no interest in playing the AL I want to play real players, grouping casual gamers into people who are PvE only is quite insulting.

Blackhoof
10-22-2013, 04:11 AM
Its not a tournament at all dude... U dont have a selected range of enemies to fight...
You mean in Arena i don't have any rating and my win/lose rate does not count? They may count if developers would do so.

In simple draft when i have a selected range of enemies i don't care whom i play with. They are just players with same/similar win/lose ratio. Only exception - maybe i can be paired with someone twice in some formats. I'm not going to win world championship, i'm going to play some games and get some cards.

And or course arena is a casual format. An easy and entertainig way to play PvP games on an equal footing with other players. Way to not just open my packs but to have more fun during this process. I think that casual everyday games must not have same restrictions like serious tournaments.

Championships, GPs and other major tournaments is completely another type of game. Arena can not and should not replace it. It's just like comparing serious football games and school casual football after classes.

SomeoneRandom
10-22-2013, 05:16 AM
Coming from someone who has played a lot of hearthstone arena and gone both 0-3 and 9-0, the format is no where near as good as something like draft IMO. It may be better for a more casual audience so I wouldn't be opposed to have something like it in Hex. However, it is very confusing for new players I think... First off there is no interaction with other players, which adds a LOT of luck to it. I have seen drafts with 3 legendaries in them, with 4 flamestrikes, and also drafts with 0 legendaries or epics and the worst garbage rares. This also happens a bit in real draft, however, because of your interaction with other players you are all in the same boat and the same amount of rares/mythics/uncommons. In Arena you can open only 3 rares or 3 rares, 3 legendaries and 3 epics, with a power curve that is top heavy to encourage money spent this is insane.

As for who you are playing against in Arena, I believe it has its own hidden MMR because people have reported playing 1-0 vs 8-0 but having high rating across the board making the MMR match work out.

GatticusFinch
10-22-2013, 07:45 AM
edit. As for hearthstone being incredibly luck based, how would you explain top players being able to get up to 80% win rates in arena?

Because there is no trading post to buy or sell individual cards. These "top players" got incredibly lucky to randomly pull their bomb cards from packs. You literally cannot build a deck from anything other than opening packs.

GatticusFinch
10-22-2013, 07:49 AM
I can't understand why people hate idea of replacing sealed with arena.

Because we already spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on this game expecting the traditional TCG formats and not some bullshit that Blizzard cooked up for its ultra-casual game to bleed money out of people?

BongoBong
10-22-2013, 07:52 AM
Because there is no trading post to buy or sell individual cards. These "top players" got incredibly lucky to randomly pull their bomb cards from packs. You literally cannot build a deck from anything other than opening packs.

What? We aren't talking about constructed here. A trading post would do nothing for arena as you don't use your own cards. Everybody has the same chance of opening a "bomb rare".

zadies
10-22-2013, 07:54 AM
Also arena doesn't allow you to keep the cards if you do a direct copy so seems rather shallow in that regard to.

Vorpal
10-22-2013, 08:26 AM
Hearthstones Arena sounds like a very poor replacement for draft.

Blackhoof
10-22-2013, 09:39 AM
Arena cannot replace draft. Draft is all about interactions between small group of players who play this draft. And fixed range of players forces this game format to be played to the end in one time interval.

I'm sure drafts are in safety =) They are too fun to be spoiled by "fresh ideas".

Direct copy of HS arena would be a great fail. It does not suit for Hex. But system i explained above would be nice. Technically its only difference from standart sealed format (in case of card pool) is inability to simulare one print run for player and all his opponents. I don't think it's valuable in casual format.

Soth
10-22-2013, 01:05 PM
I agree with what many others have said. Arena format is a great way to grow the fanbase. Hardcore TCG fans might post more, but don't always represent the majority.

The arena format serves as a stepping stone between F2P PvE and the pay to play pvp game. I think it would grow the paying player base and would be a win for everyone. It can be set up similiar to Hearthstone - you pay for a $1 ticket and you enter the draft. You play 10 games. You win nothing unless you win at least 6 games. 6-7 games get you your ticket back. 7-8 games and you win a $2 booster pack. 10 wins and you win 2 booster packs. And the nice thing is you can pick it up and put it down coming back for more whenever you have time for a match.

GatticusFinch
10-22-2013, 02:35 PM
What? We aren't talking about constructed here. A trading post would do nothing for arena as you don't use your own cards. Everybody has the same chance of opening a "bomb rare".

Did you bother to read the post I was responding to?

nearlysober
10-22-2013, 02:39 PM
I would like to see some mode of HEX that has the similar concept of an "asynchronous tournament challenge" mode where you take a deck and see how far you can go with it... but you can break up the run into multiple sessions.

It's not a replacement for drafts or "sit down" tourneys... just another way to play.

BongoBong
10-22-2013, 02:42 PM
Did you bother to read the post I was responding to?

You mean the one I wrote and asked how do you explain the high winrates of top players in arena? This one?


As for hearthstone being incredibly luck based, how would you explain top players being able to get up to 80% win rates in arena?

To which you made a response that has no relevance to arena.


Because there is no trading post to buy or sell individual cards. These "top players" got incredibly lucky to randomly pull their bomb cards from packs. You literally cannot build a deck from anything other than opening packs.

Yes, I did read it, and your response to it still isn't relevant to arena

Shadowspawn
10-22-2013, 02:42 PM
I would like to see some mode of HEX that has the similar concept of an "asynchronous tournament challenge" mode where you take a deck and see how far you can go with it... but you can break up the run into multiple sessions.

It's not a replacement for drafts or "sit down" tourneys... just another way to play.


and this, my friends summarizes the last 9 pages of TLDR stuffages.

jetah
10-22-2013, 05:11 PM
I can't see why HEX couldn't have both.

HEX might have some players which are very casual. These will have families, jobs, college, school, or anything else that can be added to it.

Those that love draft could still have it and those that cant do draft could have something similar to Arena.


Arena would have to be changed to work with the HEX format. Maybe we could pick from random 2 (or 3 or w/e) colors to build a deck. then go from there.

After completing the Arena, HEX could give you the option to buy said deck. This would give a player the option to get in PvP cheap and the option to buy a PvP deck.

Jonesy
10-22-2013, 05:37 PM
As someone who has drafted a ton in other games and could be considered a hardcore tcg player (well, was a few years ago) I think arena is great simply for the asynchronous aspect. Being able to spread a draft/sealed out over multiple sittings instead of having to set aside 3+ hours at a time is great. Being able to start instantly without waiting for a queue to fill is great. Zero interaction in the actual drafting is a bummer (though if its asynchronous sealed that's irrelevant), but then again for all the talk everyone makes about reading signals I've never met anyone who could do so reliably. And for every great payoff card I've gotten that wheeled I've missed out on twice as many so you can't rely on it. I don't see how someone getting lucky in arena and getting a legendary differs at all from someone cracking a bomb or two in a draft.

Nicalapegus
10-22-2013, 10:22 PM
Arena works in Hearthstone because of a couple reasons, reasons of which would not work in Hex.

Hex has a resource system.

Hex seeks to copy MTG which has a meta in drafting, and takes skill other than picking the best possible card.

MTG's draft pods are part of the drafting meta-if you hate draft a big bomb card you most likely won't see it in MTG draft. If you're drafting with people from different pods all the time hate drafting serves no purpose.

TLDR; Hearthstone Arena will not work in Hex.

Vorpal
10-23-2013, 08:50 AM
I would have no problem with them adding arena in at a later date in hex, as long as traditional draft is assured.

I would rather see them get it up and running and released though, than delay it until they can get an arena working. But it's definitely content that could help grow the game.

jetah
10-23-2013, 07:02 PM
I would have no problem with them adding arena in at a later date in hex, as long as traditional draft is assured.

I would rather see them get it up and running and released though, than delay it until they can get an arena working. But it's definitely content that could help grow the game.

I don't think anyone is implying that Arena should be added before release. Maybe 2.0 or something like that (so a year or so afterwards). If there are different developers working on different task, it might get in sooner.

But I agree that HEX should get to launch/release (or open beta or w/e) before adding something like this in.

Yoss
10-24-2013, 09:37 AM
Regarding my "replace Sealed with Arena" comment from earlier, let me clarify what I meant. I can tell that many of you are not understanding what I was trying to say, and I assume that's my fault for poor communication.

What I'm thinking of is MTG Sealed Tournament, tweaked only for the asynchronous "play when you want" format. All the other parts of Sealed would still be like MTG. You would pay 6 packs plus $1 as entry. You would get to look at, use, and keep all 90 cards from the packs (as well as anything else in the packs, like chests). You construct your deck from your 90 cards, plus as many basic resources as you want. The only difference, the only thing copied from HS Arena, is that you are not on a timer to build your deck, nor do you have to complete all your games within a single session. In all other ways, I think it should be like MTG Sealed.

@Gatticus:
I am a long time MTG player, and ProPlayer Hex backer. Over and over in this thread you have posted negative assumptions about me that are blatantly false. I have no interest whatsoever in Hearthstone. I've never played it and probably never will. I want Hex, and I want Hex to be awesome.

EDIT:
Also, DRAFT is not SEALED. I am not advocating any changes to DRAFT.

Hemotherapy
10-24-2013, 10:03 AM
So you're basically saying make it like M14 DotPW? You open all your packs, make a deck, and battle up to 9 wins/3 losses like in HS?

Karakadin
10-25-2013, 05:03 AM
I think you guys are out of your mind to want to take the mode that would be most userfriendly/accessible to newcomers for a reasonable pricepoint and push it way back to a year past release or something. This game is going to thrive and survive by being able to captivate a NEW (non-TCG) audience and convert them into TCG lovers, it's increasingly hard to do that with your run of the mill formats due to the price and the skill edge, new players trying to draft are going to just get crushed over and over and over again at ~$10 / pop for 1-2 games that they get to play and that adds up, and makes it so people just walk away, or play the 1-2x / month they can afford but never really get into it.

Your designing a game for YOU, but you should be pushing for a game for THEM and know that Crypto understands TCG, they know what we want and they will get it to us, so let our huge features be pushed back a little bit in order to make sure release can bring in a ton of new blood that will allow the competitive scene/tournaments to be bigger, more lucrative, and more fun

Hollywood
10-25-2013, 06:19 AM
Think this is the biggest problem: Many players do not know or do not want to understand that TCGs are expensive. If you do not spend money for PvP... you are basically lost. You are simply worse than your opponents.

And that is what is called P2W... normal for a TCG... but if there is no way to acquire boosters except buying them... I predict that HEX will get problems finding players. PvE is great, I think lots of people will hang around there because this does not cost... but PvP is generally the core of this game... and in all other late releases you can get at least a single booster per day by daily quests (HS, Solforge).

You do know that you will be able to acquire in-game currency and cards by playing the PvE portion of the game? So while, yes, those who choose to put more money into the game will be able to get everything sooner, you will still be able to get everything in the game with enough daily play and without investing any more real currency.

Hollywood
10-25-2013, 06:21 AM
I think you guys are out of your mind to want to take the mode that would be most userfriendly/accessible to newcomers for a reasonable pricepoint and push it way back to a year past release or something. This game is going to thrive and survive by being able to captivate a NEW (non-TCG) audience and convert them into TCG lovers, it's increasingly hard to do that with your run of the mill formats due to the price and the skill edge, new players trying to draft are going to just get crushed over and over and over again at ~$10 / pop for 1-2 games that they get to play and that adds up, and makes it so people just walk away, or play the 1-2x / month they can afford but never really get into it.

Your designing a game for YOU, but you should be pushing for a game for THEM and know that Crypto understands TCG, they know what we want and they will get it to us, so let our huge features be pushed back a little bit in order to make sure release can bring in a ton of new blood that will allow the competitive scene/tournaments to be bigger, more lucrative, and more fun

That's what the PvE portion of the game is for.

Arbiter
10-25-2013, 06:35 AM
You do know that you will be able to acquire in-game currency and cards by playing the PvE portion of the game? So while, yes, those who choose to put more money into the game will be able to get everything sooner, you will still be able to get everything in the game with enough daily play and without investing any more real currency.

No, PVE will not get you currency that can be used for tournament entry (there are two forms of in game currency). It also will not get you PVP cards. PVP is meant to be pay to play.

Hollywood
10-25-2013, 06:39 AM
No, PVE will not get you currency that can be used for tournament entry (there are two forms of in game currency). It also will not get you PVP cards. PVP is meant to be pay to play.

Yes. You will be able to obtain currency that can be used in the AH. You know, the primary form of trade in the game. And there will be tons of PvE players who will wish to buy the loot and gear one obtains in the PvE portion of the game.

Chadatog
10-25-2013, 07:24 AM
I believe the most reasonable fix for sealed 6 hour marathon league for people with limited time is to just also have an official league that lasts two weeks to a month just like MTG does. I would be playing in leagues on MTGO all the time if they ever implemented them. I'm all for givimg people choices for creating their own small leagues, but there needs to be more official league choices than just a 6hour marithon sealed league. If they do want to do somthing like arena to get new plsyers feet into pvp, put it into the ftp section of the game (costs gold, don't keep cards, pve rewards).

GatticusFinch
10-25-2013, 07:34 AM
@Gatticus:
I am a long time MTG player, and ProPlayer Hex backer. Over and over in this thread you have posted negative assumptions about me that are blatantly false. I have no interest whatsoever in Hearthstone. I've never played it and probably never will. I want Hex, and I want Hex to be awesome.

I replied to you once in this thread about why Arena would be a terrible replacement for what you called "sealed draft." I didn't post any "negative assumptions" about you at all.

Then, you decided you needed to clarify what you meant, since everyone disagreed with you and you then admitted you didn't mean "sealed draft." Then after that, for some reason, decided to make a statement that was blatantly false--accusing me of posting about you "over and over."

Persecution complex much?

Glognar
10-25-2013, 08:21 AM
Again nobody is asking for arena from Hearthstone to replace anything in Hex, nor are they even asking for anything exactly like arena in Hearthstone.

They are asking for draft or even constructed/limited whatever tournaments that allow you to play whenever you can without having to commit several hours in one session to do it.

As for a draft type format, it could be like when you pick random cards (as long as the randomness is the same for everyone such as 1 legendary or whatever, not sometimes 1 sometimes 3) from packs just like in draft, but you are not drafting at the same time as other players, you then make a deck and play PvP games against other people also playing the same format until you either get 9 wins or 3 losses (replace 9 and 3 with whatever numbers CZE decide) in your own time.

Yoss
10-25-2013, 01:44 PM
If they do want to do somthing like arena to get new plsyers feet into pvp, put it into the ftp section of the game (costs gold, don't keep cards, pve rewards).
Did you read my post for how to do it? What did you think?

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28926&page=10&p=310548&viewfull=1#post310548


@Glognar:
I do not want them to touch normal Draft mode, only Sealed (and I suppose your suggestion to also do this for Constructed could work, maybe).

jetah
10-25-2013, 02:41 PM
I replied to you once in this thread about why Arena would be a terrible replacement for what you called "sealed draft."

I'm (we're) not asking for anything to be replaced. The "idea of Arena" should be added to HEX as an official Tournament style. Something at a lower price point and less time restraints. I do like the idea that I could pay for "Arena" and play my matches over a few days (or weeks if work is demanding 10 to 12 hours a day).

I just don't always want to set 6 hours to play a tournament.


[Arena Style]
The idea is that players could spend 1$ for a quicker style tournament that could be completed over the course of x. I wont add in days or weeks but I'll leave it blank as it could be open until you lose or win.

This option is given for a person coming from Hearthstone that doesn't know the full ends/outs of HEX. This is also an option for someone wanting to try PvP but doesn't want to drop 10$ (or the full entry price) to try it, like a PvE player.

Arena Style will not allow the players to keep the cards but could optionally offer the set they choose for 9$ (10$ Draft cost - 1$ Arena Style entry fee as an example). This option could allow the new PvPer to enter other PvP styles easier.

[Current Draft]
Will stay the same as it is.

This option is for the pro player that loves PvP and wants to keep the cards after the tournament.



ps I know it wasn't me you were talking to.

GatticusFinch
10-25-2013, 03:17 PM
I'm (we're) not asking for anything to be replaced.

That's not what the guy I originally replied to said, and then he got all bent out of shape because I didn't read his mind that when he said "draft" he really meant "tournament," really only meant the asynchronous matchmaking, and then admitted he has never played Hearthstone, so he really doesn't know what system he is comparing it to.

This thread has come full circle from "Hearthstone arena should replace sealed" to "we just want free/cheap sealed with asynchronous tournaments."

jetah
10-25-2013, 04:37 PM
That's not what the guy I originally replied to said, and then he got all bent out of shape because I didn't read his mind that when he said "draft" he really meant "tournament," really only meant the asynchronous matchmaking, and then admitted he has never played Hearthstone, so he really doesn't know what system he is comparing it to.

This thread has come full circle from "Hearthstone arena should replace sealed" to "we just want free/cheap sealed with asynchronous tournaments."

Ah, I see now.


just note that I never intended to replace draft. I always meant to have both alongside each other.

Yoss
10-25-2013, 04:52 PM
That's not what the guy I originally replied to said, and then he got all bent out of shape because I didn't read his mind that when he said "draft" he really meant "tournament," really only meant the asynchronous matchmaking, and then admitted he has never played Hearthstone, so he really doesn't know what system he is comparing it to.

This thread has come full circle from "Hearthstone arena should replace sealed" to "we just want free/cheap sealed with asynchronous tournaments."
Here's what I actually said:

So HS Arena is basically asynchronous Sealed Draft. Brilliant use of the digital format. I would actually propose that Hex replace the normal Sealed with Arena. I say replace, because you want to keep the number of options low enough to have large player pools. The trade off is you need enough modes to have interesting variety, but Hex is awash with variety (three different Draft modes, Sealed-which-should-be-Arena, Constructed, Wild West Constructed, Keep Defense, PVE, and more).

"Sealed Draft" (AKA "Sealed Deck") is the six-pack keep-what-you-open format from MTG, is it not? (Google "Sealed Draft" and see what you get.)

And yes, I've said I'd prefer that Sealed be changed to an asynchronous deck building and matchmaking scheme, similar (in that way only) to HS Arena. Details here:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28926&page=10&p=310548&viewfull=1#post310548

Karakadin
10-25-2013, 05:59 PM
That's what the PvE portion of the game is for.


Yes. You will be able to obtain currency that can be used in the AH. You know, the primary form of trade in the game. And there will be tons of PvE players who will wish to buy the loot and gear one obtains in the PvE portion of the game.

First off, while PvE is good for learning pure basics, it isn't competitive and likely won't hold people over for thatttt long, I doubt it keeps the people who complete it 1x ever coming back for much more

but also think about how complex this is for a new user? They have to grind PvE forever, win some stuff, sell it in the Auction House, wait for it to be bought, get currency, buy packs/tickets, then get into a draft

yea... that's super easy to understand and welcoming for anybody who hasn't played a ton of TCGs...

Chadatog
10-25-2013, 06:48 PM
Did you read my post for how to do it? What did you think?

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=28926&page=10&p=310548&viewfull=1#post310548

Yeah that was my idea as well, though I don't think anything has to be changed from how sealed leagues were done for MTG. From my experience sealed leagues are already asynchronous in that you simply have something like 5 matches (best of 3) needed to be played for the week and you can play them all in a row on one day or one a day, however you would like, as long as you haven't played against your opponent in the league for that week. I really never understood Cory's wanting to create a 6 hour marathon league as that just reminds me of regular sealed tournaments. Unless he was talking about leagues = tournaments, but I see leagues as a bowling league, something you participate in over several weeks playing several rounds of games over the course of several days. It allows you to rethink your strategy and come back in a later week.

The largest gripe I have with Arena in Hearthstone is that you pick only 30 cards and that is your deck. Also no matter how good of a random card generator creating equal rarity picks for each player, you are still going to get some picks that are simply good cards that are highly situational or cards that create good synergy with specific cards. To not be able to take those cards out of your deck and build a tighter deck out of chosen cards really hurts the format. That is one of the main parts of the limited format and trying to shoehorn the hearthstone arena style into draft or sealed makes it lesser for everyone.

If you want casual people to have fun in a limited format create a 6 week sealed league. 5 matches (best of 3) played per week with a starting card pool of 75 cards (5 boosters) that you can then add a pack of cards each week the league continues (but you don't have to if you want to keep costs down) and build your 40 card deck our of that. It really helps people learn what cards are good in a limited format because they can break down their deck and rebuild between any of the matches played if anything is not working in the deck.

Arbiter
10-25-2013, 09:45 PM
Deleted

Karakadin
10-25-2013, 11:50 PM
That's what the PvE portion of the game is for.


Yeah that was my idea as well, though I don't think anything has to be changed from how sealed leagues were done for MTG. From my experience sealed leagues are already asynchronous in that you simply have something like 5 matches (best of 3) needed to be played for the week and you can play them all in a row on one day or one a day, however you would like, as long as you haven't played against your opponent in the league for that week. I really never understood Cory's wanting to create a 6 hour marathon league as that just reminds me of regular sealed tournaments. Unless he was talking about leagues = tournaments, but I see leagues as a bowling league, something you participate in over several weeks playing several rounds of games over the course of several days. It allows you to rethink your strategy and come back in a later week.

The largest gripe I have with Arena in Hearthstone is that you pick only 30 cards and that is your deck. Also no matter how good of a random card generator creating equal rarity picks for each player, you are still going to get some picks that are simply good cards that are highly situational or cards that create good synergy with specific cards. To not be able to take those cards out of your deck and build a tighter deck out of chosen cards really hurts the format. That is one of the main parts of the limited format and trying to shoehorn the hearthstone arena style into draft or sealed makes it lesser for everyone.

If you want casual people to have fun in a limited format create a 6 week sealed league. 5 matches (best of 3) played per week with a starting card pool of 75 cards (5 boosters) that you can then add a pack of cards each week the league continues (but you don't have to if you want to keep costs down) and build your 40 card deck our of that. It really helps people learn what cards are good in a limited format because they can break down their deck and rebuild between any of the matches played if anything is not working in the deck.

Again this format is not in any way "pick up and play"

the beauty of arena is that you can sit down and just sneak in 1 game before work, OR you can sit down and grind through 3-4 full arena sessions straight, getting your prizes at the end of each one to continue letting you play more arena. A format like above overlooks a lot of the value something like this does to add to the "addictiveness" of a game, a 6 week sealed draft couldn't be more stale, it's like a season long fantasy league (way too much of a commitment) without any of the friends/office groups that keep people playing them.

catigator
10-26-2013, 07:20 AM
Sealed deck where you can play your games whenever, or leave a half-constructed deck and finish it later, should definitely be in this game and there's no reason not to include it. I bet there's a huge amount of people that love sealed and draft formats but due to jobs and relationships can't really set aside 2 hours that often.

Hollywood
10-26-2013, 07:45 AM
First off, while PvE is good for learning pure basics, it isn't competitive and likely won't hold people over for thatttt long, I doubt it keeps the people who complete it 1x ever coming back for much more

but also think about how complex this is for a new user? They have to grind PvE forever, win some stuff, sell it in the Auction House, wait for it to be bought, get currency, buy packs/tickets, then get into a draft

yea... that's super easy to understand and welcoming for anybody who hasn't played a ton of TCGs...

I think that you, and a whole lot of other people, are undervaluing what the PvE content is going to bring to the game in regards to both card value and replayability.

Chadatog
10-26-2013, 01:46 PM
Again this format is not in any way "pick up and play"

the beauty of arena is that you can sit down and just sneak in 1 game before work, OR you can sit down and grind through 3-4 full arena sessions straight, getting your prizes at the end of each one to continue letting you play more arena. A format like above overlooks a lot of the value something like this does to add to the "addictiveness" of a game, a 6 week sealed draft couldn't be more stale, it's like a season long fantasy league (way too much of a commitment) without any of the friends/office groups that keep people playing them.

I don't see the difference between playing a few games of league whenever you have a chance, and if you have more time you can then sit down and play a full draft or sealed tournament rather then "grinding out" in the arena mode. You would make out better money wise because you at least are able to keep the cards in the league and tournaments to sell in the auction house and recoup some of the money spent to hopefully start another. Arenas right now in hearthstone don't give you that ability if you don't do well (due to the lack of trading/auction house).

Vorpal
10-26-2013, 06:50 PM
double post

Vorpal
10-26-2013, 06:59 PM
Having played Arena more in Hex, I'm not a fan. It seems extremely inferior to draft - getting to pick only from 1 of 3 cards, and having to use every card you draft, means you almost always have to go for the same 'safe' creatures and can't take any risks - or that's a dead card, in every one of your games.

Brian Kibler sums up some additional problems with arena - having to do with hero powers : http://bmkgaming.com/look-hearthstone/

If people like the way you can split up your arena games and play them whenever, that sounds like a neat idea, but as far as I can see it doesn't specifically have to be linked to arena. The essence of the arena is you aren't waiting on anyone else to pick your deck, and that you don't get to keep the cards you have chosen. The # of cards you are picking from and the total number you pick could both be adjusted.

Also the way you pay $$ for each arena match but don't get to keep any of the cards is a little disappointing :D

mudkip
10-26-2013, 09:35 PM
Brian Kibler sums up some additional problems with arena - having to do with hero powers : http://bmkgaming.com/look-hearthstone/

Wow, that was a really interesting read. I completely agree with his comment that you draft exactly the same deck every time in arena.

Rapkannibale
10-26-2013, 11:14 PM
I am having fun in Hearthstone, but it is no Hex in terms of depth.

Before I tried it I was very skeptical of the Arena format, but now I am in love. It is awesome to just be able to get a "draft-lite" experience at your own pace with no time pressure. Play a match here and there, come back when you want. I would love to see something like this in Hex.

Cory_Jones
10-26-2013, 11:20 PM
I am having fun in Hearthstone, but it is no Hex in terms of depth.

Before I tried it I was very skeptical of the Arena format, but now I am in love. It is awesome to just be able to get a "draft-lite" experience at your own pace with no time pressure. Play a match here and there, come back when you want. I would love to see something like this in Hex.

You will! But we have our own clever take on it care of Dan Clark :)

Gwaer
10-26-2013, 11:30 PM
Speed draft! 1s auto pass priority. Better be clicking the cards you want to play.

chromus
10-26-2013, 11:47 PM
New formats left and right! Gotta love it :)

Rapkannibale
10-27-2013, 08:05 AM
You will! But we have our own clever take on it care of Dan Clark :)

Awesome! Oh and just the fact that you and some other members of the team are actually replying on the forums, on the weekend even, makes me confident that this game will rock everyone's stocks off. :)

jetah
10-27-2013, 01:14 PM
Awesome! Oh and just the fact that you and some other members of the team are actually replying on the forums, on the weekend even, makes me confident that this game will rock everyone's stocks off. :)

They're working 24/7 at the office. I've even heard they get 1 bio break each day! Showers can wait till after release.

Shadowelf
10-27-2013, 06:50 PM
You will! But we have our own clever take on it care of Dan Clark :)

Argg alienating our concerns with one hand and intriguing our curiosity with the other; tis no fair :)

Vorpal
10-27-2013, 07:27 PM
I would think any sort of sealed could be done in the 'take your matches as you like them' way that hearthstone does arena.

It wouldn't work well where you have to interact with a set group of people, as you do in a draft.

Gattou
10-28-2013, 10:05 AM
I hope Hex is not going to be like Hearthstone... I went through the tutorial and played 5 games. I don't know why this game is called a game. I could understand if this was made for smartphone ... but for computer ?
3 buttons for 1 only action => find an opponent
There is nothing to do except find an opponent and do random quick matches => webrowser games already does that with the trading part.

escapeRoute
10-28-2013, 11:07 AM
I hope Hex is not going to be like Hearthstone... I went through the tutorial and played 5 games. I don't know why this game is called a game. I could understand if this was made for smartphone ... but for computer ?
3 buttons for 1 only action => find an opponent
There is nothing to do except find an opponent and do random quick matches => webrowser games already does that with the trading part.

well, it has been built for tablets, so yes, it makes sense

Aethernaut
10-28-2013, 11:24 AM
I hope Hex is not going to be like Hearthstone... I went through the tutorial and played 5 games. I don't know why this game is called a game. I could understand if this was made for smartphone ... but for computer ?
3 buttons for 1 only action => find an opponent
There is nothing to do except find an opponent and do random quick matches => webrowser games already does that with the trading part.

Well, it is still in beta. Also, you have to unlock the Arena to get to the good stuff. I don't know- I downloaded the HS beta Saturday afternoon and proceeded to log almost 16 hours with it by Monday morning. There is certainly something to the game.

Vorpal
10-28-2013, 11:52 AM
can hearthstone be played on tablets yet? That would be nice, I have a tablet. Thought it was PC only at this stage.

Aethernaut
10-28-2013, 12:50 PM
can hearthstone be played on tablets yet? That would be nice, I have a tablet. Thought it was PC only at this stage.

Blizzard starting internal testing of the Ipad client this month- there is meant to be an Ipad version available shortly after the release of the game.

wutae
10-28-2013, 01:29 PM
Internal testing oh HS since begin of October, they will definetely release same time at PC and Ipads