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View Full Version : Suggestion: Add a way to seee what was your next draws after the game



Soldack
10-21-2013, 06:04 AM
From watching streams, it seems like it would be nice to be able to see what future draws would have been after the game and even show your opponent your hand.

Shadowelf
10-21-2013, 06:20 AM
Forgive me, but i don't see how this is going to help anyone, except those people that want to prove to their opponent how lucky he was by winning the game, while you would have drawn that awesome x,y, card next turn and beaten them (or vice versa). In addition, people don't want to hint about what's in their decks most of the time, especially in competitive environments

Kami
10-21-2013, 06:40 AM
I think this was a valid suggestion but probably not for showing your opponent cards.

For yourself, it's nice to see if you had any upcoming draws that might've saved you, for example. Sometimes if you make a mistake, what would've been two turns of survival ends up being one. If you had survived two turns, maybe the second turn had the draw you needed. :)

I don't think HEX is even remotely close to finishing their feature set. This may already be something on their features-to-do list.

AngrySalad
10-21-2013, 06:50 AM
The ability to "see next card(s)" after the match is over is useful and should be considered adding to the UI. MTGO has this feature and it is something that people always do IRL. Sometimes it helps you to confirm whether or not you made the right decision based on the information you had at the time and it might help you making decisions in tweaking your deck.

jetah
10-21-2013, 06:51 AM
I wouldn't want my opponent to have the ability to see into my deck. Although I'll be streaming so that defeats that.

Soldack
10-21-2013, 06:55 AM
I wouldn't want my opponent to have the ability to see into my deck. Although I'll be streaming so that defeats that.

I meant these as two separate features. You can see your future draws, after the game. You can show your opponent your hand, after the game.

This is especially useful in teaching, learning and in deck testing.

AngrySalad
10-21-2013, 06:55 AM
Sometimes when people are playing casually, they like to draw a few cards and show their hand to show their opponent how screwed they got on resources/troops/etc... It's also helpful if you are playing with a friend and you want to show your hand so they can give you tips or use as a teaching/learning tool. You should have the ability to draw extra cards after the match is over and maybe also the ability to show hand to opponent. Again, these are two things the MTGO has, and two things that happen IRL. Whether or not HEX wants to emulate MTGO is their decision though.

Soldack
10-21-2013, 06:56 AM
Forgive me, but...


You do so much awesomeness for Hex, Shadowelf, that you could call my momma a bad name and I'd forgive u....

jetah
10-21-2013, 07:15 AM
I meant these as two separate features. You can see your future draws, after the game. You can show your opponent your hand, after the game.

This is especially useful in teaching, learning and in deck testing.

if you had worded it like that, I might not have posted. I thought you meant that I could see the opponent's card(s) at the end. but if it's optional...

Soldack
10-21-2013, 07:24 AM
if you had worded it like that, I might not have posted. I thought you meant that I could see the opponent's card(s) at the end. but if it's optional...

I meant both as purely optional and separate.

Not the first time my post has been misunderstood on here. ;)

SomeoneRandom
10-21-2013, 08:08 AM
I think this is a "feature" that ends up making people play poorly. I went over this a bit in one of my articles, but confirmation bias plagues card games because of this. Just because a card is on top that you were planning for doesn't mean you made the right choice, just because you kept a hand that had 1 land and you hit the best draw off the top and won doesn't mean you made the right choice.

Decks in card games are basically like Schrodinger's cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat). At all times it is every card you want it to be and every card you don't and you won't know until you draw. Complimenting yourself for making a "sweet play" because you drew the card you needed to win. You should be evaluating things independently of past experiences. You should be thinking "This play gives me 3 outs, this play gives me 10 outs" or "The only way I can win is by drawing X, so I have to play a particular way to setup that scenario". In these cases you are making the best choice with the current information, and the next time you in a similar situation you shouldn't be biased towards one option because it worked out before.

HyenaNipples
10-21-2013, 08:32 AM
I'd enjoy the feature.

While one might accurately argue mathematical probabilities and the Schrodinger's Cat scenario, I believe there is also a valid fatalistic viewpoint here. The quantum outlook on the next card being every-card-at-once until you draw it is basically a fancy way of revealing you don't have any idea whatsoever. Meanwhile, the deck was shuffled and the order of cards predetermined in a manner that I don't think can be accurately defined as "random." In this viewpoint: theory be damned, that card IS a specific card- its NOT every card at once, really. Your fate is set, and it's sitting there hidden from you in plain sight!

It's fun to discover that, upon the shuffling of cards, a sequence of events was predetermined. Barring egregious error, it's amusing to see just how distant your "predetermined" defeat was from a now unrealized victory. I believe that most would see this as a reinforcement of good play, as a wise person would view any error as a means by which they cheated themselves out of a victory they were "destined" to attain.

SomeoneRandom
10-21-2013, 08:38 AM
I am not opposed to the feature, but I won't be using it except for very rare circumstances of casual play. I am just pointing out that in most cases this leads to bad play and to caution against using it. =] The point of learning from past experiences is to learn from them, not bias your play to a particular scenario.

Jbizzi
10-21-2013, 08:49 AM
I just don't get the feature, other than to make someone feel better about getting beaten (top decked or not).

How is luck a function of learning? All you will give yourself is the satisfaction of saying, "man, I knew that [card] was coming, if only I had one (two, three) more turns before my opponent beat me."

The way to learn and show deck viability is simply to play over and over and over again with it. Choices made during a single game are still based on assumption. You are rarely going to draw similar cards over 8 draws and the same for your opponent. It is impossible to know how one decision made differently may help you in the next game.

Shadowelf
10-21-2013, 09:47 AM
You do so much awesomeness for Hex, Shadowelf, that you could call my momma a bad name and I'd forgive u....

:o

I couldn't forgive myself if i ever did something like this and that's worse you know:)


In these cases you are making the best choice with the current information, and the next time you in a similar situation you shouldn't be biased towards one option because it worked out before.

Experience has taught me exactly this


I just don't get the feature, other than to make someone feel better about getting beaten (top decked or not).

How is luck a function of learning? All you will give yourself is the satisfaction of saying, "man, I knew that [card] was coming, if only I had one (two, three) more turns before my opponent beat me."

The way to learn and show deck viability is simply to play over and over and over again with it. Choices made during a single game are still based on assumption. You are rarely going to draw similar cards over 8 draws and the same for your opponent. It is impossible to know how one decision made differently may help you in the next game.

Totally agree...

As i said earlier, this feature will mostly serve to satisfy your self-ego, rather than teaching you how to become a better player

No problem seeing it in the game as an optional feature if people request it. I doubt that i will ever use it though...

RoyalNightGuard
10-21-2013, 10:38 AM
I think looking at the next draw is almost always bad. It means you either don't trust your decision making ability or you're looking for a rationalization for your performance in the game. Whenever someone looks at the draw - usually before shouting abuse or lament across the board - I always think of this article.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/2005_Stuck_In_The_Middle_With_Bruce.html

Which isn't to say that this shouldn't be a feature - as a digital TCG I think it's kind of important to make the digital cards at least as functional as physical ones, and looking at your next draws is something you can do with a physical deck - but you should really think about why you're doing it.

Soldack
10-22-2013, 05:55 AM
I think it is better to have a feature and you choose not to use it than for us that like to think about future turns if a game had continued, not be able to have a look.

I couldn't imagine it would be hard to code. Even the crappy MTGO had it and that was coded in ASCII BASIC to run on DOS right?

SP33
10-22-2013, 02:13 PM
I'm not familiar with how TCGs are coded but who is to say your draw is predetermined before it actually happens. This may be the case in other TCGs as I have not played many but it's possible your draw is determined by a random number being called and from there the card you draw is the card which happens to be in that spot in an array of available cards. If your cards were predetermined at the beginning of the game they would have to go through the trouble of inserting cards later on (If you have a card that is shuffled back into your deck) and that may change your future draws anyways.

As I said I am not sure how they handle drawing cards but it may not be possible to correctly show you your future draws anyways. Correct me if I am wrong this is just what goes through my head.

Svenn
10-22-2013, 02:19 PM
I think it's fun to be able to look at where cards were in your deck... especially at the bottom. Nothing like flipping your deck over and going "Well, look at that... there's my bomb sitting on the bottom. What an unlucky cut!" I don't see it as a learning experience or something that makes you a better or worse player... I just find it fun to see where the cards were in my deck that I didn't make it to.

Covnam
10-22-2013, 07:41 PM
I would hope / expect that the deck order is set until something changes it just like a real deck would be.
I think each player being able to show their hands and browse the order of your deck after a game would be a fun (optional) feature.

SomeoneRandom
10-23-2013, 05:12 AM
Again, I am perfectly fine with adding this feature... I just really caution against it... Even though consciously you think it is just for fun to see where things are, subconsciously you will be reminding yourself of this situation every time something close comes up again. It is a really bad trap for new TCG players and it honestly holds a lot of people back from getting better. It very closely relates to the gamblers fallacy.

Soldack
10-23-2013, 06:19 AM
I also like to pretend at the end of games that I cut my deck to where it is at the end of the game. So then I draw seven cards and consider if I should mulligan and then start drawing and mentally replaying the game that I just played with these "new cards."

It comes from a concept called "deliberate practice." You can read about it in many books, but the best one is a book called "Talent is overrated." About how you succeed by not only working harder, but by working harder at specific core skills. Ina few moments using this feature, I can recreate an entirely new learning experience. Getting more training value out of every game.

Also, showing hand after the game is an option that makes spectating games better.

SomeoneRandom
10-23-2013, 06:52 AM
I also like to pretend at the end of games that I cut my deck to where it is at the end of the game. So then I draw seven cards and consider if I should mulligan and then start drawing and mentally replaying the game that I just played with these "new cards."

It comes from a concept called "deliberate practice." You can read about it in many books, but the best one is a book called "Talent is overrated." About how you succeed by not only working harder, but by working harder at specific core skills. Ina few moments using this feature, I can recreate an entirely new learning experience. Getting more training value out of every game.

Also, showing hand after the game is an option that makes spectating games better.

That is a pretty decent idea to basically get another goldfish while having the context of a game, although you have to make sure to judge without knowing opponents deck unless its a game 2 or 3. As for spectating, my hope is that a spectating client would show both players hand with a delay or something.

Soldack
10-23-2013, 08:37 AM
As for spectating, my hope is that a spectating client would show both players hand with a delay or something.

It would have to be showing the hands if you are spectating a game in which the game has ended.

Even a delay could give away info such as a counterspell you hold a long time.

SomeoneRandom
10-23-2013, 09:06 AM
Yeah, perhaps... I tend to trust people, but I find out that a large amount of the top card players cheat, so perhaps its better to not show.

Edit: I suppose also having them not shown gives casters something to talk about. "He probably did that play because he has X in hand" etc

Erep
10-23-2013, 05:50 PM
Yeah, perhaps... I tend to trust people, but I find out that a large amount of the top card players cheat, so perhaps its better to not show.

Edit: I suppose also having them not shown gives casters something to talk about. "He probably did that play because he has X in hand" etc

This is a bit more complex than just that. Casting in a card game is very complicated, because you have to be roughly as good as the players in order to do it. (I was watching some casted Hearthstone by Artosis and Doa, and they were clearly not on the same level as the players, and did not know what was going on, and that is in a much simpler game than Hex...)

This is because the key thing players do is reading the other person's plays, in particular, to determine what the other person has, as well as give tells to make the other player think they are doing something, and try to play around the wrong cards. If a caster could do this as well as the players, then the caster may as well be the player. (In addition, it is arguably harder to do this as a caster, as there are so many decks to know, as opposed to an RTS with a few races.)

I feel like decent casting needs the crutch of omniscient vision, to create a complete view of what the players are thinking, both in choosing moves that counter opponents, as well as set themselves up.

---All that said, cheating really does need to be prevented.

Niedar
10-24-2013, 01:44 AM
It is a must to be able to see both players hand when casting in my opinion. It makes it much more interesting. All that is needed is for the delay to be long enough to ensure the match is over which is not a problem considering when casting there is no need to interact with the the people watching. At huge in person events there is no delay needed because they can put the players in supervised booths to ensure they have no access to the information that everyone else does.

Soldack
10-24-2013, 03:30 AM
It is a must to be able to see both players hand when casting in my opinion. It makes it much more interesting. All that is needed is for the delay to be long enough to ensure the match is over which is not a problem considering when casting there is no need to interact with the the people watching. At huge in person events there is no delay needed because they can put the players in supervised booths to ensure they have no access to the information that everyone else does.

I agree. It needs to be a game option a player turns on or off whether to allow post-game spectators to see his hand while he plays. Some people may not want people to know he made a bone-headed play that cost him the game. lol

The analogy here is poker. Poker is shout casted with the hidden cards revealed to the audience, but only the shout casters see the hole cards when the game is live, then the shout cast is edited and played after the fact. There was a poker movie once that included a lady stealing hidden card information to make a final table.

I am practicing shout casting Hex using twitch feeds and I can only see one players hand. I try not to be one-sided but having half the information does effect the casting commentary.

SomeoneRandom
10-24-2013, 05:09 AM
This is a bit more complex than just that. Casting in a card game is very complicated, because you have to be roughly as good as the players in order to do it. (I was watching some casted Hearthstone by Artosis and Doa, and they were clearly not on the same level as the players, and did not know what was going on, and that is in a much simpler game than Hex...)

This is because the key thing players do is reading the other person's plays, in particular, to determine what the other person has, as well as give tells to make the other player think they are doing something, and try to play around the wrong cards. If a caster could do this as well as the players, then the caster may as well be the player. (In addition, it is arguably harder to do this as a caster, as there are so many decks to know, as opposed to an RTS with a few races.)

I feel like decent casting needs the crutch of omniscient vision, to create a complete view of what the players are thinking, both in choosing moves that counter opponents, as well as set themselves up.

---All that said, cheating really does need to be prevented.

I think if the esports scene for Hex gets decently big we will probably get decent players turn into casters. If you look at League for example Jatt has insight into the players minds a lot better than most casters and it really shows in his analysis, especially for things like pick/ban phase where a lot of casters fail.

As for revealed cards, I think it would certainly help casters... there could be a lot of analysis as "he did this because of this" when really the player just has different cards in hand that forced the play. So overall it would be nice to have, hate to have 30+ minute delays though...

Ebynfel
10-24-2013, 08:33 AM
Such an environment would be easy to regulate in a physical tournament. IE: a con or a special invite deal where the playing is done live at the event location. But for even partially online tournaments this just isnt the case. There would have to be delays with casting and 'live feeds' would have to play 1 hr after the match starts(each player has a 30 minute match timer) to ensure there is absolutely no collusion or ghosting happening whatsoever. That's where the issue lies. One could hope the community could regulate such a feature for the casters live, but that just isn't the case. That's not to say that the matches would be any less entertaining to watch whatsoever, just that the results would be in before the cast starts unless it's an on-location live event.

Hollywood
10-25-2013, 05:52 AM
Magic Online has a feature that allows you to draw cards from your deck after the game is over. It isn't a stretch to think they could/would add a similar feature.