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4acrossisemu
11-04-2013, 06:48 AM
OK so we have had alpha now for a little while and there is some trends appearing that are also seen in Hearthstone too. Slow idle playing and it will ruin the game in the longer term as players become quicker and quicker. However a lot will not. They are either indecisive or not paying full attention or and i hope not griefing.

It's really aggravating. In Table Top gaming this is a problem too and it needs to be nipped in the bud. Today was the frist time i had to quit out as i just couldn't handle it any longer.

The auto timers for the turns needs too be on always. The game would run more smoothly. OK yeah no probs it's alpha it doesn't matter but when it's not it will matter. People get competitive and this will see tempers flare.

I suggest a simple change to the current system. Put all the timers on auto and have a button to add time if required you have 5 of these add time charges. Yes this can still be abused to grief but it will really pick up the games.

This system will also encourage quicker play which players might not do otherwise.

mudkip
11-04-2013, 07:40 AM
OK yeah no probs it's alpha it doesn't matter

Correct. If you don't like a game: quit. You have nothing to lose by leaving a game.

4acrossisemu
11-04-2013, 08:07 AM
Correct. If you don't like a game: quit. You have nothing to lose by leaving a game.

true but thats my point it makes the game unfun. slow. clunky and terribly annoy. these aren't traits you want in a game therefore just saying that isn't enough. A solution should be found this is what alpha/beta is for. It could easyily become epidemic and ruin the fun. Slow play in tourneys is a problem in a lot of systems. Death Clocks are there for that reason so perhaps some input would be better than ignoring it.

TZHX
11-04-2013, 08:43 AM
I think this will probably be helped a lot when the interface matures a little. At the moment I need to zoom into a card to see its resource cost, what its current status modifiers are, etc. because the symbols either look the same or the card as it appears in your hand is just too aliased to see. Along with better priority passing, less fiddly UI in general and possibly more keyboard shortcuts, there's a lot of room for improvement.

I know there's lots of people out there that will memorise every card and recognise it from the artwork, but there's a lot more that won't.

Lunarath
11-04-2013, 08:53 AM
Correct. If you don't like a game: quit. You have nothing to lose by leaving a game.

This is the kind of attitudes that hold games back. The reason people come here to suggest changes is because they care about the game, and wanna see it succeed. Especially in an alpha where this is the most important time to come up with changes... Your attitude is the exact opposite of what any alpha and/or beta needs...

OT: I would like to see something like this implemented aswell at some point.

Shadowelf
11-04-2013, 09:00 AM
I think this will probably be helped a lot when the interface matures a little. At the moment I need to zoom into a card to see its resource cost, what its current status modifiers are, etc. because the symbols either look the same or the card as it appears in your hand is just too aliased to see. Along with better priority passing, less fiddly UI in general and possibly more keyboard shortcuts, there's a lot of room for improvement.

I know there's lots of people out there that will memorise every card and recognise it from the artwork, but there's a lot more that won't.

This

In addition, when the game moves into beta/launch there will be a tutorial to introduce all new people to the genre/ game, so it is likely that people will be more familiar with hex and its mechanics and thus they will spend less time figuring out how everything works in game (priority, phases, stack etc)

Mahes
11-04-2013, 09:08 AM
I have only quit out a couple of times playing a player so far due to slow play. You do not need a tutorial to learn the game initially. All you have to do is play the AI. That will teach you all the basics you need to know about the game. Improvements to the UI will help, though at this stage they need to first fix a lot fo cards first.

The times I have quit out involved the very first play of the game. If a player takes 30+ seconds to figure out what to cast/do on the very first turn of the game with no Priority exchange on my side, I leave the game. Anybody should have a pretty good idea what they plan to do on the 1st turn pretty fast and so I choose not to stick around if a player just holds their turn.

Eierdotter
11-04-2013, 09:12 AM
i get your point here.
but it is not easy to solve.

some players are slow, they check every card on the board each turn, read every card in their hand, think about solutions etc. very annoying to play against, but there is nothing to do here on the internet. in the local card store you know these guys and simply don't challenge them if you just want to play a quick game.

some people stream and talk through their turns decisions, sometimes going very deep in detail. sometime getting lost while chatting with the audience. the time a turn takes here is very unpredictable.

new players are slow, or simply forget to pass priority.

bugs... sometimes the priority timers take a long time to even show up.

slowplaying on purpose, whatever gain it may provide.maybe someone could explain what the purpose of this is... in a match that matters, no one will leave because it takes to long, and if it is a game just for fun, is a victory recieved through surrender a real victory for yourself?

I can not think of a simple solution, that handles the slowplaying on purpose, because it will always hurt the other cases and be still abuseable to some extent.
For example a turn timer of like 2 minutes feels long if abused, but is not really much time if there is a complex boardstate and a lot of math to do. (for example combinations of a few roostasaur, ozawa, troops with swiftstrike and lifedrain, combattricks, volcannon, etc.)
a limited (draft) tournament will most likely have a shorter gametimer due to generally less complex decks and a group of people beeing involved. (there is a difference in a 1vs1 game where someone has to wait ~30min until the game is over, and several people having to wait several games of XX minutes to get a result.)

rcl
11-04-2013, 01:20 PM
I play competitive Go and the popular system is that you have (let's say) 25 minutes game time, when that's over you have 5 minutes to make your next 5 moves. As soon as you make those moves, your timer refreshes to 5 minutes. The times are configurable but the intent is that you get enough time to play a reasonable game, and if you take more then you still get time but it's limited. But that limited time is stretched over 5 or 10 moves because some turns or decisions should take you almost no time but other moves would take you a minute or 2 or 3..

In online casual play the typical way this system works is 1 minute main time (ensures you get in the game with lag etc) then straight in to the 5 min/5 moves period. The system is called byo yomi fwiw. I think a variation could work. And also tgis should be configurable on challenge - that slow dude at the card store still deserves to play and if he can play the other slow dudes online then he is going to be in heaven!! So, let it be configurable

This is extremely successful for Go which faces the exact same type of problem.

Miwa
11-04-2013, 02:14 PM
May I suggest not playing a turn-based strategy game if you are ADHD?

funktion
11-04-2013, 02:26 PM
Once the game is open to the public this will only get worse. It is totally necessary though, it will take new players awhile to get acclimated to the client, especially if they are new to TCGs. I lost a few of my very first mtgo drafts from the timer just because I dove right in amd wasn't familiar with the client at all.

Shadowelf
11-04-2013, 02:37 PM
What we know is that if people are doing this on purpose are going to be dealt with;


I can say that if people think they're going to commonly disconnect in an attempt to come back later and win, or if they plan to sit on their timer to grief people, or if they plan to use secondary lowbie accounts to keep their collection safe while they grief people, well, I can (with some amount of regret) say I know the vast majority of online TCG trolls and griefers from my playing days so I've seen it all. We'll be focused on those issues and any others that arise.

If they are not ,let's hope that improving the UI and incorporating the tutorial will help people play faster; the problem is however, how you can tell whether the other guy is griefing or he is a new player/slow player? Unless you have seen him before or you have noticed a pattern, there will be cases of people accused out of bias...

Avignon
11-04-2013, 02:37 PM
I think patience can be required sometimes. We have to keep in mind that this isn't a card shop. It's in our homes. So our attention to the game can and will be sidetracked. In the card shop I am unlikely to see my daughter drawing with textas on the walls or my son have his nappy blow apart on the carpet. This does happen at home and, while uncommon, will happen enough to cause some delays every few games for a minute or two.

I am sure there are others out there that will have their partners be creative in getting attention away from Hex for a few minutes without notice. My wife seems to bring home the groceries at the most inconvenient of times.

TL;DR - Real life happens

Golstar
11-04-2013, 02:41 PM
May I suggest not playing a turn-based strategy game if you are ADHD?

I find this offensive, and I could reply that I would suggest not playing a turn-based strategy game against humans if you do not have enough cognitive processing capacity to finish your turn in a timely fashion. I could phrase it more rudely, like you did, but that is beside the point: Some people prefer a slower pace, others don't.

I detest playing against slow people - it really ruins my fun, as I end up spending more time waiting than playing - especially as many of them, from experience in MTGO, are playing multiple games at once. Just do like MTGO and have a match timer. Having infinite time for a match does not work, and is incredibly abusable. There has to be a limit.

Shadowelf
11-04-2013, 02:46 PM
I think patience can be required sometimes. We have to keep in mind that this isn't a card shop. It's in our homes. So our attention to the game can and will be sidetracked. In the card shop I am unlikely to see my daughter drawing with textas on the walls or my son have his nappy blow apart on the carpet. This does happen at home and, while uncommon, will happen enough to cause some delays every few games for a minute or two.

I am sure there are others out there that will have their partners be creative in getting attention away from Hex for a few minutes without notice. My wife seems to bring home the groceries at the most inconvenient of times.

TL;DR - Real life happens

True, and i have no problem to wait if such a case ever arises as soon as my opponent informs me.



I detest playing against slow people - it really ruins my fun, as I end up spending more time waiting than playing - especially as many of them, from experience in MTGO, are playing multiple games at once. Just do like MTGO and have a match timer. Having infinite time for a match does not work, and is incredibly abusable. There has to be a limit.

There is a match timer (1 hour-30 min for each player), but people are discussing whether it should be a turn timer too

Golstar
11-04-2013, 02:51 PM
There is a match timer (1 hour-30 min for each player), but people are discussing whether it should be a turn timer too

A turn timer could be ok, as long as it leaves room for random emergencies - I think it is 10 minutes in MTGO, that's fine with me really. Is the 90 minutes for best of three or for one match? Either way it seems rather long - I prefer something like 50 minutes for a best of 3 - that's how I remember the MTGO timer (for competitive games - in casual you can set it to whatever).

Niedar
11-04-2013, 03:09 PM
MTGO works on a 25 minute timer for each player to limit an entire round to 50 minutes max if both players take their timer to 0. That is for best out of three.

Miwa
11-04-2013, 03:47 PM
A turn timer could be ok, as long as it leaves room for random emergencies - I think it is 10 minutes in MTGO, that's fine with me really. Is the 90 minutes for best of three or for one match? Either way it seems rather long - I prefer something like 50 minutes for a best of 3 - that's how I remember the MTGO timer (for competitive games - in casual you can set it to whatever).
The OP suggests having a much shorter than 10min turn timer. Which would defeat the purpose of playing a turn-based game. We aren't talking about infinite amounts of time here, the games have a max length, which a player signs up for when they start a match.

The 30 min game timer does work, I won a game against my brother when he timed out, because the game went long, and his turns took a long time, because he had to tap so many artifacts every turn to keep me stalled out. (That and we require min 100 card "fun" decks to play a game).

If I wanted to play a game where I had zero opportunity to step away for a minute every once in a while, I'd play dota2.

mudkip
11-04-2013, 04:05 PM
This is the kind of attitudes that hold games back. The reason people come here to suggest changes is because they care about the game, and wanna see it succeed. Especially in an alpha where this is the most important time to come up with changes... Your attitude is the exact opposite of what any alpha and/or beta needs...

That could not be further from the truth.

1) Play flow is not what is being tested at the moment. The point of the alpha right now is to test the stability of client and the server.
2) Do you really think CZE haven't thought of this?

There's no point stressing about stuff like this. If you don't like a game you're playing - quit and find another one. That would be the best benefit to everyone.

Werlix
11-04-2013, 04:58 PM
That could not be further from the truth.

1) Play flow is not what is being tested at the moment. The point of the alpha right now is to test the stability of client and the server.
2) Do you really think CZE haven't thought of this?

There's no point stressing about stuff like this. If you don't like a game you're playing - quit and find another one. That would be the best benefit to everyone.

1) Everything is being tested right now, it's alpha
2) Of course they have but they want their player's thoughts on all aspects of the game that's the purpose of letting us into alpha

SmkViper
11-04-2013, 06:26 PM
If I may make a suggestion that might help - Hearthstone shows UI hints when the other player is taking their turn: cards and UI elements glow when they mouse over them, face-down cards and targeting arrows appear when they're dragging a card or target on the play field, etc. Not only does it give you some interesting meta information that you'd get in-person (and don't get online), it also helps make the game feel like the other player is active rather then just sitting there wasting your time.

I don't mind slow players, but if the game showed me what they were fiddling with on their end I think it would help. Which also leads to something else I'd like that you'd need to pull this off (to show glows as the player mouses over cards in his hand) - show the back of the player's hand to the opponent rather then just using a tiny number by the hero. I find that much easier to read and pay attention to when I'm trying to figure out how many cards a player has.

Simo46
11-04-2013, 07:30 PM
Wow, that's a really cool idea Hearthstone have implemented. I hope Hex are paying attention, anything that adds the little bit of real-life nuance to a digital game is a big plus for me. I'd never have come up with that idea in a million years myself

Bossett
11-04-2013, 07:48 PM
The Hearthstone UI is full of good stuff like this - there are interactables all over the play field you can click on (so you get rewarded for randomly clicking on stuff while waiting), there is audio and visual feedback when you take a longish time (your character says 'Hmmm...' or 'I wonder...') so people are prompted to hurry up, and there's a fuse that starts when you get to the last 10 seconds. It would be awesome if Hex would borrow some of that (just displaying the opponent's hand as they look at cards would be awesome), to solve some of the digital abstraction issues that IRL games don't have.

Miwa
11-04-2013, 08:09 PM
A decent MtG player wouldn't give you any of the tells that HS gives you, like showing which card was played, and which card you are repeatedly looking at and such. Watch how the pros play in person.

I'd rather not have scarce vertical screen space wasted with showing cards, especially if it means there's no way to mask what I'm looking at, or if I'm playing the card I just drew. At least not until they support better resolutions than just 1920x1080. It'd speed up my play if the game scaled cleanly, but I don't know if they have really hi-res artwork saved to use for people with non-crappy monitors.

Bossett
11-04-2013, 08:44 PM
A decent MtG player would at least be staring at his cards, or the board, or whatever - if he runs off after a crying baby, falls asleep, is staring off into space, etc., you can at least tell what's going on. Though, being able to tell if a player plays the card he just drew is something you can do in person if you're paying attention, and that is useful info.

I would like to see maybe a noise every 10 seconds, and a countdown from 20-30 that players can refill from their overall bank of time if they're active (with maybe every card played automatically add 5s or something, so it's not a pain for people who are playing a lot in one turn).

Niedar
11-04-2013, 10:21 PM
I don't see how it is possible to track a person that sits there and shuffles their hand for a long time after drawing.

Zomnivore
11-04-2013, 11:32 PM
I'd like a limit to each turn in length for an option.

As long as someone isn't taking 5+min a turn...

4acrossisemu
11-05-2013, 06:38 AM
If I may make a suggestion that might help - Hearthstone shows UI hints when the other player is taking their turn: cards and UI elements glow when they mouse over them, face-down cards and targeting arrows appear when they're dragging a card or target on the play field, etc. Not only does it give you some interesting meta information that you'd get in-person (and don't get online), it also helps make the game feel like the other player is active rather then just sitting there wasting your time.

I don't mind slow players, but if the game showed me what they were fiddling with on their end I think it would help. Which also leads to something else I'd like that you'd need to pull this off (to show glows as the player mouses over cards in his hand) - show the back of the player's hand to the opponent rather then just using a tiny number by the hero. I find that much easier to read and pay attention to when I'm trying to figure out how many cards a player has.


Hey i really like the telegraphing in HS too. I think i does help and also gives clues on how they are playing. Someone Mentioned them wanting to play several games at once as well in another thread. Please don't let that happen. I'm not sitting waiting on them to play out 5 pther game before the fell they need to take their next turn. Because it's turn base people feel that can waste time doing other stuff. I asked 1 guy why he was taking so long and he said he was reading...

Timers per turn are needed. Yeah new people will feel this annying but they can play without them in a casual mode and then learn the timer. We are all new at some point and they will become regulars. time management is something they should be comfortable with.

And i understand that Real life happens but it take a second to let the other person know. It's really rude not to. and this is what this really comes down to. Your wasting someone elses time no matter what the reason and that is BM. It really does start to remind me of raiding...

Miyordon
11-05-2013, 12:43 PM
I do not understand the problem here. If you go into a multiplayer game, you have to budget your time. To do this, you have to expect it can take anywhere from the average time games finish in (unknown to me), to the full time allowed. How would a turn time help this impatience? What if they just move as soon as the time counts down to one on each turn. They get half an hour total, if they use it on their first turn, you win. This reminds me of all the people in League of Legends matches saying they have to go after 23 minutes because of school. Play when you have time to complete a game only, you know what you are capable of, and only that. Do not expect your opponents to do anything other than take advantage of the time they have available.

4acrossisemu
11-05-2013, 06:05 PM
I do not understand the problem here. If you go into a multiplayer game, you have to budget your time. To do this, you have to expect it can take anywhere from the average time games finish in (unknown to me), to the full time allowed. How would a turn time help this impatience? What if they just move as soon as the time counts down to one on each turn. They get half an hour total, if they use it on their first turn, you win. This reminds me of all the people in League of Legends matches saying they have to go after 23 minutes because of school. Play when you have time to complete a game only, you know what you are capable of, and only that. Do not expect your opponents to do anything other than take advantage of the time they have available.

it's nothing like that at all. It's stalling a game because of dithering. Within them games you are free to act and win a game when you like. Here yeah i win if he goes AFK if i fancy being bored for 30mins... It's about wasting others time. I play table top gaming at tournements and this slow play is something that can cause major issues. Someone come over and chats to his friend. I have to wait on him to get back to the game. Or someone takes ages makign a play deicsion so i get only 3 games in rather than 5 because he is unsure on how or what to play.

Miyordon
11-05-2013, 06:18 PM
Again, you are saying "The opponent is taking longer than I am" WHATEVER the reason for slow play, whether it be dithering, talking with family, actually taking a long time to think about the game, none of that matters because he has the time available to do it. You need to go into a game thinking he can take a total of thirty minutes to try and beat you spread out over all his turns. If he does less, good, if he uses it all, long, but you will probably win. Now, I can agree with your problem in table-top gaming, I do not know if they have a time structure, but outsiders should not be interrupting your games.

Damascus
11-05-2013, 07:34 PM
Don't know if this has been posted already, but a good solution to this would probably just be an option to set the timers/options to whatever you want when you make a game. Then the opponent can either agree to it or decline the match.

mersk
11-06-2013, 03:04 AM
I would like it if each player had a 'average turn time rating' or something. That would allow people to play with others of similar speed. I get pretty irritated when i've spent 3 minutes and my opponent has spent 12. Could be part of a matchmaking rating or something along those lines in the background perhaps.

Shadowelf
11-06-2013, 05:34 AM
Don't know if this has been posted already, but a good solution to this would probably just be an option to set the timers/options to whatever you want when you make a game. Then the opponent can either agree to it or decline the match.

You will be able to do this (setting timer length) when playing casual


You'll be able to set timer length (or not have one) in casual 1v1 games.

I doubt this will be allowed in non-league tournament matches; although the fact that you have to pay an entrance fee to tournaments will greatly reduce time griefing in this case

Miwa
11-06-2013, 10:47 AM
I doubt this will be allowed in non-league tournament matches; although the fact that you have to pay an entrance fee to tournaments will greatly reduce time griefing in this case
It doesn't matter how fast you play in a tournament, you still have to wait for everyone else to finish their games in that round anyway.

Shadowelf
11-06-2013, 11:24 AM
It doesn't matter how fast you play in a tournament, you still have to wait for everyone else to finish their games in that round anyway.

What i meant was that it is less likely to meet someone that pays with the sole purpose of griefing you. As to whether it matters in tournaments, i would say it depends. For example if the tournament is best of 3, you are a game behind and opponent plays slow in order to win on time (yeah it can happen in control vs control matchups), is still griefing.

Rydavim
11-06-2013, 01:06 PM
Given that this is an Alpha client, I would expect some of these problems to certainly be solved or mitigated as the UI evolves.


I know there's lots of people out there that will memorise every card and recognise it from the artwork, but there's a lot more that won't.

This is almost certainly true. And even more so during Alpha. If you are looking for someone that already knows all of the cards, just say so in chat and I'm sure you could find some similarly-inclined players.


If a player takes 30+ seconds to figure out what to cast/do on the very first turn of the game with no Priority exchange on my side, I leave the game.

I may just be more patient, but unless you discussed play before hand, this seems a bit unreasonable. Particularly during an alpha client, only a small percentage of players are going to be familiar enough with the cards, UI, and 'quirks' of the current incarnation of the game to take their first turn in this time.

I am reasonably familiar with digital TCGs, but I wouldn't expect every person I match up with to be. There's a good chance you'll run into people who have never played a TCG before, digital or otherwise. If you're not talking with your opponents before the match starts, it seems kinder to give people the benefit of the doubt.

If you're looking specifically for rapid games, I think the best option would be to seek out similarly minded players with the experience needed. Especially for new players I would imagine it would be discouraging to have opponents quit in the first 30 seconds of a game, particularly if you don't know why.

Alpha, by it's very nature, is going to be buggy by itself. I think it's down to us as a community to do our best not to exclude inexperienced players. Feedback from veterans is definitely useful, but so is feedback from novices. In order for the game to grow after launch, the client needs to be accessible to all types of players.

Ah, that went a bit longer than I intended. But for now, I think it's down to the players to communicate their matchmaking desires. Hex is in it's infancy! :)

Baigan
11-06-2013, 03:47 PM
A timer for turns sounds good, provided that it gives sufficient time for slower players and any IRL miscellanea. I take my time playing because otherwise I'm prone to making mistakes and it would be just as unfun for me if I had to rush through making decisions simply to keep opponents lacking patience happy.

Zarien
11-06-2013, 03:50 PM
I think a automatic forfeit after 10 minutes or so like in magic is the best solution. And for people who wish for there to be a turn timer, we could have that as an option for people to Queue for with the "Find Opponent" option. That way like-minded players can face each other in constructed.

Showsni
11-06-2013, 04:22 PM
In real life games, slow play is a problem, because a player who feels they're in a strong position (say, they won game 1) can then run down the clock to try and win the match. That's only the case because both players are running off the same clock, though. The digital games are more like using a chess clock - both players have their own clock, so you can only waste your own time. And if you use it all up, you're going to lose. Hex already has this implemented, players have a set amount of minutes to complete a game in. Your opponent has 30 minutes to spend over the course of the game, and it's their right to use it.

Of course, currently we're in Alpha. All games are friendly best of one matches. And that, of course, is the worst style for slow play to crop up. In best of three matches, you'll have less time for each game, so people will play somewhat faster. And in competitive matches, people will endeavour to try and win, so will make sure they don't run out of time if possible. In a friendly match with nothing to lose a small subset of people might just play slowly on purpose to annoy others; though I will say I've never had this happen to me since I've been playing the Hex Alpha.

As to implementing something like Hearthstone's showing which cards the opponent is looking at, etc, I'd generally be against it. In competitive matches, which Hex is slated to have, players will quickly learn it's better to not give anything away, so it will just add another level of annoyance as it will force players who want to do well not to mouse over the screen at all. Of course, it allows the possiblilty of bluffing by pretending to target an opponent's troop, faking a kill spell in hand; but if you want to do that, you can just use the chat anyway.

Ertzi
11-06-2013, 04:34 PM
I am one of those slower, more deliberate, think-every-strategy-through-thoughtfully-before-acting kind of players, so I would not want to see turn-timers. If there will be a mandatory, short timer on every turn in PvP, I will never play it and will only focus on PvE. I can't see how there would ever be such a timer in PvE, but if there were, that would basically ruin the game for me. I HATE time limits in games and having to rush. Thus, turn-based games.

Now, I understand that there will probably have to be some kind of insta-concede timer to a match after a long inactivity, and that is acceptable, as unlimited time would be abused otherwise by morons and sore losers. But no turn-timers, please. And 25 mins for a two-game match is not enough. 90 % of the time it is, but it annoys the heck out of me when one of the players loses to time just when the game is starting to get interesting on MTGO. Even if the player is my opponent, but I'm weird that way. I love convoluted board states and slow, grindy games and always want to play them out. Doesn't even annoy me to lose those, if the game was interesting.

What I do hate is losing to lightning-quick Boros-type decks before I have a chance to do anything. And yes, I accept that as a viable strategy and congratulations on beating me, but I just personally hate those type of decks.

At least let people play without a timer - if they want to - and everyone will be happy. I can stay out of tournaments and drafts if CZE absolutely has to implement strick time limits there.