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View Full Version : Crash of Beats is now working - check it out..Is it too powerful?



Soldack
11-06-2013, 09:25 PM
Crash of Beasts is now working.

Here is a video of it destroying the opponent. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyHei0bVr_E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyHei0bVr_E)

It really is a strong escalation card.

Do you think it is too strong?

Zarien
11-06-2013, 09:27 PM
I don't think so. Out of all of the escalation cards, it's probably the weakest because it can be controlled by board wipe.

Skirovik
11-06-2013, 09:36 PM
Yeah, getting to play 3 Crash of Beasts in a single match with a regular deck (no deck manipulation) is pretty lucky and can't be used as a justification for how powerful this card is. That said, I do want to try it out when I get home tonight. :)

tehhuntre
11-06-2013, 09:50 PM
How about with a piece of equipment that starts them off at 2, so the second time you are already at 4? pve only of course

Skirovik
11-06-2013, 09:54 PM
How about with a piece of equipment that starts them off at 2, so the second time you are already at 4? pve only of course

Don't mention things like that. I'm at work and shouldn't get too excited! My boss might ask what's up. ><

Wodahs
11-07-2013, 01:00 AM
Not OP

Eierdotter
11-07-2013, 02:17 AM
all escalation cards are OP when played 3 or more times.

but i think for 3 cost a 3/3 crush is on curve (so the only escalation card that is on curve at the first cast)
sadly it makes wild decks less innovative, since the core cards that you sort of have to include are like 5, leaving only 4 others

Kroan
11-07-2013, 02:34 AM
It's not pretty lucky. The chances of you drawing your 3rd Crash of Beast after playing the second is pretty fair.

At any point you either have Crash of Beasts in hand or four in your deck. Drawing one of those four is pretty likely;
1) There is a 40% chance to draw one opening hand.
2) If you play it on turn 3, there is a 22% chance to draw another one in your next 3 draw steps.
3) If you do draw another one at your 3rd draw after playing your second and play it right away you have a 24% chance to drawing another one in your next three draw steps.

Soldack
11-07-2013, 03:56 AM
Why did a discussion of Crash of Beasts being too powerful get moved to strategy and deck lists?

Icepick
11-07-2013, 04:40 AM
All posts about specific cards get moved here.
Anyway I think that all the Escalation effects are fine for the first couple of plays, but all of them start to become massively overpowered on the 3rd or 4th play. You can argue whether or not this is balanced out by the likelihood of that actually happening but the fact is it can, and does, happen. I heard somewhere that they are actually considering changing Escalation in some way to bring this upper end down a little.

mudkip
11-07-2013, 12:51 PM
A crush 3/3 for 3 isn't bad, but it's not OP. That said I think it's a good card.

The reason I don't see it as OP is that it's not a "winning" card until you draw 3-4 of them.

Talking of Crash of Beasts, I hope they change the art work of the Rhino. The stretched, fuzzy, zoomed-in of the Crash of Beasts is a bit tacky/lazy imo.

Zarien
11-07-2013, 01:20 PM
That and it's the easiest countered escalation card out of the bunch. There are around a dozen ways of playing against crash of beasts minimum, while only a few options help counter that 3-4 ragefire and as far as I know only counter magic will counter chronic madness effectively.

Kroan
11-07-2013, 02:03 PM
Talking of Crash of Beasts, I hope they change the art work of the Rhino. The stretched, fuzzy, zoomed-in of the Crash of Beasts is a bit tacky/lazy imo. A lot of the art in the game is not finished. I'm sure they'll fix it eventually.

As for what cards answer Crash of Beasts; As far as I know only Extinction answers it, and not very well I might add.

I'm kinda in the middle. I think both 1st and 2nd are fine, but the 3rd Crash of Beast is ridiculous strong and very hard to beat.

Zarien
11-07-2013, 02:41 PM
When I say answer, I mean that it affects the cards result in some form. For example, we've got extinction, judgement, tectonic break, inner conflict, mesmerize, multiple heat waves, murder, counter magic, etc. And i'm not even counting the creatures that can block him. Starting to see what i'm saying?

As opposed to a card like chronic madness, that is only really countered by counter magic. Or ragefire, which is only really countered by immortality/counter magic/and quick action life gains. Very different levels of "op" between crash of beasts and the others.

Eierdotter
11-07-2013, 06:02 PM
well stopping the first or second cast is not a big deal, like the other escalation cards do not hurt really much on their first casts.
but the third cast of crash of beasts has only extinction as a real answer

Zarien
11-07-2013, 06:12 PM
well stopping the first or second cast is not a big deal, like the other escalation cards do not hurt really much on their first casts.
but the third cast of crash of beasts has only extinction as a real answer

Four 3/3 creatures with crush on the third cast isn't only counterable by extinction realistically. If these guys were 5/5 or 6/6, i'd agree, but 3/3 is something almost any real deck will be able to play around.

Now, the fourth cast I would agree. But all of the escalation cards are essentially like that. 4th cast of chronic madness is a guaranteed loss, and unless they are playing a life gain deck of some sort, ragefire isn't far behind.

You at least still have options against crash of beasts on 4th cast, even if very daunting ones. I think that's the major difference between these cards.

Eierdotter
11-08-2013, 03:09 AM
Four 3/3 creatures with crush on the third cast isn't only counterable by extinction realistically. If these guys were 5/5 or 6/6, i'd agree, but 3/3 is something almost any real deck will be able to play around.

Now, the fourth cast I would agree. But all of the escalation cards are essentially like that. 4th cast of chronic madness is a guaranteed loss, and unless they are playing a life gain deck of some sort, ragefire isn't far behind.

You at least still have options against crash of beasts on 4th cast, even if very daunting ones. I think that's the major difference between these cards.

play it or play against it, you will notice it is not that bad as you think it is^^

Zarien
11-08-2013, 06:45 AM
play it or play against it, you will notice it is not that bad as you think it is^^

Lol I think there is a communication hang up, or you had a typo. You said in the post right before mine you though it was bad to play against by 3rd cast because "only" extinction is an answer. And I presented an argument showing why crash of beasts is the easiest of all the escalation cards to play against.

Lol, never once said I thought it was bad to play against...at all.

Eierdotter
11-08-2013, 07:31 AM
ohh i was basically answering the whole thread, where your statement was "Crash of beast is the worst escalation card"

if you just check the value/cost of each escalation card, i think the general idea is
1. cast - below curve
2. cast - slightly above curve
3. cast - strong
4. cast - insane
5.+ cast - error/Game ending

without the combination of other cards or effects, milling for 3 or 6 is nearly useless, dealing 2 or 4 damage is also not that powerful. gaining a 3/3 crush or 2 of them is slightly better in my opinion (they swing several times if not answered the risk of a troop). shure they can be murdered, but that is a murder that does not target something else you have.

combining mill with booby trap is much stronger
combining damage with high damage aggro troops is also stronger
combining a 3/3 crush(3 cost) with inspire troops like haste, swiftstrike, command tower, or soul marble, etc. is also very good

and there are not many games, where wild does not have the upper hand in terms of creature state on the board. so several troops will deal damage to the opponent.

many players think that crash of beast is the strongest escalation card.
counterable of course.

in my opinion they all net the same value if played correctly.

Kroan
11-08-2013, 08:23 AM
Starting to see what i'm saying? Yes, I can see what you're starting to say... Saying a "double heatwave" or multiple "inner conflict" (or any other single removal spell) is an answer to crash of beasts is laughable and stops me taking you serious.

Zarien
11-08-2013, 10:41 AM
Yes, I can see what you're starting to say... Saying a "double heatwave" or multiple "inner conflict" (or any other single removal spell) is an answer to crash of beasts is laughable and stops me taking you serious.

The heatwave was an example, and a very possible one in ruby blood control decks. Inner conflict also disables crash of beasts effectiveness the first two casts, the same with any removal spell. The point there was that crash of beasts has more effective counters to its ability than any other escalation card. Which is just fact.


But hey, you could also just come in, misunderstand, and contribute nothing to the conversation by making statements like that when a valid observation was made. That's always helpful.

jtatta
11-08-2013, 11:10 AM
The heatwave was an example, and a very possible one in ruby blood control decks. Inner conflict also disables crash of beasts effectiveness the first two casts, the same with any removal spell. The point there was that crash of beasts has more effective counters to its ability than any other escalation card. Which is just fact.


But hey, you could also just come in, misunderstand, and contribute nothing to the conversation by making statements like that when a valid observation was made. That's always helpful.

While Kroan's approach may not have been the best, he's right in what he's trying to say. After the first Crash of Beasts, single target removal is 2-for-1'ing yourself. You're spending 1 card to negate half of their card and it's not like you gain tempo or resource advantage by doing so as Crash only costs 3. After that, they still have a 3/3 with crush that can be buffed with Root Dancer, etc. Basically, all the cards you mentioned are very poor against Crash after the first cast with the exception of the obvious Extinction. Double Heat Wave isn't really a viable option except in rare circumstances and certainly will never help you more than once. Even still, you're two for oneing yourself which is certainly not what you want to be doing.

I also don't quite understand people saying Crash is one of the worst escalation cards or that it's not game ending until the 4th cast. Wild has a lot of ways to make even one 3/3 crush troop deadly and I'm terrified even after the second cast of the card. I personally feel that it's tied with Ragefire as the best escalation card and am already working on decks that play both of them effectively.

Escalation cards in general are all just very powerful and arguing that any of them are worse than others is just like saying that you like apples more than oranges but can agree that they're both delicious.

Roy_G
11-08-2013, 11:47 AM
There's Extinction,yesterday,the guardian that prevents all damage and there will be also counter magic.There are a lot of ways to deal with it and it doesn't guarantee victory even after multiple casts.

Zarien
11-08-2013, 01:54 PM
While Kroan's approach may not have been the best, he's right in what he's trying to say. After the first Crash of Beasts, single target removal is 2-for-1'ing yourself. You're spending 1 card to negate half of their card and it's not like you gain tempo or resource advantage by doing so as Crash only costs 3. After that, they still have a 3/3 with crush that can be buffed with Root Dancer, etc. Basically, all the cards you mentioned are very poor against Crash after the first cast with the exception of the obvious Extinction. Double Heat Wave isn't really a viable option except in rare circumstances and certainly will never help you more than once. Even still, you're two for oneing yourself which is certainly not what you want to be doing.

I also don't quite understand people saying Crash is one of the worst escalation cards or that it's not game ending until the 4th cast. Wild has a lot of ways to make even one 3/3 crush troop deadly and I'm terrified even after the second cast of the card. I personally feel that it's tied with Ragefire as the best escalation card and am already working on decks that play both of them effectively.

Escalation cards in general are all just very powerful and arguing that any of them are worse than others is just like saying that you like apples more than oranges but can agree that they're both delicious.

Noone was doubting the effectiveness of "Crash of Beasts" or it's escalation effect. The question at hand that this topic was built on was "Is it too strong?". And the point of the matter is, it's not.

Yes, no doubt, that single target removal isn't going to be as effective in a card versus card scenario the second and so on time that "Crash of Beasts" come out. However, there are still a ton of ways to play against/limit the effectiveness/and counter the card "Crash of Beasts". The examples I brought up were only in regards to removal, and there are still a handful of those that limit what the card is supposed to accomplish at later points in the game.

I didn't even bring up the copious amounts of delay cards and creatures that shut down "Crash of beasts", for example "Eternal Guardian", and that's just one. The point is, you can limit/counter/play against "Crash of Beasts", even into it's 3rd-4th cast without it being a loss or hope destroyer. You can't say the same about all of the other escalation cards, and that is the reason the comparisons are drawn between a card like "Crash of Beasts", and a card like "Chronic Madness". You cast "Chronic Madness" a 4th time, and that's game.

So while "Crash of Beasts" might be an "apple", and a card like "Chronic Madness" an "orange", there are still more ways to slice/crush/peel/bake/cook that "apple" than there are that "orange", and that was my point.

jtatta
11-08-2013, 03:03 PM
Zarien, I actually disagree with you on nearly everything that you've said. You seem very difficult to reason with. There are just as many ways to combat Chronic Madness as there is Crash of Beasts.

Zarien
11-08-2013, 03:09 PM
Zarien, I actually disagree with you on nearly everything that you've said. You seem very difficult to reason with. There are just as many ways to combat Chronic Madness as there is Crash of Beasts.

I'm not trying to be difficult whatsoever. I was clarifying my reasoning, and i'm more than welcome to any reasoning that constructively counters it. There are a lot of ways to counter cards like ragefire, and I would have agreed on that point, but in Set 1, there are not a lot of ways to counter Chronic Madness, the card itself, beyond killing your opponent before the fourth cast, or counter magic.

If i'm missing something else that counters Chronic Madness's effectiveness in some form beyond those two methods, please inform me, because I would be genuinely curious on your reasoning. I'm genuinely open to discussion and your reasoning for disagreeing.

Storm_Fireblade
11-08-2013, 04:19 PM
There are just as many ways to combat Chronic Madness as there is Crash of Beasts.

While I'm not taking any sides here, that part I really would like to have explained as well :)

jtatta
11-09-2013, 12:34 AM
I'm not trying to be difficult whatsoever. I was clarifying my reasoning, and i'm more than welcome to any reasoning that constructively counters it. There are a lot of ways to counter cards like ragefire, and I would have agreed on that point, but in Set 1, there are not a lot of ways to counter Chronic Madness, the card itself, beyond killing your opponent before the fourth cast, or counter magic.

If i'm missing something else that counters Chronic Madness's effectiveness in some form beyond those two methods, please inform me, because I would be genuinely curious on your reasoning. I'm genuinely open to discussion and your reasoning for disagreeing.

Pack Raptor and The Ancestor's Chosen are two widely played cards that add several cards to your deck. It's not uncommon to have an extra 10+ cards in your deck due to these effects which negate the first two Chronic Madness casts. Cosmic Totem is another card that can counter it although that card is pretty bad in a vacuum. Chronic Madness also has the fact that it does absolutely nothing to affect the board going against it as well.

You can come back by saying, "well the 5th madness definitely kills you." I agree with that statement but also I can counter with any of the escalation cards kill you on the 5th cast to a certain point. I understand that Extinction "counters" 16 3/3 crush Rhino's but you have to deal with the previous four casts first. The first three Chronic Madnesses do absolutely nothing. Not really sure how people can make the argument that it's one of the best escalation cards.

What I want to know is what are the "a lot of ways" to deal with Ragefire outside of unreleased cards and matching Ragefires with the same number of Eternal Youth?

If you want to know if Crash of Beasts is too good, as per the original question in this thread, the answer is yes. I'll also say that for Ragefire and, to an extent, Eternal Youth. Chronic Madness, while being a good card due to the escalation mechanic, is actually pretty poor in a vacuum because, as I said, does nothing to affect the board in any way.

Zarien
11-09-2013, 03:14 AM
I'll agree with Pack Raptor. Ancestors Chosen is debatable, any decent deck is going to limit its ability to get 10 or so cards out (i'll give you 4-6 on average). But even then, we're talking about four cards counting counter-magic (though not released yet), and one of them unreliable that counter/reduce the effect of Chronic Madness. That's not very many. Any game that's gone on long enough for a 4th cast of Chronic Madness, has probably had enough turns that it's over with it's 4th cast.

Noone was making the argument that Chronic Madness was one of the best escalation cards, only that it has very few counters. You're absolutely right, the first three casts are dead, unless you're playing sabotage, which they would be, but lets just assume you haven't gotten one off in this scenario. Chronic Madness is meant for the control/mill type decks to begin with though, where its likelihood of coming into play is increased because of all of the draw/card cycling associated with that color and the colors it best synergizes with, like blood for example. Either way, it still has a very limited amount of counters, even if it doesn't shine until its 3rd-5th cast.

In regards to ragefire, and the "lot of ways", I figured the ways would have been a given so I didn't list them, but i'll list a bunch of them for the benefit of others. Eternal youth, blinding light, immortality, soothing breeze (though obviously loses it's effectiveness after the third cast, but it still helps limit the damage), eternal guardian, life siphon, lifedrain troops if you can respond to the damage though depends on the situation obviously, pact of life helps reduce as well but not effectively later. There are definitely not only 3 or 4 ways is the main point there.

Is crash of beasts good? Yes, it's a very solid but counterable/playable against card, that increases in effectiveness as the game goes on incredibly long. Is it too good? Debatable still. We're still talking about a wild color that, that has a lot fewer options for cycling it's cards to get those crash of beasts out into play. Obviously these escalation card's effectiveness skyrocket as the decks get down to 10-20 cards, especially as a result of an effect like demented demolisher or something. But those type of matches are supposed to be over way before then at that point to begin with typically.

Overall though, I think most of these escalation cards are well balanced. I think if there is any change that could put them more into line, is if they increased in cost by 1 or something each time they are played to reduce their recycling ability as the decks get into those lower 10-20 cards left numbers in a match.

jgsugden
11-14-2013, 10:34 AM
Ancestor's Chosen is not like Pack Raptor. Ancestor's Chosen creates cantrips that allow you to draw ehenever they're drawn and they don't start to appear in your deck that often until you have a lot of extra resources to pay for them. And, generally, when an opponent uses a removal / damage card to kill your one cost creature, it is a win for you. Pack Raptor is ridiculously different and less effective without supporting cards that do not yet exist, yet.

Right now, amongst the escalations, only Ragefire is worth using if you're trying to build the best deck you can. They others are fun, but are significantly inferior to Ragefire.

jtatta
11-14-2013, 10:57 AM
Ancestor's Chosen is not like Pack Raptor. Ancestor's Chosen creates cantrips that allow you to draw ehenever they're drawn and they don't start to appear in your deck that often until you have a lot of extra resources to pay for them. And, generally, when an opponent uses a removal / damage card to kill your one cost creature, it is a win for you. Pack Raptor is ridiculously different and less effective without supporting cards that do not yet exist, yet.

Right now, amongst the escalations, only Ragefire is worth using if you're trying to build the best deck you can. They others are fun, but are significantly inferior to Ragefire.

The current streamers tournament proves this wrong with Crash of Beasts being the standout escalation card. Chronic Madness decks haven't been faring too well. Even Eternal Youth has been a key component in the blood/diamond control decks. I'm not saying Ragefire is any less powerful than you're leading on, but the other ones are quite good.

Personally, I think Crash is better than Ragefire but they're certainly close. EY and CM are pretty far behind those two.

Malakili
11-17-2013, 09:52 AM
All the escalation cards are disproportionately powerful currently because there is no way to slow them down. It's a problem with spells in general right now and will remain a problem until the full set is implemented and a reasonable metagame can actually develop. Until then, most of the discussion about what is "too powerful" is basically a waste of time.

jgsugden
11-20-2013, 06:51 PM
Power is relative, and you can't see what it needs to be compared to without a complete meta. There will be a lot of strategies that focus on escalation and deck thinning. I already played a deck with nothing but resources, cantrips, ragefire, and our favorite resource removal cards and it was effective - in this environment. When you start tossing out counterspells, etc... it will be a joke.

jgsugden
11-20-2013, 06:55 PM
Chronic Madness, by the way, is going to be playable in constructed. Counters + Champion that mills + socketed troops that mill 8+ cards when they enter play + etc... is solid. I don't think it will be dominant or anything, but it will be a solid 2nd tier option.

FlyingMeatchip
11-22-2013, 08:46 AM
I like pack raptors better than Crash oB