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poizonous
11-23-2013, 05:29 AM
With everyone saying that Fist needs a nerf, it made me think of alternate options around Fist not getting a nerf.

What about if Chlorophylia didnt produce 2 Wild Threshold? That would make Fist turn 3 almost impossible, barring the inevitable 3 howling brave opening hand.

The way I see it is this is a fair option. Fist being able to come out turn 3 needs a nerf. So if Chlorophylia gets a nerf than Fist could stay the same? I think if Fist could only hit the field turn 4 or later, he is plenty fine, but with him hitting field turn 3 it is unacceptable.

Anyway, I am open to constructive opinions about this, please leave the troll remarks in your heads.

Gwaer
11-23-2013, 05:33 AM
Honestly, fist isn't the problem, llanowar elf is... =P I really didn't expect to see a card like howling brave in set one. Green ramp is very strong, but it is a big combo, and should be rewarded when it goes off. Burn that elf or counterspell the fist. Or inner conflict it.

Just make sure you get your fist response out before the green blue fist spellshield comes out.

poizonous
11-23-2013, 05:36 AM
Well removing the threshold from the Howling Brave would help cut it to a turn 4 Fist, so even that is a viable option.

escapeRoute
11-23-2013, 06:03 AM
Honestly, fist isn't the problem, llanowar elf is... =P I really didn't expect to see a card like howling brave in set one. Green ramp is very strong, but it is a big combo, and should be rewarded when it goes off. Burn that elf or counterspell the fist. Or inner conflict it.

Just make sure you get your fist response out before the green blue fist spellshield comes out.

brave should really give u only mana and no threshnold actually ot it should take away 1 threshold when it dies, so that it gives u the buff only as long as hes alive... same for chlorophillia or how the hell it is written... yes for the mana, no for the threshold (or maybe only one threshold) and then we are fine

fist isnt broken, i see it as a pretty decent card (maybe it should be a 6/4 pr a 6/5.. not that it matters since it is invincible, but still it may mean a lot in some situations with crush)....

Kilo24
11-23-2013, 08:07 AM
Nerfing cards by nerfing other cards is a risky prospect at best. Mana ramp is a classic green staple, and one that helps flesh the color/shard out beyond having big guys with big damage. I personally think Chlorophyllia is fine as is; no charges, 3 cost, 2 threshold and no immediate resources limit it a good bit.

I still think Fist should get a nerf over any other options. I'd be curious to see something like a 2/6 Fist with Rage 2, Crush, Invincible and must-attack-if-possible, personally.

escapeRoute
11-23-2013, 08:15 AM
mana ramp is a fine strategy, but u gotta admit this didnt happen in magic on t2 so something is wrong...

first of all, u took away ur lands from the deck.., wich here isnt happening (it can be a good thing and a bad thing, depending on the situation)

second, even when u had cards that gave u 2 mana the didnt give u those mana in the same turn... and not for that cost... one of the strongest mana ramp ever was a 3 cost card called kodamas reach... it gave u one land, tapped and another one in ur hand (so that u could put it in game the next turn).
here on hex u get 2 mana for the next turn AND u get to play another one... getting a +3 in one single turn if u have a shard in ur hand (or if u end up drawing it)... a bit too much.

cards that gave u 2 lands TAPPED costed 5, usually, and there was a good reason for it (if u dont take into cosinderation dark ritual...)

i think the fist its ALMOST fine as it is.. the problem is elsewere

Vengus
11-23-2013, 09:39 AM
Fist doesn't need a nerf. The only reason it looks OP is because everyone is running Blood/X decks these days and those decks can't counter troops that have invincible.

DeusPhasmatis
11-23-2013, 09:57 AM
Fist doesn't need a nerf. The only reason it looks OP is because everyone is running Blood/X decks these days and those decks can't counter troops that have invincible.

Depends what X is. Diamond has Inner Conflict, Saphire has Mesmorize and Countermagic and Polymorph: Dingler. Hell, Blood can try and force discard and/or Omen of Oblivion it out of the deck.

Vengus
11-23-2013, 11:39 AM
Depends what X is. Diamond has Inner Conflict, Saphire has Mesmorize and Countermagic and Polymorph: Dingler. Hell, Blood can try and force discard and/or Omen of Oblivion it out of the deck.
Yeah I know, but I am talking about those Blood decks that focus on destruction and use the other color for speed, survival or more destruction. I suspect most people complaining about Fist are the ones who just focus on said destruction. They destroy everything in their path and then complain when they face something that can't be destroyed. Every color has an answer, altough not all of them have been added to the alpha yet, but they are visible in the datamined files.

The problem is, destruction effects have been very powerful since the beginning of the alpha, because cards like Inner Conflict can be reverted and don't shut down card effects. Personally I am happy with Fist, because he makes people look at those alternative control cards that don't destroy things. Without cards like him, I fear cards like Inner Conflict, Mesmerize etc would quickly lose their usefulness.

Btw, people need to wait till we have side-decks before complaining about Fist. There are plenty of cards that can be used against Fist, including splashable artifacts like Chaos Key and Runic Monolith.

Genosaurer
01-19-2014, 04:54 PM
I just played against a fist deck and the dude did have it out on turn 3. I used a "heroic inspiration (+8/8 to blocking card)" on his attack turn 4 and 5. I tried to revert it on turn 6 thinking it would swap it out of attack mode (didn't work). I lost on turn 7 due to the crush on his fist + rhinoceros. There was nothing in my deck to destroy it. With perfect drawing of cards, I could have stalled it maybe 4 turns and that is just his fists. That isn't dealing with other cards he plays. I just added inner conflict to my deck due to this card, but it shouldn't have crush. It can be invincible and 6/6. It shouldn't stomp through every card you throw at it until you run out of ways to delay it.

edit: I'm using a white/blue deck

mudkip
01-19-2014, 05:17 PM
Holy necro, Batman!


There was nothing in my deck to destroy it.

edit: I'm using a white/blue deck

Fist is fine. Fist-ramp isn't even the most powerful deck at the moment.

You should include some cards in your deck to deal with biggies like this. Off the top of my head, Inner Conflict, Mesmerize and Polymorph Dingler would stop it; you could also use countermagic to stop it from being cast.

BlackRoger
01-20-2014, 06:18 AM
Fist seems strong right now because there are still not a hell lot of answers for it.
as more sets come in I'm sure we'll see new ways to deal with him.
Should he be nerfed to make him better balanced in this specific set? hard to say.

His value may also go down once better fixing is introduced, which in turn will empower multi-shard decks and make his requirement to be mono-green a bigger handicap.