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View Full Version : This is why Relentless Corruption needs a slight tweak...



havocattack
11-23-2013, 05:51 PM
As of now, all of the escalation cards do something good for the turn that they are casted, here is what they all do on their first cast and their costs:

Wild; Crash of Beasts (3 cost, 2 threshold) --- creates a 3/3 rhino with crush
Sapphire; Chronic Madness (1 cost, 1 threshold) --- mills 4 cards
Ruby; Ragefire (2 cost, 2 threshold) --- 2 damage to troop or champion
Diamond; Eternal Youth (3 cost, 2 threshold) --- heals for 4
Blood; Relentless Corruption (3 cost, 2 threshold) --- Draw 1 card from your opponents deck

The issue I see with it is this; with Relentless Corruption you are generally going to be doing nothing else for your turn (especially if it is turns 3-5), so all you gain is 1 card (on first cast) but that is not the only downside, you can also draw dud cards like a resource, honey cap (dies when played if you have no wild) etc. The chances of drawing duds will also increase as more and more cards are added to the game.

This is somewhat the same for the 2nd cast of Relentless Corruption, you get 2 cards but normally that is all you can afford to do for the turn and again, you may end up with dud cards.

The other escalations cards are guaranteed to do something nice on their 2nd cast, you get 2 rhinos, 8 cards milled, 4 dmg to troop/champ, and heal for 8... all pretty nice and all good costs. (eternal youth could even go down to 2 cost imo)

So, with all that said, I feel that Relentless Corruption is not inline with the other escalation cards. I still love the card, don't get me wrong, art is amazing too, but it seems a bit cost heavy when you may end up with junk and generally can't do anything else on the turn it is used.

I think it would be better suited as 2 cost with 2 threshold (perhaps even 3 threshold) as you still generally won't be able to do anything else the turn you cast it (if early game) and you still have the downside of possibly drawing duds.

Sorry about the wall of text, just wanted to post my thoughts on this card as I really love it but the downsides make me feel it is not inline with the others. Thanks for reading and please post your thoughts and opinions also :)

Cheers

HAVOC

Usotsuki
11-23-2013, 05:59 PM
I totally agree, seems to be now a decent card but not really on par with the other Escalation Cards.

Derringer
11-23-2013, 06:03 PM
It'd be cool if it did something like this to compensate for the possible dud-ness:

Scry (or whatever the hex keyword will be) 2 of your opponent's deck, and put 1 of those cards into your hand. All cards put into your hand this way get a threshold of B.
Escalation: after this card resolves, put it back into your deck and add 2 to the italicized number and add 1 to the bolded number.

IndigoShade
11-23-2013, 06:04 PM
First off, I have yet to even try the card. So I'm just going with my gut here, but at a glance I don't think even simply reducing it's cost to 2 would be enough to really make it worth playing. With the change to escalation no longer doubling the base value of the card, I think a good start would be to make Relentless Corruption draw 2 cards rather than 1 on the first cast, then still scale +1 card from there. At least then you would actually get positive card advantage on the first cast, even with the possibility of drawing junk from your opponents deck that you either absolutely can't use or just simply has no synergy with your deck whatsoever.

With that said, I've always like the theme of the card and the psychological effect of killing your opponent with his own cards. I'm actually not sure that wouldn't fit better in sapphire rather than blood, but whatever.

Also somewhat off-topic, I think Eternal Youth could use tweaking as well.

havocattack
11-23-2013, 06:07 PM
Also somewhat off-topic, I think Eternal Youth could use tweaking as well.

I did touch upon this in OP, now that it heals for 4 on first cast, I feel 3 with 2 threshold is too much and 2 cost 2 threshold would be better :) Didn't think it was worth a whole separate post for that though :P

Elementalist
11-23-2013, 06:07 PM
Due to the 2 threshold and the fact it's generally next turn play the card you got, I'd almost be looking at cost and threshold reduction. Especially the fact, you have a high chance of drawing a useless card (concubunny with no other rabbits on the field for example) or even just resources. All that is doing is thinning you're opponent's deck. I don't view that as being helpful.

I would estimate on average to get 1 good card, you'd probably be looking at 2 plays of relentless if not 3 plays. As 1/3 of a deck is mana, leaving ~40 cards that could also be specific to a theme your deck doesn't run, making them useless as well.

Lawlschool
11-23-2013, 06:28 PM
I think the problem with RC is that it does a couple things, but doesn't do either well enough for it to seem worth it. It's a pseudo-mill, and a pseudo-card draw. But milling 1/2/3/4 for the cost is garbage, and the down side of the dud draws makes the card draw aspect less appealing. It also only out-draws Oracle song on the fourth cast, and you're not guaranteed to get anything useful. I haven't had a chance to play around with it much, but maybe there's a niche use where it shines.

Though I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to use the cards you draw with RC on the turn you play it. That seems standard for most card draw effects.

Roknar
11-23-2013, 06:33 PM
While it's true that it seems a bit underwhelming compared to the other escalation effects. I have to say that it'll only become better over time. Right now there is no real interaction with your hand. When we start seeing cards where we can discard stuff for effect, this suddenly becomes really intersting.
Not only are you milling the opponent while not giving him access to those milled cards in cases where they might be using alot of ressurection. Your also gaining ressources, in the literal sense but also to fuel your discard.
It also becomes very powerfull with cards that interact with your handsize, since your essentially drawing cards...with escalation.

There are alot more uses for this card, but it's more of a combo card than the other escalation cards maybe. I don't think it's going to be lacking in power.

That said, however, since it starts at only 1 card, it would probably be more appealing if it only costed 2 to cast instead of 3.

VoidInsanity
11-23-2013, 07:03 PM
I think its good but currently it is outclassed by Chronic Madness in both cost and effectiveness.

Avaian
11-23-2013, 07:19 PM
I think people need to remember that it only recently was released so we could use it. I also doubt it has been extensively tested in its current form, with the escalation change. With more data they will be able to change it.

It is a difficult card to balance since it is both a card draw and a mill of sorts. It can also be a difficult card to build a deck with, you need to think of it as a card draw but you don't have a clue as to what you will draw other than resources.

As for the card itself, I feel the first cast of it is fine. It goes along with the other escalation cards as being slightly below curve on the first cast, however it is further behind on the curve compared to the others. The escalation of 1 however is a problem, I wouldn't mind testing an escalation increase by 2 instead of 1 but I am not sure if that will help.

I also feel you should remember that other card draws in blood come with a penalty, so a penalty of not having control of the cards you draw seems to me to fit blood card draw.

havocattack
11-23-2013, 07:24 PM
I think people need to remember that it only recently was released so we could use it. I also doubt it has been extensively tested in its current form, with the escalation change. With more data they will be able to change it.

Yes, it was only just released and obviously they most likely will change it somewhat, along with many other cards, but they do want our feedback, that is the point of this thread :)

poizonous
11-23-2013, 08:16 PM
I really dont see your argument here Havoc. You are comparing apples and oranges. Decks utilizing Relentless Corruption are clearly supposed to be slower and more drawn out decks that dont need immediate effect from the card. When playing crash of Beasts you are playing a deck that prefers immediate effect and hence you have it. Relentless Corruption will likely be played in decks where if you play it on turn 3 it is not a big deal as turn 4 you will more than likely be backing it up with an extinction if your opponent got a big lead after turn 3. It is very cost effective for what it does.

havocattack
11-23-2013, 08:35 PM
I don't see how I am comparing apples to oranges, but that is your opinion. One thing I do have to point out here is this, we have to look to the future. In future sets, this is what will happen; Chronic will get supported by more cards that help mill, Ragefire will always be good, a 3/3 crush rhino will always be pretty sweet, eternal youth may get other stuff it combos with but I still think it could get away with being 2 cost.

As for Relentless Corruption, it will only get weaker as I and others have mentioned in this thread, already you have plenty of things that you can steal that is completely useless to you most of the time (like the honeycap) and this will only increase with future sets.

Also, changing the cost to 2 doesn't change it that much, it allows you to play it on turn 2, but that is all you will be doing that turn. If you play it later on, at least you have the possibility of playing something else that turn.

The only reason I bring things up like this, is because during alpha is the time to do so and I think my points are valid.

ossuary
11-23-2013, 09:13 PM
The changes to Escalation in general, combined with the tweaking some of them got to their numbers on top of it, make them far worse on the curve than they used to be.

Soothing Breeze is 2 cost, 1 threshold, 7 health. Eternal Youth is now 3 cost, 2 threshold, 4 health. On the third cast, you have paid 9 resource to get 24 health, whereas 3 casts of Soothing Breeze would have got you just barely less health at 21, for only 6 resources. Plus, you can start casting it from turn 2 instead of 3, it's easier to splash in a multicolored deck, AND it's a quick action on top of it. Either the cost or the threshold of Eternal Youth needs to go down by one, and it should probably go back up to 5 health, as well.

Relentless Corruption is even worse on the scale. 3 Oracle Songs will cost you the exact same number of resources (and it has the same threshold) as Relentless Corruption, and those 3 casts gets you the same number of cards... but those cards are guaranteed to be worth your while, because you know what you have the potential to draw. Relentless Corruption also gives you zero advantage on the first cast, unlike all of the other Escalation cards, or their non-Escalation equivalents (where alternates exist). You are giving up your entire turn to get 1 card from your opponent to replace the one you just cast, which might turn out to be crap or useless, in the hopes that you will later get a better deal. That's just not in line with the rest of the Escalation cards, or the concept behind them.

Relentless Corruption needs to give you 2 cards on the first turn, then it's fine to increase by 1 from there. The penalty of the cards possibly being worthless other than denying them to your opponent is harsh enough. If you increase the first turn draw so that it actually provides a net benefit on the first go, then the cost is fine. If that number isn't going to go up from 1, then it needs to be significantly cheaper to cast - 2 cost, 1 threshold. But personally, I feel it really needs to give you an actual net gain the first time you use it.

poizonous
11-23-2013, 09:22 PM
Well sure, there are times you will get useless cards like Honeycap. I dont think that warrants a switch to 2 cost though. I am not per say arguing with you as I plan to use Corruption frequently, so I would be perfectly fine with a buff to it, but I think it is hard to warrant a buff to a card like this for the reasons you are listing. There could very well be cards in set 2 and 3 that synergize with Corruption and then if a really strong combo comes out for it, if it gets switched to 2 cost people would complain.

Grevan
11-23-2013, 09:45 PM
normally I dislike a reference to another game however this is the perfect example. So a long time ago in a land not so far away there was another cycle of cards that cost 1...

Blue = Ancestral Recall (possibly best card ever)
Red = lightning bolt (quite strong)
Green = giant growth (fairly good)
Black = dark ritual (had its day)
White = Healing salve? really? (awful)

Sometimes in cycles there are not so good ones

IndigoShade
11-23-2013, 09:49 PM
The only way I can see cards in future sets synergizing well corruption is by drawing your opponents multi-threshold cost card that gets converted to all blood threshold. Other than that, I'm not sure how you expect to combo into anything by drawing cards that are even more random than normal draws.

Sure you could get lucky and draw something from an another shard that combos well your deck that might ordinarily be difficult to splash alongside blood. It seems incredibly unlikely though that you would draw into something from your opponents deck that would fit so well with your own deck and be something that you couldn't have just played yourself in place of corruption in the first place.

Corruption draws are even more random than normal draws, and being inefficient on top of that just makes for a card that's good for nothing but goofing off with. There's nothing inherently wrong with having cards that are fun but not necessarily as competitive as others though, I guess.

havocattack
11-23-2013, 09:58 PM
As I was saying before, there is already stuff that helps out mill (fate rack, charge power, xarlox etc) and that is guaranteed to increase in future sets, all the others are fine (except maybe youth, 2 cost for it would be good and ossuary makes some good points to support this)

You (poizonous) are looking at it the wrong way, saying that it would be bad to make it 2 because they MAY bring something out later that synergizes well with it. Wouldn't it just be easier to make those new cards balanced so no broken combos are introduced? They do take those things into account after-all (I can't actually think of anything that would really combo with it though, but this is digital land and I wont rule it out) :)

Also, even if it gets a nice combo later, it still would require 2 or more cards to pull it off... the other escalation cards are great by themselves and it is clear to me that if it is left as is, then it will be somewhat under-powered in its current form, same with eternal youth.

Also, let me state this, my suggestion of 2 cost is not the only thing they could do, there have been multiple suggestions in the thread that would be viable, the main point is to get a discussion going so that the devs can read our feedback, in no way do I believe my suggestion to be the best option, just an option.

You may very well be right that 2 cost may make it too good (I personally don't think so), that is the point of alpha, to test these things out before it is too late :) They could always make it 2 cost with 3 threshold or 3 cost with drawing 2 cards first and second casts then + 1 from 3rd cast onwards etc etc... :)

I think 2 cost with 2 threshold for youth and corruption would work nicely tho, would be nice to test it out.

ossuary
11-23-2013, 10:01 PM
I'm using Relentless Corruption in my mill deck right now, but frankly it's only because Eye of Oblivion isn't in yet. I've had at least 3 or 4 games that I got 3 or more casts out of it, and I've yet to actually get a worthwhile play out of it. It's a slower, more expensive, high threshold mill that acts as a lousy card advantage trick midway through the game. As it stands, the card is too crappy to use competitively with the nerf to Escalation as a whole.

Edit to respond to havoc, who posted while I was typing: yeah, there have been several suggestions here. Personally, I can see that a 2 cost "draw some cards" spell could get overpowered or abused fairly easily, which could leave people concerned (even though the cards you are drawing trend towards crap). I feel the best solution is to leave the cost as is, and start it off at 2 cards. But reduced cost / threshold could be a valid option as well, if it's done carefully.

havocattack
11-23-2013, 10:12 PM
I'm using Relentless Corruption in my mill deck right now, but frankly it's only because Eye of Oblivion isn't in yet. I've had at least 3 or 4 games that I got 3 or more casts out of it, and I've yet to actually get a worthwhile play out of it. It's a slower, more expensive, high threshold mill that acts as a lousy card advantage trick midway through the game. As it stands, the card is too crappy to use competitively with the nerf to Escalation as a whole.

Edit to respond to havoc, who posted while I was typing: yeah, there have been several suggestions here. Personally, I can see that a 2 cost "draw some cards" spell could get overpowered or abused fairly easily, which could leave people concerned (even though the cards you are drawing trend towards crap). I feel the best solution is to leave the cost as is, and start it off at 2 cards. But reduced cost / threshold could be a valid option as well, if it's done carefully.

If they were to leave the cost and increase how many cards you draw, I feel that then getting 2 cards then 3 then 4 would be too strong. This is why I said above that they could do the first two casts at 2 cards and then from third cast onwards it adds 1, but that is kinda messy and requires more text to communicate how it works. :/

Maybe 2 cost with 3 threshold would be ok, then in mono-blood decks you still have to wait till turn 3 before you can use it. In dual-color decks you may be stuck for a while before you can use it at all.

ossuary
11-23-2013, 10:42 PM
Doesn't really feel like "escalation" if you have to wait until your 4th turn to even play something, IMO. :)

The whole point is that it's supposed to be something that starts out bad for your opponent, and just gets worse and worse. These are all rare cards (whereas Soothing Breeze and Oracle Song are COMMON!). Escalation cards should be outstripping any comparable effect by leaps and bounds. Right now, they just plain don't (especially Eternal Youth and even more so Relentless Corruption).

havocattack
11-23-2013, 11:10 PM
It is tough, however, it seems clear to me that youth and corruption definitely do need some tweaking though :) 2 cost for them is a good place to start.

Aksell
11-24-2013, 12:16 AM
Relentless Corruption is a great card. I must be experiencing a very different kind of game than others in this thread.

Honeycap? Sure if you don't steal any Wild resources it's kinda useless as a steal. But Chlorophyllia and Howling Brave can add to your Wild threshold if stolen from an opponent instead of resources.

So far though, every card I've stolen with Relentless Corruption I could use.
Thunderbird, Time Ripple, Storm Colossus, Howling Brave, 2 Wild Resources, Giant Corpse Fly...

I can't wait for a game where I steal my opponent's Resurrection, play it with my Blood only deck and wreak havoc! (ahem) Or something else...maybe that Fist of Briggadon chap?

The noticeable difference for me is that the stolen cards go straight to my hand meaning that the card scales well as the game ages. Early plays of the card help to keep my hand healthy and adds a little versatility via my opponent's deck. Later plays increase my hand more, and as I'm almost guaranteed to have lots of resources (my opponent's and my own) I can probably cast most of those cards straight away. Thus, if you can survive to get a "draw four or greater" effect from Relentless Corruption then you improve on the initially more cost effective Oracle Song.

The trick is, as always, building a deck that matches this card. And I don't think it suits a mill deck, certainly not one with Sabotage apparently! ;)

Hmm, just did a quick once over on the current card set and could only see about four or five cards that would likely be a complete waste (except under very specific circumstances). Blessing the Fallen, Honeycap, Ruby Lance, the dwarf robot synergies would be fairly weak on the thief's side (but it would weaken the opponent's synergies so perhaps it balances out). All synergies would be weak on the thief's side (Ork, Coyotle, Inspire, Shin Hare, Dwarf) but the cards are playable and can and do still contribute to one's position.

Having said all that, I'm no expert.

Gwaer
11-24-2013, 12:32 AM
I agree with Aksell honestly, I think relentless corruption is amazing, it's one of the cards I have been most looking forward to, especially in the PVE game. I have made a number of decks with it I enjoy. If it got a buff I wouldn't complain, but it certainly isn't required to be playable imo.

funktion
11-24-2013, 12:34 AM
Yeah it might not be the bees knees, not all cards are going to be. Also mind you we've been using escalation cards in their OP mode up until now so that's going to contribute towards your first impression of this one being underwhelming.

I like to find each little way in which a card suddenly becomes "the best card" and this one definitely has a few very strong applications I'd say.

havocattack
11-24-2013, 12:41 AM
I agree with Aksell honestly, I think relentless corruption is amazing, it's one of the cards I have been most looking forward to, especially in the PVE game. I have made a number of decks with it I enjoy. If it got a buff I wouldn't complain, but it certainly isn't required to be playable imo.

While you can steal amazing cards, again, you guys have to remember as more and more sets are released the card will get worse and worse and it will be too late to change it then :(

Gwaer
11-24-2013, 01:02 AM
I don't really agree with your assumptions about it being bad in the first place. It is definitely better than straight up mill, since it's card advantage for you. even resource draws can be quite good if you're running a demolisher deck for instance, keep going through your good card, discarding their bad ones you get and playing a resource? Yep. Works for me.

havocattack
11-24-2013, 01:08 AM
I never said it was bad and none of what I have said is assumptions... also better than straight up mill? it is extremely slow if you wanna use it for that -_- even as a mill support.

Gwaer
11-24-2013, 01:20 AM
The effect is better than mill, yes. For every card they lose from their deck, you gain one in your hand. That is a stronger effect than they lose a card from their deck.

"As for Relentless Corruption, it will only get weaker as I and others have mentioned in this thread, already you have plenty of things that you can steal that is completely useless to you most of the time (like the honeycap) and this will only increase with future sets."

That is an assumption, not only that it's what you're basing your entire opinion on. Just because there are more cards that may be difficult to capitalize on in relentless corruption deck, does not mean that the overall average of cards that are good to have will decrease. I have to assume it will increase because a lot more cards that you can make use of will be coming out than the ones you cannot. Even honeycap has the potential to be playable if you've hit all of the thresholds you needed and start playing their wild sources you're grabbing.

I don't really want to argue with you about it, I am just saying I think relentless corruption is a strong card, I think it has long term potential. It may not be an autoinclude in all black decks but it certainly has a place.

Resand
11-24-2013, 01:42 AM
Make it a quick action. Being able to cast at end step would help a lot.

havocattack
11-24-2013, 02:09 AM
Make it a quick action. Being able to cast at end step would help a lot.

Yep, another option they could go for, would be a decent enough upgrade to warrant it staying as its current form. :)

Roknar
11-24-2013, 07:56 AM
I've noticed alot of people complaining about drawing useless cards and also youth and corruption being worse than their counter parts.
Personally I don't think that's true at all. Take youth for example.
Sure, soothing breeze gets you more health in the short run, but you can only cast it 4 times max. In one deck I had Pact of Pain and eternal youth and I would just keep drawing cards and eventually run into another youth which more than compensated for the health loss from pact. I still had 200+ health. Soothing breeze just can't do that. So it depends on what kind of deck you want. If you just want a quick burst of health and don't intend to get to late game or don't intend to draw alot of cards, then go for soothing breeze. It's not that Youth is bad, it simply has other uses.

As for corruption. It's not meant to replace plain card draw. You can't really compare it to the oracle. And I certainly don't agree with the worthless cards. I have found that the sheer amount of ressources this card will draw, can make this worthwhile all on its own (maybe not quite at this point in time but I'm sure it will eventually). Especially in combination with a Demented Demolisher. And as I mentioned earlier, in combination with discard/handsize it most likely won't even matter if the cards themselves are any good or even playable. The fact that you have cards in your hand is all that matters. And with discard it allows you improve your position without sacrificing your own cards. And if they happen to be bouncing cards back to their library for increased effect, like the other escalation cards, replicators gambit, etc well...they do all the hard work and you get to benefit from it.

In short, I agree with poizonous that this card is meant for late game and it can be really powerful there. And while I can see why one might want to give it a slightly better start I don't agree with that being due to the effect of the card itself. In order to be become a real threat the other escalation cards also need to be cast like 3 times and by that time I've found corruption to also be quite beneficial to me despite not being able to use it to its full potential just yet.

ossuary
11-24-2013, 08:04 AM
I hadn't thought of the quick action option because the rest of the escalation cards are all basic. To be honest, that might actually make it situationally TOO good, especially against a control deck that uses deck manipulation to get the card they want on top (peek, etc.). Oh, you stacked your good card on top? Thanks! CORRUPTION...

It's certainly an option, and an interesting one. It definitely would give RC a much more control feel.

I've played with it quite a bit over the weekend, now that we're actually able to complete more games than crash again, and I still feel pretty strongly that it's significantly underpowered compared to the other Escalation cards. And that's in decks built specifically to use it, whereas the wild and ruby Escalation cards are good enough to throw into pretty much any deck you build in that shard. It's just missing something.

What if it was only 1 or 2 cost, but 3 threshold, and starting at 1 card drawn? That way, you couldn't play it until your third turn, but there's at least the possibility that you can still play one of your opponent's (lower cost) cards the first time you use it, so that it's not a completely wasted turn. If you wanted to keep it balanced, you could have the casting cost escalate along with the number of cards it pulls, so it doesn't get crazy cheap in the late game.

If you look at what other decks would be doing with their common/uncommon 3 cost cards on turn 3, Relentless Corruption just doesn't stack up as a rare that you've built the deck around. Wild, if they've hit their ramp cards, are actually going to drop Chlorophilia on turn 2, and have 5-6 resources to drop something huge on turn 3. Sapphire MIGHT waste their 3rd turn casting Oracle Song, but even if you do, you're at least getting card advantage out of that move. Diamond should be swinging at you with a 4/4 Righteous Paladin, while sitting on 25-28 health (turn 1 scrivener, turn 2 paladin, turn 3 soothing breeze or eternal youth). Ruby has a couple of ragers on the board, and maybe is even casting Zoltog if you pulled a crimson clarity. Meanwhile, your Relentless Corruption deck just... took one card from your opponent's deck, giving you no card advantage and a card that might very well be useless, and leaving you with no mana to respond to anything your opponent does next. It feels wrong.

havocattack
11-24-2013, 08:45 AM
Exactly ossuray, doesn't feel right at the moment.

jgsugden
11-24-2013, 09:23 AM
Exactly ossuray, doesn't feel right at the moment.Then stop feeling him.

One thing to consider: You need to evaluate this card in the current meta as well as in future metas. We're going to get cards that let us look at the top of an opponent's deck or forces enemies to put cards from their hand or in play onto the top of their deck. This card can't be allowed to be balanced without considering this future. Of all the escalation cards, this is the one with the most potential for manipulation.

Regardless, right now, it is fine. On the first cast, you mill an opponent for one card, and most of the time you'll get a card back with some use. The second casting mills for 2 and gets you back 2 cards... with the third and fourth casting getting into that ridiculous escalation zone.

I use it in my mill deck rather than Chronic. Why? In four castings of this card I get to mill 10 cards from my enemies and draw 10 cards (for a net benefit of 6 cards). 4 Chronics allow me to mill 30 cards. HOWEVER, that is all they do. In 4 castings of Chronic, I have used 4 draws and done nothing that slows down my enemy. That makes it less likely that I'll get to that 4th casting. This card at least provides me with some resources to counter the enemy advance, especially in the mid to late game. That low casting cost on Chronic is convenient early in the game to allow me to cast it and get it back in my deck ASAP. But in the medium to late game it means little as I will have plenty of resources to mill enemies. Those net benefit 6 cards (10 drawn from enemy deck minus 4 corruption draws) will be huge. It may take me longer to mill my foe with this deck - but I'll be in a better position to survive long enough to do it.

Personally, I think we're going to see Ragefire changed before alpha ends. I think it will be limited to troop targets only. I think that is the change that is most required to balance escalation cards, still.

Gwaer
11-24-2013, 09:26 AM
Exactly Roknar, I really think people aren't grasping its potential.

stiii
11-24-2013, 11:42 AM
Is it really a problem if this card in a cycle is less powerful than the others? It is pretty much impossible for all cards to be equal in power level when they do different things. There is also the fact that milling don't really do anything the first time to play it either.

funktion
11-24-2013, 03:46 PM
is it really a problem if this card in a cycle is less powerful than the others? it is pretty much impossible for all cards to be equal in power level when they do different things. There is also the fact that milling don't really do anything the first time to play it either.

this

havocattack
11-24-2013, 04:09 PM
Personally, I think we're going to see Ragefire changed before alpha ends. I think it will be limited to troop targets only. I think that is the change that is most required to balance escalation cards, still.

I actually had an idea for this also, ragefire can target troops as normal but then it has TWO-SHOT target champion ability, so twice per game you can use it against your opponents face, thus making people actually think about it a little, especially if it is not enough to deal fatal damage as you will need other supporting cards to finish them off.

ossuary
11-24-2013, 08:59 PM
Escalation used to be so easy to understand... now we're talking about making some of them two-shot (a new keyword)? Yeesh. :)

As it is, it hardly even makes sense to have the term "Escalation" as a keyword anymore, since they now have to explain exactly how many each card increases by each time it's used (since we're no longer doubling).

Gwaer
11-24-2013, 09:53 PM
That's going a little far. Now the escalation just increases by the base amount every time doesn't it? All that start at 4 add 4 each cast. All that start at 1 add 1 each cast?

ossuary
11-24-2013, 10:03 PM
They do, but read the card text. The mechanic description is no longer uniform, it actually describes out the exact math of each card. Before they all said the exact same thing - each time, double the bold number. So it's not even really a keyword anymore so much as a similarly themed effect.

If it's going to be a keyword, you should just be able to put ESCALATE on there, and no further explanation is needed. But it seems like even CZE feels it's not clear anymore, because they went verbose on it.

ossuary
11-24-2013, 10:12 PM
Look at it this way. What do you get for 4 casts of the Set 1 Escalation cards?

Ruby: 20 damage (victory).
Wild: Ten 3/3 crush troops (probably victory)
Sapphire: Mill your opponent for 40... very close to victory, especially if they've been drawing themselves or you add extra mill.
Diamond: 40 health. This by itself won't win you the game, but it will keep you alive a long time and synergizes with all kinds of stuff (like pact of pain to cycle your deck).

And then there's blood: 10 random, mismatched cards, 4 of which are just replacing what you cast to get them. This will not even come close to winning you the game, and barely slows your opponent down unless you HAPPEN to luck into their wincon.

I built a couple of decks entirely around Relentless Corruption to try to really make it shine, and it just doesn't do it. It is way too slow, and way to expensive for what you get. The best I ever got was to eventually overwhelm their board with spiderspawns from Xarlox on turn 17. The fact of the matter is that all of the other escalate cards are designed to win you the game if you cast them multiple times (or keep you alive to win the game in the case of EY), but when you look at Relentless Corruption in that light, it just doesn't have the punching power that any of the others do.

Gwaer
11-24-2013, 10:24 PM
Relentless corruption is just as different as eternal youth in that light. That's why. It's a heavy control card. It keeps threats in your hand and increases your options. It makes your opponent have to worry about not only your counters but their own. It's a really good card. I've played with it a lot. I enjoy it and it is plenty strong. As I said before a buff would be okay, but it's not necessary to make it a viable card. And I agree with stiii as well that even if it were a little weaker that's okay too. Power levels should fluctuate between incarnations.

i think the increased verbosity of the escalation cards has a lot to do with the fact that they have recently changed and want to make it as clear as possible. I'm certain it will be shortened by release to something along the lines of increase the bold number by X (with them just writing the base value in the description) or "increase the bold number by it's starting value."

havocattack
11-24-2013, 10:34 PM
You don't seem to want to address the fact that in future sets it will most likely continue to get weaker, no other escalation card will get weaker :/

Thinking ahead even just 2 years from now, we can't even imagine the crazy shenanigans that CZE have planned for us, but I would bet on the number of dud draws that will be possible will only increase with each new set.

To me, that alone is enough of a drawback and honestly making it 2 cost wouldn't make it OP, or even 2 cost 3 threshold or 3 cost quick action etc etc... it just needs a slight tweak, nothing major.

Gwaer
11-24-2013, 10:43 PM
I actually did address that in that I believe your logic is flawed. As they release new sets more cards you can capitalize on will be coming out than the ones you can't. And even of the cards you listed you can make use of many of them with corruption.

post 29

Ebynfel
11-24-2013, 10:45 PM
You don't seem to want to address the fact that in future sets it will most likely continue to get weaker, no other escalation card will get weaker :/

Thinking ahead even just 2 years from now, we can't even imagine the crazy shenanigans that CZE have planned for us, but I would bet on the number of dud draws that will be possible will only increase with each new set.

To me, that alone is enough of a drawback and honestly making it 2 cost wouldn't make it OP, or even 2 cost 3 threshold or 3 cost quick action etc etc... it just needs a slight tweak, nothing major.

But it wont get weaker with future sets. In a competitive meta, the variety of cards may change as cards are added, but each one is a piece of the puzzle that is slinging 60 cards. No matter how many cards are added, competitive decks will be a VERY well thought out and tested lineup of 60. So, you'll RC, and you'll get a resource, or another card. Plain and simple. Depending o nthe matchup, the card could be any number of setup cards, wincons, card advantage generators, burn....

Variety in card pool will not change Corruption's value at all. It simply wont. In the end, it will be denying your opponent a card(or more), and gaining one(or more) in return. That's all Relentless Corruption is, and all it will ever be. Adding new card sets simply means that the 60 you face today will be a different list after set 2 or 3. Either way, the decks are going to do something. And RC helps prevent them from doing that something. Which is what control decks do....

Patrigan
11-25-2013, 01:32 AM
I actually believe that RC will only get better in due time. This is mostly due to inevitable power creep.

Example: Rush
Currently there is little choice to make a great rush deck, next set might introduce some new great low cost troops and that will make rush players switch out the current bad ones for these new good ones. Meaning that you'll now no longer be able to draw these worse rushers. If next set only introduces worse troops, the rush players won't make any change and you won't feel these new worse cards at all.

Same theory applies for a mid game aggro strategy. Similar cases can be made for burn decks.

The only potential issue with new sets is new combo decks. More combos means more cards that don't really work for you. But those decks usually sport only a few combo pieces and the rest is either tutors and control. Those are exactly the kind of cards you would want to draw in an RC deck. And those cards will also only get better over time.

In general, when deckbuilders have the option between a really specialized card that is slightly stronger than the more versatile weaker card, they should usually go for versatility. This decision alone makes RC a great card and lowers the amount of duds. (example: Burn champion for 3 or burn any character for 2).

Continuing on, there's resources. Those are a "dud" draw only as long as you have blood sources that you should play. After that, they're just ensuring that you can always build more resources (such that you can actually play stolen cards on subsequent casts). Not only that, but blood also has this card called Demented Demolisher (or have they already changed that one, haven't checked up on him recently). The Demolisher makes your deck a lot slimmer, while the opposing resources allow you to keep building more resources.

In general, the conclusion is that Relentless Corruption will only get better over time and might eventually even outshine some of the other cards.

Roknar
11-25-2013, 07:04 AM
And then there's blood: 10 random, mismatched cards, 4 of which are just replacing what you cast to get them.

That's drawing 10 cards. That is a pretty huge advanatage in tcg games. Granted, they're not helping you draw into your own wincon (... with the current card pool that is.), but your still drawing 10 cards IN ADDITION to milling 10 ( which is more powerful than ordinary mill).


Variety in card pool will not change Corruption's value at all. It simply wont

That's just plain wrong. Currently there is little to no interaction with cards in your hand. When they add this, RC will become much more powerful. Also the more cards they add that add more powerful cards to the opponents library the more you benefit from RC.

I don't see how you can say that adding to the card pool will not change RC's value.

Svenn
11-25-2013, 07:51 AM
Relentless Corruption seems okay for a milling deck from what I've tested, but outside of that it's too random and too expensive to be worth it. At a cost of 3 just to replace what's in your hand with something that is likely just a resource from a color you don't need the first cast is pretty terrible. I like the idea of the first cast being 2 cards and then it increasing by 1 with every Escalation.

The problem with drawing from your opponent's deck is that it is very likely that those cards won't be very good for you. Card draw from your own deck means getting to the specific cards/combos in your deck that you want... but drawing from your opponent is just crossing your fingers and hoping you don't get something completely worthless to you.

poizonous
11-25-2013, 02:46 PM
Relentless Corruption seems okay for a milling deck from what I've tested, but outside of that it's too random and too expensive to be worth it. At a cost of 3 just to replace what's in your hand with something that is likely just a resource from a color you don't need the first cast is pretty terrible. I like the idea of the first cast being 2 cards and then it increasing by 1 with every Escalation.

The problem with drawing from your opponent's deck is that it is very likely that those cards won't be very good for you. Card draw from your own deck means getting to the specific cards/combos in your deck that you want... but drawing from your opponent is just crossing your fingers and hoping you don't get something completely worthless to you.

Come on seriously? Drawing cards, even cards you may not necessarily need that your opponent definitely needs is a huge advantage. Decks running relentless corruption are also pretty much control decks and I know a ton of control decks that run secret labratory, guess what? If you draw a dead card it is just simply discard fuel for the secret lab.

Xenavire
11-25-2013, 04:13 PM
While I think relentless corruption is fairly interesting, I do have a problem with it. I feel that corruption should fit a different role than theft of cards, and it should instead give things -1/-1 or something similar. But just giving things -1/-1 is a bit boring, and you dont want to just escalate that to crazy levels, or its just a crappy kill spell.

I am also a bit sad about persecute... It had an interesting effect that got changed to something vanilla and boring. So I think Relentless corruption should just undergo a change - people are already saying it isn't working, but if you make any more powerful it will become broken. So a comeplete redesign seems much more fair. Blood would get an equal escalation card (not under or overpowered), and it would also take the pressure off with the coding - converting the threshold and updating it it and all the other problems inherent in taking from another persons deck could just be sidestepped for now, and re-emerge another time.

poizonous
11-25-2013, 05:16 PM
Who is saying it isnt working? It is working perfectly

jgsugden
11-25-2013, 05:18 PM
Many of you are underestimating the card. If you do not like it, do not use it. However, I have two very different decks that use this card, and both of them work very well.

Ritter
11-25-2013, 06:21 PM
If anyone is interested in some real examples of it being used in game, I have posted several videos of a Sapphire/Blood control deck which uses 4x Relentless Corruption. To restate what others have said in terms of games other people can view themselves, it has neither been terrible or amazing, but somewhere in between. Games where I drew 3 copies of RC, it was a card advantage machine netting me +3 cards. In the games where I drew 1 copy, it was simply replacing itself. Most times it hit a resource as expected (most decks run 1/3 or more of their deck as resources so statistically you are going to hit sources more often than anything else, unless they have filled up their deck with Pack Raptors or Ancestral Specters).

Of the cards I have grabbed from my opponents deck, I was on track to kill one person with their own Volcannon/Pterobot until the game ate my Time Mastery and that was basically enough to put me way behind again. Other games I used my opponents own Burn to kill them. Some games, it was just the resource drop that I needed to reach my bigger plays later in the game.

I would definitely say it feels a little weak until the third time you cast it, and then it feels really powerful. I could see it start at 2 cards and escalate up +1. As it stands, you really gain no significant value (you could potentially hit cards that literally have little to no value to you) unless you draw your third copy of RC before you lose/win the game. Again, this is all from purely personal play experience and if anyone wants to see what I'm talking about, feel free to check out the games.

chi
11-25-2013, 06:23 PM
While I think relentless corruption is fairly interesting, I do have a problem with it. I feel that corruption should fit a different role than theft of cards, and it should instead give things -1/-1 or something similar. But just giving things -1/-1 is a bit boring, and you dont want to just escalate that to crazy levels, or its just a crappy kill spell.

You're corrupting your opponent's cards so that they work for you instead. Doesn't that seem like a kind of corruption?

Xenavire
11-25-2013, 09:04 PM
You're corrupting your opponent's cards so that they work for you instead. Doesn't that seem like a kind of corruption?

Still feels more like theft than corruption... I mean if it worked like sabotage, that it steals their draw and the card goes to your hand, then I could feel the corruption vibe, but it just feels like a weaker version of Magic's Blatant Theivery. If I want some corruption, I will go for the destruction effects, since those fit the theme better...

Corruption just sounds like a death and decay kind of motif, thats all.

Gwaer
11-26-2013, 12:05 AM
It's corrupting them to blood threshold instead of whatever threshold. Your idea of corruption seems very flawed to me. When you hear about corrupt cops and corrupt organizations you really think they're dying or zombies or something? I'd say the problem is not in the card...

Livewire
11-26-2013, 04:53 AM
They way I see this escalation card is not "Oh look I got X card to beat my opponent with." but in fact "Oh look I took X card from my opponents deck NOW HE CAN'T USE X."

So although you may draw a "dud" it could be something his build relies on getting out on the field.

Kilo24
11-26-2013, 06:59 AM
They way I see this escalation card is not "Oh look I got X card to beat my opponent with." but in fact "Oh look I took X card from my opponents deck NOW HE CAN'T USE X."

So although you may draw a "dud" it could be something his build relies on getting out on the field.
...You may pull out all the Xs they need, but you may also have pulled out all the cards in front of the X they need. Unless they're drawing enough to run out of cards, using tutors, or they're manipulating the order of the top of their deck, you're as likely to help as to hurt them; even given that, on the first case you've already won the game if they run out of cards, in the second case there really are no traditional tutors in Hex PVP, and the third... well, it is a valid use if they're playing cards like Peek or Captain of the Dragon Guard.

Without them having some form of graveyard recursion, Relentless Corruption's card denial has precisely the same effect that milling has on card denial. The only difference is that you have the option of hiding which cards were denied by not playing them.

Roknar
11-26-2013, 08:23 AM
In terms of pure card denial without graveyard recursion, then yes. But in addition you steal those cards. and after about the third cast you can just about play two decks at once, since your going to be drawing through your opponents deck faster than they are. Without the ablity to put out extra ressources you're most likely not going to be able to keep up with all the ressources your getting either. The ressource denial is no better than ordinary mill, but in this case your fueling your own deck as well. In terms of ramp it's not as good as other cards but this makes it excellent at improving your late game advantage. Your opponent won't be able to keep up.

havocattack
11-26-2013, 04:14 PM
In terms of pure card denial without graveyard recursion, then yes. But in addition you steal those cards. and after about the third cast you can just about play two decks at once, since your going to be drawing through your opponents deck faster than they are. Without the ablity to put out extra ressources you're most likely not going to be able to keep up with all the ressources your getting either. The ressource denial is no better than ordinary mill, but in this case your fueling your own deck as well. In terms of ramp it's not as good as other cards but this makes it excellent at improving your late game advantage. Your opponent won't be able to keep up.

Or you are dead cause you did nothing but steal useless cards from your opponent :P

poizonous
11-27-2013, 12:45 AM
Or you are dead cause you did nothing but steal useless cards from your opponent :P

HAVOC you are not acknowledging my 1st point I made about the card. Most decks running Corruption are running secret lab, so even useless cards become discard fuel for the lab.

Roknar
11-27-2013, 03:02 AM
Or you are dead cause you did nothing but steal useless cards from your opponent :P

You can't isolate RC and only consider it for what it does on it's own RC is control card and a very potent one after a few iterations of escalation. Somebody running RC is most likely going to aim for late game. Your going to be running things like extinction to weather the storm of the first few turns. If your deck is doing its thing, your opponent won't be able to kill you, that's the whole point after all. And then later you move yourself into a win position.

Control is the name of the game here. Running eternal youth in a burn deck makes no more sense than using RC in deck that aims for early to mid game. RC is powerful enough at the moment in that role, albeit slightly slow. Making it cost 2 would make it more interesting, starting at 2 draws might be too powerful, but I think it would work too.

I think your still underestimating just how powerful this card is at higher escalation values. The fact that you sometimes draw useless cards is almost inconsequential. Look at Enter the Infinite from mtg, your going to draw almost only "useless" cards, would you consider that card bad?

escapeRoute
11-27-2013, 03:03 AM
HAVOC you are not acknowledging my 1st point I made about the card. Most decks running Corruption are running secret lab, so even useless cards become discard fuel for the lab.

wich is still a pretty useless thing to get for 3 mana, expecially early... it can becomes strong at the 3rd/4th cast IF u get there and if u are lucky with the draws... but u gotta consider that the first time u cast it u are probably loosing the turn to do it (or u are doing it mid/late game)

its so situational... it can be strong, but not op

Eierdotter
11-27-2013, 04:31 AM
i consider this rather a fun card than anything else

or maybe a "lets draw his wincondition, since i have none in my pure control deck"

maybe reduce the cost to 2

or increase cost to 5 and carddraw to 2...

poizonous
11-27-2013, 11:51 AM
wich is still a pretty useless thing to get for 3 mana, expecially early... it can becomes strong at the 3rd/4th cast IF u get there and if u are lucky with the draws... but u gotta consider that the first time u cast it u are probably loosing the turn to do it (or u are doing it mid/late game)

its so situational... it can be strong, but not op

If you paid attention to the mirror match me and Ne0 had you will know that secret lab is a key component in the deck and that having some extra stuff to discard for it is far from useless

escapeRoute
11-27-2013, 11:58 AM
If you paid attention to the mirror match me and Ne0 had you will know that secret lab is a key component in the deck and that having some extra stuff to discard for it is far from useless

secret lab is a great card but u will more often than not have a land to spare... if with 2 relentless u draw 3 lands i will hardly call u a lucky son of a bitch cause u have 3 lands to discard with secret lab :P

ofc an extra card for that drawing machin is allways helpfull but that doesnt make relentless a broken card... i can get them too from my deck with an oracle song...

on top of that... u just used 3 mana to cast relentless and 1 mana to use secret lab wich makes 4 mana for 1 draw... why not using the oracle song or a bottle, it would cost u 3 mana and give u 1 card, 1hp and 1 charge

dont get me wrong, every draw is far from useless, i tend to use strong words cause, i dont know, i feel they help me showing my point... drawing is something u want to do everytime is possible ofc... more cards in hand, more possible choices and uses for the card u have, but still i wouldnt call a shard in my hand at turn 6 a lucky or even a good draw cause i can use it with my secret lab

i like relentless and i feel its a strong card, but i dont think it really need tweaks :/

Alaeryn
11-27-2013, 01:29 PM
i like relentless and i feel its a strong card, but i don't think it really need tweaks :/

I agree for the most part.
If this card is going to exist, it should not be tweaked at all. I know everyone is saying it's possibly weak. Well it's possibly extremely strong as well. If this card read "Draw a Card. Escalate 1" people would be all about it. I was using a mono-blood control deck against a friend of mine who was also using Life Siphons. He was using RC and other draw cards. Ended up casting RC 3 times and took 2 of my life siphons, casting 4 total for the win (2 of his and 2 of mine). In My mono-blood deck, I have very few ways of getting damage through. Life Siphon being the primary one. He was also using Secret Lab (smart) and using it to discard my removal cards, because I have minimal creatures in this deck (and he knew that). Who wouldn't want to steal a Life Siphon? Or someone's Countermagic? Also drawing a Resource isn't irrelevant. It's more resources in your deck and as long as you already reached the thresholds you have designed your deck to reach, you're only getting more resources without having to draw it yourself (and possibly getting that 4th resource I was needing to Extinct the board).

Its a Draw/Mill combo card- don't make it stronger.

Personally, I don't like the idea of my cards being in someone else's hand, we create decks based on our own strategic mindset, using the players cards against them just isn't right in my opinion.

I would be more ok if the card cost less (even just 1) and read "reveal/look at the top 1 card (or even 2 in this case), you may convert all threshold requirements for any of the cards revealed this way and cast them/or one of them this turn. At the end of turn put these cards in the owner's library or even void them). Escalate 1 (or 2 even).

And when I said I agree for the most part I meant the card should not get stronger, at all. And I don't really like the card, I prefer my own deck. But that's just me :D

Roknar
11-27-2013, 04:35 PM
I find it interesting how this card is generating quite a bit of interest and opinions lol.
From weak and lame to strong and fun and everything in between ^^

escapeRoute
11-27-2013, 04:46 PM
I find it interesting how this card is generating quite a bit of interest and opinions lol.
From weak and lame to strong and fun and everything in between ^^

because its a situational card... it can have a ginormus power or it can be the most useless card in ur deck... it goes from game to game thus creating different feelings in people, depending on theyr first experiences with the card (the one that will stick the most in theyr brain)

at least, thats my idea

ossuary
11-27-2013, 04:52 PM
My main problem with it is that it's the only escalation card that provides zero net benefit on the first cast. Every other escalation at least does SOMETHING... this one spends 3 mana to replace itself, and nothing else. It's a 3 mana, no effect cantrip.

Move the first cast up to 2 cards, and I would have absolutely no problem with it. As it stands, you're better off casting Oracle Song than this, because you get 2 cards, and they're from YOUR deck, so you know what to expect.

Alaeryn
11-27-2013, 05:57 PM
Move the first cast up to 2 cards, and I would have absolutely no problem with it. As it stands, you're better off casting Oracle Song than this, because you get 2 cards, and they're from YOUR deck, so you know what to expect.

That is not a good idea. It doesn't just replace itself, it takes a card from the opponent, which could give you a ridiculous advantage. Anyone on here complaining that it's the worst of the escalation cards, haven't played AGAINST it to detrimental effects. I have played about two dozen times with my Mono-Blood deck, I have lost 2 games. Both of those games were due to Relentless Corruption being cast 2 or more times, stealing one of my life siphons, which is one of my 2 win cons in the deck.

I have been rather impressed with the things that CZE has done with HEX, but I'm very disappointed that they created a card that uses someone else's strategy against them. Especially when someone is playing the same color and considers it extraordinarily cheap to steal someone's cards and use it against them.

This card, even as it stands, is definitely OP, especially against people who build creative decks. It saddens me that my deck is solid, but there is a card out there that can steal my ideas and hard work. It's just ridiculous. If CZE makes this card STRONGER, then EVERYBODY and their mother is going to play it if they use Blood at all. Period. The idea of being able to not only get rid of but USE an opponents win con against them... I just don't get why people think this card needs to be stronger. If anything it needs to be weakened... and drastically.

Its about deck vs. deck people- not mine and your deck against the remainder of mine.

CZE- I promise you, I'm making the most sense out of anyone on this forum, because I truly understand what this card is capable of.

*rant over*

Alaeryn
11-27-2013, 06:05 PM
That's drawing 10 cards. That is a pretty huge advanatage in tcg games. Granted, they're not helping you draw into your own wincon (... with the current card pool that is.), but your still drawing 10 cards IN ADDITION to milling 10 ( which is more powerful than ordinary mill).



That's just plain wrong. Currently there is little to no interaction with cards in your hand. When they add this, RC will become much more powerful. Also the more cards they add that add more powerful cards to the opponents library the more you benefit from RC.

I don't see how you can say that adding to the card pool will not change RC's value.

This guy gets it.

Roknar
11-27-2013, 07:36 PM
This guy gets it.

Dem feels :P


My main problem with it is that it's the only escalation card that provides zero net benefit on the first cast. Every other escalation at least does SOMETHING... this one spends 3 mana to replace itself, and nothing else. It's a 3 mana, no effect cantrip.

Move the first cast up to 2 cards, and I would have absolutely no problem with it. As it stands, you're better off casting Oracle Song than this, because you get 2 cards, and they're from YOUR deck, so you know what to expect.

The first cast does seem quite laughable, the second is pretty decent, and from the third onward it starts going off the charts.

I said it might be ok to start at 2 cards, but I've reconsidered. That would likely make it too strong too fast. Removing the need to reach that third cast would make it too easy.
Starting at 2 mana allows you to counter in the third with a good chance of having stolen your opponents ressource to boot.

Both options would certainly make the card much more viable to be used once or twice. But, when considering the later casts, I don't really see either option being balanced.

So as it stands you can't exactly splash RC, and really have to build a deck around it (unless your playing control anyway and have free cards). And in those decks the 3 cost 1 card is just fine.
And that's not even mentioning how the card will improve over time.

I'd say they should simply leave the card as it is. It will already garner enough hate due to being a bribery on steroids lol. No need to make it even stronger ( read broken ;) )

ossuary
11-27-2013, 09:12 PM
CZE- I promise you, I'm making the most sense out of anyone on this forum, because I truly understand what this card is capable of.

*rant over*

Saying you are the most reasonable doesn't make it true. Especially since the very next words out of your mouth are "rant over," a clear indication that you were speaking with passion and not with reason. Nice try, though.

If your deck only has 2 wincons, or is otherwise vulnerable to loss due to the removal of 3-5 cards (that would be 2 or 3 casts of RC in its current form), perhaps it's not quite as strong as you think it is, just pretty good. You would also then be quite severely vulnerable to Curse of Oblivion, Countermagic, and various other simple denial effects.

Just because you happened to lose to RC doesn't automatically make it overpowered and unthinkable to investigate. I have played both with it and against it in several decks, and I continue to maintain that it is far more situational and underpowered (especially early on) compared to the other colors' escalation cards.

I am not by any means saying that all cards (or even all escalation cards) have to be equal, or that they should have the same level of power. But to me, Relentless Corruption just doesn't measure up when you look at the numbers of the other escalation cards, or what you could get (using COMMONS, no less) for the same or less resources.

You argue that it's a denial card moreso than a draw card. Fine... but if that's the case, then Chronic Madness is 4x better at denial, for a third of the cost, and only 1 threshold instead of 2, so you can start taking away your opponent's wincons on the very first turn. By trying to span both card draw and denial at the same time, RC is actually ending up too weak at both to be effective. There are better things to do with your resources.

Rather than casting RC 4 times, for mill 10 and draw 10 (of my opponent's possibly useless to me cards) for 12 resources, which I couldn't start doing until turn 3, and which would suck up all of my resources on turns 3 and effectively 4 (so I wouldn't be able to start casting what I stole until turn 5)... I would much rather just use 2 Chronic Madness and 2 Necessary Sacrifice. My opponent loses 12 cards instead of 10, I draw 6 of my own cards that I know will help me, I get to start dumping their cards on the first turn instead of the 3rd, I have open turns to play other cards (maybe even a 3rd Chronic), and it only takes 10 resources instead of 12.

I'm sorry... RC has its uses, but it's just not as good as it needs to be. It's outclassed by its common and uncommon equivalents, and by the other colors' escalation options. I don't need to go off on a rant to draw that conclusion.

Ritter
11-27-2013, 09:36 PM
I find it hard to believe people will argue so passionately about a card that is being assessed based on its alpha value after playing with it for less than a week. There have been amazing arguments made both for and against it being too powerful, not powerful enough, OP, game breaking, unfair, etc.

People need to, very much like Ossuary suggested, look at their own deck design to determine why they feel one way or another about the card. If you are getting crushed when it randomly grabs 1 out of 2 of your win conditions... I would do some retrospective soul searching about your deck design choice before slamming RC with every accusation you can come up with.

If you are having amazing results using RC to your advantage and are decimating opponents with it, then it really is up to the community to shift their deck design to accommodate the new card on the block. Metagame shifting is a real thing, and just cause this is alpha and some of you may never have played a TCG before, it's not an excuse to complain about deck building constraints.

When the beta is over, and the game is fully released to the public, there will be standard constructed matches that will have rotating sets, and as new cards go in and out of the card pool your precious deck is going to require adaptation. You are going to be forced to go with the flow of the changing metagame, and you will not have the option to sit back and complain about the design of the cards in set 4 or 5 and petition CZE to nerf a card because it is obviously OP in relation to the cards you have been playing with for the last 2 months or because the deck you built can't handle a new strategy that has been enabled by the addition of a new card. This is how the game is kept fresh and fun. Right now, I see a lot of people who had a very strict sense of what the game was like based on their alpha experience up to a point, and now they are panicking when new cards are added that seem to prey on deck designs that were previously flourishing.

Alaeryn
11-27-2013, 09:47 PM
The difference is using my win-con AGAINST me. That's different altogether than just removing it. For mill decks, tourney-wise, a sideboard consisting of something that shuffles things back into the library can give you a chance of getting it back- and mill decks try to get rid of all your cards anyway, that's their GOAL, and has existed for a long time in the TCG world. This is more than just mill. Milling my life siphon doesn't give you the opportunity to cast it against me. I don't know any card in any other TCG that actually take cards from opponents decks and put it in yours. There are some that allow you to cast cards that turn (and this is how I believe this card should act). Or if one of your win conditions is a troop of some sort, there are (and I'm sure will be more) ways to get those back. A well played Curse Of Oblivion is sure to screw anyone over. If you're playing against blue- it's all about timing.. The same tactics that have always been employed like other TCGs. I didn't "lose" to RC.. I lost to my own cards, to luck. Taking away skill completely. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather rely on skill, than lucking into stealing my opponents good cards. It just isn't right- I would feel like a prick doing it.

My primary argument is that I think it's crazy to get your opponents cards and that if it's going to stay in HEX then it DEFINITELY does not need to get stronger. And I gave my reasons. There are lots of decks in MTG that have few win conditions. (Most are control decks) and Milling is a Win-Condition and has existed in other TCGs.. if my good cards go, then there's nothing I can do about it. My argument here is this cards add's a new possible win condition (stealing your opponents).

The difference in the scenario you provided (using chronic madness and necessary sacrifice) is that if using RC and are lucky you can USE my good cards. I don't get why everyone doesn't see why this is so powerful. using Necessary Sacrifice requires sacking a creature (it also costs more), I have an opportunity to interrupt that card by killing your targeted creature, making necessary sacrifice fizzle. Milling cards doesn't give you the opportunity to use them.

I do know that there are cards out there you are going to be forced to put answers in your deck for. For RC I will be adding in Curse of Oblivion. But I refuse to use RC even though I realize how powerful it is. Because I'm not cheap.

And you forget this card gets shuffled back into your deck... meaning you can potentially cast this card 5+ times. You will see card a lot, and there's good reason.

But back to the point- my argument was against people who want to make it stronger, and give other people even better luck at snagging my good cards to use against me. It's like the deck I'm using could work AGAINST me.. and that's just not right to me.

:D

I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. And it's not that I don't like this card because I lost to it. I just don't like the idea behind. I was simply making a point by saying the 2 times I have lost with the deck I've spent lots of time on were due to lucky RC casts and my deck beating myself. Wouldn't you be more proud if you did it yourself without my help beating me?

ossuary
11-27-2013, 10:06 PM
They still beat you, by exploiting a weakness in your deck - its lack of multiple wincons, and your inability to survive the loss of a few of your cards. If they had been milled out instead of going into your opponent's hand, you still would have lost, because your wincon was gone. At that point, one of the demo decks could have beaten you with crappy creatures... what's the difference what card did the killing blow?

Ritter
11-27-2013, 10:09 PM
One of the current dominant decks in standard MTG uses a troop that steals the top card of your opponents deck whenever it deals combat damage and lets you cast it as long as that troop remains in play. You could steal a card every turn as long as it goes unanswered. So there is a very real example of a card doing exactly what you said is not present in other TCGs. It's called Nightveil Spectre.

Also, sacrificing troops is part of the cost of most cards, not a condition upon resolution of the card. As far as I know, you can't kill a troop that is currently being sacrificed to Necessay Sacrifice. It would already be in the graveyard by the time you get priority.

escapeRoute
11-28-2013, 02:31 AM
The fact, at least as i see it, is that people feel hurt on a deeper level when they see their cards used against them... It just gets more frustrating... And that is what people are bitching yelling about and why they perceive this card as stronger than what it really is.

If u counter all my cretures, thats frustrating but if i get to let one slip over ur countespells shield and then i see tuat u allowed me to play it only cause u had a card to steal it and use it against me then ill suffer a double frustration

Or, at least, thats what i think people thinks

ossuary
11-28-2013, 05:38 AM
No, that's a very good point. People have a psychological connection to their own cards, and having them taken away and used against them can be an unsettling and frustrating experience. But that kind of gameplay has existed in TCGs forever... Magic the Gathering had Control Magic, Steal Artifact, and Animate Dead in the very first set, all of which could take cards away from you. And, in the ante days, you could also use Darkpact to steal their ante card even if you lost the actual game.

Here are several examples of cards that let you steal and use cards from your opponent's library in Magic the Gathering, all of which are better than Relentless Corruption's effect, because they let you see the whole library AND pick the card you want to take (instead of just drawing a couple at random):

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/21.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/62.jpg

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/sok/36.jpg http://magiccards.info/scans/en/nph/71.jpg

This is not a new concept at all, Alaeryn. You just don't like it because you are attached to your cards and having someone else use them makes you uncomfortable. You are giving more weight to Relentless Corruption than it actually merits because of this.

jgsugden
11-29-2013, 04:58 PM
Another consideration in the power of this card: It works best in multiples of 4, and those 4 tend to stay in your deck until drawn and then immediately used and returned to the deck. We should be expecting to see a good amount of Curse of Oblivion in the meta as a counter. If any of the Escalation cards turn out to be too powerful, the Curse will become more prominant and make these (and 4 copies of other cards) riskier proposals.

Sereaphim
12-02-2013, 04:10 PM
I have no idea why people think that Relentless Corruption is a weak card.
It has so many good points.

1.
It is a win option by itself.
You can mill the enemy deck with it or you steal the enemy win option.
And the only way to stop it is a counter or remove it from the deck/hand.

2.
After the second use it generate card advantage.
And you can not only use it 4 times like for example Oracle Song.
It goes back to your deck and increases this way the chance to draw it again.
For useless cards that are unwanted you can play 2 - 3 times Secret Laboratory.

3.
The enemy doesn't know what cards you got from his deck.
This way you have a knowledge advantage and can predict cards from the enemy.
For example the enemy use countermagic and thinks he has 2 more in his deck but you stole already one.

4.
It stops you from going out of cards by yourself.
You will never run out of cards even if you draw cards like a mad man.
As long as your enemy doesn't mill your deck or gives you extra card draw there is no way.

I think this card is great option for control player.
And I even think it is one of the strongest escalation cards in the game.

DackFayden
12-02-2013, 06:59 PM
I have no idea why people think that Relentless Corruption is a weak card.
It has so many good points.

1.
It is a win option by itself.
You can mill the enemy deck with it or you steal the enemy win option.
And the only way to stop it is a counter or remove it from the deck/hand.

2.
After the second use it generate card advantage.
And you can not only use it 4 times like for example Oracle Song.
It goes back to your deck and increases this way the chance to draw it again.
For useless cards that are unwanted you can play 2 - 3 times Secret Laboratory.

3.
The enemy doesn't know what cards you got from his deck.
This way you have a knowledge advantage and can predict cards from the enemy.
For example the enemy use countermagic and thinks he has 2 more in his deck but you stole already one.

4.
It stops you from going out of cards by yourself.
You will never run out of cards even if you draw cards like a mad man.
As long as your enemy doesn't mill your deck or gives you extra card draw there is no way.

I think this card is great option for control player.
And I even think it is one of the strongest escalation cards in the game.

Talking directly to your points:

1. Unless mill is the win cond of your deck then that extra mill you get is not relevant. There's a reason why in magic pure mill cards are usually seen as weak. 0 affect on the board and not a fast enough win clock

2. After the second use you're right you get +1 card. In a mono blood(dat threshold) deck the only options for card advantage are Necessary sacrifice, pact of pain, and atrophy. Here's were I agree with you. I'd only play necessary sacrifice over relentless gauranteed. The other blood card adv options arent that good. But this comparison is like picking the shiniest turd in a pile... its still a turd

3. Very true the enemy doesn't know what card you got from his deck. The enemy also doesn't know the other cards in your hand. I would argue the enemy knows its a card from his deck, so he has an idea what it could be.

4/5. Totally agree with you. Escalation mechanic you'll never run out of cards. And its home is in a deck that stalls out forever. But again with the cards currently out not sure how possible this is. I will investigate.

And a side note. The first/second cast of relentless corruption are so abysmally weak for the 3 cost. If you ignore what properties the card you draw has:

The first cast = Bottled vitae you cant use till turn 3 with no +1 charge
Second cast = Oracle song

So avg(no ramp) scenario. turn 3(ramp) crappy bottled vitae --> t4 oracle song = You spent 2 turns making no board impact
Best case (control deck) scenario: Exhaust opp hand and then start going of on relentless corruption --> But why not just play another win cond?

My main problem with the card is how weak those first 2 cast are. If it cost 2 then'd we'd be talking(possib op possibly)

jgsugden
12-02-2013, 07:20 PM
I encourage those of you that are not impressed with this card to play a blood deck with 4 of this card in it. I'm having trouble coming up with a blood deck that is not significantly improved by the presence of this card.

Sereaphim
12-02-2013, 08:20 PM
1. Unless mill is the win cond of your deck then that extra mill you get is not relevant. There's a reason why in magic pure mill cards are usually seen as weak. 0 affect on the board and not a fast enough win clock


But this is not only a mill card. This card is a trade or advantage card.
It is not a chronic madness...
It can provide you with the win option from the enemy.




The first cast = Bottled vitae you cant use till turn 3 with no +1 charge
Second cast = Oracle song

So avg(no ramp) scenario. turn 3(ramp) crappy bottled vitae --> t4 oracle song = You spent 2 turns making no board impact
Best case (control deck) scenario: Exhaust opp hand and then start going of on relentless corruption --> But why not just play another win cond?

My main problem with the card is how weak those first 2 cast are. If it cost 2 then'd we'd be talking(possib op possibly)

You could say the same about if someone plays turn 3 and turn 4 a oracle song.
"You spent 2 turns making no board impact"

You play this card to the right time.
I play this card only turn 3 if i know the board is not dangerous and can clear it later with a extinction.
Or in control match ups where this card is so strong.
To steal a countermagic, oracle song, mastery of time, life siphon .... can mean a win.

It is all about board position as a control deck you rarely win in the early game.
You deck focus more on removal, staying alive and generating card/shards advantage.
Sure you can try to make some pressure with Xenoth's Inquisitor to force some plays out of the enemy but nearly everybody has removal against troops.

And Relentless Corruptio is a win condition that draws you cards and is hard to handle.
The only counter is countermagic or mill/discard.
For every other win option there are much more counter then this.
And not first 2 cast are weak only the first one.
The second is a oracle song, one of the strongest sapphire draw cards at the moment.

DackFayden
12-02-2013, 09:25 PM
So I tested the card in a monoBlood and Blood/x (first sapphire then ruby) decks.

In monoblood the lack of other efficient draw leads to you just 1 for 1ing your opp, which makes extinction not wort playing. Then in the long game it DOES in fact help, but it have never gotten to a third cast (Once again the lack of efficient draw in Blood). In fact Life siphon and topdeck wars ended up being the causes of victory.

In Blood/sapphire(not mill). its much easier to stall the game to increase relentless corruptions strength. With cheap and good draw like oracle and the 5charge champ late game with it is much stronger. It's more at home, as people have noted, in a slower deck. Although not gonna lie Storm Colussus won more games than using my opp deck against them. But hitting your opp with their own cards feels REALLY good

Blood/ruby: This didnt go so well. The double blood threshhold of relentless corruption was a real problem. Unlike sapphire where I could rely on 4 copies of oracles/bucanneer/timeripple to draw out the game and give card advantage with ruby once again 1/1 occurs alot. I tried 2 variants with and without cerebral fulmination. The problem I kept on running into is the awkward threshold cost of key ruby and blood cards.

All in all. I still think its a weak card. Of all the escalation cards I'd say its only above the white one cuz it doesnt set you back a card. I agree changing the escalate to 2 is too much, but I feel 2 w/ BB threshold is more reasonable, or should at least be tested out.

ossuary
12-03-2013, 06:13 AM
I don't think anybody is arguing that the escalation cards aren't all good EVENTUALLY. Of course they are, because they keep getting better every time you cast them. The problem is that RC is the only one of them that is 100% shit the first time you use it. It's way too expensive, with too high of a threshold, and 0 actual gain on first use.

All the other Escalation cards are overcosted for their first cast compared to the common alternatives as well, but at least you get SOMETHING for them. 1 creature, mill 4, 4 life, or 2 damage. RC just replaces itself, so you paid 3 mana to get a different card in your hand, that might not be any good to you. That first cast is the problem.

If the cost were 2, or stayed at 3 but only had 1 threshold so you could use it easier in a 2 shard deck, or if it started at draw 2 (and continued to escalate at only 1 card per cast), then it would be fine. But at 3 cost, 2 threshold, 1 card, it just doesn't measure up.

Sereaphim
12-03-2013, 09:16 AM
I don't think anybody is arguing that the escalation cards aren't all good EVENTUALLY. Of course they are, because they keep getting better every time you cast them. The problem is that RC is the only one of them that is 100% shit the first time you use it. It's way too expensive, with too high of a threshold, and 0 actual gain on first use.


What gain does Eternal Youth do the first time ?
4 health ....

It is a weaker version of Soothing Breeze.
It has no impact on the bord and it doesn't replace himself.
Why would you ever play this card ?
You could have played in the same turn a Spearcliff Cloud knight.

What gain does Chronic Madness do the first time ?
Mill 4 cards ...

It has no impact on the bord and it doesn't replace himself.
It only gets better in the late game but you need card draw to get any effect out of it.
The first cast is meaningless ....

This 2 escalate cards are more useless the first cast then RC.
1 card/1 mill/card knowledge > 4 health > 4 mill

Roknar
12-03-2013, 10:56 AM
Just thought I'd remind those people in the 0 gain first cast camp, that there is a pretty high chance of gaining a ressource,
and most cards you will draw will do SOMETHING for you, even if it's just a blocker.
Also your not replacing RC, your fueling it for later and getting some card in the process.

And Demented Demolisher goes a long way to help you draw this thing again, even thouh it's not a draw.
You could by all means run only eternal youth, a demented demolisher or two and pact of pain with RC. Just about impossible to get running in pvp, but once you do, your pretty much unstoppable save for mill. And we have to keep in mind that those kinda "wacky" decks might be an option in pve.

I agree that first cast isn't exactly stellar lol, but zero gain is a bit too harsh.

Something that we can't test yet but should consider too, is the equipment effects for pve.
If it does escalate every other escalate card in your deck, that's hardly no impact^^.

DackFayden
12-03-2013, 02:10 PM
My personal rankings of escalation cads:

Eternal youth < Relentless Corruption < crash of beast =< Chronic madness << Ragefire

Eternal youth has no board impact and lifegain no longer goes to astronomical values. Crash of beast is below chronic madness purely because of cost and the fact sapphire has better draw. And ragefire is actually a decent burn spell.

Also do you guys think the old art for RC was better?: http://hextcg.gamepedia.com/Relentless_Corruption

wasichu
12-03-2013, 02:10 PM
I like the idea of it doing something like the above "Aquire" make it a 5cc 3 blood threshold escalation card.
I like keep as is and make it start at 2 cards. or Lower the casting cost to 2. But it does need attention. I think the threshold on all the escalations should be lowered post nerf. This would not be overpowered like they were but still good cards. As of now they seem soso