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Baigan
11-24-2013, 10:29 AM
Previously: [1]. Add a construction counter to WBF for every Robot and Dwarf that enters play from your hand. [Tap]: Remove 4 counters from WBF to create a Worker Bot and put it in play.

Currently: [5]. [2, Tap]: Create a Worker Bot and put it in play.

Worker Bot: [1]. 1/1, Defensive.

Is Master Theorycrafter entering the Alpha soon? Paying seven resource for a single 1/1 Defensive (and two more for each beyond the first) is ridiculous, but it might be just a bit less if that guy was coming in. ;)

I understand that Dwarf decks are only going to get better as more cards are released that increase Artifact synergy. So, the value of the Worker Bot is more than just the stats - it's all the effects that it triggers. However, that doesn't warrant ignoring the fact that WBF is producing troops that are, individually, next to valueless. WBF seems, to me, to be exactly the sort of card that should be played early game to get that synergy rolling and does not warrant the excessive cost bump. [3] with [1, Tap] seems far more reasonable to me, but that's just opinion.

Lawlschool
11-24-2013, 10:46 AM
Don't forget that there are cards that reduce the cost of Artifacts. And that in its original form, one Workerbot could have cost well over 7 resources to play (1 for the factory, and then the cost of 4 cards, which has to be repeated every time). This change is significantly simpler, as well as a lot more reliable. The factory doesn't combo with itself as well as it used to that's for sure, but I think overall this change is an improvement. Old WBF was useless if you didn't have cards to play, this WBF ensures that you have bodies on the board as long as you have some spare resources. It also almost guarantees one WB/turn with just one WBF, whereas with old WBF you could only get 1 WB/turn if you had multiples and/or played multiple cards in a turn. Sure the initial WB "costs" a lot, but you're not dropping 7 for a WB, you're spending 5 for a renewable source of fodder to fuel a lot of dwarf-deck combos.

Vorpal
11-25-2013, 10:08 PM
I must admit I really liked the way it was 1 cost before : it felt very appropriate to start building your empire with a lowly worker bot production subroutine that would lead to bigger and better things.

Now, you ramp up to a factory that produces... 1/1 defensive creatures. A bit less inspiring.

ossuary
11-26-2013, 05:03 AM
Now, you ramp up to a factory that produces... 1/1 defensive creatures. A bit less inspiring.

Agreed. It doesn't have the same feel. But you have to admit, they could pump out a ridonculous number of bots if you got 2 or 3 of them in play early. It was a little insane. Especially if you dropped a few War Machinists in there as well. :)

escapeRoute
11-26-2013, 05:07 AM
Previously: [1]. Add a construction counter to WBF for every Robot and Dwarf that enters play from your hand. [Tap]: Remove 4 counters from WBF to create a Worker Bot and put it in play.

Currently: [5]. [2, Tap]: Create a Worker Bot and put it in play.

Worker Bot: [1]. 1/1, Defensive.

Is Master Theorycrafter entering the Alpha soon? Paying seven resource for a single 1/1 Defensive (and two more for each beyond the first) is ridiculous, but it might be just a bit less if that guy was coming in. ;)

I understand that Dwarf decks are only going to get better as more cards are released that increase Artifact synergy. So, the value of the Worker Bot is more than just the stats - it's all the effects that it triggers. However, that doesn't warrant ignoring the fact that WBF is producing troops that are, individually, next to valueless. WBF seems, to me, to be exactly the sort of card that should be played early game to get that synergy rolling and does not warrant the excessive cost bump. [3] with [1, Tap] seems far more reasonable to me, but that's just opinion.

they will need to invent something really awesome cause at that point in the game (the point where u are able to play and use that card, 6th turn at best) u need to play something considerably better of an artifact that puts a 1/1 defensive onto the board.. considering it also cost u a whole turn of inactivity

i mean, if it was "2: put into play a 1/1 bot" or "2: put a 1/1 defensive bot" it COULD have been SOMEWHAT usable in a crazy but fun deck... with that tap? god no

ossuary
11-26-2013, 05:22 AM
Don't forget reduction abilities. There are several ways to get the costs of artifacts down, and you can use those reduced costs to get hex engines out earlier, which provide even more resources... you could pretty easily have a bot factory in play and used once by turn 4, and keep pumping them out from there.

It's still not the same lore feeling that it used to have, as Vorpal so keenly described... but it's still a perfectly functional card. It will just have to be used a bit differently now. Possibly they went a LITTLE too far in rebalancing it, and it will get rejiggered again in a few weeks once people play with the new version and provide new data.

If you feel a change is no good, be sure to play around with it in a few different ways to try to gather data on how it functions, so CZE's game data will show that and so we can all have good discussion on the changes. Alpha is the perfect time to works on these sorts of modifications.

Hieronymous
11-26-2013, 10:01 AM
I'm not a huge fan of the change.

The card wasn't *that* great before because it took too long to really get going, but it was a nice supplement with an extra robot every few turns, depending. It wasn't a great card but it had potential, especially when combined with Slaughtergear, etc.


Compare with, say, Wretched Brood. Brood generates a 0/1 rabbit per turn and dings you for one health per turn in upkeep, but it only costs 3 to cast. At three-cost, it's really useful, especially if you use other cards like Adamanthian Scrivener to balance out the health cost. There are some notable differences of course -- battle hoppers are 0/1, worker bots are 1/1 defensive, so there are different resulting interactions with cards like command tower or volcannon for different types of win conditions.

The issue though is that 5 cost is very high, and at 5 cost, it doesn't really have a role any more -- Slaughtergear only costs six! By the time you're bringing out the current incarnation of the Worker Bot Factory, you're approaching late-game, and I feel like there's usually something better and more worth playing at that point. Even if you're using cards like Journeyman Technician or Hex Engine, that still applies to any other artifacts you'd be casting instead; compare with, say, Aggressive War Hulk.

In either incarnation, this card is an investment card - less power initially but lots of power over time as it generates more robots. The new high mana cost means you don't get to make that investment till fairly later-game, and then the pay off is pushed correspondingly further away. If we consider a Worker Bot roughly equivalent to the 1-cost Charge Bot (which it isn't; charge bots are better), that would mean it takes five turns for the Worker Bot Factory to pay off -- by which time you're at least ten turns into the game and the course of the game has likely already set, or even concluded.

The old version, you probably got a payoff before the end of the game. New version, you probably don't get your payoff.

edit: writing this I'd actually forgotten that it has a resource cost per bot now also. Really at five cost it shouldn't tap -- it should just be "Pay 2: generate worker bot", especially since the bots are defensive. Then (for example) if you had a worker bot factory AND slaughtergear in play, you could pay five resources to generate one war hulk, which actually seems a reasonable combo.

ossuary
11-26-2013, 10:24 AM
I suppose it does seem a little high cost now... but having you be able to use it multiple times per turn for only 2 mana would also be way too powerful. There's just too much you can do with both triggers and other effects if you can pump out 3+ new robot troops every single turn.

Hieronymous
11-26-2013, 11:18 AM
Yeah, fair enough. There are a couple different directions this could go -- at four cost as a 'tap: create worker bot" maybe, or at say 6-8 cost and "pay (1)(2)(3): create worker bot", whatever. Problem is now it's too high cost to be useful for anything. It needs to either come into play a lot sooner and have a weaker effect or come into play even later and be a win condition.

Indormi
11-28-2013, 01:58 PM
I really despise the change, it killed my artifact deck. Well we cant even call them artifact decks anymore but Dwarf/robots as pretty much all triggers are being changed to only affect Dwarfs and robots. Old factory was great because it had great synergy and gave artifacts deck a strong start, which they needed as they really really weak against AoE stuff. Atm dwarf decks are too slow to be playable. To be fair there were some insane dwarf spoiled, but seing the changes I dont think they will come out at they were, and I also agree that if it wasnt limited to robots/dwarfs it would be borderline OP or just OP. I also think that turreted wall should be a robot wall... but that is a different issue.

nicosharp
12-23-2013, 02:44 PM
I haven't played my artifact deck in a while, and never read these changes in the patch notes. I think this change was pretty horrible, and may be another attempt at dumbing down priority window interactions in a game by changing the way the card functions.

The card made perfect sense as an early game card that you could use to ramp into a robot army. It has huge weaknesses as a 1 cost artifact, but could pay off in certain scenarios. This change is really disappointing. Now it costs 7 resources to get 1 worker bot, which is typically a trash blocker, and at best a artifact pump for certain cards and volcannon. I can't believe it got set to a 5 cost drop.

ossuary
12-23-2013, 03:41 PM
Yeah, I hear you. It doesn't seem to do what the description would lead you to believe (humble beginnings that can grow into an impressive army).

There are lots of cards, especially artifact-centric ones, that play havoc on the stack. Try sitting through someone spending 10+ resources on experimental war hulk sometime. Talk about an ability begging to be changed to X instead of 1! :)

I could believe some of the changes that were made were done more for game flow than for card balance / viability / flavor. It seems like a reasonable (though disappointing) scenario.

nicosharp
12-23-2013, 04:30 PM
I could believe some of the changes that were made were done more for game flow than for card balance / viability / flavor. It seems like a reasonable (though disappointing) scenario.
I feel like compromises are being made to make this game platform and tablet accessible. The response time between 1 player and another is the major limitation for this game, as a "turn" is not isolated to allow one player undisputed actions. I see many games on the market being designed with complete isolation of turns to simplify packet exchange.

However, it is not to say there are no tablet games that have real-time strategy elements that function in game, that throw the packet exchange complications excuse out the window. Look at: "Champs", or "Soltice Arena" on the iOS.

Anyways, really wish this change and others were explained, but I guess we just sit back and watch the already developed set 1 be changed repeatedly to fit the needs of the games design limitations, along with nerfs to released cards that I thought were previously being touted as not changing once released? I know that alpha and a set being finished does not signify that the cards have been "released", but I hope the cards keep their same general functionality after set design, and that these changes are better communicated and explained.

jackchenlong
01-03-2014, 02:05 AM
Mod please delete thread.

RoaRawR
01-23-2014, 04:48 AM
I suppose it does seem a little high cost now... but having you be able to use it multiple times per turn for only 2 mana would also be way too powerful. There's just too much you can do with both triggers and other effects if you can pump out 3+ new robot troops every single turn.

Could have added "Additonal 1 for each workerbot in play" to prevent army of mass bots?