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View Full Version : so, lets talk bout spellshield



escapeRoute
11-26-2013, 03:18 AM
Now, im perfectly fine with it existing, in fact it is a cool mechanic BUT the way it works right now it just favours aggro decks too much and doesnt allow the caster to make mistakes..

i really liked the way it worked in magic years ago, i think they called it shroud at one point... basically, for those not familiar with magic, the creatures with shroud werent targettable AT ALL... meaning the others couldnt kill em with targetted spells and meaning neither u were able to buff em unless u had something who affected the whole board, like air superiority...

spellshield should have its drawbacks, u want to have it? fine, but u should then not be able to buff it with ur champion abilities or with cards like ruby aura, cause well, the creature have a magic shield that stops EVERY magic, both urs and the enemies ones.. the way it is right now its just too faceroll-like and it makes it slightly overpowered i think

right now its just a faceroll ability.. like the fairy... u just play it and buff it like a crazy madman with the root dancer... in that case u would have to play it smart, u should play it BEFORE it gets spellshield, buff it with the rootdancer and THEN play the 3rd green shard giving it spellshield.. adding a whole new layer of strategy and pro tricks

that, at least, its what I think, what bout u guys?

Ritter
11-26-2013, 04:35 AM
Well just last night this very thing happened in a game I was playing. Dude played the 1/2 spellshield fairy, turn 3 Wild Root Dancer, and then got Heatwaved and lost both. Extinction will also ruin their whole plan in the event Heatwave is not an option. I do think Wild Root Dancer is more of a turn 4 play and many people run it out way too quick. Had my opponent waited till turn 4 and then played WRD + source, his fairy would have been out of Heatwave range.

Spellshield is certainly a powerful ability to have, but it is certainly not unbalanced. In MTG, there have been basically no constructed creatures with shroud in a while now... while hexproof (spellshield) has been a very viable strategy for the last two standard rotations.

escapeRoute
11-26-2013, 04:42 AM
Spellshield is certainly a powerful ability to have, but it is certainly not unbalanced. In MTG, there have been basically no constructed creatures with shroud in a while now... while hexproof (spellshield) has been a very viable strategy for the last two standard rotations.

there is a reason for that... it makes the board less interactive, but that is onesided only for no real mana cost... and btw, why would u want to use shroud if u can have hexproof... the problem is, the second choice shouldnt exist at all or should cost considerably more than the first one

lets talk bout the 6/6 blue bird... with shroud it would be fine, but with spellshield it should really cost one or 2 more mana, ofc when u cast a 6/6 with flight u really dont care bout the difference between shroud or hexproof and, frankly, probably ur opponent doesnt care either (cause it probably doesnt even need a buff to win u the game at that point), but still its a wrong cost for the mechanic of the ability...
the 4/5 white. on the other hand, it looks pretty fine, it should probably be a 4/4, but its not unfair, cause it doesnt add anything else to the board situation (like lifedrain or speed or flight, so 4/5 works too)

what i mean is, u can live with spellshield as it is, but i dont like it... its from the new facerollfriendly magic mechanics and hex shouldnt really take the new magic as an inspiration

poizonous
11-26-2013, 05:22 AM
I happen to love the spellshield mechanic as I am very much a fan of Hexproof. Although I do think it is a mechanic that can be VERY powerful with only set 1 existing.

BlackRoger
11-26-2013, 05:33 AM
every mechanic is fine as long as there are proper answers to it.
The problem is, hex does not have those mechanics.
In mtg you can force your opponent to sack it, destroy its enchantments, bring in more deathtouchers, or wipe the board.
hex has only the board wipers, (to my memory), which clearly is not enough to deal with them.

SomeoneRandom
11-26-2013, 05:46 AM
Currently there are only board wipes and combat. However, there are so few spellsheild troops and they are all appropriately costed. The Wild fairy takes 3 Wild to get online meaning often times you will have a turn to kill it before it gains spellsheild and even if you don't they played a 1/2 for 2 which is heavily overcosted. Not to mention with a triple wild threshold it is almost impossible that they are playing another shard. With the Sapphire troop he is a 7 drop that doesn't have an immediate effect on the board, that is pretty damn miserable. Control decks don't want to survive until turn 7 then waste all their resources on a troop that then just sits there and has to swing 3 times to win the game. For 7 resources you want to have a troop that has immediate presence and will easily win you the game outright which he doesn't really do. After that the only other troops are socketed troops which are all overcosted anyways. I know you lost a few games to the wild deck, but you really need to look at the broader picture =]

HyenaNipples
11-26-2013, 05:50 AM
The problem here isn't spellsheild, it's Wild Root Dancer. On turn 4 you can't kill it before it buffs something, which is pretty OP. Its ability needs a priority window badly.

SomeoneRandom
11-26-2013, 06:02 AM
The problem here isn't spellsheild, it's Wild Root Dancer. On turn 4 you can't kill it before it buffs something, which is pretty OP. Its ability needs a priority window badly.

Yeah, WRD is very strong and that was one of the bigger reasons I was speaking out against the change for triggered abilities. Still I don't think that combo is all that degenerate. However, it seems people new to TCGs have a lot of issues with power levels in this game.

escapeRoute
11-26-2013, 06:20 AM
Currently there are only board wipes and combat. However, there are so few spellsheild troops and they are all appropriately costed. The Wild fairy takes 3 Wild to get online meaning often times you will have a turn to kill it before it gains spellsheild and even if you don't they played a 1/2 for 2 which is heavily overcosted. Not to mention with a triple wild threshold it is almost impossible that they are playing another shard. With the Sapphire troop he is a 7 drop that doesn't have an immediate effect on the board, that is pretty damn miserable. Control decks don't want to survive until turn 7 then waste all their resources on a troop that then just sits there and has to swing 3 times to win the game. For 7 resources you want to have a troop that has immediate presence and will easily win you the game outright which he doesn't really do. After that the only other troops are socketed troops which are all overcosted anyways. I know you lost a few games to the wild deck, but you really need to look at the broader picture =]

i actually lost only one match to it right now, thats not the problem.... as i said i dont really like the mechanic cause it really doesnt ask anything for the opponent (in addition to being quite strong)... and no, the 3 threshold is not that much... 2 mana for a 1/2 is fair price.. i would not say its good ofc, cause it isnt, but its not overcosted since it has an ability that its not a drawback (doesnt matter if that ability is strong or it isnt)

im not saying spellshield is op (even if it is stronger than it should be in this meta, remember that costs of abilities should be balanced in the meta in wich they are in, not outside of it), im saying its a wrong mechanic considering there is the shroud opportunity wich is both more intresting and fair or, at least, for me its more intresting cause it forces me to think even when i play it or it forces me to think IF i want it or not in my deck...

am i a lonely black sheep? thats what i wanted to discus...

it actually came into my mind that here u dont have enchantments... so a thing that magic does and that here u cant do is that u cant destroy a spellshield buffs (or the auras that affect the creature with spellshield) since here u need to revert it... wich u cant... in magic u would just destroy the aura... another reason why i dont like the way they built this ability... just not interactive, at all

Unhurtable
11-26-2013, 07:21 AM
Yes, Spellshield should have drawbacks just like Speed, Crush, Flight, Swiftstrike etc

On a more serious and not sarcastic note: No, Spellshield is fine. Just take a step back and look at your situation again. Which card would you consider to be more powerful outside of this combination? Fairy or Root Dancer?

Also, you could argue that nerfing Spellshield would remove strategy from the game as it would reduce its power and remove a potential thorn in the side of other constructing decks.

escapeRoute
11-26-2013, 07:26 AM
maybe im too used to shroud and so i see it as an ability that should work that way and that way only then and seying a one sided version of it doesnt really fit in my brain, but i really cant get to like that...

Eierdotter
11-26-2013, 08:41 AM
srsly this thread is whining about a counter to Blood/Ruby control decks?
(btw you srsly would prefer to Murder the 1/2 fairy instead of the Root Dancer in any scenario?)

Cloud Titan to strong? I do not play him, because i think he is too expensive for what he does...

Since Spellshield is only available to Wild and Sapphire (who lack in targeted removal) i think it is very fair they have this as an answers to targeted removal.

If you run 4 Murder in your Shin'Hare deck and get put on a 20 turn clock from the little spellshield fairy, i doupt the spellshield is the problem.

escapeRoute
11-26-2013, 09:31 AM
srsly this thread is whining about a counter to Blood/Ruby control decks?
(btw you srsly would prefer to Murder the 1/2 fairy instead of the Root Dancer in any scenario?)

Cloud Titan to strong? I do not play him, because i think he is too expensive for what he does...

Since Spellshield is only available to Wild and Sapphire (who lack in targeted removal) i think it is very fair they have this as an answers to targeted removal.

If you run 4 Murder in your Shin'Hare deck and get put on a 20 turn clock from the little spellshield fairy, i doupt the spellshield is the problem.

if u read it well i said since the very first post that i can live with the spellshield as it is right now, i just dont like it and feel its slightly underpriced... and did i say anywhere that i think that the fairy is stronger than the root dancer?, if so, show it to me...

i made some examples on why what and how and also said that things can stay how they are but that i liked how shread worked much more than this onesided shield does... have u seen me yelling around "oh fuck crypto nerf uber super op fairy card"?

in fact i asked opinions and answered with my opinions cause i liked more the old magic version of it... i said it is SLIGHTLY overpowered for its cost, not that it is broken or it really need a nerf.. it can stay as it is... i asked WHAT OTHERS THINKS ABOUT IT after earing my ideas..

SomeoneRandom
11-26-2013, 09:59 AM
in fact i asked opinions and answered with my opinions cause i liked more the old magic version of it... i said it is SLIGHTLY overpowered for its cost, not that it is broken or it really nerf.. it can stay as it is... i asked WHAT OTHERS THINKS ABOUT IT after earing my ideas.. christ

I think we all read your ideas and then gave you feedback, but you aren't looking for feedback you are looking for verification of your feelings. Shroud hasn't been a keyword in magic for many years now, in general it limited play opportunities for a lot of cards and Hexproof(Spellsheild) is a hell of a lot more interesting BECAUSE of the mechanics you can do with it.

If we want to keep going back to magic examples there is a card that is almost exact duplicate in Ledgewalker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=271230&type=card) with minor tweaks in conditional abilities etc. In general Hex power level is higher than Magic power level and spellsheild really undercosted in comparison to other keyword abilities.

escapeRoute
11-26-2013, 10:06 AM
that is why after a page i said that maybe its just me being used to shroud and then not liking spellshield :/

cause after so many feedbacks it was obvious that my feelings may have been only mine, thus wrong on a bigger perspective or at least too personal.

when i talk i may show too much passion and it may look like i want to make other people change their opinions cause, well, maybe im just a little too strong on my ideas (i dont really know how to express this in english) but that deosnt mean im not listening, i actually wanted other people to show me why the things i said wherent true for them too... but i understant that that is a little difficult to understand on a forum

Ritter
11-26-2013, 10:17 AM
The card pool is currently way too limited to determine the real power level of spellshield. As of now, your options are mass removal or try and race them. There will be more ways to deal with spellshield troops later as more cards are added to the alpha and more sets are released. At least one shard will get removal for it like an edict effect in MTG. Without such an effect like that now, spellshield can feel a bit overwhelming.

malloc31
11-26-2013, 10:42 AM
I like spell shield and think they shouldn't change it. But I do think they need to take into consideration of the fact that in this game (as opposed to MtG) all buffs (creature enchantments) can not be disenchanted (they are all permanent changes to the cards). And cards that revert other cards can not be cast on spell shielded creatures. So it is more powerful then in MtG.

Ritter
11-26-2013, 02:19 PM
And cards that revert other cards can not be cast on spell shielded creatures. So it is more powerful then in MtG.

This is really going to be the problem with Spellshield moving forward. To deal with the buffs placed on an untargetable troop, it is logical to go after the buff itself. In Hex, that's impossible since buffs are permanent effects. What I could see them doing is making a card that is something like 2 cost in Diamond, target player chooses 1 troop they control, revert that troop. This way you don't have to target the troop, you target the player. Similarly, Blood could get something like 2 cost, target player sacrifices a troop they control. Yes, this is basically a reprint of Diabolic Edict from MTG, but why fix it if it ain't broke.

escapeRoute
11-26-2013, 02:25 PM
This is really going to be the problem with Spellshield moving forward. To deal with the buffs placed on an untargetable troop, it is logical to go after the buff itself. In Hex, that's impossible since buffs are permanent effects. What I could see them doing is making a card that is something like 2 cost in Diamond, target player chooses 1 troop they control, revert that troop. This way you don't have to target the troop, you target the player. Similarly, Blood could get something like 2 cost, target player sacrifices a troop they control. Yes, this is basically a reprint of Diabolic Edict from MTG, but why fix it if it ain't broke.

they could just make a new keyword called like... shieldbreaker or, who knows magic penetration "the cards with magic penetration ignore spellshield"

or they could create a card called magical overcharge or spellbreaker that targets the creatures with spellshield and that erases the keyword spellshield from them and revert them

it would be kinda a sideboard card AT BEST, but there is definitely the possibility there

and the edict could be something like Tough choices or no one left behind where the player have to choose "sacrifice a creature or take 6 damages (does not work if he doesnt have a creature)"... or just the classical one and this could be a weaker version or could not exist at all, depending on the price of the true one

poizonous
11-26-2013, 03:56 PM
EscapeRoute, I dont like the whole Magic Penetration effect as it feels like that would render most other spells obsolete. However the card creation idea you have is a good one. Something like 4 cost 0 threshold Constant - Fairy Dust - 2 Basic Action - For the remainder of your turn spellshield troops lose spellshield. This effect may be used by both players on their turn.

escapeRoute
11-26-2013, 04:30 PM
EscapeRoute, I dont like the whole Magic Penetration effect as it feels like that would render most other spells obsolete. However the card creation idea you have is a good one. Something like 4 cost 0 threshold Constant - Fairy Dust - 2 Basic Action - For the remainder of your turn spellshield troops lose spellshield. This effect may be used by both players on their turn.

i dont think it could make other spells obsolete.. like a murder that costs 4 or 4 with 3 threshold... that would hardly be make the common murder op.. it shouldnt cost the same as the non magic penetration version for sure, at least one more :/

and it shouldnt be too common.. i think it would have to be like escalation, just one spell for each color

like a repel for blue, a murder for the blood, a revert for the green, a "kill the attacker" for the white and... who know a shot for the red

actually, better persecute than murder... more balanced

Eierdotter
11-27-2013, 03:43 AM
right now its just a faceroll ability.. like the fairy... u just play it and buff it like a crazy madman with the root dancer...


thats the part where i thought you think the fairy is op and i referred to it.

i think it is a cool keyword and i like it the way it is.
the troop is still blockable, and therefor only hard to kill for "no troop owning control"-decks

Indormi
11-28-2013, 01:02 PM
The problem with spellshield is that when the creature is big enough, extintion is the only answer to deal with it, (you only other chance is racing them). Fairy and the forgoten lord 5 cost 3/4 that additionaly has steadfast are fine. What is really powerfull atm is the Wild spellshield gem (being minor) and the Collossus. We already saw the nerf to scout due to this combination. The Colosus is a pain to deal with but is already highly costed and tripled threshold is still strong but not broken. As others have already stated the problem atm is that we dont have the full set and while this spellshield cards are scarce they are really powerfull/usefull.

In addition to this spellshielded troops are the best stuff you can put in your deck vs control, which bring us to the other point extintion and the lack of answers to this cards from troops deck. Now that we have more cards is getting much better, as Countermagic and CoO can deal with it. Furthermore extintion wont be as good vs inspire decks when they get their Blessing of the fallen working. So we will probably see/are starting to see a little shift on the meta.

What I'm trying to say is that Spellshield is strong, crazy strong with the right combination but we are probably are going to see more ways to deal with it, like forcing to sacrifice and stuff like that, what I dont see anyone comenting is about the most powerfull spellshield card thre is IMO, Soul Marble: Armaments.

The card is expensive no doubt but I think is just waay to good, if spellshield weakness is AoE removal, and combat damage. Well this card solves both. Giving +2/+2 to each of your troops gets them out of heatwave right away, and also makes them much more tough to deal with them in combat. In addition, even if you extint the next creature they play is going to also get the buff. I agree that is you can always target the marble but still you still need to deal with the marble and the troops. It may be a little too slow but atm I think is just insane. And if they going to change something about spellshiedl they should start with that card but that is just my opinion.

poizonous
11-28-2013, 01:11 PM
Soul Marble and all other constants will never be an issue in a 2/3 match with sideboards as there are plenty of useful cards to deal with constants.

escapeRoute
11-28-2013, 01:15 PM
Soul Marble and all other constants will never be an issue in a 2/3 match with sideboards as there are plenty of useful cards to deal with constants.

with 15 card u can totaly change the strategy of a deck... who knows if u will still run them at all

but yes, u will be able to answer to it in plenty of ways

Indormi
11-28-2013, 01:40 PM
Plenty of cards to deal with constants? I know about Nature Reings and Winds of Change in wild, Comet strike, Argus and Chaos Key. Time riples does not really deals with it, and being 1 costed is quite a lot harder to be Countermagiced or CoO. There should be more cards that remove constant incoming but atm I dont think they are that many. Of the above ones I only see Nature Reing and CK seing play in most decks.

escapeRoute
11-28-2013, 02:45 PM
Plenty of cards to deal with constants? I know about Nature Reings and Winds of Change in wild, Comet strike, Argus and Chaos Key. Time riples does not really deals with it, and being 1 costed is quite a lot harder to be Countermagiced or CoO. There should be more cards that remove constant incoming but atm I dont think they are that many. Of the above ones I only see Nature Reing and CK seing play in most decks.

ck can be more than enough i think... its also versatile (even if costly) so u could use it for other things if necessity arise

Indormi
11-28-2013, 04:29 PM
Chaos Key while good, has no instant speed which makes it vulnerable to nature reigns. Wild/diamond is probably the combination you want to run with Soul Marble and most people will probably have some on their sideboard, good news is that stoneskin cant protect Soul Marble. While NR is not usually run main deck, (I ran it main on my wild ramp deck, but didnt see many people running it) you still need 5 resources to cast it which may too much. (CK is perfecly balanced at is cost, as is universal removal).

poizonous
11-28-2013, 08:01 PM
There is also a blood card coming out that destroys all constants and you gain 2 life for each 1 if i remember correctly

Indormi
11-28-2013, 08:33 PM
I think that is Winds of change, from Wild at least it has that effect.

poizonous
11-28-2013, 10:47 PM
I think that is Winds of change, from Wild at least it has that effect.

Yup thats that 1, but there is a blood card not in alpha yet that destroys constants