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Indormi
11-27-2013, 07:47 AM
Curse of Oblivion is a strong card that promotes some unhealthy gameplay. When you cast CoO you see each of the non-resource cards in your oponents deck, and you are shown the multiple copies of each card. As most players are going to play with 4x or 3x of the cards if you take enough time you can predict what they are currently holding on hand. For example if you see 3 extintions only on the deck that means he probably has the 4th in hand, same with countermagic and most of the stuff.

This makes the card even stronger but that is not the issue, the issue is that it promotes spending time checking the amount of copies of each card you are playing to "know" what you are currently holding which makes the other player sit doing nothing while the one casting OoB "writes down" every card and the multiple copies on the deck. (3-5 minutes on the clock to know what your oponent is holding is a great tradeoff)

While not everyone will do this of course and will try to be as brief as possible only checking some notable cards, this may incurr into unhealthy gameplay. In addition to this there is a bug which makes your oponent timer run out while you are browsing his deck.

My proposal is that when you cast OoB it only shows a single copie of each non-resource card left in the deck. It is a nerf to OoB but I think it this change will negate that unhealthy game option. (you can always check the void pile after casting it to know how many you removed). If the nerf to OoB is too much I propose and alternate solution, when you are browsing through your oponents deck you see single copies of each card with a sign indicating the number of that specific card left in the deck, so that they can guess what you are holding much faster.

Does anyone else agree/dissagree with this change?

Xenavire
11-27-2013, 07:53 AM
Hell no. That is the cards saving grace, and it is meant to emulate a real life TCG (which all have plenty of effects like this.)

Removing that feature would be a massive nerf. It is intended to be used in such a way - on it's own it's a fairly bad card, but the information it gives you, thats worth a lot.

(When I say it is fairly bad, I mean to guarantee bomb removal it has to hit the hand as well, and at 3 cost you are giving up the chance to play something useful in the early game. Removing the ability to see the opponents deck would make it a very sub-standard card.)

FlyingMeatchip
11-27-2013, 07:55 AM
disagree with blood threshold high, murder on the rise, that card needs to do just what its doing. Don't change it.

Eierdotter
11-27-2013, 10:35 AM
i really like this card, a no brainer to play 4 of them in every deck that has access to blood in any circumstances.
hell i am considering to splash blood in every deck to play this card...

highly recommend one of Indormi's suggested changes.(nerf or timesaver)
Magic player my be familiar with Pithing Neelde (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253581) beeing basically the same and very strong.

Hieronymous
11-27-2013, 10:52 AM
Considering how many decks are built around single-card strategies this card seems crazy powerful -- the ultimate counter to combo decks of any kind and a pretty good mill card to boot.

Erep
11-27-2013, 01:11 PM
Magic player my be familiar with Pithing Neelde (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253581) beeing basically the same and very strong.

That is not really a good comparison at all, I don't think.

It has a similar technical effect to Curse of Oblivion, except Curse has a number of intangible benefits, that are what Indormi is stating are the problem with the card. Needle you have to cast without knowing what cards are in your opponents deck, which means the information has to come from somewhere else. Curse has that built in. It also shows you their hand, almost. It is a very different card in terms of the important parts of the effect, that make it very unusual. If you have ever tried to play a card game with your hand shown, it is one of the most ridiculous things imaginable. It is just frustrating... I actually have some friends who used to play card tourneys, but there was someone who could see cards in other peoples pupils, making it impossible to do anything.

Also, Needle can be removed, to get rid of the effect, Curse is permanent, without Void return effects.

I do think Curse is a bit messed up the way it is now. By the same token, I think the card will quickly become unplayable if you do to much to it. I wouldn't mind your change too much. I think it would reduce it to a side in card, and a mill deck card, which is what it should be.

mach
11-27-2013, 01:30 PM
How about changing it to also reveal your opponent's hand?

Eierdotter
11-27-2013, 03:11 PM
That is not really a good comparison at all, I don't think.

It has a similar technical effect to Curse of Oblivion, except Curse has a number of intangible benefits, that are what Indormi is stating are the problem with the card. Needle you have to cast without knowing what cards are in your opponents deck, which means the information has to come from somewhere else. Curse has that built in. It also shows you their hand, almost. It is a very different card in terms of the important parts of the effect, that make it very unusual. If you have ever tried to play a card game with your hand shown, it is one of the most ridiculous things imaginable. It is just frustrating... I actually have some friends who used to play card tourneys, but there was someone who could see cards in other peoples pupils, making it impossible to do anything.

Also, Needle can be removed, to get rid of the effect, Curse is permanent, without Void return effects.

I do think Curse is a bit messed up the way it is now. By the same token, I think the card will quickly become unplayable if you do to much to it. I wouldn't mind your change too much. I think it would reduce it to a side in card, and a mill deck card, which is what it should be.

nice you mention how much better CoO is^^ since the needle was sort of a 4 of in every deck

DeusPhasmatis
11-27-2013, 03:32 PM
Magic player my be familiar with Pithing Neelde (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=253581) beeing basically the same and very strong.

They are different cards. Pithing Needle can affect cards in the battlefield (or preempt cards in hand), whereas Omen of Oblivion can only affect the deck (i.e. no card advantage, no board advantage). Pithing Needle only costs 1, and has no color restrictions. Presumably the metagame was full of powerful activated abilities at the time it was available.

Omen of Oblivion can be very powerful, but it can also be very weak. It really depends on the type of deck you're using it against, and what your opponent has in-hand when you cast it. That it doesn't affect the board or either players' hand makes it a bit of a gamble.

Ritter
11-27-2013, 03:41 PM
Right now, the card is either way too good, or not good at all. With no sideboarding, a combo deck may just have no chance to win against someone who resolves 1-2 Omens. Similarly, someone who is playing a very homogenous aggro deck may feel completely indifferent to having 4 cards removed from their deck.

The combo player gets blown out from a main deck card, while the aggro player pushes their advantage by having the Omen player waste a turn removing 4 cards from their deck that they may never have seen anyway.

This is a card that really belongs in most sideboards, so you can bring it in when the match necessitates it, and keep it out of the main deck when you are playing against something with a lot of similar cards that are just trying to play troops or burn your face or whatever their game plan is that does not revolve around a single card (Chronic Madness I'm looking at you).

If you were going to compare this to any card in MTG, it would hands down be Slaughter Games. That is a card that has seen a ton of play in standard constructed, and it is pretty good at what it does. The bigger advantage to cards like Slaughter Games, Surgical Extraction, Extirpate etc., is that they take cards out of your opponents hand as well. Omen of Oblivion will never take a card out of your opponent's hand, so it will always be card disadvantage.

Erep
11-27-2013, 06:35 PM
So, I was thinking about it, and I realized there are a few more problems with how it works right now.
(I have only played it once, so my understanding of how it activates might be a bit off.)

Because this card targets a card in the deck, it allows for the deck to be looked at before the card resolves. This means, even if it is counterspelled, the opponent still gets to go through the process of figuring out what is in your hand regardless of whether the card resolves. Additionally, curse of oblivion does not even have to actually be activated. You can just scan the deck, and then cancel the card with ESC, then go on with your play. This isn't so bad for alpha, as who cares if people try an abuse it in casual test matches, but this will be a problem in tournaments if it isn't corrected before release. Players will do counterspell and stoneskin checks before every time they activate life siphon, while still keeping the 3 mana to fuel the siphon.

The card has to target the player, and then, on resolution the card can be selected from the deck (whether through the current method, or one like indormi suggested. I think this problem is extreme enough that it needs to be taken into account, even with the indormi solution, because looking through the exact cards/secondary color of the deck on turn three for free, even if you can't see exact cards is stupid). (I am not a fan of all the comparing it to other games, but in all games I have played, spells like this target the player, then selection occurs on resolution. Think about any tutor you have ever used. The selection can adapt to responses your opponent plays, which is due to the same mechanic.)

Terras
11-27-2013, 06:56 PM
This card seems nice and fair... if you double it's cost.
Searching your opponents deck for it's strategy and removing any chance of using a key card, is kinda a big deal.

Having to target a card on the field would be more balanced as well.

Indormi
11-28-2013, 02:04 AM
I was going to post the bug about not seing the CoO being casted until it resolves making counterspell useless, as it is still pay 3 reveal your oponent hand and they discard counterspell atm.

Kroan
11-28-2013, 02:28 AM
I would like that you have to name a card instead of seeing your opponent deck. The card should void all cards with the same name as the named card in all zone's except battlefield. Basically I want Slaughter Games from magic :P

Xenavire
11-28-2013, 07:03 AM
Hell, if you really want to change the mechanics of it so people can't see the deck, make it like the old persecute but more expensive, and just void the target and all other copies. Resource cost would have to be 5, threshold should be high, but it would be a much better maindeck card without seeing the deck.

But frankly I don't care if it changes or not. An opponent would have to draw it and play it before I draw one of my bombs - who says I cant hold onto a bomb until late-game? Not to mention I have run several decks where people have assumed one card is a bomb when it wasn't, and they just thinned my deck for me. Ironic really.

Indormi
11-28-2013, 07:43 AM
to Xenavire, bugs aside I'm fine with OoB doing what it does for the cost if they do a little interface change(just showing the deck in order so we dont stay stuck there for ages), as I'm really not that patient and waiting 5 min for my oponent to check every card going back and forth through my deck counting stuff will just make me despair.

In addition to that, making bad plays with that card does not mean that is not strong. For example you remove extintion from his deck(let's say the blood/sapphire control one), and then follow up with spellshielded troops, in addition to knowing if he has 1 on hand or not you just make your stuff uncounterable or almost uncounterable.

escapeRoute
11-28-2013, 07:59 AM
so i waws not the only one that thought that for 3 cost it was insanely powerful?
i mean, not broken... but... well... very close to it

this card was used in every deck it had black... even aggro ones when it came out http://magiccards.info/scans/en/chk/105.jpg

i know this is not magic.. but there was a reason why those kind of cards asked u to guess what the opponent had BEFORE playing it... it still allowed u to check the deck of ur opponent and guess his hand BUT, with the first cast, u had to make a guess on what was his strategy and how to counter it... more often than not u where right.. but if u casted it on turn 4 u still risked to name a card he didnt have

and it costed one more, wich made it a 4th turn cast and not a 3rd one

the mechanic is not op, but it should make u guess BEFORE being able to cast or, if they leave it like this.. yes, they should probably rise the cost by 2.... it could be something like "spelle the 4 initial letters of a card then look at opponent deck for a nonshard card that begine with those 4 letters and void it with and all the other copies in that deck" to make things easier... but still u have to guess it the first time.. after that, well, u may hate it, but it becomes pretty much balanced and u have ways to play around it

i mean, the card that i showed u took the cards from ur had too and allowrd ur opponents not only to guess it but tu actually see it and NOBODY ever cried bout it (it didnt get banned)... things is.. first, counterspells where more common, second, it was a 4th turn cast and 3rd u had tu guess it the first time

but then it may become useless since, well, u dont affect the board istantly and against aggro decks it is almos useless

Indormi
11-28-2013, 12:32 PM
I remember that card seing it as N2 of the most searched cards back then we I bought Urza/Serra magazine(I guess it was not only published on my country).

Still it my thread was more oriented about the bug the card currently has and some issues that may areise if the way it worked was not changed. I see no reason why this thread was moved to this subforum, but well it seems not many of you agree with me so my opinion may be flawed.

Rezna
11-29-2013, 11:09 AM
I think the biggest problem is that it doesn't shuffle the deck after you look at your opponents deck, you can plan out every single move....

Like with bomb's, mill, murder, bounce. You can see ahead what to do with every single turn except the few cards they chance to hold in their hand.

ossuary
11-29-2013, 11:44 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's a bug. We haven't gotten a response on it yet, but it's been posted in the bug forums. Certainly, the ability to see the entire deck in order is WAY too strong for a 3 cost card. ;)

Also, I don't believe it's supposed to let you look at the deck until you actually successfully cast it (right now, you look at the deck and choose the card you want to void before they get a chance to respond and countermagic it). That seems like a bug as well. The way it should work is: 1) cast it, 2) opponent chooses whether or not to respond to you casting it, 3) if it resolves, THEN it triggers to let you search the deck and void the card, 4) the void happens, and the deck is reshuffled.

jgsugden
11-29-2013, 04:47 PM
Let's not be too crazy, here.

When I cast this spell on turn 3, I get to look through my opponent's deck and remove all copies of any particular card still in there. However, beyond the knowledge of what is still in my opponent's deck and the hints it might give me about twhat they may have in hand, this does nothing directly for me immediately. The benefit is not felt until later on when the draws are a little less special. Like some of the other deck manipulation cards, I'm expending resources for long term benefits, but getting minimal short term benefits.

This means that fast decks may clobber me with what they have in hand before I really capitalize on these long term benefits.

There is also the problem of a late game draw. These cards really only work well if your game runs long - and if you draw this card late in a game, it will have a much weaker effect.

As such, it is a card that isn't over powered, but can be very powerful int he right circumstances if your opponent does not anticipate it in the meta.

I like this card being in the meta because it discourages the '4 of a good card' strategies. How attractive are escalation cards if you expect to see these cards in most decks? Can you afford to limit your deck to a few threats if you know the opponent can rip those threats out of your deck on turn 3? This means more diversity in deck design and a broader experience. I've always had a preference for draft or sealed events because you have an opportunity to see more of a deck.

Tempura
12-03-2013, 06:39 AM
I'm sure its been said but aside from knowing what the opponent has left in his deck and removing all copies - the BROKEN part is that it shows the draw order.

ossuary
12-03-2013, 08:34 AM
Yeah, this REALLY needs to be changed so that 1) it can be countered before you get to see the deck, and 2) the deck is shuffled after you view it (or if you don't want to shuffle the opponent's deck to maintain its current order for balance reasons or whatever, then don't show them in the order they are currently in, show them as a card list instead, in alphabetical order, so the player isn't getting too much information).

Also, I still say spellshield shouldn't be having any effect on this card's use when it's showing you the deck contents.

Valyra
12-03-2013, 11:46 PM
and it should have at least 2 blood treshhold. Otherwise it is splashed to easy with its potential to be the most value Card against slower decks.

JakeFreedom
12-06-2013, 11:43 AM
I mentioned this in another post that this card needs to be worked a little... 3 cost to see the deck of the opponent? I think that is a cheap price to pay. Keep the threshold the same, but make it an X amount card... If you cast it with 5 resources you get to see the first 5 cards in the opponents deck, and so on. It will still target all copies of what you select, but won't give the caster the ability to see the whole deck with out spending a ton of resources. Or having something similar in all shards, not just blood. Blood has some very powerful cards as it stands right now.


Thanks,
JF

Norious
12-09-2013, 03:00 PM
I was going to post the bug about not seing the CoO being casted until it resolves making counterspell useless, as it is still pay 3 reveal your oponent hand and they discard counterspell atm.

Heck u don't even have to cast it. Just click on it and you can see your opponents deck then esc out. At least make it cast first then if it is not countered go through the opponents deck

wasichu
12-10-2013, 04:02 PM
I have seen other post say this card is op etc.
After time of playing with it and against it I do agree it needs some changes.

The closest card that comes to mind in magic was nightmare incursion which was a like 6cc card and you got to void cards from their deck for the number of swamps you had.
The current way Curse of Obliv is for 3cc one black thresh you get to really cripple a deck fast, you get to see the order they will draw their cards. And take out all copies of that card which in most ways is better than a murder or persecute.

My suggestion is that it would let you void cards from their deck equal to your blood threshold. (this way a person would at least have a chance. I have been hit with two of these in a row and worse part is it doesn't reveal what the voided so you cant re-strategize.

Or make it a 3 blood threshold 4 casting cost.

I just don't think as it is now its good for the game. It's a nasty card you love when you use it and hate when its done on you. It just kills alot of creativity to try different decks. When the few cards that make the deck get raped. Then the match is almost pointless.

wutae
12-10-2013, 04:17 PM
just click on the void, and you can see what he voided.

IndigoShade
12-10-2013, 04:26 PM
just click on the void, and you can see what he voided.

While that's true, I agree with everything else he said. :p Sure, it doesn't give you immediate board presence or impact the board state when played. With that in mind, it should be pretty strong. I still think the card is a little too good in it's current form. Even if they changed it to shuffle the deck afterwards so that you don't know your opponents deck order.


Edit: There's already a thread (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=30801) dedicated to this in the strategy and decklists section though, which is where I'm sure this is going to wind up.

ossuary
12-10-2013, 05:16 PM
I'll just point out that Cory said on the stream today (and it's been mentioned several times before) that something was a "placeholder effect." A lot of the stuff that's in the alpha right now is just a "let's get the card into the client" kind of implementation, and isn't anything close to what the final UI for some of these cards will be. I think it's safe to say that in the final version, for example, you won't be able to scroll through the player's entire deck in the exact order that the cards are in. That kind of stuff will get changed over to a cleaner implementation when they have time.

As far as balance discussions go, we should probably continue that in the existing thread that IndigoShade referred to, rather than starting a new one to rehash a subject that was posted to less than 2 days ago.

ArcaneWeapon
12-10-2013, 07:57 PM
As a long time Magic player I was blown away when I saw this card. Forget the void effect, getting to view your opponents deck (IN ORDER) for just 3 cost is insanity. Add to that fact that it only has a threshold of 1 blood, and it becomes ridiculously easy to splash into any deck. Now add in the void effect to take out the strongest counter they have to whatever deck you're using and this card skyrockets above any other currently in the game for usefulness. It's a problem when one card becomes a must include in any deck of that color.

I think it should become a 4 cost card with 2 blood threshold, which still seems very powerful, but at least a bit more balanced. And it HAS to shuffle the opponents deck after you finish gutting it. That's a requirement.

Avaian
12-14-2013, 04:24 PM
I have skimmed through this thread, and it seems the main problem people have with this card is the ability to see the deck, which in my opinion can be a simple UI fix.

I am slightly worried about Curse of Oblivion in its current form, for a different reason that was mentioned a couple times. This card is great against Combo type decks which often depend on specific cards. If you don't have the cards needed for the combo in your hand or in play already, Curse of Oblivion completely dismantles the core of the deck.

Also I can not currently think of a way to counter a turn 3 Curse of Oblivion, with the released cards, if your opponent went first, there may be a way but I can't think of it off the top of my head.

ossuary
12-14-2013, 04:54 PM
Combo decks are always risky... that's inherent in the deck type. They're great if you drop your combo, but terrible if you don't. You can mitigate it slightly by trying to put in multiple win conditions, but ultimately, if you can't risk losing a card at all, you're probably not going to win. There's always someone playing a mill deck, or a discard deck, or a counter deck... some people just love to watch the world burn. :)

Avaian
12-14-2013, 05:52 PM
Combo decks are always risky... that's inherent in the deck type. They're great if you drop your combo, but terrible if you don't. You can mitigate it slightly by trying to put in multiple win conditions, but ultimately, if you can't risk losing a card at all, you're probably not going to win. There's always someone playing a mill deck, or a discard deck, or a counter deck... some people just love to watch the world burn. :)

Combo decks are risky I agree, however there is a major difference between not being able to draw your combo, having part of it countered, milled, or discarded and Curse of oblivion.

With counters, unable to draw, milling, and discarding, Your opponent needs to play more than one card to completely destroy your ability to play the combo (you can always get lucky and draw another copy) or you are having some bad luck. However with Curse of Oblivion, if you don't have the cards in hand or in play, then you lose all possibilities at the combo, that is the problem I see.

If the card was more difficult to play, it wouldn't be as much as a problem, in my opinion.

ossuary
12-14-2013, 08:47 PM
I dunno... there have been variations on "search your opponent's deck and mess shit up for them" in Magic for years... way back in Ice Age we had Jester's Cap. It wasn't exactly difficult to use, either. I grant you it was 4 cost instead of 3 and needed 2 more to activate, but it was also colorless, so you could throw it in any deck and ramp to it.

I freely admit that CoO is better than that specific card. But the point remains, messing with your opponent has always been a valid strategy in this sort of game. Running a deck with a single win condition and not much else going on is a dangerous gambit. That's why I've always preferred lots of mini-combos and strong synergy to a straight up "if I draw these 2 cards, I win, otherwise I'm boned" kind of combo, personally. :)