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Jugan
12-06-2013, 12:09 AM
Wondering what everyone thought about the card "Crash of Beasts". Personally, I feel this card is ridiculously strong. Since a 3/3 is strong in its own right, given the current cards that are out, the fact that it has trample and escalation is pretty crazy. Coupled with the fact that green has "Howling Brave", playing Crash of Beasts on turn 2 can be back-breaking for people sitting on the receiving end of it.

I can't really think of a scenario where the following sequence doesn't cause an overwhelming advantage against anything except "Extinction".
Turn 1: Howling Brave
Turn 2: Crash of Beasts
Turn 3: Crash of Beasts

On the play, that draw is nearly unbeatable. While I realize it's not good design to balance around a singular sequence of cards, I think playing two Crash of Beasts within the first 5 turns is still an incredibly large advantage that doesn't have a lot of answers to at this point in the game.

Furthermore, I think its important to note that Escalation is a uniquely different modifier to this card than say to another card, such as Ragefire, because it gives you permanent, tangible results that directly impact the board state. Conversely, a card like Ragefire can only target a single player, and more often than not, does not have as tangible an impact on the board than Crash of Beasts does. Finally, Crash of Beasts can see as a "proactive" measure, where a card like Ragefire is mostly a "reactive" measure.

I'd propose its cost being raised to a total of 4 (up from 3), but was wondering what other people think of the card itself and their experiences with it.

Unhurtable
12-06-2013, 03:42 AM
It is definitely a very strong card. Since the creatures are 3/3, you can't just wipe them with a Heatwave as you can with lets say a turn 2-3 2nd Raptor. Considering this is a 3-cost card, you would naturally be able to get it out the same turn as things like Murder or Ragefire + Burn or Countermagic, but once again I think the bigger "problem" of the scenario you are describing is the Howling Brave, which is much easier to focus down (with a simple Burn or Ragefire depending on what player went first). The Crash of Beasts is managable at turn 3 and on, but becomes a huge problem if the Howling Brave is played and gets to live :)

joseph5185
12-06-2013, 03:46 AM
You bring up very valid points.

Also, being that the defense is a 3 cards like Ragefire, Burn, and even Heat Wave won't destroy it individually (unless of course Ragefire was somehow already escalated.)

Also, you throw in Wild Root Dancer and things can start to get out of hand. Not to mention Wild Growth which is a 1 drop. I haven't seen a lot of people who feel wild is strong enough on it's own, but idk...

Interested to see where this goes.

Eierdotter
12-06-2013, 04:30 AM
in my opinion the card is perfectly fine.
3 cost for a 3/3 crush is on curve. (for example you get a common 3/2 crush for 2 resources)

i am honest, i do nto play this card very often, since the troop has no "awesome" effect like a root dancer, or a roostasaur. a 3/3 crush is just a beater, nevermind i should use it more often.

if the rhino would be nerfed to 3/2 crush, i am pretty confident, that it will be just half as good, and therefor see very rare play.
increasing the cost to 4 would not hurt that much, but it is not really necessary.

bofedy
12-06-2013, 05:33 AM
Ruby
turn 1 burn brave
turn 2 ragefire brave
turn 3 heatwave and burn

blood
turn 1 sorrow brave
turn 2 perscute beave
turn 3 murder rhino
turn 4 extinction

its not a problem do you want me to do other shards???

ofc if you let your opponent have 3 turns to do what they like with the cards they want they will be good want me to do my first 3 turns with any shard if i get to pick what i want you will call any of them Crazy good

ossuary
12-06-2013, 05:55 AM
Rule 1 for playing against a green deck: ALWAYS kill the llanowar elf. :)

Jugan
12-06-2013, 10:56 AM
Ruby
turn 1 burn brave
turn 2 ragefire brave
turn 3 heatwave and burn

blood
turn 1 sorrow brave
turn 2 perscute beave
turn 3 murder rhino
turn 4 extinction

its not a problem do you want me to do other shards???

ofc if you let your opponent have 3 turns to do what they like with the cards they want they will be good want me to do my first 3 turns with any shard if i get to pick what i want you will call any of them Crazy good

I can't tell if you're trolling or not. What kind of answers can you realistically have against 3x 3/3 trampler on turn 3? Or on turn 4?

Entityofsin
12-06-2013, 11:18 AM
He listed some of them. A lot of them are also realistic answers to a 2nd Crash of Beasts play. You can also block with troops and decrease the damage. Looking for something that can take care of all the Rhinos at once and is a hard counter isn't realistic outside of Judgment (6 cost semi-board clear) and Extinction (4 cost semi-board clear).

It's a good card, yes. It isn't over powered at all though. Stuff like this will be in the game. It's fine the way it is. Though Wild is the strongest shard by far in the Alpha.

JakeFreedom
12-06-2013, 11:53 AM
Ruby
turn 1 burn brave
turn 2 ragefire brave
turn 3 heatwave and burn

blood
turn 1 sorrow brave
turn 2 perscute beave
turn 3 murder rhino
turn 4 extinction

its not a problem do you want me to do other shards???

ofc if you let your opponent have 3 turns to do what they like with the cards they want they will be good want me to do my first 3 turns with any shard if i get to pick what i want you will call any of them Crazy good


Most situations have an answer, this I will give you. It's if you have that answer when the situation comes ups is the key.

Thanks,
JF

Dadalos
12-06-2013, 12:24 PM
It's a good card, yes. It isn't over powered at all though. Stuff like this will be in the game. It's fine the way it is. Though Wild is the strongest shard by far in the Alpha.

I have to agree while the ideal draws (brave + crash + no mana screw) followed by more crashes is a formidable challenge one thing to consider is that by itself wild has no significant draw factor and getting the crash in the first place out of 60 cards (even with 4 copies in the deck) can take a significant time. dropping the rhinos to 3/2 wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least but to be fair i dont see it as being needed. they simply can be over powered by other decks troop force provided that they are beyond turn 4. the situation of drawing 2 or more crashes while possible are so low that when it dose happen to you youve just got to grin and curse the draw gods and move on. (or be holding the board wipe card in hand XD ) im just thankful that the rhinos are still locked into 1 card and cant binifit from things like spirit dance unlike the pack raptors or other such deck combos.

so far as wild being the strongest? ehhh im not seeing it. each deck has its strengths and the 'strongest' would have to dominate all others (and possible any combination of shards). white has massive healing and strong retaliation with spell-actions. blue has great draw poer and field control. blood makes deals with the devil and sometimes uses the enemy as sacrifices XD. red rushes out the pain in waves that only shinhare can answer but being wild they can 'grow' into an unmanageable army... and to cover all bases even the artifacts can have a massive presence impact when you consider that many of them have abilitys no other mono shard has access to.

Entityofsin
12-06-2013, 12:41 PM
I should have been more clear. Wild is the strongest in terms of how easy it is to pump up troop stats. I guess I was extremely misleading with how I originally worded it. But yeah, over all or in general Wild isn't necessary any more powerful than the rest of the shard colors.

I did just get done playing a game with my Diamond/Wild deck and opened with 2 Wild Shard and 1 Diamond and 3 Crash of Beast. I drew into 2 Root Dancer and more resources. The guy I played died rather quickly. Situations like that happen and it's hilarious if you do it and it appears incredibly over powered when used against you.

Again, a good card. Just not over powered. It's a decent card to use by itself even if it only serves to give you a 3/3 blocker. That's still a decent troop to have as a blocker.

BlackRoger
12-11-2013, 01:28 PM
The thing is, the only deck that gets really screwed from a second + third turn crash of beasts is aggro, and when an aggro deck plays against a green mid-range ramp deck the mid-range is gonna usualy win crash or no crash.
So I don't think like this play breakes the meta.
Other mid-range will still have stall options and big blockers, control has board wipe.

Its still a strong play, but curving out perfectly is a strong play for any deck.
p.s. I'm in the camp of those who think the real problem is the root dancer and having no way to burn/kill it until after the buff.

ossuary
12-11-2013, 03:56 PM
We would, if they would put triggers back on the stack. :)

Entityofsin
12-11-2013, 08:57 PM
Triggers shouldn't have left the stack anyways. If we have priority passes for just about everything else, why not for triggers as well?

It seems pretty silly. And there's a lot of gameplay reasons why that shouldn't have to be illustrated why it needs to be on stack.

BlackRoger
12-11-2013, 11:48 PM
I dont know if triggers on the stack would solve this. remmember that even if we respond to the trigger the buff will still resolve

ossuary
12-12-2013, 06:00 AM
I dont know if triggers on the stack would solve this. remmember that even if we respond to the trigger the buff will still resolve

Not if you respond to the trigger by killing the target. :)

Before, you could. Now, the buff just happens and it's too late.

HyenaNipples
12-12-2013, 06:35 AM
I wouldn't say Crash of Beasts is OP, but I would say it is indeed very strong.

However, since it is apart of the base set Escalation cycle:
Eternal Youth
Ragefire
Chronic Madness
Endless Corruption

The observation that the permanence of its effect sets it apart from its fellows is interesting.

Perhaps if we added in a second beast instead of just Rhinos, and these beasts are of a more fragile nature?

Crash of Beasts #1: Place a 3/3 Rhino and put it into play.
Crash of Beasts #2: Place a 3/3 Rhino, and a 2/2 Zebra into play.
Crash of Beasts #3: Place a 3/3 Rhino, and two 2/2 Zebras into play.

Zebra - 2
W
Troop - Animal
2/2
Crush.
After this troop deals or takes damage, void it.

ossuary
12-12-2013, 06:59 AM
... no? :)

Wild = big, crushing creatures. Crash of Beasts is perfectly in line with this.

HyenaNipples
12-12-2013, 07:17 AM
Wild is also small, swarmy creatures ala' Shin'Hare.

This silly idea for a different Crash of Beasts is now in line with both sides.

Entityofsin
12-12-2013, 07:59 AM
Gonna have to say no on this as well. Whether it's a 3/3 or 2/2 with or without Crush isn't really that big of a deal. The card is fine the way it is. Also, it's a rare. So the way it is right now is perfectly fine.

It doesn't need to be changed to universally fit the idea of swarming the field with troops that are small to large. 3/3 with Crush is fine.

IndigoShade
12-12-2013, 09:47 AM
How about instead of zebras make it a couple of deer running away from the rhino?

mudkip
12-12-2013, 10:17 PM
How about instead of zebras make it a couple of deer running away from the rhino?

That reminds me, I kind of wish the beasts were from a random pool. All rhinos is a bit boring.

ossuary
12-13-2013, 08:48 AM
That would make a nice different card. How about a 7 cost 3 wild quick action called "Stampede," to play 3 random creatures from a possible list: 4/4 Gorilla, 3/3 Rhino with crush, 2/1 Zebra with lifegain, and 1/1 Serpent with swiftstrike.

escapeRoute
12-14-2013, 10:50 AM
That would make a nice different card. How about a 7 cost 3 wild quick action called "Stampede," to play 3 random creatures from a possible list: 4/4 Gorilla, 3/3 Rhino with crush, 2/1 Zebra with lifegain, and 1/1 Serpent with swiftstrike.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

too hearthstone...

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

not in pvp at least.. for a pve set i would quite enjoy the effect of such a card

it would be slightly different in my mind if it was "cast x creatures whith y attack and z life where the total number of the y+z will be 10 divided among x random creatures"

so u could end up two 5/5
four 1/2 2/1 1/1 1/1
one 10/10

and so on

still random, but u would have a certain number to rely on thus making it less of a gamble

IndigoShade
12-14-2013, 02:03 PM
This sort of goes back to a statement Cory made in the Gamespot interview a few days ago about being careful about what random effects they implement into the game. He was referring to how Inspiration Engine was okay, but critical damage wasn't. I guess they have a line drawn in the sand somewhere as far as how much randomization is acceptable and I guess how much of an impact they're comfortable with random effects having.

mudkip
12-14-2013, 03:37 PM
That would make a nice different card. How about a 7 cost 3 wild quick action called "Stampede," to play 3 random creatures from a possible list: 4/4 Gorilla, 3/3 Rhino with crush, 2/1 Zebra with lifegain, and 1/1 Serpent with swiftstrike.

Nah, I meant more aestetically. 3/3 Crush creatures is cool, but something more than rhino's would be more fun. It's "Crash of Beasts" not "Crash of Rhinos"

HyenaNipples
12-15-2013, 09:23 PM
Yeah. just different art would be pretty cool, but they would all still be 3/3s with Crush.

VeScorp
12-16-2013, 02:17 AM
Yeah. just different art would be pretty cool, but they would all still be 3/3s with Crush.

I'd say that would be another way of utilizing the double back - having a few achievements on CoB, each granting you a chance for each rhino to be replaced by another animal with another artwork (keeping that 3/3 crush)

ossuary
12-16-2013, 05:06 AM
The only problem with that is that I'm pretty sure there will be other cards that also produce Rhinos, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see cards that interact with or buff them in the near future, too. So having CoB produce something other than Rhinos would defeat the purpose. :)

Incidentally, does the extended art for Rhinos or CoB show deer running away? I certainly hope so... ;)

VeScorp
12-16-2013, 05:52 AM
The only problem with that is that I'm pretty sure there will be other cards that also produce Rhinos, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see cards that interact with or buff them in the near future, too. So having CoB produce something other than Rhinos would defeat the purpose. :)

Incidentally, does the extended art for Rhinos or CoB show deer running away? I certainly hope so... ;)

There already is the gem, used it with inquis and wild aura :D

BenRGamer
12-16-2013, 08:01 AM
To be honest, I wouldn't expect them to change that--it'd cost money for the extra art for little to no gain.

LeMazing
12-16-2013, 02:08 PM
To be honest, I wouldn't expect them to change that--it'd cost money for the extra art for little to no gain. Actually it wouldn't cost them anything. If you look at the art on Crash of Beasts, it features hippos and elephants as well. All they'd have to do is zoom in on a different part of the full artwork and have CoB randomly choose one of the 3 animals to create.

Purely aesthetic, but it would be fun.

Neodeadalus
12-18-2013, 09:46 AM
Now that would be amazing and give the card some appeal to it visually, and make it more fun to have the whole jungle attacking then a pack of Rhinos....